Another tactics based poll

1. Complex - This would be a game based on the likes of TT&F in which the game is played using a large tactic set(TT&F for instance uses 5, Standard, Attacking, Defensive, Control and SUS)

This requires watching matches in some detail, as it is necessary to make in game tweaks based on incidents transpiring on the pitch.

The use of OI's is essential and this style of game could be considered time consuming and micro managing.

2. Simplified - This style of game would require using anything from a single tactic up to four(which could be described as Home, Away, Need Goal and SUS) Matches can be watched at any speed using key highlights, with only the need for minor tweaks late on in a game if required.

The Ass Man can be instructed to take care of both Team Talks and Press Conferences if required, whilst the use of OI's is optional.

This style of game could be considered as much fun as it is challenging.

I thought it would be interesting to find out what the FM Community really wants from this wonderfully addictive game?

Why would I wanna part with £30 for a game which a kid could complete?

When like now I part with that £30 and it keeps me going and happy for a year or more?

Go figure:)

Ultimate? Man, you are one massive ego. Why don't you give your one-trick pony a break?

Anyway, complex and realistic, as you must know by now from your myriad identikit threads.

hmm another tactical post..suprise suprise.

but I like watching matches in detail so complex for me

1. Complex - This would be a game based on the likes of TT&F in which the game is played using a large tactic set(TT&F for instance uses 5, Standard, Attacking, Defensive, Control and SUS)

This requires watching matches in some detail, as it is necessary to make in game tweaks based on incidents transpiring on the pitch.

The use of OI's is essential and this style of game could be considered time consuming and micro managing.

This seems to be a pretty biased concept of the game. Although the game can be considered complex, as things currently are, it doesn't really have to be if players follow a few basic principals. I think a lot of people make things too complicated for themselves and then blame the game for being too complicated in all fairness.

2. Simplified - This style of game would require using anything from a single tactic up to four(which could be described as Home, Away, Need Goal and SUS) Matches can be watched at any speed using key highlights, with only the need for minor tweaks late on in a game if required.

The Ass Man can be instructed to take care of both Team Talks and Press Conferences if required, whilst the use of OI's is optional.

This style of game could be considered as much fun as it is challenging.

This is in fact no different to what's possible now in reality. Pretty much all you have mentioned, you can do now, so I can't really understand the point of this poll. It's all possible to do as the game is presented in its current form, therefore there's no "Complex" or "Simplified" argument here.

The user already has every opportunity to make the game as complex or simple as they like.

I'm 8 seasons in and doing very well. I've certainly not been micro managing anything.

In fact, I just realised today that all bar 4 of my coaches had retired / been poached by other teams - I hadn't even noticed!

So for me, the game's fine as is. Those that want complex micro management can have it, those that don't can automate / ignore a lot of things.

I want a complex game. There are simple management games already on the market. If that's what I wanted, I would play them. The option is already there and I choose FM, which is the complex one.

Also, I don't see what's so vital about my vote here.

if this game becomes simple i will head off to championship manager

if you people want simple will you just go buy fifa manager and stop complaining about how hard fm is

1. Complex - This would be a game based on the likes of TT&F in which the game is played using a large tactic set(TT&F for instance uses 5, Standard, Attacking, Defensive, Control and SUS)

So..., 5 is complex, but 4 is simple?

This requires watching matches in some detail, as it is necessary to make in game tweaks based on incidents transpiring on the pitch.

What, like an actual football manager?

The use of OI's is essential and this style of game could be considered time consuming and micro managing.

Now I understand why Vidic was so poor against Torres. It's not 'cos Torres owned him all game it's 'cos SAF couldn't be bothered with all that micro management nonsense.

2. Simplified - This style of game would require using anything from a single tactic up to four(which could be described as Home, Away, Need Goal and SUS) Matches can be watched at any speed using key highlights, with only the need for minor tweaks late on in a game if required.

