FM 11 Tactical Challenge - How far can you go with the classic 4-4-2?

This challenge came up last year after being inspired by causeforconcern's formations thread. Hopefully there will be some interest again to see how far we can take the 4-4-2 formation!

The 4-4-2 formation is still the most popular formation in English football and most of the World too. It is by far the most popular formation choice in England (from the top flight right down the entire league system) and it is actually the second most popular choice in the top flight leagues of both Italy and Spain (two countries where 4-3-1-2 and 4-2-3-1 tend to dominate respectively). However, the 4-4-2 has been under fire in recent years from the likes of Jonathan Wilson and the Zonal Marking website, who seem to be determined to consign this playing system to the rubbish heap. Can we prove them wrong?

The rules for this challenge will be far more relaxed than last time in order to encourage participation. The most important rule is that you must play a traditional flat 4-4-2 (GK, DR, DL, DC, DC; MR, ML, MC, MC; FC, FC) however the instructions, player roles, advanced choices etc. are totally up to you. The flat 4-4-2 will be your formation and baseline but you can use any options to change the shape you see on the pitch. I am particularly interested to see how people use the available tactical features to cope with playing against other shapes.

So, the question is, can the 4-4-2 still be effective in modern football? Just how far can you go with 4-4-2?

CHALLENGE RULES

The rules of the challenge are relaxed this time around. You can take control of any side you would like to manage. Different countries where 4-4-2 is not dominant and other playing systems are used would be particularly interesting, so Italy is a possible recommendation, but it is up to you to choose your preferred destination! One thing your new club should provide is an interesting situation in which to go to work with the 4-4-2, whether that be the players at your disposal, the league that you are playing in, or a club with a tradition of playing a different playing system.

The other rules for this challenge are that you must play a traditional flat 4-4-2, however the instructions, player roles, advanced choices etc. are totally up to you. The flat 4-4-2 will be your formation and baseline but you can use any options to change the shape you see on the pitch.

The challenge has no 'end date' so you can carry on playing as long as you want, whether you want a short-term challenge or something long-term. This gives you the opportunity to build your ultimate 4-4-2 team over time!

There are no restrictions on transfers and loan allocations.

I would hope that everyone takes the challenge in the right spirit. Please do not attempt to use exploits or cheats because the main thing is the tactical ideas rather than 'winning' the challenge. As such, there is no winner anyway.

Finally, just a reminder that the point of the thread is to see how far a 4-4-2 can take you. The challenge is to adapt the team and to cope with playing different shapes in the league and other competitions. As such, the aim is to overachieve as much as is possible with your chosen club, but this could be achieved in various ways.

Things to report back on:

It would be great if people could post up details of how they are setting up and the choices they make for certain games. Screenshots are encouraged. Below, I have listed some things that we are particularly interested in hearing about.

1) The main priority is sharing different tactical choices, roles, duties etc.

2) Also, let us know how you cope with meeting superior sides and sides playing different playing systems (e.g. use of opposition instructions, tactical choices, instructions etc.)

3) And, how did you deal with the existing players at your disposal and adapt them to the flat 4-4-2.

4) Plus, any difficult tactical situations you find yourself in and how you overcome (or perhaps didn't!) them.

5) Finally, we want to hear all about your player choices, how they are going to fit into your system and so on and so forth.

In addition to the above, I have two further thoughts. First of all, it has often been said that the 4-4-2 is about system over individuality, so I'm also interested to hear how you allow your individuals to shine in this system. Secondly, the 4-4-2 is also very flexible, and can be defensive and rigid (two banks of four etc.) or gung-ho and attacking (think Harry Redknapp! ). It would be great to hear about how you see your 4-4-2 system playing out.

This is your chance to prove that you are a tactical master of the 4-4-2! Let the fun begin!

Excellent.

I'll be attempting this challenge with Liverpool (as I do with most tactical challenges, mostly because I'm a fan and it's fun). Roy Hodgson tried to adapt this squad to a 4-4-2 in his short spell at Anfield and failed miserably, but in my eyes that was down to the style in which he used the system (sitting deep, long balls to a Torres/N'Gog partnership that was never going to work) rather than the system itself. Can I succeed where Woy failed?

