A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

What do I need to do in a 4312 shape to get more out of teh AMC?

And just in general how do I avoid these collapses? My home formation is still quite positive.

Is your AMC getting the space he needs? Is he ever in space? Does he receive the ball a lot? Is he doing what you're looking for him to do? 

Or... turning around that question - what ARE you looking for him to do? I saw your formation on top with 2 strikers ahead of him and him on an AM/A role and duty, so what is it that you want from him? Is he doing that? If not, have you thought about why not?

[Jack722]

46 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

In a lot of formations, the AMC is the link player between midfield and attack. Most of the time, people do not get the AMC to link properly. I will say it's become quite fiddly (more than it should be) and if you get it right, it works, but if you don't, it bombs badly. Why it bombs badly is probably because the AMC position doesn't look for space well enough or often enough.

When I played and I used an AMC, he was my 2nd best performer in the entire team and 3rd best in terms of goal scoring. In my case, I tried to create the space for the AMC. I often see strange roles in a 4231 for instance where one of the CMs is a BBM. Why on earth? That player is going to get right into the space where the AMC (as a creator) is supposed to be? In a 4231, you have 4 players ahead of the BBM who pose a threat. Do you need another? It compresses space instead of using the CMs as ball recyclers, probing and prodding to send the attacking 4 on their way.

 

 

Do you mind posting the tactic, with profiles of the key players, and then talk about your thinking behind the decisions made? In terms of both the roles and instructions?

Even if it's just about what you have done that made the AMC play well.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jack722

[Jack722]

I just found this thread about an enganche in a 4231 that was used to massive success. I think the tactic that this guy made is pretty much the style that I'd like to create. It uses an enganche as a creative hub and it has a goalscoring striker with more creative wingers.  Although I'm not a massive fan of the excessive possession instructions.

What do you guys think of it? I don't actually have FM20, so I'd quite like to see someone here try out something similar and see if it can function the same way in the new ME.

[HUNT3R]

45 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

Do you mind posting the tactic, with profiles of the key players, and then talk about your thinking behind the decisions made? In terms of both the roles and instructions?

Even if it's just about what you have done that made the AMC play well.

As I posted, I played this. I used an AMC. I'm not currently playing FM, but this was during the last ME update and on FM20. I have the formation (4231) and roles/duties, but they suited my players. I've outlined above, the basics of a 4231 and what I did - used my 2 midfielders to recycle and feed the front 4. They didn't interfere with the front 4 at all. 

I've been using the same basics and concepts (obviously not the same tactic) for years and years now. In this case, it was this.

 

[BigV]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

In a lot of formations, the AMC is the link player between midfield and attack. Most of the time, people do not get the AMC to link properly. I will say it's become quite fiddly (more than it should be) and if you get it right, it works, but if you don't, it bombs badly. Why it bombs badly is probably because the AMC position doesn't look for space well enough or often enough.

When I played and I used an AMC, he was my 2nd best performer in the entire team and 3rd best in terms of goal scoring. In my case, I tried to create the space for the AMC. I often see strange roles in a 4231 for instance where one of the CMs is a BBM. Why on earth? That player is going to get right into the space where the AMC (as a creator) is supposed to be? In a 4231, you have 4 players ahead of the BBM who pose a threat. Do you need another? It compresses space instead of using the CMs as ball recyclers, probing and prodding to send the attacking 4 on their way.

 

 

IRL CAM's usually go into the half spaces and rarely stays completely central. They usually flee towards thr right/left flank where the BBM usually pushes ahead to support using them as a base option to recycle the ball and allow the 10 to move again. Wouldn't it be balanced to have 5 forward and 5 cautiously back? the FB's push on yes but that's dependant on tactics. The cm's still move into attacking thirds even when on defensive duties using Balanced mentalities+ surely thats a statement to say sit back and protect against a counter or similar to that.

The feeling of dropping CM's to DM's acting like double pivots is what it should be like using CM's on defend/support. United for example 1 CM always stays back- still a CM not a DM while the other pushes forward and comes back (BBM) yet there is still a 10 in bruno/mata and they are "fine" with creating chances as the other half space is being occupied by the BBM and not getting in his way but by offering another option, a simple and supportive one. 

[jozza800]

My initially posted tactic my CMs were more of a base not getting forward. Leaving the AMC to try and play in my strikers. 

It just doesn't do anything like that. 

I've posted on numerous occasions that the AMC just won't release the AF when in good positions. 

The game appears to be so much about the transition. Once the oppo are set the forwards don't make little runs and the Amcs don't try small/short through balls. 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, jozza800 said:

Here comes the inevitable drop in form...

I really dont like the way the game shows this. Again SI need to come up with another way of vsualising these collapses not just making the shooting wonky.

I recently already warned you in another topic against hijacking other people threads to discuss your own tactic + complain about your results and performances + on top of that lecturing SI on what they need to do in relation to something that does not belong in this tactical section of the forum. 

Although you did start your own thread about your tactical issue(s) in the meantime, you virtually ignored useful observations about your tactic (including from myself) and only kept complaining and repeating basically the same up until I unfortunately had no choice but to lock the thread because it led to nowhere.

While this thread is about AMCs, it's not about your tactic, your results and your players but about the position of AMC in general and how it can be made to work. 

Therefore, please pay attention to what you are posting, where and how. Thank you.

[jozza800]

That's fair enough ED.

I'll try and keep it on topic.

[JEinchy]

I've been messing around with the midfield three in a 4-2-3-1 and managed to get the AMC to produce a couple of great through passes. 

First example was a CM(D)-CAR(S)-ENG(S) combination. The Enganche had no PPMs. 

Second example was a BWM(S)-DLP(D)-ENG(S) combination. The Enganche had the Tries Killer Balls Often PPM. I was also using low tempo, shorter passing and work ball into box during that game.  

 

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by JEinchy

[Big Yellow]

31 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

I've been messing around with the midfield three in a 4-2-3-1 and managed to get the AMC to produce a couple of great through passes. 

First example was a CM(D)-CAR(S)-ENG(S) combination. The Enganche had no PPMs. 

