Anyone playing a 4-4-2 formation on FM?

Reading back through this thread on the tactics forum - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/215321-Is-the-4-4-2-outmoded-or-even-becoming-obsolete - I was inspired to start this thread.

When I look through the tactics forum these days, I see a plethora of 4-3-3s, 4-5-1s, 4-2-3-1s and 4-3-1-2s/diamonds but the 4-4-2 doesn't seem to be of much interest! So I thought I would start a general discussion thread about playing the 4-4-2 formation.

So, is anyone sticking with the 4-4-2 formation on Football Manager? Do you feel it is outdated on FM11 or does the classic formation still work for you? What success stories do we have for the good old 4-4-2! Please share.

Btw, some who are playing 4-4-2 might be interested in this thread on the tactics forum - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/250951-FM-11-Tactical-Challenge-How-far-can-you-go-with-the-classic-4-4-2

I don't like "wingers" and struggle to do well without a DMC so I've always played a narrow 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-2-1-2 on the last few versions.

For some reason, I've personally got a real kick out of playing with the 4-4-2 again after a long time playing lone striker formations. I guess I really enjoyed returning to using two strikers up front and the more attacking feel of the tactic at times.

I've won pretty much everything with my 4-4-2 on my FM10 save and also managed an unbeaten season domestically (in fact, the only game I lost all season was the Champions League final against Barcelona!)

I also played a few seasons in Italy with 4-4-2 lately and did pretty well against the various 4-2-3-1s and 4-3-1-2s that I came across. So I think there is life in this formation yet on FM!

Had an unbeaten season in all comps on FM10 with 4-4-2! Very simple, fullbacks on auto, centrebacks on defend, wingers on attack with long-shots to "rarely", central midfielders on support and defend, one advanced forward on attack, one deep-lying forward on support with forward runs set as "mixed" (IIRC - might have been "often"). I did sometimes switch to a 4-2-4-ish, where the wingers went to the AMR/L slots. I found having the wingers swapping over with each other was highly effective as well.

No such success on FM11 though, definitely prefer the versatility of 4-2-3-1. With one or two positional/role changes you can adapt it to pretty much any formation the opposition come at you with, which I don't find is the case with 4-4-2.

I play a 4-4-2 diamond. I always need a DM and an AM, I'm lost without them.

My problem with 4-4-2 in the new tactics engine is that the central midfielders can be a defensive liability if you're the underdog. You can't play it against more offensive teams because you'll be outnumbered at the back when the opposition sends their midfielders forward. Previously, I'd drop the MC(s) back to DM on the defensive, but this is no longer possible; you need to have the DM play there the whole time.

You can find other ways of getting MCs to defend better, such as specific marking, but they all have big downsides too. If there's any effective means of getting central midfielders to properly drop back on the defensive, I'd love to know. Even with tight man marking and low closing down, they're very half-hearted about it; and a high defensive line would be suicide with my defenders.

Against lesser teams or more defensive teams, I find the flat 4-4-2 isn't a bad option, especially when you're looking to get crosses into the box. I don't think it's outdated; not like, say, the 3-5-2.

I'm using a 4-4-2 with RasenBallsport Leipzig in the Regionalliga Nord, and we are currently top, and I've only added a couple of players to what was already a good squad. I usually use a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1, but the quality of the strikers here made me think twice as there are too many good ones to use a lone striker.

Reading back through this thread on the tactics forum - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/215321-Is-the-4-4-2-outmoded-or-even-becoming-obsolete - I was inspired to start this thread.

When I look through the tactics forum these days, I see a plethora of 4-3-3s, 4-5-1s, 4-2-3-1s and 4-3-1-2s/diamonds but the 4-4-2 doesn't seem to be of much interest! So I thought I would start a general discussion thread about playing the 4-4-2 formation.

So, is anyone sticking with the 4-4-2 formation on Football Manager? Do you feel it is outdated on FM11 or does the classic formation still work for you? What success stories do we have for the good old 4-4-2! Please share.

playing a 4-4-2 with united to frankly devastating effects. i also have a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-2-3-1 deep, but the 4-4-2 is the best of the lot

In contrast to many forum users this is the first FM in years where I haven't played a 4-4-2 system. For a start im playing Ajax who don't have players suited to that, and secondly I fancied a change. I now use either 4-1-4-1 or 4-1-2-3 against bad teams. I find its a much more versatile set up (4-1-4-1) cause the 2 wide wingers can act as conventional wing men or extra forwards depending on how the games going.