The squad itself is still more suited to the sort of 4-2-3-1 that Benítez employed whilst at the club, and for me one of the biggest challenges is to see if I can make Andy Gray's dreams come true and get Steven Gerrard working well in the MC position (n.b. In real life I am very much a subscriber to the opinion that Gerrard is at his best playing just off Torres, as his tendency to abandon tactical responsibility can be covered by the two sitting deeper in midfield, but I digress).

My initial plan is to set up as follows, but as I progress through my friendlies and early European fixtures this will inevitably be tweaked.

Goalkeeper (Defend)

Fullback (Automatic)

Central Defender (Defend)

Central Defender (Defend)

Wingback (Automatic)

Winger (Attack)

Central Midfielder (Support)

Ball Winning Midfielder (Defend)

Wide Midfielder (Support)

Advanced Forward (Attack)

Deep Lying Forward (Support)

Lack of natural width in my left midfield options is a problem, so I'll likely use Joe Cole there, asking him to cut inside and create space for my wingback (Aurelio) to move into. I lack pace on the right, but Kuyt's work rate on that flank would be very useful and at least the game hasn't rated him as criminally slow as he occasionally looks in real life.

My big quandary at the moment is that, having just fired up the game, I have noticed that Gerrard has exceptional stats to play the DLF role. Only one of the key stats (team work) is below 15 (and even then only just as it's 14) and with his passing, touch, strength and decision making, he is better than a large number of the options I could bring in. So do I retrain him to improve his positional ability as a striker (currently awkward) or do I take the road that says you can't teach a 30 year old dog new tricks and splash an enormous amount of cash on someone like Vucinic?

Nice post Terk. Thought it would be Liverpool.

The Gerrard question is a difficult one to answer. I'd be tempted to go for it though given your lack of options up front. If you are giving him playing time as well as training him, I guess he could gain competency pretty quickly. Depends on his hidden versatility attribute. I would guess it isn't the highest in the world (sort of 'failed attempts' to play on the right flank for Liverpool and the left for England) but it's not going to be incredibly low, surely? Probably higher than average, so I'd probably try it.

Yeah, I've decided to retrain him, given that he has 9 positions on the pitch with at least competent positional ability I figured his versatility attribute must be decent enough. Also partly because I don't really want to go splashing big cash on anyone (I want to stick as much as I can to the spirit of the challenge, the focus of which is the tactic and not squad building), and it allows me to have a comfortable quartet of Meireles, Shelvey, Poulsen and Lucas rotate the two midfield spots between them. And if I can improve his strength over the next few years then Dani Pacheco is a prime candidate to take over from Gerrard in the DLF role.

I may do this with blackpool.

Yeah, I've decided to retrain him, given that he has 9 positions on the pitch with at least competent positional ability I figured his versatility attribute must be decent enough. Also partly because I don't really want to go splashing big cash on anyone (I want to stick as much as I can to the spirit of the challenge, the focus of which is the tactic and not squad building), and it allows me to have a comfortable quartet of Meireles, Shelvey, Poulsen and Lucas rotate the two midfield spots between them. And if I can improve his strength over the next few years then Dani Pacheco is a prime candidate to take over from Gerrard in the DLF role.

Also, I find that players tend to learn adjacent roles pretty quickly. Training a fullback to wingback seems to be way quicker than training a defender to be a forward, for instance, in my experience.

I may do this with blackpool.

Good luck if you decide to give it a go Evil.

Good luck if you decide to give it a go Evil.

I have decided to go with this setup

Goalkeeper (Defend)

LB Full Back (Automatic)

CB Central Defender (Defend/Stopper)

CB Central Defender (Defend/Cover)

RB Wing Back (Attack)

LM Wide midfielder (Support)

CM Advanced Playmaker (Support)

CM Ball Winning Midfielder (Defend)

RM Winger (Attack)

Poacher (Attack)

Target Man (Support)

My logic was that i needed to keep to 2 men in the midfield so when my advanced playmaker my RM will hopefully cover and con start quick breaks,and i have set my RM who has pace and good technical ability via sliders to be more of an inside forward allowing my attack minded RB to overlap.