Second example was a BWM(S)-DLP(D)-ENG(S) combination. The Enganche had the Tries Killer Balls Often PPM. I was also using low tempo, shorter passing and work ball into box during that game.  

 

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@JEinchy second goal was beautiful! Mind posting your TIs? 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Big Yellow

[Jack722]

47 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

I've been messing around with the midfield three in a 4-2-3-1 and managed to get the AMC to produce a couple of great through passes. 

First example was a CM(D)-CAR(S)-ENG(S) combination. The Enganche had no PPMs. 

Second example was a BWM(S)-DLP(D)-ENG(S) combination. The Enganche had the Tries Killer Balls Often PPM. I was also using low tempo, shorter passing and work ball into box during that game.  

 

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That looks really good mate.

I've noticed that you have used a conservative midfield 2, which seems to be the way to go when using a creative AMC. I also feel like it seems important to use an attacking striker. But what about your wide players? And what is the thinking behind the wide players? I worry about using inside forwards and inverted wingers due to them taking up the AMC's space. 

And what is the thinking behind the TI's? Do you think that AMC's play best in more possession based lower tempo sides like yours is? I feel like work ball into the box helps with trying to work a through ball oppertunity, but I'm not sure what else I'd use if I were to build a tactic for the AMC.

Also, which version of FM are you using? I'm using 19 and I wonder if the natural frequency of through balls occur any more or less depending on the version you use.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jack722

[Jack722]

Another common thing I have noticed when people use AMC tactics are the use of one striker dropping deep in a 4312 or diamond. Surely it would be best to have 2 attack duty strikers? This would mean that you have more runners for through balls and less crowding of the AMC area. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

[dekzeh]

This thread has got me thinking about the teams that were successful while using 10's in real world, modernish, footbal, and my mind immediately went to Mourinho's Real Madrid (with Özil as the n10) that won La Liga with over Pep's Barcelona in 2011/12 breaking all sorts of records. That team played some beautiful football, deadly counter attacks and just super quick transitions in general. I'm trying to find some videos or articles on it but it seems there are very few and not much depth in the ones that exist. Anyone know where I can find some, or even some full match replays?

 

The one thing that sticks out to me is a very deep and safe double pivot in Khedira + Xabi Alonso, which goes hand in hand which what seems to work best in FM. I'm particularly interessed by how the fullbacks acted. The left side in special seems very offensive with Marcelo + CR7, whilst Arbeloa at RB was more conservative and di Maria was very hard working, if I tried to translate that to FM terms it'd end very lopsided I think. It also might be worth looking at his Inter side which had Sneijder doing a similar job.

 

If I were to make a very lazy attempt at recreating it, it'd be something like (from right to left): SK-De; FB-Su, BPD-De, CD-De, CWB-Su; BWM-Su, DLP-De; IW-Su, AP-At, IF-At; and then the Benzema/Higuaín role which I have no idea, but I'd start with CF-At.

Edited June 3, 2020 by dekzeh

[JEinchy]

11 hours ago, Big Yellow said:

Mind posting your TIs? 

 

11 hours ago, Jack722 said:

And what is the thinking behind the TI's? Do you think that AMC's play best in more possession based lower tempo sides like yours is? I feel like work ball into the box helps with trying to work a through ball oppertunity, but I'm not sure what else I'd use if I were to build a tactic for the AMC.

I'll answer these together.

The only TIs I'm using for this particular tactic are:

Shorter Passing - I want the midfield to see the ball as much as possible.
Play Out of Defence - My team has good ball-playing defenders and midfielders with good composure and passing, so using this helps me draw teams out.
Overlap Left/Right - Encourages my full-backs to be more aggressive while also curbing some of the reckless tendencies of the Inside Forwards in front of them.
Distribute to Centre Backs - Goes hand-in-hand with Play Out of Defence. Has the secondary effect of moving my midfield deeper during the build-up phase so they get on the ball sooner.
Counter - To increase our attacking threat and ensure we're not just all about passing.
Higher Defensive Line - To help us win the ball higher up the pitch and to get my full-backs joining the attacking transition sooner.
Offside Trap - To condense the space between the CMs and the backline.

Other TIs I like to add at some points during games:

Work Ball Into Box - If my team are taking too many shots from outside the area or from poor angles. This encourages them to slow down and look for better options, if available.
Lower Tempo - If my team is rushing their play too much and we're struggling to hold possession in the opponent's half. Slowing the play down can promote better usage of the ball.
Narrow attacking width - To encourage more passes inside rather than to the flanks. Again, used mostly to encourage better retention of the ball. 
Dribble Less - If the Inside Forwards are getting too adventurous with their dribbling and ignoring better options, I'll use this. 

If I have all four of those on, I'm looking to either see a game out or choke a team to death with passing. 

From what I've experienced, the AMC has better ratings when he's involved a lot in the passing. I'm looking for 50 passes from him at least. If he's having a poor game, that number goes down to 20. That's when I know he's not getting the ball and have to assess why. When I checked out how the AI used the position, the best performers all had high passes per game. De Bruyne at Barcelona was getting 90+ passes from the AMC position, which just seemed

 crazy to me. 

This isn't to say the position won't work in a different type of system. The AM(A) or SS can be potent in high-pressing or counter-attacking set-ups where he'll have space to do his thing in the final third. The AM(S) and even Enganche can work in higher-tempo systems so long as there's movement around them. What I think is important is to identify what you want the position to do and then pick the surrounding roles to accommodate that. So if you want him to be the main creative hub, it might not be such a good idea to use a playmaker or Mezzala behind him because they'll attract more of the ball. If you want him to be a scorer, you have to think about who services him.

The TIs are secondary to this imo. They're not a magic bullet for making the position to work and you'll usually be fine by choosing sensibly for your playing style. All you need for a through ball is a player with the right attributes (Passing, Decisions, Anticipation, Vision, Technique) and a runner into space, which you can achieve in any set-up. 