With 4-4-2 unless you have a quality team its to rigid imho. I usually play Chelsea so getting 4-4-2 to work is no problem, but when you have players who aren't all round good at everything its tought to build a combatitive flat 4 midfield. Of course using instructions you can get say one CM playing deeper, but unless hes pretty good he will often be caught out or spend half the game running about like a headless chicken, sitting him in a proper DM role is just more reliable.

But no its definately not dead, in fact I lost last years Europa cup final to Juve who played a traditional 4-4-2, it worked cause they have good all round players. My wingers while great at dribbling and attacking are total pants when tracking back and that a big part to using 442 successfully, if you have good solid wide men who can attack and defend its a good formation.

I've taken Luton on successive promotions to the Premiership, survived then won a top half place and League Cup so far on the back of 4-4-2, with the odd 4-5-1 to defend a lead later on in the game. Flat back 4, flat 4 man midfield, 2 strikers. Nothing fancy, just a solid formation and players who suit it.

I like the 4-4-2 formation but dont really use it because my players always seem to play better in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.

I'm playing with a rather substantial deal of success as Stoke City with a 4-4-2. First two seasons spent tweaking it I finished 10th each year, scoring roughly as many as I was conceding. In the third year I was able to finish 4th and currently in the 4th year with further tweaks I'm sat second. It took time watching what defensive line worked right and what attacking notch worked right, the main problem was either defence and midfield being too compressed or being too far apart. Having the strikers swap positions with one slightly more withdrawn than the other facilitates a lot of pulling defenders out of position and utilising their pace to great effect.

Garra Dembele, Christian Benitez & Diego Tardelli have had great success in this formation for me, it is quite similar to my 4-4-2 from FM09 which saw Keirrison get 2000 goals, when 4-4-2 works it just works and can be so much more well rounded than any other formation I think. Finding the right players to make it work is a challenge though, my line up is:

GK: Ochoa

RB: Charles Kabore

CB: Ryan Shawcross

CB: Robert Huth/Vedran Corluka

LB: Abdel El Kaoutari/Mark Wilson

RM: Jermaine Pennant/Alex Chamberlain

CM: Axel Witsel/Jano

CM: Mohammad Sissoko/Alexandre Coeff

LM: Rene Mihelic/Thiago Neves

ST: Christian Benitez/Connor Wickham

ST: Nassim Ben Kahlifa/Dries Mertens

No real world class players, (Tardelli & Dembele have moved on, Krankjar also) and with competent but unspectacular players and quite a few shoehorned into unnatural positions (only Shawcross, Witsel & the forwards are in natural postions except Mertens he's an AMC naturally) it works well. It's a constant process tweaking and getting it more and more right but the development of it so far has come along nicely.

i play the classic 4-4-2. im everton and in 2029. i have won everything. if i knew how to put pictures up i would to show you. i play with 2 'wingers' and 2 box to box midfielders

I've been playing 4-4-2 (with AMR/AML) with Chelsea because Schelotto was too good to waste him as FB/WB or to be benched... So I recycled Christian Eriksen as AML and it's been working just fine.

Sure it's not the traditional "flat" 4-4-2 but it's a 4-4-2 nonetheless.

I was getting tired of the almighty 4-2-3-1, and as years go by it gets complicated finding/developing suitable players for the AMC role, while pacey players get more and more common (despite their unbalanced attributes), so reverting to wide play it's a logical choice.

i play the classic 4-4-2. im everton and in 2029. i have won everything. if i knew how to put pictures up i would to show you. i play with 2 'wingers' and 2 box to box midfielders

Check out the image posting tutorial here - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/92967-READ-ME-FIRST-PC-Mac-General-Discussion-Rules-Guidelines-Image-Posting-Tutorial

I used 4-4-2 on FM10, but that was because it just happened to fit the club best. On FM11, the two saves I've ran have been Middlesbrough (who only had one winger, but bucketloads of quality central midfielders) and Central Coast Mariners (who have natural attacking wide men, a player perfect in the trequartista role, and only one good striker).

