A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker

[ThomasHK1979]

I can see people changing the roles of the two DMs a lot. What is In your experience combination?

[ThomasHK1979]

I’ve noticed that when you move your two midfielders to DM positions you get some red zones in the midfield. But if you let them stay in the CM positions you are more covered with green zones all around. 
isn’t that a problem ?

[Kolarov's missing tooth]

2 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I’ve noticed that when you move your two midfielders to DM positions you get some red zones in the midfield. But if you let them stay in the CM positions you are more covered with green zones all around. 
isn’t that a problem ?

I wouldn't pay too much attention to those red zones. I've tried using 4-2(DM)-3-1 formations in the past and can't say I've noticed significant problems. I did have relatively positive roles in the DM slots (DLP-S and SV-S were favoured combination) which may have helped - I can see this would be more of a problem with say, and anchorman and DLP-D, especially the players in the AM line are on attacking duties, Also had fairly forward thinking full backs too.

[scratchmonkey]

3 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

I’ve noticed that when you move your two midfielders to DM positions you get some red zones in the midfield. But if you let them stay in the CM positions you are more covered with green zones all around. 
isn’t that a problem ?

it depends on many things:

• The individual players at the DM and AM positions -- do they have Get Forward  or Stay Back PPMs, or Run With the Bal, or Drops Deep to Get Balll? If your DMs like to move up the pitch and your AM likes to drop back, those red squares aren't likely to be an issue -- the opposite way, they'll become even worse.
• The roles that you pick -- an AM(A) is more likely to leave a lot of space behind him and a SS even more so, while an AM(S) is more likely to play deeper and help alleviate the gap between the DM and AM strata. Similarly, a Segundo Volante in the DM position has their entire remit to burst upfield vertically, which can match very well with a 4-2-3-1 DM Wide setup.
• How vertically compact your team is playing -- the more compact you are, the smaller the gap will be, and vice versa.

[RVP32]

I know this is mostly about CAM but seeing the title, I want to ask if someone has tried Advanced Playmakers on the wings?

I'm a big fan of Inside Forwards usually but the way the match engine works, it's sad to see that using it sacrifices a lot (And I'm kind of miffed that the creator aspect that the role used to have when using more winger-like Inside Forwards has kinda been taken away and given to Inverted Wingers.). As such, I've been tweaking a lot with not only roles for creative midfielders but also for wingers. Mostly also cause it seems to be a trend irl as well to put creative forces out on the wings. (Ziyech when he used to play for Ajax or Berghuis for Feyenoord, to name 2 examples from my own country.)

I'm contemplating using Rodrygo and Hazard on my Madrid save (Which is just a big-team save for the fun of it before FM2021 drops) cause Hazard in particular looks like he'd be good there, but I'm not sure how effective it would be as I feel the Advanced Playmaker role itself isn't as good anymore. (Which is a shame, cause Thiago was unreal for me in Fm12 in that role.

[Experienced Defender]

@RVP32 An AP on a flank is a nice role in and of itself, but this topic is specifically about the AMC and how to make it work. So if you have a suggestion for the OP in that particular respect, you are more than welcome. 

However, if you want to discuss a wide AP (or your own tactic using it), then please start a separate thread in this (tactical) section of the forum 

[RPM_01]

I've managed to have decent success with the formation below -

Stats of the AP (yes I paid £98M, probably worth it!) -

 

[camoulton21]

I've enjoyed reading this thread and have a few thoughts to add to the discussion.

I was recently reading the old mechanising the play articles for the first time and came across this article, "Mechanising the Play - Stretching the Midfield". The article basically comes to the same conclusion that many in this thread have discussed, changing your CMs to DMs gives the AMC more space in midfield which allows them to play better. However, I think the article explained the reason why this tactical change creates space in midfield which I'd like to share. It uses a quote from Michael Cox to explain how Wenger's Arsenal teams created space for Bergkamp (the teams AMC or at the very least the player that attacked in between the lines like an AMC). Basically, a pacey striker gave the team depth with runs in behind (Wright, Anelka, Henry) which forces the oppositions back four to defend deep and the two holding players (Viera, Petit, Gilberto) deep starting position encouraged the oppositions midfield to press up the pitch to close them down. This widened the gap between the oppositions midfield and defensive lines creating space for Bergkamp (the AMC) to operate in. This point has already been made in this thread, but for me at least, the explanation of decreasing the compactness of the opposition midfield and defensive line through player positioning and movement really helped me to understand why people are finding success with the 4-2-3-1DM