11 hours ago, Jack722 said:

I've noticed that you have used a conservative midfield 2, which seems to be the way to go when using a creative AMC. I also feel like it seems important to use an attacking striker. But what about your wide players? And what is the thinking behind the wide players? I worry about using inside forwards and inverted wingers due to them taking up the AMC's space. 

In both examples I posted, I was playing with two Inside Forwards on support with overlaps (which puts their individual mentality down to Attacking instead of Very Attacking). This was because I was using an Enganche, who has Holds Position as a hard-coded PI, so he's going to stay central all the time while the IF(s) work the wide and half-spaces. I probably wouldn't use a Winger with one because there'd be nobody in the half-spaces. 

Generally, the majority of wide roles will stay wide unless you've told them to roam or sit narrower. The IF and IW might dribble inside and leave the AMC in their dust as per their instructions, but I think you're fine going with whatever suits your team best. 

11 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Also, which version of FM are you using? I'm using 19 and I wonder if the natural frequency of through balls occur any more or less depending on the version you use.

FM20. It's been a while since I played FM19 but I don't remember there being a massive difference in through ball frequency.

11 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Another common thing I have noticed when people use AMC tactics are the use of one striker dropping deep in a 4312 or diamond. Surely it would be best to have 2 attack duty strikers? This would mean that you have more runners for through balls and less crowding of the AMC area. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

In a narrow formation I'd usually have two attack duties up-front. However, you can play one on support, tell both your strikers to play wide and have the AMC come in through the middle. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by JEinchy

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, JEinchy said:

However, you can play one on support, tell both your strikers to play wide and have the AMC come in through the middle. 

Yeah, this is a fantastic point and one that's often missed. The striker doesn't have to interfere with the AMC. Dropping deep  but also wider, can ensure a nice inward angled run on goal that can be released with a through ball or pulling a defender.

 

[JEinchy]

12 hours ago, dekzeh said:

This thread has got me thinking about the teams that were successful while using 10's in real world, modernish, footbal, and my mind immediately went to Mourinho's Real Madrid (with Özil as the n10) that won La Liga with over Pep's Barcelona in 2011/12 breaking all sorts of records. That team played some beautiful football, deadly counter attacks and just super quick transitions in general. I'm trying to find some videos or articles on it but it seems there are very few and not much depth in the ones that exist. Anyone know where I can find some, or even some full match replays?

 

The one thing that sticks out to me is a very deep and safe double pivot in Khedira + Xabi Alonso, which goes hand in hand which what seems to work best in FM. I'm particularly interessed by how the fullbacks acted. The left side in special seems very offensive with Marcelo + CR7, whilst Arbeloa at RB was more conservative and di Maria was very hard working, if I tried to translate that to FM terms it'd end very lopsided I think. It also might be worth looking at his Inter side which had Sneijder doing a similar job.

 

If I were to make a very lazy attempt at recreating it, it'd be something like (from right to left): SK-De; FB-Su, BPD-De, CD-De, CWB-Su; BWM-Su, DLP-De; IW-Su, AP-At, IF-At; and then the Benzema/Higuaín role which I have no idea, but I'd start with CF-At.

I was curious about this and checked out a video of Ozil's assists while he was at Madrid. It's not a complete picture by any means but it gives us a rough idea of how that attack moved and linked-up. The way Benzema moved to make space for Ronaldo suggests a support role for him, so possibly a Complete Forward (S) or a Pressing Forward (S). Ronaldo was an Inside Forward (A). Ozil's role is trickier because I'd suggest Trequartista, but you know a Mourinho team wouldn't have allowed for one of those, so maybe an Attacking Midfielder (S) with Moves into Channels? That'd leave the right side being an Inverted Winger/Winger. I would have one of the full backs on a defend duty, because Mourinho in those days loved to have one full-back who bombed on (Marcelo, Cole, Maicon) and one who tucked in to form a back three (Arbeloa, Zanetti). 

I'll try an experiment later to see what this kind of set-up can do for the AMC. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by JEinchy

[Jack722]

1 hour ago, JEinchy said:

I was curious about this and checked out a video of Ozil's assists while he was at Madrid. It's not a complete picture by any means but it gives us a rough idea of how that attack moved and linked-up. The way Benzema moved to make space for Ronaldo suggests a support role for him, so possibly a Complete Forward (S) or a Pressing Forward (S). Ronaldo was an Inside Forward (A). Ozil's role is trickier because I'd suggest Trequartista, but you know a Mourinho team wouldn't have allowed for one of those, so maybe an Attacking Midfielder (S) with Moves into Channels? That'd leave the right side being an Inverted Winger/Winger. I would have one of the full backs on a defend duty, because Mourinho in those days loved to have one full-back who bombed on (Marcelo, Cole, Maicon) and one who tucked in to form a back three (Arbeloa, Zanetti). 

I'll try an experiment later to see what this kind of set-up can do for the AMC. 

Here's an article about recreating Mourinho's Inter in FM19. It's interesting that he uses a CMa in the 4231, which seems to go against the general advice. He finishes second, but doesn't pose his player stats so we can't be too sure how well it played for the CAM

[Experienced Defender]

@jozza800 I already warned you against hijacking the topic for discussing your own team/tactic/player(s) and you accepted the warning, but nevertheless keep posting comments in the same manner. Take this as the final warning and please start following the rules (start a separate thread if you want discussion about your own tactical issues or player underperformance).

[jozza800]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@jozza800 I already warned you against hijacking the topic for discussing your own team/tactic/player(s) and you accepted the warning, but nevertheless keep posting comments in the same manner. Take this as the final warning and please start following the rules (start a separate thread if you want discussion about your own tactical issues or player underperformance).

Eh? I was responding to the topic regarding the AMC position. I was updating people on this thread on the progress of my AMC

I fail to see how this isn't relevent to a thread about Advanced Playmakers?

I wasn't bashing the game or complaining.

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, jozza800 said:

Eh? I was responding to the topic regarding the AMC position. I was updating people on this thread on the progress of my AMC

I fail to see how this isn't relevent to a thread about Advanced Playmakers?

I wasn't bashing the game or complaining.