Great OP

I will also do this with Liverpool, and will line up something like this:

GK: Reina (sweeper keeper)

RB: Kelly (full back, auto)

CB: Skrtel/Carra (limited defender, defend)

CB: Agger/Wilson (ball playing, defend)

LB: Aureilo (wing back, auto)

RM: Johnson (winger, attack)

CM: Gerrard (box to box, support)

CM: Lucas (ball winning, defend)

LM: Maxi/Cole (wide midfielder, attack)

ST: Kuyt (defensive forward, support)

ST: Torres (advanced forward, attack)

Wont make any signings in season 1 unless we suffer an injury crisis but will be looking at getting a natural LM if Cole/Maxi fail to impress. This also gives me an oppourtunity to experiment with Johnson at RM - something some Liverpool fans have been calling for for quite a while now. Once I get the season up and running I'll write more about tactics and dealing with AMC's and the OI's used.

Good to have you both on board Evil and Dburns47.

Blackpool is a good choice there Evil and I think you will do well.

Dburns47 - Interesting to see how you and Terk will be differing on your ideas for playing Liverpool under a 4-4-2. Looking forward to your updates.

Good luck with the challenges guys. I won't be trying it for a while though but it'll be nice to see everyone's progress

Not exactly "joining" the challenge persay, buy I've been using the flat 4-4-2 for my Liverpool team and it's doing well so far.

I have problems when facing team playing 1 up front, especially those that employ a AMC as well. Probably due to the quality of the players at my disposal, I still manage to win these games although not as comfortably as I would like.

Would be interesting to see what the rest of you come up with to deal with this as a couple of teams actually are using 1 striker in the BPl itself.

Good luck to everyone taking this on, particularly to dburns647. As Crouchy said, it will be interesting to see how we each get on with our different approaches to the tactic with Liverpool.

I've just played my first league game, and as I'm using a real fixtures edit, it was Arsenal at Anfield. I'm not going to do this sort of analysis after every game, but I will do for important games throughout the season.

First, my line up.

Reina; Johnson, Carragher, Agger, Aurelio; Kuyt, Lucas, Meireles, Cole; Gerrard, Babel

Babel had surprised me through pre-season with 5 goals in 3 games playing in the Advanced Forward role, so he got the nod over a just-returned-to-training Torres for the start. Having played in every pre-season match, and both legs of our Europa League qualifier against Bnei Yehuda (he scored a goal in each leg), Gerrard now has a positional ability of 'unconvincing' as a striker.

It was nice that my first league game saw me come up against something other than a 4-4-2, as Arsenal fielded their 4-5-1/4-3-3 depending on your notation of their formation. That gave them an extra man in midfield (Vermaelen playing the DM role behind Diaby and Fabregas) so I decided to try and counter that by dropping our defensive line to normal and playing a bit narrower, making sure they would find it more difficult to pass through us.

1st Half

We actually had more possession early on, which I hadn't expected, as Arsenal tried to find their feet and the passing of Lucas and Meireles was superb, the former mostly just laying off simple balls to either Kuyt or Meireles, with the Portuguese then charged with finding our attackers in space.

Arsenal came more into the match after about the twentieth minute, and with Johnson occupied by the movement of Arshavin, Clichy began to find a lot of space down their left wing. To counter this I switched Kuyt's role to Defensive Winger (Attack), and the Dutchman was very effective in stopping Clichy finding the sort of room that he had been enjoying.

The first half ended pretty even, and though Arsenal had fired off more shots than us, every single one had been from outside the penalty area and the one that was on target was comfortably saved by Pepe Reina.

2nd Half

I brought Torres on for Babel at half time, and within 30 seconds he'd brought a good save out of Almunia after Gerrard had played him in. On 53 minutes, Aurelio went down with an injury and was replaced by Konchesky, and I risked making my final substitution at the same time. All our threat had come down the right side, Joe Cole had found it difficult to find space down the left, so he was taken off and my one signing, made just a few days previously, Tranquillo Barnetta came on in his place with a Winger (Attack) role.

We looked a bit unsure for a few minutes with players adjusting to what we were now asking of them, and in that time we conceded a horrible, scrappy goal. A good, old fashioned goal mouth scramble after a corner ended with Robin van Persie turning the ball past Reina.

That meant we had to readjust, and the strategy was immediately changed to attack and the players were asked to close down Arsenal's space even more. It was at this point that Lucas came alive, making five interceptions in the second half alone, all of them in the Arsenal half.