I refer you to the above. Is 5 really more complex than 4? Hell, I have 3 attacking, 3 defending, 3 all out, and about 4 defensive set ups dependent on opposition formation, and even that's not complex.

It's like asking to play Killzone 2 without the need to aim properly.

This style of game could be considered as much fun as it is challenging.

The game is fun. As is. End of. Period.

I thought it would be interesting to find out what the FM Community really wants from this wonderfully addictive game?

No you didn't. You've simply made another anal effort to whip up some passengers for a bandwagon that is frankly going nowhere, something you might have noticed from the chorus of disinterested slap-downs in previous posts.

The game's fine as it is. Simplicity belongs on consoles.

Question: Why exactly is my vote vital? I cannot imagine with a game as succesful as this that a few misguided cry babies voting for simplicity is remotely going to avert the progress of SI in making this both challenging and realistic, and herein lies they key - for most of us the challenge and realism is what makes it fun.

Agree with Indi.

Pointless poll (due to the style of question and limited response available) and lame thread.

I'd go with complex... the games seem to last longer (game time) when you're focussing on the details.

Loaded poll.

Like it or not, the chopping and changing is part and parcel of football and therefore will be part of FM. FM isn't as hard or as complex as some people make it out to be. RE tactics. Four tactics? Five? No need. I have only one most of the time, sometimes two. Just change as required by match. Slower/faster, wider/narrower, some individual player instructions changes, that's it. Takes 10 seconds. Time consuming?

Anyway, SI is developing a new tactical "wizard" with the aim of helping the tactically impaired. If everything goes well, the wizard will be in FM10.

I didn't vote because I don't like the sound of the available responses.

By the way, I've always thought that you could always leave press conferences and team talks to your assistant...

I just want to point out that this Poll was not meant as an EASY/HARD vote, it is supposed to be about time and effort and to find out if the majority of FM'ers really had the time to put in the effort and if that time was rewarding?

I apologise for any misunderstanding that may have been caused by my inability to fully represent the true meaning of the Poll.

I'm thinking about making a poll:

Should Hammer1000 stop making pointless polls?

a) Yes, definitely

b) Yes, now

The question of complexity versus simplicity in FM has already been answered by one of the chief SI gurus (I forget which one). He said that FM would never forsake complexity for simplicity. Well not while the guy in question had anything to do with it.

Why not just call it Football Manager or FIFA Manager?

I just want to point out that this Poll was not meant as an EASY/HARD vote, it is supposed to be about time and effort and to find out if the majority of FM'ers really had the time to put in the effort and if that time was rewarding?

I apologise for any misunderstanding that may have been caused by my inability to fully represent the true meaning of the Poll.

If I wanted simple I'd play Fifa Manager.

The more effort I put in the more engrossed I become. If I wanted a nice easy simple game to play then I'd buy a nice easy simple game.

I just want to point out that this Poll was not meant as an EASY/HARD vote, it is supposed to be about time and effort and to find out if the majority of FM'ers really had the time to put in the effort and if that time was rewarding?

I apologise for any misunderstanding that may have been caused by my inability to fully represent the true meaning of the Poll.

Ahh.

In that case you should have asked the question "Do you think FM2009 is too time consuming and requires too much effort to play properly? Yes. No."

In which I would reply not really actually...

from my past experiance it takes me about 12 hours to a days gameplay to complete a season, not that time consuming considering that I spent some time thinking about my tactics and how to employ them. Other than that most my time is spent on looking at talent for my squad. And then most of my game time is spare time so id say its rewarding agiants my time played.

I just want to point out that this Poll was not meant as an EASY/HARD vote, it is supposed to be about time and effort and to find out if the majority of FM'ers really had the time to put in the effort and if that time was rewarding?

I apologise for any misunderstanding that may have been caused by my inability to fully represent the true meaning of the Poll.