The topic is about getting an AMC to work, not complaining or reporting about him underperforming. What would it be like if everyone who struggles with their AMC used this thread to post comments about that?

[jere_d]

On 02/06/2020 at 17:02, dekzeh said:

 

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I wonder if what you're not seeing in your games is down to other things than just tactics. How is your Team Cohesion? When the Team Cohesion is very good the game states "Players will experience an improvement to their vision and reactions to events unfolding when playing." Also, have you tried the match preparation training schedules? Before every match I set up an 'Attacking Movement' session and a 'Teamwork' session, and I feel the difference it makes in games is very notable.

I think these look more like passing to “safe side” than through balls. I can only see a case concerning number 2 and 5, at a stretch 6.

5 is just the typical punt from the cb 

I would also be stressing at my keeper letting all these goals in 😂😂😂 the angles are 🗑 

[dekzeh]

1 hour ago, jere_d said:

I think these look more like passing to “safe side” than through balls. I can only see a case concerning number 2 and 5, at a stretch 6.

5 is just the typical punt from the cb 

I would also be stressing at my keeper letting all these goals in 😂😂😂 the angles are 🗑 

In general they are passes into space that break a defensive line, I tried to get some variety so the highlights wouldn't all be too similar. 5 is absolutely not a punt from the CB, in fact, that is not even a CB, it is my DLP who happens to have the 'Tries Long Range Passes' PPM.

I had a long experimental season where some things went right and some didn't, now I have decided on a system that is working great in what will be my final season at Monaco, here are some highlights of what I got my AM to do in the first 3 months of the season, I think those will please you more: 

Edit: links got messed up, will fix in a bit. Edit2: fixed

Spoiler

 

 

When I'm done with the season I'll make an update post over the changes I made to the system and also go over what failed in the experimental season I had before.

Here are his stats for the season, unfortunately those assists numbers are heavily inflated by set pieces, he has 5 corner + 1 indirect FK assists in the league and 1 corner + 1 IFK assists in the CL, none in the club world cup (I assume those are the other games under 'Continental'). It's kind of ridiculous though, he's giving amazing supply but my wingers and striker are arguably less clinical than my CB's are in set pieces. Todibo of all people got a hat trick in one game.

Still though, his performance has been simply amazing.

Edited June 6, 2020 by dekzeh

[jere_d]

16 hours ago, dekzeh said:

 

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These look great

maybe 2d didn’t show the chances as well as 3d

[Orikoru]

Number 10 position seems to be extremely hit and miss. I had best results creating a sort of half-shadow striker role (because you can't have an SS on support). So I picked Attacking Midfielder, but added instructions like 'get further forward', 'move into channels' and 'take more risks'. But ultimately I just gave up on number 10s and play a flat 4-4-2 now. Two strikers seems to work better than one striker and an AMC.

[jozza800]

dezkeh's earlier post really helped with getting not just a performance out of the AMC but it's given me some other ideas that I wouldn't have even thought about previously. So I tip my hat to you dezkeh!

I've moved away from the narrow 4-3-1-2. In this set up the AM has a few more options to look for and bit more space to work in.

I know my formation looks ridiculously lop-sided but i've found moving the AM to one side shifts his focus a little and gives him better passing and shooting angles. I've tried to overload the left to give my IF space on the right.

It looks like there is a massive space on the right hand side of the central midfield but the DMsu does a pretty good job of filling the space.

 

 

My AMC's numbers are miles better this year, he's already matched goals and assists from last season and has only played 12 games.

I am still unable to produce the magnificent through balls that dezkeh's gifs show, so I look forward to his next post!

[dekzeh]

So I just finished the season, I was planning on making a huge detailed post with highlights from the goals scored and the performance of Mateo (and his backup, Silvio), but I just played the final game of the season and as you can imagine I'm not looking to delve into it right now

 

Still though, it was by far the best season I had in FM, it felt like I was playing CM0102 at times with how easy and automated it was, but it turns out Jurgen Klopp's Bayern is bloody good in the universe of my save game, having won 4 out of the last 5 Champions Leagues, ironically they have only failed when the final was at their place. My goal of becoming the best manager in the world is made kinda hard when Klopp has won 6 Champions Leagues in 10 years with two different clubs (he stayed at Liverpool till 2028, then joining Bayern). 

But I digress, before I go too much out of topic, I'll go back to talking about the number 10 role

The base tactic I went with for the season I largely similar to the one I had before:

The visible differences here are: two wingers, as I said I would try, and WB's on Automatic instead of Support. PIs on the Wingers to 'Get Further Forward', BWM to 'Shoot Less Often' and the AM to 'Dribble More' 'Roam From Position' and 'Take More Risks'. The WB's on Au instead of Su are just the same on a Positive mentality, just without the 'Get Further Forward' PI, which made them work better with the Wingers. 

Now, to explain why I end up with two wingers I need to go a bit into depth with what I found about the wide forward roles in conjunction with width and what I wanted from them.

My setup is very aggressive, offensively and defensively, and focused on transitions and through balls, so I need my wide men to move a lot vertically. That was the key, it sounds almost too obvious, to get vertical passes I needed the players around my creator to move vertically.

The Inverted Winger was then a no-go, as their movement is mostly lateral, they are primarily creator and not runners, even on Attack duty, they didn't give me the movement I wanted.

The Winger does give me the vertical movement that I wanted, but it is too wide, it doesn't get into deadly positions and while they would get to the end of through balls the risk/reward wasn't there because if you're constantly going for risky, 50-50 passes, you need a goal scoring chance when your pass goes through, not just to get into an ok position to cross.

The Inside Forward is the most obvious one, and it definitely works, the issue I have with it is: it is too attacking. It truly is a forward and it shows. It threw off the balance of my tactic, it was too far away from my wingbacks, leaving a huge gap there and making my pressing game worse. Another issue I have, especially with IF-At but even on Su it was an issue at times, they get forward too early and then they sit still there, it is really annoying, as I'd expect them to be more dynamic, come back, receive a ball, play a one-two, make a run again, but no, they just sit there. If you miss the opportunity to pass to him when he makes his run, you're stuck with a second AF, just pushing the defense-line back, which was a waste to me. 