We were soon level, and it was a very nice 4-4-2 goal. Lucas played a simple ball into the feet of Gerrard, who had dropped deep off Vermaelen (now playing at centre back). Barnetta made a run in behind Sagna, and Gerrard's pass was well timed, finding the winger in space and his shot beat Almunia at the near post.

With confidence high, I decided to keep the attacking mentality and go for the win, and though the left us more exposed at the back (which Arsenal should have made us pay for, Van Persie & Walcott somehow contriving to muck it up when they had a 2-on-1 against Agger), we finally nicked the three points with four minutes left. Barnetta beat Sagna and crossed, it was half cleared to Lucas, whose shot was half blocked by Nasri. We'd managed to get three players into the box through, and the loose ball fell to Kuyt eight yards out and he tucked it away. Three points, excellent win.

Stats

Shots: 17 to Arsenal, 14 to Liverpool

Shots from inside the penalty area: 8 for Liverpool, only 3 for Arsenal

Possession: 51%-49% in Arsenal's favour

Pass Completion: 76% for both sides

Tackles won: 75% for Liverpool to 48% for Arsenal

Headers won: 70% for Liverpool to 52% for Arsenal

So we won the physical battle and pretty much matched them with the ball as well. The fact that their extra man in midfield was in the DM role rather than AM role meant that we could ensure that the two MCs were well marked and that there were few open passing options which could cause us trouble. With a rigid shape to our defence, when Arsenal did have men in space, we generally still had men goal side of them, reducing Arsenal all too often to frustrated long shots. The game was ultimately decided in our favour by the direct running of Tranquillo Barnetta, and his presence in the squad may now cause me to rethink my approach down the left flank.

Nice thread C. i am currently playing my long term save with Burnley using a flat 442 so I will keep a close eye on this thread

Just come up against Man City at Eastlands. They played what was described by the game as a 4-2-3-1 but played more like a 4-3-3 with two DMCs and an MC making up their central midfield, then AMR, AML and FC comprising their attack. We played narrow in defence, and then tried to exploit the space that they were leaving down the flanks when we had the ball. We started Tranquillo Barnetta on the left, the idea being that with Mario Balotelli playing at AMR, Micah Richards at DR would be exposed. That was the case and our two best chances fell to Barnetta, both times pulling good saves from Shay Given.

Unfortunately, despite being the slightly better side, we fell to defeat. From a City throw in on the left we had three players (Carragher (DR), Kuyt (MR) & Lucas (MCR)) closing down two City players (Silva & Kolarov). That left Vieira unmarked infield, and when he was found with a simple pass, he thundered a shot in from twenty yards. After that we pushed on to try and find an equaliser and left ourselves open, a long ball over the top finding Balotelli, who got one-on-one with Reina and scored their second.

So although we put in a good performance, a combination of my preference for a high closing down game and a mistake from my ball-winner, Lucas, moving across to close down a situation where there was no trouble, cost us the game. But I still feel the principle of how we approached the game was good.

Nice posts Terk. Very interesting.

Narrow defeat at Eastlands isn't too disappointing really. Sounds as if the reasons for defeat were less tactical and more bad luck/player mistakes. Well, the second goal was clearly a case of you pushing on looking for an equaliser and then getting punished, which often happens if you're playing a top side away, but you have to take the risk to get back in the game.

Enjoyed your blow-by-blow account of the Arsenal match. Nicely turned around there.

LOst 1-0 against west brom away after dominating to a 92nd minute goal grr.

Will post stats in a minute.

I usually play the 4-4-2 with the wingers in the AML and AMR slots but after reading this thread i thought i would give a flat 4-4-2 a go.

I am Gateshead and in my third season and after two promotions in a row we are in League One and favourites for the drop but with some of the signings i have made i think we could make a push for the playoffs.

This is what i have been using and surprisingly it is working very well.

GK Goalkeeper (Defend)

RB Full Back (Auto)

LB Full Back (Auto)

CB Central Defender (Defend)

CB Central Defender (Defend)

MR Winger (Attack)

ML Winger (Attack)

MC Central Midfielder (Defend)

MC Advanced Playmaker (Attack)

SC Poacher (Attack)

SC Poacher (Attack)

The team instructions are very basic and are

Philosophy Balanced

Starting Strategy Standard

Then everything else on Default.

So what do you guys do when coming up against a 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1?

The 4-4-1-1 seems to give me the most problems.