Well you've had enough practice. You been banging on about the same blind obsession to no avail for dozens of posts. Just give it a break now.

people had succes with one tactic (even default) and tactical sets. real life managers will change aproach for each game and during games and they do watch games, and have more than just one tactics in their pockets. so i guess FM is spot on about it. tactically FM is complicated but not complex imo, we're trying to beat sliders not football games - cracking sliders is the most important task FM player has or just leave it and use default tactics (how odd is that?). i'm not sure why is using OIs esential if half of it doesn't work anyway..

there's plenty of room to add complexity and realism to the game; trainings, match preparations, man managment, squad atmosphere, tactical interface, tactics vs player abilty, tactical diversity, AI tactics, AI transfers..

Complex, which is why I play FM, not Premier Manager.

I'd like it pretty much where it is now, i.e as complex as you want to make it. You can have success using tactic sets or by using one balanced tactic that you sometimes adjust according to the situation.

Unfortunately this option is not part of your poll so I cannot vote.

Complex, which is why I play FM, not Premier Manager.

WORST MANAGEMENT GAME EVER!!

The overall gameplay gives you the impression the game is aimed at 6 year olds.

Im glad i only paid a tenner for it this year, it wasnt worth getting my money back, that way they would put it in the pre-owned section, waiting for some poor git to come along and waste his money on that abomination.

I agree with chopper99, the game can be as complicated or simple as you like. You can win by paying a little attention to what is going on in the game and having a couple of different tactics that you can use against the AI as and when they change their tactics.

The problem is Hammer1000 (and this is probably why you seem to only start threads of this type) you seem to refuse to accept that you shouldn't just be able to pick 11 men, use your one tactic and just watch your team win trophy after trophy regardless of what the AI is doing.

I'm not having a pop at you but if you just accepted some of the advise that people like wwfan et al have given you and changed your tactic during the match in relation to what the AI is doing, I am sure that you will a) get better results and b) start to understand the ME & game a little more.

Hammers trouble is that he cannot enjoy the game unless he is overachieving considerably. Unforunately this is unrealistic with just one tactic and should be left for the more inferior games.

Hammer has had many threads, and many people who have disagreed with him, i thought he would have conceded by now that some people do not share his view, yet he still avoids taking the advice and continues to open countless threads in an attempt to convince us that he is being cheated

The problem is Hammer1000 (and this is probably why you seem to only start threads of this type) you seem to refuse to accept that you shouldn't just be able to pick 11 men, use your one tactic and just watch your team win trophy after trophy regardless of what the AI is doing.

I'm replying to this part of your post as this is a clear common misconception of what i personally want from the game.

I honestly dont mind people having a pop at me(not saying you are mate) but i would prefer it if people would get their facts straight before assuming i'm simply looking for a "Diablo" type tactic?

I much prefer a good level of difficulty, but not at the cost of what i am witnessing in FM09 which is the utterly random element?

I have heard good things about FM2010, so my FM days may not be over yet?, but i dont believe i am going to be able to come to terms with FM09, although i remain hopeful?

Plus, i'm only posting so much lately as i cannot get a game of 09 going.

one of the best things bout football manager is it realism and to simplifie it would take away it realism and you can do good with just one tactic i use a tactic for all games and im 3rd with wigan in season 4 and last season finished top 4 and i dont mess with the coaches much in trying to get this 7 star coaches i think all mine are 3 or maybe 4 stars

so it clearly already a simple game if you want it to be or a complicated one if you want it to be complicated i have another save aswell where using same tactic i was promoted with york in 1st season

Whilst I understand that he is frustrated, I cannot get my head around the fact that so many people have offered him proof that the ME doesn't cheat and also (and more importantly) ways that he can get his team to win yet he steadfastly refuses to accept this help or try the advice.

Hammers trouble is that he cannot enjoy the game unless he is overachieving considerably. Unforunately this is unrealistic with just one tactic and should be left for the more inferior games.

Misconception - I'm more than happy to use a tactic set, if i can understand how to implement it? I tend to end up using a single tactic because of the randomness of the game, the less changes i make, the less chance of me making an error choosing the correct tactic.