Another thing I tried: a 4231 Narrow with 2 Shadow Strikers and the results were very similar to the IFs but obviously much worse defensively.

So I went back to what worked with my winger in the previous season, and the main difference was the width. When I was experimenting I just wanted to get the most out of the AM even if it hurt my tactic a little overall, I thought going to a Fairly Wide width (the standard on a Positive mentality) would get him more space, which it did a little, but the killer passes to my winger weren't the same anymore because my winger was staying truly wide, past the fullback. As I went back to a narrower shape, the winger was now staying inside the fullback, and making his runs in the channel, and that was perfect. You can see a lot of this movement in the gifs I posted in my previous post, it was very common in this season playing with two wingers.

I did get very good results with an IF-Su told to sit narrower with the Overlap active, especially in transitions it was by far the best looking football I got, you'd need a defend duty on the DM on that side, but it was great. It is my second favorite setup and if I were to revisit this system or similar I'd definitely give it a go, probably with it on one side and a Winger on the other side.

With all that said though, this is what got the AM working within my team and system, I'm sure there are a lot other ways of doing so. Here are the stats for my starting XI and back then backup XI for the season

Yes, note how my 40+ goals striker was injuried for the CL final. Ain't that nice. And those unhappy players which I'll forever believe caused me to lose the CL final are only unhappy because my DoF is an idiot and got them unhappy over contract talks just days before the CL finals. Contract talks he is handling because I accepted the Liverpool job months in advance to the end of season and have no control over it, so maybe it is just my fault.. 

But as you can see, Mateo as the starting AM had the highest rating in the team, topped the assists and was 4th highest scorer, second highest assists was the backup AM, Silvio. 

As I finish writing this I noticed I forgot to mention one important thing: the role of the AM. It is AM-At just as it was before, but I have tried other things, to make it short..

AM-Su: It is the same, but deeper, doesn't get into dangerous positions often enough and sometimes comes way way too deep for my liking

AP-Su: It comes even deeper than the AM-Su, it was better however due to being a ball magnet as a playmaker

AP-At: It's actually really good, I used it a lot during the season. Specifically: against formations without a player in the DM strata or very good defensively minded players in the MC strata. Also a very common switch against teams that tried to press my defense was to switch the DLP into a HB and the AM-At into an AP-At, made playing through the press easier and once we did we had the prime creator into loads of space, this switch led to demolitions such as

 

And

[BigV]

I've found that dropping your CM's to DM positions can help massively. Im only on the demo (cause of ME issues and other stuff), made a few half saves for testing formations and stuff to get the AMC to work.

CM's regardless of their role are way too close to the AMC anyways imo and that shouldn't be the case. When you drop your CM's to DM's their positioning is closer to where the CM spots are- tried it for about 5 games and saw after every game their avg positions was and their heat map, all of them showed that they were doing it. DLP-S next to a BWM-S fitted perfectly and saw alot more better results and playing. 

The CAM in madderson/bruno was still a bit meehhh though, they're too deep now they have supposingly more room, you want them in the attacking phases even on support, once they get the ball they pass rather than take it forward most of the times while AM drive the ball and dribble their way forward. 

Statistical figures aren't great on this but I do see a slight improvement in their play when dropping CMs to DM's, they're more creative but I still see the central play still a huge factor in why they don't fully flourish like other roles do in positions. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

This is a wonderful thread, I've really enjoyed following on but haven't found time to contribute 

Saw this today and wanted to share.

 

 

On 29/05/2020 at 00:33, dekzeh said:

I find the reason many people struggle to get their AM performing is that they don't give him any space to produce anything. It's more often than not seen in the 4-2-3-1, pairing with inside forwards and inverted wingers, and thoses + one or both of the CMs pushing give the AM no space to operate, he'll often receive the ball in a very cluttered area and be asked to make magic happen (risky passes, dribble more are all often seen in those roles) and then what most often happens is.. he loses the ball. A lot. And that will drag his ratings down. If you want the AM to be more effective you need to give him space to operate, that is key.

Here's my current N10, guy who broke the record for average rating and assists lasts season

You can see he's good but not out of the world extraordinary, his other PPMs that don't show are: Tries Tricks, Cuts Inside From Both Wings and Likes To Beat Man Repeatedly.

Here's his stats from last season, his first at the club

 

So, what did I do to get him space to operate? Here's my tactic:

 

His PIs are: Roam From Position and Take More Risks

Some key ideas: the double pivot being in the DM strata, deeper than normal. The striker being in a role that pushes the defensive line back, as opposed to dropping deep, and at least one the wide man playing actually wide, as a winger. I want to experiment with 2 wingers but don't have the personal yet, and I also don't want to become too one dimensional.

I'll add the note that he is my set piece taker btw, so those assist numbers are a little inflated, but not much, as I don't focus much on it and don't even touch the set piece section, just let the game do it's thing as otherwise it's too abusive I find. But anyway, here's an assist of his in the Champions League Final, when we were 2-0 down against Tottenham. Notice in how much space he is when he receives the ball. Ortiz is my DLP on the DM strata, and as the Tottenham players press him they leave a huge gap for Mateo to operate in, and he ends up finding the kind of pass I often see people in this forum complain that never happens in FM20, beautiful goal.

This is also a brilliant post 

I follow very similar principles with Ozil in my Arsenal save.

• Aubameyang and Lacazette drive forward ahead of him.
• Ceballos and Torreira sit deeper in midfield.
• Tierney and Bellerin create width.
• Ozil is totally free to roam and create.

Far from perfect, but it's a lot of fun!

[dekzeh]

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

This is a wonderful thread, I've really enjoyed following on but haven't found time to contribute 

Saw this today and wanted to share.

 

 

This is also a brilliant post 

I follow very similar principles with Ozil in my Arsenal save.

• Aubameyang and Lacazette drive forward ahead of him.
• Ceballos and Torreira sit deeper in midfield.
• Tierney and Bellerin create width.
• Ozil is totally free to roam and create.