If I'm much the better side, then I rarely do anything to adjust to other teams. I have been known to specific mark certain players in the past, or even to close them down if I see a specific threat, but often, if playing defensively, I will leave it zonal with two banks of four and everyone bar one striker getting behind the ball. The main issue is dealing with a free player who repeatedly gets between the lines and has the chance to pull a shot from range away.

4-4-1-1 hasn't given me too many problems. The nightmare I have is the 4-2-3-1 with three AMCs (the narrow version) but then I struggle against that shape with pretty much any formation!

Only a friendly I know but interesting tactics-wise in my game against Inter. They played a 4-2-3-1 deep (with DM's and a wide '3'), the 2 holding midfielders were giving us bother as they were always on the ball and able to bypass our CMs to get the ball into their AMC and so I made Kuyt man mark their DMLC while increasing Gerrard's closing down to max and man marking their DMRC leaving Lucas to deal with the AMC. Improved things significantly and Inter had nowhere near as much posession after this switch.

Also in the second half Inter changed to a 4-4-2 and Maicon's charges forward were giving us trouble with Cole not the great defensively so Kuyt was changed to man mark Maicon while still staying up front and his goal came from a tackle on Maicon before playing a one-two with N'Gog. Milito equalised with a header from a header to finish the match 1-1 but interesting tactical.

Is it my imagination or did an advanced playmaker/support have no forward runs in fm2010?

It definitely didn't on FM10. Has it changed for FM11 then?

The nightmare I have is the 4-2-3-1 with three AMCs (the narrow version) but then I struggle against that shape with pretty much any formation!

I'm actually working my current team towards that system myself. So although I'm not using a 4-4-2 at the moment, I can perhaps help when it comes to containing the narrow 4-2-3-1. In essence, it is no more than a variety of 4-4-2 in my book, as most of these fancy looking formations all have their roots in 4-4-2.

The biggest threats are obviously the three attacking midfielders. If using inside forwards, your full backs should be tasked to keeping them under tabs. Their full-backs will try to get forward often, so your wide midfielders should look to contain them and also exploit any space they leave open at the back. The central attacking midfielder poses the biggest problem, because he'll be sitting in, or hitting, the hole in the middle of your centre-backs and central midfielders. Your most defensive minded midfielder should be tasked to man-mark him and it's better to employ a zonal stopper/cover approach with the central defenders.

The biggest risk all three attacking midfielders will pose, is their creativity on the ball and movement off the ball. Such a formation is rarely defensive orientated, so they'll likely be pressing hard higher up the pitch, looking to keep your defence and midfield under pressure. Less of the fancy stuff at the back is probably the best option, unless your defence and midfield is exceptionally talented in the tackling and marking department, along with good overall mental attributes. Mindful of that, if using a 4-4-2 against a narrow 4-2-3-1, I usually adopt a more direct passing approach to get the ball away from pressure and up towards my own advanced players.

Thanks for that Heathxxx. I'll definitely give some of that a go.

On my current main save, Arsenal are playing that system under Tony Mowbray (!) and I'm finding them very hard to contain with my 4-4-2.

So what do you guys do when coming up against a 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1?

The 4-4-1-1 seems to give me the most problems.

So far I haven't come up against 4-4-1-1 and have only faced 4-2-3-1 against Trabzonspor in the Europa League qualifiers (we won 3-1 on aggregate). At heathxxx said, man marking the opponent's AMC would be an option, and I would probably look at doing that if I were playing a team around the same level as me or stronger. I felt comfortable that we were better than Trabzonspor though, so just tried to contain the AMC with a stopper/cover centre back partnership and that worked pretty well.

Thanks for that Heathxxx. I'll definitely give some of that a go.

On my current main save, Arsenal are playing that system under Tony Mowbray (!) and I'm finding them very hard to contain with my 4-4-2.

The biggest difficulty is that it's also usually possession based. The dilemma then is do you instruct more closing down and "hassle" opponents to regain possession, or more closely mark the more creative players and hope to win the ball back from the tackles.

wish this challenge had come up earlier! Have just completed a season with Manchester United playing 4-4-2 for the vast majority of it. Had fantastic success with it, winning the treble, although more than a little luck was involved in the final where i was sliced apart by Real Madrid.

Will post some screens up thats still ok?