I tend to see what fits the team best when I take over, and more often than not, it is something very similar that I'll stick with. I do feel though that deviating from a traditional 4-4-2 can give you something of an advantage over the AI if that is the formation you come up against most often.

Apart from a x tree formation in FM08, I use a flat 442 for long term games.

I've often tried to use 4-2-3-1 on FM11, because I like using an AM, but I've never been able to make any formation return the success of 4-3-3, with a DM. In fact I'm surprised to see anyone not using a DM such, I believed, was it's importance on FM11.

To those playing 4-4-2, don't you find the AI exploiting your midfield 4 by playing a Sneijder or a Kaka type behind them? Or does everyone play at least one of the 4 as a DM? In which case why not play a 3 with 1 in a dedicated defensive position?

when 4-4-2 works it just works and can be so much more well rounded than any other formation I think.

I would tend to agree. I'm of the opinion that you can get any playing system to work on Football Manager, within reason anyway. But, the 4-4-2 seems to produce some of the best football, in my experience, and I seem to more reliably hit the back of the net with the 4-4-2.

I was getting tired of the almighty 4-2-3-1, and as years go by it gets complicated finding/developing suitable players for the AMC role.

Take it the 'almighty 4-2-3-1' you speak of is the 4-2-3-1 with two CMs and three AMCs? I guess that takes a lot of retraining of players in the end?

That's the nice thing about the 4-4-2 actually. You can easily fit players into the system, pretty much, without any real bother.

I've often tried to use 4-2-3-1 on FM11, because I like using an AM, but I've never been able to make any formation return the success of 4-3-3, with a DM. In fact I'm surprised to see anyone not using a DM such, I believed, was it's importance on FM11.

To those playing 4-4-2, don't you find the AI exploiting your midfield 4 by playing a Sneijder or a Kaka type behind them? Or does everyone play at least one of the 4 as a DM? In which case why not play a 3 with 1 in a dedicated defensive position?

Nope, My Mcd competes well against AMCs. I very rarely deploy a DM and when i do i deploy 2 in a 4-2-3-1 deep, usually against italian sides who pack the middle with the narrow 4-2-3-1

I would tend to agree. I'm of the opinion that you can get any playing system to work on Football Manager, within reason anyway. But, the 4-4-2 seems to produce some of the best football, in my experience, and I seem to more reliably hit the back of the net with the 4-4-2.

Take it the 'almighty 4-2-3-1' you speak of is the 4-2-3-1 with two CMs and three AMCs? I guess that takes a lot of retraining of players in the end?

That's the nice thing about the 4-4-2 actually. You can easily fit players into the system, pretty much, without any real bother.

Some of the best football ive ever created has come from playing 4-4-2, i create sweeping moves that i just cant replicate as well in other formations

Going off at a bit of a tangent, but I thought I would mention it here anyway, I just came across an interesting thread here recommending a treq and a poacher together in the 4-4-2, which I've never tried out before - http://www.sortitoutsi.net/forum/topic/47782-tapc/ - sounds interesting!

Anyone tried this before?

Some of the best football ive ever created has come from playing 4-4-2, i create sweeping moves that i just cant replicate as well in other formations

I agree and it puts me off narrow formations (which can look one dimensional in comparison) and lone striker formations (which I don't think create some of the same sense of 'magic' up front).

I'm playing 4-4-2...

GK: Default

DR: Full Back, defend

DL: Full back, defend

DC's: Centre Defender, defend

MR/L: Wide Mid, Support

MC: Centre Mid, Defend

MC: Centre Mid/DLP, Support

ST: Target man, Attack

ST: Poacher, Attack

I'm trying to win La Liga with it.

ive always made my own formations since fm was a series, ive had success with formations with 4 forwards, 5 defenders, 5 midfield whatever.

this year i went for an adaption of barcas 4-3-3 while it worked(and still does) it wasnt consistent enough for my liking so i decided to go for a flat 4-4-2 and set it up as a direct counter attacking style of play. its brought me great success in both the german league and the league of ireland so two very contrasting standards of team and league

442 is by far my favorite starting formation but i also have a 4231 formation for trying to hold onto a result and a 4222 formation for trying to get a result. Ive got Tonbridge Angels from Ryman Prem to the Prem in 9 or 10 years using it so i cant be bad.