Far from perfect, but it's a lot of fun!

Thanks for the kind words, I've been following and lurking through a lot of your threads for ages and they've undoubtfully been very helpful, perharps even influenced how I got to the conclusion to a setup that is vaguely similar to how you'd setup, but with a different tweaks and preferences.

 

This save got me quite bored, I got Monaco as far as I could take them, and joining Liverpool after that CL defeat just felt wrong. I think it's time for a new save, and I've been looking at Derby for a long term youth based one. Went through their squad earlier today and I have a couple ideas on how to get Rooney playing as an Enganche, so I will give that a go and will come with an update in a week or so.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

8 hours ago, dekzeh said:

Thanks for the kind words, I've been following and lurking through a lot of your threads for ages and they've undoubtfully been very helpful, perharps even influenced how I got to the conclusion to a setup that is vaguely similar to how you'd setup, but with a different tweaks and preferences.

 

This save got me quite bored, I got Monaco as far as I could take them, and joining Liverpool after that CL defeat just felt wrong. I think it's time for a new save, and I've been looking at Derby for a long term youth based one. Went through their squad earlier today and I have a couple ideas on how to get Rooney playing as an Enganche, so I will give that a go and will come with an update in a week or so.

Thank you  Yea, changing clubs is a minefield which I rarely navigate successfully.

This thread is interesting to me personally as classic number 10s are one of my favourite stereotypes of player, but - at the same time - don't necessarily fit into the way I like to play; which makes a very interesting dilemma.

There's an interesting article somewhere about the Barcelona 4-3-3 and how a number of "Classic 10s" have either failed - Maradona, Riquelme etc. - or had to adapt -  by playing wide, in midfield or up front eg. Ronaldinho, Messi, Iniesta. I am racking my brains to think of where I read it now.

[jozza800]

17 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

This is a wonderful thread, I've really enjoyed following on but haven't found time to contribute 

Saw this today and wanted to share.

 

 

This is also a brilliant post 

I follow very similar principles with Ozil in my Arsenal save.

• Aubameyang and Lacazette drive forward ahead of him.
• Ceballos and Torreira sit deeper in midfield.
• Tierney and Bellerin create width.
• Ozil is totally free to roam and create.

Far from perfect, but it's a lot of fun!

Interesting. Alot of people on here would say playing 3 attack duties on your forwards is a big no-no!

What do you do against deep teams that dont allow your AF any space to run into?

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

28 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

Interesting. Alot of people on here would say playing 3 attack duties on your forwards is a big no-no!

What do you do against deep teams that dont allow your AF any space to run into?

 

They don't understand duties properly  A duty alone, doesn't tell you much without the team mentality. For example, an Attack duty in a Defensive system would be much less attacking than an Attack duty in an Attacking system.

In this instance the bigger risk is the combination of Attack duties with an Attacking system  it's really an experiment as I rarely use out-and-out forwards so please don't take this is gospel.

Consider that Striker mentalities are more pronounced; a striker on Attack duty is more attacking than other attacking players and - conversely - a striker on Support duty is more cautious than other attacking players (hence how you get the False 9 movement). Therefore if you have two strikers, one on Attack and one on Support, one is actually considerably more attacking than the other. That might be what you want, but at least be aware of what you're doing rather than just choosing it because that's what everybody does and it is very logical.

In this case, I want Auba and Laca attacking together, driving forward ahead of Ozil. I don't want them dropping into his space and I don't want them isolated. Laca is more of an all-rounder so I want him holding up the ball and linking play (he actually has more direct assists than Ozil right now) and Auba is more direct.

The Ozil role, however, I would much prefer to be on a support role - as I want him in that space behind them. I do, however, want him to be a playmaker so my only Support option is Advanced Playmaker (Support) which is hard coded to Hold Position, which I really don't want in a league full of double pivot midfields. My options are:

1. Use the Treq and make do with the attack duty
2. Use the AP(S) and make do with holding position
3. Use the AM(S) and make do without being a playmaker

Only played a few games so haven't made my mind up yet. Also I rarely use any of them so it's really trial and error.

The idea is that the set up should create a lot of space in attack.

1. There are not many advanced players; therefore they have more space.
2. If the opposition defence pushes up, they give Auba and Laca space in behind.
3. If the opposition defence sits deep, they give Ozil space in front of them.
4. Beyond these 3 the team presses collectively (apart from Ozil ) hoping to win the ball high up and start a direct attack whilst the defence is disorganised.

So far, we're really hitting big sides hard but struggling to break down smaller ones.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I do, however, want him to be a playmaker so my only Support option is Advanced Playmaker (Support) which is hard coded to Hold Position, which I really don't want in a league full of double pivot midfields.

Not sure that's correct, the only AMC role with Hold Position is Enganche. You can add it to Advanced Playmaker manually, but it's not hard-coded.

That said, sort of replicating the Trequartista with adding Roam From Position and Close Down Less might still be a good idea against DM formations. With two Defend duties behind him, I'd give Ozil freedom to look for space, but would want him on Positive, rather than Very Attacking individual mentality.

[josel15]

32 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Not sure that's correct, the only AMC role with Hold Position is Enganche. You can add it to Advanced Playmaker manually, but it's not hard-coded.

That said, sort of replicating the Trequartista with adding Roam From Position and Close Down Less might still be a good idea against DM formations. With two Defend duties behind him, I'd give Ozil freedom to look for space, but would want him on Positive, rather than Very Attacking individual mentality.

He is playing FM18 tho, perhaps it still existed then?

 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, is that a current day databse for fm18?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, josel15 said:

He is playing FM18 tho, perhaps it still existed then?

 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, is that a current day databse for fm18?

Ah, yes. Sorry. FM2018 

[Nick_CB]

https://www.thehighertempopress.com/2017/03/choose-best-player-role-number-10/

 

A great guide

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

How to Break Down Two-Banks of Four, by Mesut Özil

[skyline72]

8 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

How to Break Down Two-Banks of Four, by Mesut Özil

Ozil's vision is really one of a kind. Just like the underated, Guti. 