Hammer has had many threads, and many people who have disagreed with him, i thought he would have conceded by now that some people do not share his view, yet he still avoids taking the advice and continues to open countless threads in an attempt to convince us that he is being cheated

Misconception - This has nothing to do with cheating.

I can understand the animosity shown towards me, but having digs about stuff that has absolutely no bearing on the topic is just sad and probably a lame attempt to get a rise out of me?

It wont work so why bother?

Misconception - I'm more than happy to use a tactic set, if i can understand how to implement it? I tend to end up using a single tactic because of the randomness of the game, the less changes i make, the less chance of me making an error choosing the correct tactic.

But do you not see that the reason you get what you percieve to be unrealistic results is partly due to the fact that the AI is changing their tactics at some point in the game and nicking a goal because your still playing the same tactics as previously?

As for understanding the tactic and how to read the ME, there are numerous threads with some very interesting ideas (I would suggest the TT&F thread but not sure you'd like to take on-board anything wwfan has suggested). You can do it yourself by trial and error, keep your formation the same and play around with the team sliders to see what happens. If the AI goes attacking then you should go slightly more defensive, f they are sitting back then you should press them harder etc, etc. You are never (and should never) be able to win every game as there will be times when you just don't get the rub of the green or the AI plays a blinder or you just make the wrong decision.

I haven't seen any digs at Hammer1000, but I am growing tired of the tactics threads tbh and this thread in partiular has been answered many, many times before, in threads from Hammer1000.

I want a game which is both complex and simple.

A) I want it to be possible to devise detailed tactics which reflect how I want my players to play. In this sense, I want the game to be complex.

However, B) I want a mechanism that will enable me to do A) which is clear and straightforward to implement. I don't want something which needs study of a long manual full of 'gurugobbledegookspeak' in order to get my head round sliders whose function can be ambiguous with settings which seem to overlap each other. In this sense, I want the game to be simple.

That's why I haven't voted in the poll.

For an ultimate poll this one doesn't really offer enough options. It's not as easy as that, but if it was, I would stay with 'complex'. Just tactics need to be simplified a bit.

But do you not see that the reason you get what you percieve to be unrealistic results is partly due to the fact that the AI is changing their tactics at some point in the game and nicking a goal because your still playing the same tactics as previously?

As for understanding the tactic and how to read the ME, there are numerous threads with some very interesting ideas (I would suggest the TT&F thread but not sure you'd like to take on-board anything wwfan has suggested). You can do it yourself by trial and error, keep your formation the same and play around with the team sliders to see what happens. If the AI goes attacking then you should go slightly more defensive, f they are sitting back then you should press them harder etc, etc. You are never (and should never) be able to win every game as there will be times when you just don't get the rub of the green or the AI plays a blinder or you just make the wrong decision.

Look, i'll just say this.

Whenever a new game or patch is released, i always spend about 4-6 weeks just testing, like you mention by trial and error.

I dont just load the game up and expect to start winning matches, or to win the EPL with my West Ham team first season.

Lets just leave it there and go on our merry way, ok?

Look, i'll just say this.

Whenever a new game or patch is released, i always spend about 4-6 weeks just testing, like you mention by trial and error.

I dont just load the game up and expect to start winning matches, or to win the EPL with my West Ham team first season.

Lets just leave it there and go on our merry way, ok?

Ok Hammer1000, no problem. Good luck with your games and I hope that you crack it in the future so that you can enjoy the game again.

I doubt the votes for this are 'vital' as you claim. I vote complex. Simple is for those who want an easy ride, to win everything every season, don't want a proper challenge, and want things handed to them on a plate.

Ok Hammer1000, no problem. Good luck with your games and I hope that you crack it in the future so that you can enjoy the game again.

Appreciate it, thank you!

I haven't seen any digs at Hammer1000, but I am growing tired of the tactics threads tbh and this thread in partiular has been answered many, many times before, in threads from Hammer1000.

Some people can't tell the difference between a dig at a person and a criticism of their points or of their post.