Going off at a bit of a tangent, but I thought I would mention it here anyway, I just came across an interesting thread here recommending a treq and a poacher together in the 4-4-2, which I've never tried out before - http://www.sortitoutsi.net/forum/topic/47782-tapc/ - sounds interesting!

Anyone tried this before?

Not tried this before no, but I play with a Poacher (Neymar) and Complete Forward (Torres) on my Liverpool save in a 4-4-2 with attacking wingers, a box to box midfielder and a defence minded midfielder to pretty devastating effects.

I pretty much always play with a 4-4-2 although ocassionally flirt with a 4-5-1.

However its with the 4-4-2 I have the most success - I'm currently holding my own with Annelunds IF in the Swedish 2nd tier, after back to back promotions from the 4th.

I absolutely love pacey wingers and a little man/big man combo hence why I stick to a 4-4-2.

Roles tend to be:

GK: Keeper/Defend

FB: Full Back/Defend

FB: Full Back/Defend

CB: Central Defender/Cover

CB: Central Defender/Stopper

ML: Winger/Attack

MR: Winger/Attack

MC: Ball Winning Midfielder/Defend

MC: Advanced Playmaker/Support

ST: Target Man/Support

ST: Poacher/Attack

With the right players, it's a very well balanced formation.

Here it is:

Can't stand the "new" tactics set-up, so classic all the way!

Both strikers are set to run with the ball frequently, one full-out attacking and the other "normal" mentality. Swap positions with each other. Rarely try long shots, crosses or through-balls.

Wingers play a simple game with mixed crosses and rare through-balls. Sometimes run from deep and run with the ball, rarely try long shots.

One defensive-minded midfielder, the other is more balanced. Have found a barrowing MC to be more effective than an outright DM. Defensive one is set to rarely for everything, balanced is sometimes (except for crossing- rarely.)

Defenders are D-oriented. No attacking fullbacks for me- tight, man marking across the back.

Playing a possession-oriented game that's slightly up-tempo (one notch below quick.) Easy tackling (lowest yellows/reds in the league all 4 seasons.) Rest is all normal with mixed focus passing. No target men or playmakers. Look for the counter attack.

Official stats as manager: 249 games played, 565 goals scored, 210 allowed, 169W, 49D, 31L.

I play a flat 4-4-2 in a game with Carlisle. Won promotion to Championship in the first season, and now leading the Championship in November/December.

It is quite like my 4-2-4 tactic except I chose a flat midfield because I wanted different player types than I usually get for my 4-2-4 tactic - in particular more creative midfielders. It is supplemented with a more defensive, counter-attacking version of the same formation and the good old 5-4-1 tactic I always carry around in my saves. It is also adapted to a quicker, more direct style because Carlisle isn't the best side around...

If anyone is interested, here are the three tactics:

The standard, attacking 442

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20345765/4_4_2_Balance_v2__Carlisle__Apr_2011__tac

The defensive, counter-attacking 442

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20345766/4_4_2_Defense__Carlisle__Aug_2011__tac

The ultradefensive 5-4-1

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20345768/5_4_1_ultradefensive_Carlisle__Carlisle__Aug_2010__tac

I may create a new thread in the tactics forum if the interest in a working 442 is large.

Many other formations rely on almost being able to swarm the opposition out of possession. 4-3-3's before 5-0-5 usually when defending or attacking, same with 4-5-1's (as a vague overall including the likes of 4-2-3-1 etc) and it can be effective but with 4-4-2 you just see out and out wide men either beating their men and putting a cross in or cutting inside and providing an incisive pass. Jermaine Pennant even at 31 is just fantastic at right mid, and has been out performing Frank Ribery at Man City who is playing a similar position in a 4-5-1. Of course there is other factors to consider (mental attributes and form) but when looking at the direct contribution of a player Pennant isn't the greatest right winger in the world yet he's one of the best performing at least in the premiership.