[Jack722]

I made this thread after struggling massively with the AMC role. However, I’ve since downloaded the FM20 demo (I was previously on 19) and the first save I’ve done, my AMC became the star player.

I was managing Man Utd and Bruno Fernandes was the AMC in a 4231. Before a fairly significant injury, he had the most player of the match awards in the prem, as well as 7 goals + 4 assists in 14 games. I definitely think he could’ve gotten more assists, but I was doing a youth save, where I was giving lots of game time to some lower ability players (Greenwood, Gomes, James), so there was some dodging finishing involved.

i took some advice from some of the earlier posts in the thread, mostly @dekzeh and @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!. the system was basically based on giving the CAM as much room as possible. This meant having an AFa instead of a role that drops deep, and 2 CM’s on defend duty. I also added the team instruction to play wider, so that my wingers would stretch the defence more, and not get in the way of my CAM. The other idea was to give my CAM forward options to aim for, these came in the form of the AFa and an IFa who would consistently try to make runs in behind the defence.

This is what we lined up as:

                             AFa

IFa                      AMs                   IWs

                  CMd.             BWMd

WBs.          BPD.           BPD.         WBs

 

I reckon the instructions also helped Bruno to perform. They were: regroup + GK distribute quickly + higher tempo + be more expressive + play wider + counter 

If your pressing teams high and dominating the ball, then the opposition will naturally be pinned back and defend deep and narrow, killing any space in the number 10 ‘zone’. Defending passively allows the other team to play, coming out of there defensive shell more, whereas playing quickly and playing on the counter means we look to exploit that space they leave before it closes again.

Sadly my demo ran out, and Bruno has been injured for a fair amount of the season, so I couldn’t fairly compare his creative stats like key passes etc. But due to our young front line, I’m sure that Bruno’s expected assists would’ve been higher that his actual assists

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Jack722

[Finners]

@jozza800 The answer is mezzalas! Oh I do love mezzalas.

I have a very similar tactic in my own current save and whilst it's not perfect it sounds like it's definitely getting more out of my AMC than you're getting. I am absolutely determined to get a diamond to work with a CAM as productive as possible and I've been keeping an eye on this thread on and off and just noticed your post.

Where you've got two vanilla CMs sat, presumably holding shape, next to your DLP - I've got a pair of mezzalas either side of him (I occasionally swap one up to a carrilero as they're less aggressive if I'm concerned about getting overrun) and the difference is that they move higher up in to the wide areas left vacant by a lack of wingers. It not only gives the CAM more passing options but it also helps stretch the defence so that they're not all dog-piling your number 10.

Another note is that your DLFS is likely to be dropping in to a lot of the spaces your CAM takes up. You say you want through balls but at the same time, you've only got one out right through ball option at the moment and that's your AF. I know conventional wisdom is generally not to overload attacking mentalities but think about what you're after here, you want guys for him to slot the ball through to, right? Well then you need guys who are moving forwards. Why have a DLF S and an traditional number 10, it's basically the same role? Why is he there?

I've got a CF alongside my AF, I've even played with two AFs before (although that tends to encourage a more direct game, particularly without 'work ball in to box') both an A and S duty work, I had an S in my first season. Both of my forwards have the instruction 'stay wider' as I want them to hover around the channels, sucking defenders with them, hopefully creating a vacuum for my AMC to have more space ahead of him. 

My CAM's stats weren't as impressive as some of the others in this thread, 34 starts, 4 goals, 14 assists, avg rating 7.49. If my strikers weren't so garbage and if finishing wasn't so borked in FM20, he'd have had a lot more assists. The amount of through balls poked through between opposition centre backs was nuts. In the current season I've been tinkering a LOT but he's still managed 51 key passes, 13 chances created and 8 assists in 17 games so far with an avg rating of 7.47.

It's by no means the finished product but hopefully that gives you some things to think about from someone who's on a similar journey.

 

edit: apologies to the Italian people for the horrendous spelling.

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Finners

[jozza800]

Some great posts from OttA, Jack and Finners.

@ Finners - I've moved away from my narrow system. I'm please that you're getting output from your AMc. I've ended up moving mine to a CM(at) position in a midfield 3. Whilst his assists are still pretty poor he is at least now scoring goals and contributing and his avg rating has gone from 6.8 from his first couple of seasons to 7.4 this.

I will tinker some more in getting my AMC to work.

It's great that you guys are getting production out of your number 10s and shows that the postion is viable and that it is clearly something I (and many others) are doing wrong.

[Finners]

18 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

Some great posts from OttA, Jack and Finners.

@ Finners - I've moved away from my narrow system. I'm please that you're getting output from your AMc. I've ended up moving mine to a CM(at) position in a midfield 3. Whilst his assists are still pretty poor he is at least now scoring goals and contributing and his avg rating has gone from 6.8 from his first couple of seasons to 7.4 this.

I will tinker some more in getting my AMC to work.

It's great that you guys are getting production out of your number 10s and shows that the postion is viable and that it is clearly something I (and many others) are doing wrong.

 

Yeah sorry, I noticed another post of yours with a changed shape. 

People are right when they talk about creating space for your AMC to operate in but it's also about the options he has in front of him, the more there are the more productive he's going to be.

Another problem I think for people with the AMC role in this version is that the majority of people seem to be playing fast, high pressing, attacking systems. When you play this way, your CAM tends to get bypassed with the ball going straight to your forwards and he ends up just being an observer. 

[jozza800]

Some great numbers there OttA!

Edited June 17, 2020 by Experienced Defender
misuses the thread to discuss his own tactic despite a number of warnings and even though he already has his own topic + inappropriate phrase used

[Nol1968]

I think the problem that people are having with having a central, playmaking #10, can be grouped in with other things like how pressing/gegenpressing is overpowered, that low-block/space orientated defensive tactics often are disastrous, and how Mezzalas can be overpowered. Most of this is that these things are tactics that are bringing success to teams tactically IRL. The best teams in the world rn (Liverpool, Man City especially) look to create in the Half space. Thats one of the reasons why Mezzalas work so well in FM20. What I'm trying to do in my saves is gradually transition from a system that utilizes the players that i have in a system I know will work well with the tactics of the times (I use a Mezzala, I press high and urgently) and overtime I train, promote and buy players better suited to my preferred style of play (space orientated defense, highly attacking fullbacks, lots of width).