So far I haven't come up against 4-4-1-1 and have only faced 4-2-3-1 against Trabzonspor in the Europa League qualifiers (we won 3-1 on aggregate). At heathxxx said, man marking the opponent's AMC would be an option, and I would probably look at doing that if I were playing a team around the same level as me or stronger. I felt comfortable that we were better than Trabzonspor though, so just tried to contain the AMC with a stopper/cover centre back partnership and that worked pretty well.

4-4-1-1 is a nightmare, Spurs deploy it against me, i ended up with my Mcd marking Van der Vaart then employing a stopper cover partnership to close down defoe, so if he beat the stopper I'd have the cover being able to make a last ditch tackle

4-4-1-1 is a nightmare, Spurs deploy it against me, i ended up with my Mcd marking Van der Vaart then employing a stopper cover partnership to close down defoe, so if he beat the stopper I'd have the cover being able to make a last ditch tackle

Yeah, I've just come up against 4-4-1-1 played by Birmingham. Alex Hleb played just off Roque Santa Cruz. I didn't have specific marking on him in the first half, simply tried to cover him with the stopper/cover partnership, but he tore us a new one, twice put Santa Cruz in to score and we could only pull one back in the second half Think I'll definitely have my MCd on man marking duties next time I come up against that formation.

Will post some screens up thats still ok?

Definitely, always interested in seeing how others go with the formation.

It definitely didn't on FM10. Has it changed for FM11 then?

Looks like it, mixed forward runs. odd.

Looks like it, mixed forward runs. odd.

yep mixed runs now, works a lot better in my experience

towards the end of fm10 I was toying with this:

GK Goalkeeper (Defend)

RB Full Back (Auto)

CB Ball Playing Defender (Stopper)

CB Ball Playing Defender (Cover)

LB Full Back (Auto)

MR Winger (Support, byline cross, cuts inside)

MC Advanced Playmaker (Attack, deep cross, HUB)

MC Ball winner (Defend, lowest possible mentality, rare crossing, closing down in the middle)

ML Winger (Support, byline cross, cuts inside)

SC Targetman (Attack)

SC Poacher (Attack, lowest possible mentality)

all players on rare for long shots

Philosophy: Very Fluid

Starting Strategy: Attacking

Passing Style: Short

Crossing: Float Crosses

Marking: Zonal

Time Waste: First notch of often

in short we have a team with staggerd mentality makinging the team link up extremely well, the fluid approach means that there's less space between the lines (which also helps with link up), up front I went with the simple logic that a fast poacher running at the defense and playing of the more attacking targetman would be more effective when it comes to bringing both into goal scoring action (the big guy is often slower so stationing him closer to goal makes perfect sense)

while this tactic was bloody great going forward it also leaked like crazy, which make me think that a flat 4-4-2 need two central holding player acting a bit like a double pivot while i should bring the wide players a tad more forward and have them drift into central positions to do link up that the attacking playmaker used to do (I would be moving back towards how I played on 10,2, and how Villarreal play irl)

This is how i lined up my 4-4-2 (note since im just starting a 2nd season there are some new signings in here):

GK: Goalkeepr/Defend (now Sweeper Keeper as ive signed Hart)

DL: Wing Back/Attack

DCs: Central Defenders/Defend (occaisonally Stopper/Cover as and when needed)

DR: Full Back/Support

ML: Winger/Attack (see tweaks in 3rd screenshot)

MCl: Central Mid/Defend

MCr: Advanced Playmaker/Attack

MR Winger/Attack

FCl: Comeplete Forward/Support

FCr: Complete Forward/Attack

Only other tweaks: MR normal wingplay

Everyone except wingback has mixed crossing frequency

Despite it being an inherently attacking tactic, the fluid philosophy combined with quite a few hardworking players resulted in some incredibly good defensive stability even in games where we were undermanned in midfield, while getting numbers forward in attack. The right side was fairly orthodox in attack, while the left side overloaded the opposition.

Standout Performers:

Rooney 40 goals in 48 games

Nani 13 goals 21 assisits

Hazard 11 goals 19 assists

Hamsik 13 goals 15 assists

*these are off the top of my head, so may out by one or two, Rooney was a definite 40 goal season if not more though

Since this was done before i saw the challenge there a few 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 games in here ( im very happy to say that the final against Real Madrid was 4-4-2 though), though in fairness the latter of the alternates was not very successful and the 4-4-2 was by far the better of the three . If anyone wants a PKM of a specific match im happy to upload

and team instructions:

The ML tweaks:

My results:

and one of my favourite results:

sorry for the double post, only allowed 4 screenshots per post

yep mixed runs now, works a lot better in my experience

I don't like it for a 4-4-2, I like to have both CM's on no forward runs otherwise i have a tendency to get raped through the middle.