Some part is also down to my management of the teams fitness, the training schedules and morale, goals typically coming in the last 10 - 20 minutes. From lossing or drawing positions I've managed wins against AC Milan, Everton, Blackburn and Tottenham in my last few games (last 10 games only 4 where its been needed) where this has been the case.

With the MR/ML, is it also a case of attacking from a deeper position? Do you think that makes a difference?

Quite an impressive record you've got at 'coming back' against some good sides there.

Do you think you can make Stoke a top side now with your 4-4-2? You sound like you're on the verge of it. Will you stick with 4-4-2 in the Champions League?

I may create a new thread in the tactics forum if the interest in a working 442 is large.

Do it BiggusD. I'd be interested!

I normally play a 4-2-3-1 and have had much success. In the wake of my team being relegated from the Premier I decided to start a new game with West Ham. I planned to carry with my 4-2-3-1 but found my self using a 4-4-2 from the first league game and have not changed. I got some good success with it.

http://img831.imageshack.us/i/westhamformation.png/

http://img4.imageshack.us/i/westhamtable.png/

http://img852.imageshack.us/i/westhamfix.png/

With the MR/ML, is it also a case of attacking from a deeper position? Do you think that makes a difference?

Quite an impressive record you've got at 'coming back' against some good sides there.

Do you think you can make Stoke a top side now with your 4-4-2? You sound like you're on the verge of it. Will you stick with 4-4-2 in the Champions League?

I'm now into March, 3rd on 66 points, 2nd place Tottenham on 66 and Chelsea are in first with 70 points. I've just knocked AC Milan out of the champions league. The wingers have to be fit it is possibly the most demanding position in my side. The two CM's are naturally more deeper sitting but when defending the whole team comes back to form two banks of 4 making it difficult for opponents. At the same time the wingers are the creative outlet and forward momentum for the team. The fullbacks do join in but only from a deep position so they're around in the opponents half if needed but not bombing forward with abandon. It is more defensively sound now than it was at the beginning of the season, after a 5-3 loss to Barcelona I realised numerous mistakes I was making against better teams (mainly because inside 20 minutes Barca were 4 up) and the changes from them saw the away game finish 1-1. For a while this season I have been reduced to just one striker and only had cover for one of the wings until January with the added depth now it has seen the side become much more prominent.

47 Matches Played

98 Goals Scored (2.1)

58 Conceded (1.2)

It's not as solid as I would like yet, 27 were conceded in the first 7/8 weeks of the season (Played Barca on 23/10) and in the previous 4 and a half months only 31 have gone in so its definitely tightening up.

Sounds good to me!

Do you do anything to cope with meeting different formations or do you just stick with your settings throughout?

The problem comes in getting the right balance of players to be able to effectively employ a 4-4-2. How many teams around now truly have the players to employ a 4-4-2 from the start? I imagine there aren't too many, which is possibly a reason why many don't use it.

I'm playing through a save with Fiorentina. I'm currently in the second season. While the striker options are effectively limited to choosing between Gilardino and Babacar, they have a huge amount of good quality midfielders. Vargas, Montolivo, Ljajic, Behrami, Donadel, D'Agostino, Jovetic, Agyei, Cerci, Marchionni, Santana and Mutu. That pretty much lead me to using a 4-2-3-1 with Wingers.

As my squad moves forward, and some of these players will leave, I'm sure there will come a time when playing a 4-2-3-1 just no longer becomes logical. Unless I plan hard for the future every step of the way, scouting young players to specifically train and employ in these roles and positions. I have 2 good young strikers at the moment, which it is entirely possible that I will want to play both of them at the same time. That will force me into a tactical change, which could easily see me change to a traditional 4-4-2, if the players I have will fit into this plan.

I have to say though, the 4-2-3-1 is working well for me at the moment. Vargas picked up 28 assists in 33 games in Season 1. A full 12 assists ahead of 2nd place.

I'd be fully interested to see just how many are successfully using a 4-4-2 though...