Apologies for how poorly written my above novel is. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Nol1968

[Bruce Drundrige]

There are posts earlier in the thread that discourage the use of a B2B midfielder in the midfield two of the 4231 in case it gets in the way of the AMC, but I'm sure I've seen plenty of EPL versions of this formation use this role in-game (next to a DLP) which is why I've tried it occasionally.

That conversation does remind me that yes those two (IRL) are supposed to provide a defensive platform or base and not necessarily join in the attack. However I do see LOTS of DLP and Mezzala combinations, in fact it seems to be the default option of the 'big' clubs in my save.

It almost feels overpowered when you look at the positioning of the Mezzala, it's like a front five and can be very hard to defend against and I would have thought (based on my initial comment) that a Mezz would impact on the positioning of the '3' in the 4231...but not when you are Liverpool and playing against me...!

In fact, Klopp's Liverpool (2025) basically play with a front 6 (because neither of his midfield two are defensive players), plus the overlapping full-backs, it's absurdly difficult to counteract I've found.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Edinton

[Bruce Drundrige]

18 hours ago, Finners said:

@jozza800 The answer is mezzalas! Oh I do love mezzalas.

I have a very similar tactic in my own current save and whilst it's not perfect it sounds like it's definitely getting more out of my AMC than you're getting. I am absolutely determined to get a diamond to work with a CAM as productive as possible and I've been keeping an eye on this thread on and off and just noticed your post.

Where you've got two vanilla CMs sat, presumably holding shape, next to your DLP - I've got a pair of mezzalas either side of him (I occasionally swap one up to a carrilero as they're less aggressive if I'm concerned about getting overrun) and the difference is that they move higher up in to the wide areas left vacant by a lack of wingers. It not only gives the CAM more passing options but it also helps stretch the defence so that they're not all dog-piling your number 10.

Another note is that your DLFS is likely to be dropping in to a lot of the spaces your CAM takes up. You say you want through balls but at the same time, you've only got one out right through ball option at the moment and that's your AF. I know conventional wisdom is generally not to overload attacking mentalities but think about what you're after here, you want guys for him to slot the ball through to, right? Well then you need guys who are moving forwards. Why have a DLF S and an traditional number 10, it's basically the same role? Why is he there?

I've got a CF alongside my AF, I've even played with two AFs before (although that tends to encourage a more direct game, particularly without 'work ball in to box') both an A and S duty work, I had an S in my first season. Both of my forwards have the instruction 'stay wider' as I want them to hover around the channels, sucking defenders with them, hopefully creating a vacuum for my AMC to have more space ahead of him. 

My CAM's stats weren't as impressive as some of the others in this thread, 34 starts, 4 goals, 14 assists, avg rating 7.49. If my strikers weren't so garbage and if finishing wasn't so borked in FM20, he'd have had a lot more assists. The amount of through balls poked through between opposition centre backs was nuts. In the current season I've been tinkering a LOT but he's still managed 51 key passes, 13 chances created and 8 assists in 17 games so far with an avg rating of 7.47.

It's by no means the finished product but hopefully that gives you some things to think about from someone who's on a similar journey.

 

edit: apologies to the Italian people for the horrendous spelling.

 

I"m in 2025 and Sarri is PSG manager playing essentially this system. I've battered them at home but been battered away, and he canters through Ligue 1 (obvs).

He has Mbappe and Martial up front, Havertz behind them, Bernardo Silva as his DLP and Pogba as one of his Mez. When they are good, they are frightening...

 

[wixxi]

7 hours ago, Edinton said:

 I would have thought (based on my initial comment) that a Mezz would impact on the positioning of the '3' in the 4231...but not when you are Liverpool and playing against me...!

Why would it impact the positioning of the 3 in a 4231? If you are playing with inside forwards sure, but if you are using wingers and essentially any 10 role the mezzala would slot in nicely in the halfspace with the winger and the 10 flanking either side of him. The reason you would avoid using a mezzala in a 4231 is because a midfield 2 demands a double pivot (if you are playing against similar competition, if they are packing 10 men into their box it's a different story) and more often than not the mezzala will abandon his positional duties in the double pivot to push into the final third due to hardcoded behaviour + multiple hardcoded movement PIs. If you are trying to get the most out of a 10 then I can see potential issues with it, but even still the mezzala could help to draw players away from the 10 as he drifts into the channels.

[Bruce Drundrige]

It's not usually me playing the 4231, it's the AI opposition and yes I agree I suspect the Mezzala is used when it's bigger sides needing the extra man from deep to break down defences. They are usually using Inside Forwards on both sides as well though (I've just played a game where that exact system was used).

My original point in relation to the comment about B2Bs in the 4231 I suppose is, if it's not advisable then why do all the top teams in the game use it??

[crusadertsar]

19 minutes ago, Edinton said:

It's not usually me playing the 4231, it's the AI opposition and yes I agree I suspect the Mezzala is used when it's bigger sides needing the extra man from deep to break down defences. They are usually using Inside Forwards on both sides as well though (I've just played a game where that exact system was used).

My original point in relation to the comment about B2Bs in the 4231 I suppose is, if it's not advisable then why do all the top teams in the game use it??

There are many things that AI teams use that is not advisable. I have seen AI use all three of their forwards on attack duty in a 4-2-3-1 often before. Is that ever a good idea in any well-balanced tactic? Definitely not. Yet AI uses it. It's not perfect.

Edited June 18, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Bruce Drundrige]

It might not be advisable, but I see it from most of the top sides in the game who are all dominating their leagues and the UCL. Hence why I bring it up - conventional wisdom is one thing but the AI usage seems to be another.

For example, how attacking is this???