I've not been playing with a 4-4-2 specifically for this challenge but I found the FM10 4-4-2 challenge & crouchy pointed me in the way of this one, I'd thought I'd share a tactic that has been getting me superb results recently. Just a little background, managing Newcastle since the beginning, now in my 2017/18 season and challenging for the title, and in the CL. Last season we were league & CL runners up and won the FA Cup, so I have got a good side to play with.

Firstly, these are the results I've had since switching to it, I was playing a 4-2-2-2 of sorts before:

I accept most of those games are winnable, the highlight being the 4-1 victory over my title rivals Spurs. Also in the League Cup games and the last 2 CL group games I played a weaker side as we were already through as group winners and I don't much care for the league cup.

Secondly, my team instructions:

I pretty much let the creator do the work here for me, I've changed very little. I used to play much deeper but I do now believe as long as your defenders are not slouches playing a high pressing game is 100% the way forward. I keep them in position as I like to keep my shape, but I play Fluidly as I can trust my players, they are all able enough to pick out a pass.

Now, the roles:

GK: Goalkeeper / Defend - Pretty straight forward. Nothing changed here except his distribution, I've set it to Quick Throw to either my LB or RB (I change this every game depending on who can pass better out of my LB or RB). I never set him to distribute to the DCs as I feel it's too risky that the opponent strikers will steal it.

DL/DR: Fullbacks / Automatic - I have changed absolutely no individual instructions here, not much to say.

DCs: Central Defender / Defend - Only thing I've changed here is my corner settings for them individually. One attacks the Far Post (where all corners are sent) and the other challenges the keeper. It's working, Jordan Spence has 10 goals this season so far.

ML/MR: Wingers / Attack - The creator wanted me to have Wide Midfielders but with such good players at my disposal who are naturals at AML/R I couldn't. They do still help out defensively and are absolutely superb down the wing. Belhanda in particular has shone at ML and has 13 assists & 4 goals in 20 games.

MCl: Ball Winning Midfielder / Defend - My "Claude Makelele" if you like. Drops slightly deeper and just tidies up. I have Jack Rodwell here and he is superb.

MCr: Advanced Playmaker / Support - Drops into the hole between the opponent midfield & defence and passes it wide to the wingers or through. I have yet to come up against a side playing a good DM though, I imagine he might be slightly thwarted then. We will see!

STl: Trequartista / Attack - I'll be honest here. I just picked Trequartista as I've never used one before. And it works! Sanogo plays here and has got 15 in 22 with 8 assists also.

STr: Poacher / Attack - Sits on the last man and feeds off balls from his strike partner and from the midfield, as well as getting on the end of crosses from the wing. Will also provide some, Javier Hernandez has 12 goals and 6 assists in the 11 games he has played so far.

So there you have it! It's not fool proof yet and I have not tested it against the best teams yet, but results so far, including the thrashing of Spurs, give me hope this will be able to stand up to any team. Happy to answer any questions if you have any

You posted that on TAS too lwi here. I posted my opinions of that in there too.

Anyway, I started this challenge last year if I remember correctly crouchy but didn't really get started. I haven't had much time lately to play FM but if everything clears up, I'll definitely have a go of this and report back! On my H&RB save which heathxxx knows alot about I've used a 4-4-2 with the Wingers pushed up, whatever you may call that and it's been successful so far, sitting comfortably top of the league approaching mid-season but as I said before, not having much time for FM currently.

Because most play a flat 4-4-2 in the Lower Leagues, I'm having to make use of my Wingers as they are the only players positioned within the defensive and midfield lines of their team and as such play an important part. Generally, they're normal Wingers but I have subs who can play other Roles, even one who suits Advanced Playmaker so it's fun chopping and changing and noticing the difference it makes.

You posted that on TAS too lwi here. I posted my opinions of that in there too.