I always play 4-4-2, with one advanced forward and one target man, two central midfielders one on defend on on attack and two wide midfeilders both on attack. I also play with overlapping full backs. If a club isn't suited to that i'll play 5-3-2, with a sweeper, but only very rarely. The best club i've found for 4-4-2, is Norwich! Second season in the championship (2011/12) I took over after they came 17th and went unbeaten for 18 games. Admittedly 9 of them were draws, but still. Ended up in the play-offs and beat Wigan 1-0, thanks to my target man!

The main thing is to establish what kind of player it needs. Dries Mertens & Christian Benitez have a lot of guile, move about a lot. Against a team not well organised or playing 3 at the back can be easily pulled apart by the two men drifting in and out as well as running at players. On the other hand Connor Wickham & Khalifa are more physical not in an aerial sense but more through the middle players, quite quick but just able to hold defenders off. The defenders remain the same always where possible but it is a case of judging who is fittest and who has the right toolset so to speak to go at the opposition. Strong full backs then Thiago Neves is far more likely to be successful on a flank than Mihelic or Pennant who are much lighter weight players and likely to be bullied off the ball.

Yeah I played it with Rangers and it actually worked quite well in the Champions League as well. Got to the Quarters in my 3rd season. Control at home and counter away.

I play 4-4-2 with split strikers always - one dropping and one playing a poacher.

The midfield four play according to the opponent but still in a 4.

Attacking wingers , supporting midfielder and deep-lying playmaker for a team I am heavily favourite for.

Wide-midfielders on support for away games with close odds.

For games where the other team is a heavy favourite and especially when I am away two def cm and two wide mid on support.

Mentality always on attack and balanced.

I'm playing a flat 4-3-3 at the moment on FM10 and what's annoying me slightly is the lack of lateral coverage in the midfield. Four players just perfectly covers the space from flank to flank, which you don't get in a three man midfield. My midfield ends up getting dragged all over the shop and the full backs find themselves isolated all too often.

I am tempted to move towards a 4-4-2; i inherited a squad which only had MC's and ST's, so it was simplest to go 4-3-3, a necessity really. Would be interesting to try a 4-4-2 with inverted wide players, or at least having them cut inside or make inside runs, a bit like Arsenal had with Pires and Ljungberg.

I play with it a lot, especially when I play in the Scottish leagues as I tend to do the most as I usually play as the team I support (Greenock Morton). In FM10 I left Morton when I won the domestic treble. That took me a few seasons and I had spent a bit of money on my team by then (my 4.4m striker was the key) but I reckon my 442 setup was certainly important.

In FM11 I'm also playing 442, this time on an amended Scottish database long-term save, and my team is progressing nicely.

I like to make my 442 a little lop-sided / assymetric, creating a nice balance between attacking and defending role, and also a combination of changing roles to suit players, or specifically buying players to suit positions/roles.

For example, my midfield roles tend to go SUP - ATT - DEF - ATT with my fwds SUP - ATT, so they contrast with the midfield. At the moment in the SUP fwd role (Deep lying fwd) I have essentially a left winger playing there and as his tendency is to drift to the left I've noticed a lot of combination play between him, my ATT central midfielder, and my SUP left mid. If I remember I will post a pic of the passing chalkboard from my last game as it really highlights how that combination dominated my possession.

i'm playing. more than 60 games unbeaten run .. 3 consecutive CL wins

i mainly play 4-4-2, with a deep-lying striker who mainly acts as a workhorse, a poacher who moves out to the left wing a lot, a right-footed left winger who overlaps inside him and a very attacking right-winger who runs inside the fullback and gets into the box a lot. It makes for some lovely football.

The only real weakness is when the opposition play an AMC behind two strikers, I tend to drop my MCd back to DM in those situations if I'm not actively chasing goals.

i'm playing. more than 60 games unbeaten run .. 3 consecutive CL wins

Very impressive. Who are you managing?

Personally always play a version of 4-4-2 in FM, have one poacher and a target-man when I can. Keep it fairly simplistic and have managed to get Pro Vercelli from Serie C2 to a mid-table Serie A side.

Sounds good to me.

Do you ever struggle when coming up against other formations? Italy seems to be full of 4-3-1-2s whenever I play there, which makes it a challenge to play with the 4-4-2!