Simple is for those who want an easy ride, to win everything every season, don't want a proper challenge, and want things handed to them on a plate.

Evidence please?

Evidence please?

Oh for crying out loud! I don't aim that directly at you Rupal, I like you as a poster, but when will people learn that these stupid threads about tactics always descend into petty tit for tat squabbling and pedantry. The sooner this thread is closed the better, it's just full of people saying the same things they have said countless times before.

PS: 9 out of Hammer's 12 thread sin GQ have been about tactics and all say basically the same thing. Is there really any need for this thread?

Not enough options to vote.

Simplified complexity.

Oh for crying out loud! I don't aim that directly at you Rupal, I like you as a poster, but when will people learn that these stupid threads about tactics always descend into petty tit for tat squabbling and pedantry.

*hug*

But some people always take the line that if somebody wants things to be simpler they must automatically be bad losers, etc, etc. It's not a fair way of looking at things at all and just denigrates other posters. Too many people talk down to others in these threads.

*hug*

But some people always take the line that if somebody wants things to be simpler they must automatically be bad losers, etc, etc. It's not a fair way of looking at things at all and just denigrates other posters. Too many people talk down to others in these threads.

Of course, but that's just another reason why these threads should be avoided tbh.

I'm happy with the game's difficulty right now. I don't find myself spending forever doing tactics, but am still having a lot of success.

I don't know why people can't make do with the game they've got. Sure, bona fide bugs are an irritant and the number upon release of FM09 was bordering on unacceptable (and this from an alleged "fanboy"). But in terms of complication, this game IS NOT THAT COMPLEX.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - you do not need a tactics bible to have moderate success. Yes, if you want to take Rushden and Diamonds up every single year and win the CL your second season in the Prem, you need a tactic that exploits the ME (the corner 'bug' should suffice for those who wish to do this). However, if you want a moderately realistic game you will be happy with the game's complexities that are STILL not as complex as real life.

My Newcastle save is currently in 2014 and I'm 4 points clear in March. This is the first time I have expected to win the league, however I have not been out of Europe. Moderate success, and if this were real life (considering the club's current position) I'd be more popular than Keegan. However, I only change my tactics maybe 3 times a match, usually small tweaks, sometimes bigger ones (chasing the game or shutting up shop). Pretty simple: look at opposition, pick tactics to meet it (442 always seems to struggle against 4-3-3 for me) and pick players appropriate to those positions; when the game starts, assess the effectiveness of your tactic (I always find that if the opposition have 3 chances in a row that they fail to convert, the 4th or 5th is going to go in, so a tweak is usually in order); winning or drawing at half time = minor tweak, while losing at half time = major changes; defending a narrow lead at the end, 4-5-1, slow, def, counter-attacking, and I score more than I concede using this. It's not genius-grade tactics, and it isn't let's win everything every time. But it's still more successful than 'real life'.

In a REAL football match, tactics are tweaked every few minutes - see managers shouting at their players to "get tighter" or "pull back" or "push up". FM is nowhere near this complex.

If anyone hates the game that much there are plenty of tools and workarounds to make the game easier without depriving those of us who enjoy a challenge.

Lost to that relegation-threatened team and you really don't thing it's "realistic" to do so? Reload, play again.

Budget not enough to attract Kaka to Hull City? Use editor pre-game or one of the FM-Genie type tools during the game to increase Hull's rep, budget and Kaka's fave club.

Not enough wonderkids in your team? Again, 3rd party editors work a treat.

If you are not happy with the game's difficulty / level of detail it's easy to make it easier. And no, difficulty level options are not an option.

just thinking, how is my vote vital or not?

SI will be set in there ways as how they want the match engine etc to progress. What this poll will achieve is nothing but people, as you can see, saying they find it easy or hard.

Will me saying saying its to hard or a simpler version would be better really change the face of the game? I doubt it.

I have changed the thread title as it was misleading.

I have changed the thread title as it was misleading.

You forgot the word "Yet", at the start of it.