Anyway, I started this challenge last year if I remember correctly crouchy but didn't really get started. I haven't had much time lately to play FM but if everything clears up, I'll definitely have a go of this and report back! On my H&RB save which heathxxx knows alot about I've used a 4-4-2 with the Wingers pushed up, whatever you may call that and it's been successful so far, sitting comfortably top of the league approaching mid-season but as I said before, not having much time for FM currently.

Because most play a flat 4-4-2 in the Lower Leagues, I'm having to make use of my Wingers as they are the only players positioned within the defensive and midfield lines of their team and as such play an important part. Generally, they're normal Wingers but I have subs who can play other Roles, even one who suits Advanced Playmaker so it's fun chopping and changing and noticing the difference it makes.

I used to play with wingers at AML & AMR before switching to a regular 4-4-2 - how are you finding them defensively? Mine were superb going forward but good wingers on the opposing sides would exploit the lack of defence on my wings far too easily.

Aslo interesting how you chop and change roles - I rarely do that as I'm not sure how they will cope in a unfamiliar role.

I think they press more than MR/L's but don't keep position as well. They're always in much better positions for the counter-attack which forced the opposition's fullback much more as well though.

What I meant by the chopping and changing was when I start/bring on different players who suit other Roles, I change to them and it's interesting to see how differently they behave to the normal Winger and the effect it has on the rest of the team. The players around an Inside Forward would act differently to when playing with a normal Winger, for example.

So I posted a few of these up elsewhere and thought they made for interesting discussion, here's the first bit of screenshot analysis I have done

This screenshot perfectly shows why I really like the 4-4-2 and its general shape:

Red Line = the 3 banks of players - Def, Mid & Att.

Black Line = the number of passing options the player on the ball (LuaLua) has.

Blue Arrow = forward runs being made

Orange Arrow = Actual pass played.

The back 4 there is perfectly positioned, we have Rodwell (circled) as our ball winning midfielder protecting the back four, and in the end the two strikers play a lovely one-two and Hernandez has an easy finish.

Shame it has gone a bit quiet on here as this promised well at the beginning.

I've been having a lot of fun with 4-4-2 on FM10 (I'm still playing a save on that version). I will try to get some stuff up on my experiences later.

Still using the normal 4-4-2.

Balanced, Control, Shorter passing, Zonal Marking, and More Roaming.

Blitz the Premier League so far, with a goal difference waay superior to the other teams and sitting comfortably at the top. Using Liverpool btw.

Who up front Riziger?

great idea. without any doubts, participating in causeforconcern's challange gave me my favourite save in whole FM10. as long as I've never played flat 4-4-2 in FM this save must be interesting. in causeforconcern's challange I've got 4-1-4-1 so I hope for the best with 4-4-2.

I'll be attempting this challenge with Everton. At this moment I don't have any ideas how to bring out the best out of Cahill in this formation, I even don't know where I want him to play . Just started so I'll try to find out this ASAP. post with more details will be here soon I think

Good luck Klajwert.

great idea. without any doubts, participating in causeforconcern's challange gave me my favourite save in whole FM10. as long as I've never played flat 4-4-2 in FM this save must be interesting. in causeforconcern's challange I've got 4-1-4-1 so I hope for the best with 4-4-2.

I'll be attempting this challenge with Everton. At this moment I don't have any ideas how to bring out the best out of Cahill in this formation, I even don't know where I want him to play . Just started so I'll try to find out this ASAP. post with more details will be here soon I think

Had you thought of using Cahill as a Deep-Lying forward in a similair kind of way to how he plays for Australia??

Who up front Riziger?

Torres and Dzeko. I've found that the tactic really clicks when 1 striker is on support and 1 on attack. Dzeko is the Complete Striker Support and Torres is Adv Forward Attack.

I'm mulling over making 1 CM attack, but attack means Fwd runs are often, leaving gaps. At the moment I've changed it back to a BTB partnering a ball winning midfielder with defend.

I'm using somthing similar to lurking's strategy, most clear with the treq and poacher as forwards. I've been trying to get the creative/goalscoring combination going, and in my opinion the treq and poacher most represents it in fm. I give the treq a little bit of closing down, so he can present a body in front of the dm, even with no tackling skills. It works well, better then the deep lying/advanced combination, or the complete forward support/attack combination. With both outside midfielders attacking, I shore up the midfield with a defensive ball-winning and a deep-lying pm (support).