I think the discussion about whether number 10s are outdated is a really interesting one. The performances of Muller, Bruno Fernandes and Papu Gomez makes me think that the position isn't dead just yet. These players also go against the idea of number 10s being luxury, lazy players as they are all hardworking and defensively capable as well as some of the best chance creators in Europe

What do people make of using the number 10 as an offensive pivot using the 'hold up the ball' PI? Either as a physical presence like someone like Fellaini or more of a wall pass recipient. I know that Guido has explored this on his website Strikerless dubbing it the targetganche. Has anyone tried this themselves? Does anyone have any ideas on how to make such a thing work? I think it's an interesting way to utilise the AMC that hasn't bee touched on here

Edited September 7, 2020 by camoulton21

[AlexJames]

AP is my albatross in FM2019. I've tried a variety of different players with varying PPMs as an AP in both 4231 and 4411 formations, and the end result is generally the same. The AP will drop deep into my midfield, often taking up space occupied by by BBM or BWM. They will then do one of following things:

- Stand still and play a 5 yard sideways pass to one of the above mentioned players, if "dribble more" is not selected

- Dribble the ball until they are tackled by the opposition DM or CB, if "dribble more" is selected 

- Smash a 40 yard ball into space to noone in particular, even with low tempo, short passes and pass into space deselected

- on the small chance they find themselves on the edge of the box with the opportunity to play a through ball to a forward/ winger, they'll either spray the ball out to the opposite wing, or under hit the pass straight to the opposition CB

These are all good players with good passing/ vision/ decisions stats.

I've had slightly more success playing these players out of position as a Mez, but it's very frustrating trying to get performance from an AP

[Sharkn20]

On 07/09/2020 at 08:37, alexclack said:

AP is my albatross in FM2019. I've tried a variety of different players with varying PPMs as an AP in both 4231 and 4411 formations, and the end result is generally the same. The AP will drop deep into my midfield, often taking up space occupied by by BBM or BWM. They will then do one of following things:

- Stand still and play a 5 yard sideways pass to one of the above mentioned players, if "dribble more" is not selected

- Dribble the ball until they are tackled by the opposition DM or CB, if "dribble more" is selected 

- Smash a 40 yard ball into space to noone in particular, even with low tempo, short passes and pass into space deselected

- on the small chance they find themselves on the edge of the box with the opportunity to play a through ball to a forward/ winger, they'll either spray the ball out to the opposite wing, or under hit the pass straight to the opposition CB

These are all good players with good passing/ vision/ decisions stats.

I've had slightly more success playing these players out of position as a Mez, but it's very frustrating trying to get performance from an AP

I didn't have your experience at all, my AP is the motor of my offense, always getting 7.10+ Overall rating on the season from them.

[karanhsingh]

I tried very hard to create a 3-4-1-2 tactic with Aston Villa, playing Grealish as the AM. Just did not work. Tried him as AP and TEQ as well. I think he went around 10 games without a goal or assist, and generally being absent on the pitch. 

My strikers were a targetman and an AF, and the two sitting midfielders were a CAR and a BBM or DLP. 

Pulled him back into midfield to play a flat 3-5-2, he is AP(a) in the middle with one flanking CAR and one BBM. Since then he has hit double figures for goals and assists and is averaging 7.5! 

I know it's not impossible to get the AM position working but it really shouldn't be this hard. 

[xavierm]

Il y a 10 heures, karanhsingh a dit :

I tried very hard to create a 3-4-1-2 tactic with Aston Villa, playing Grealish as the AM. Just did not work. Tried him as AP and TEQ as well. I think he went around 10 games without a goal or assist, and generally being absent on the pitch. 

My strikers were a targetman and an AF, and the two sitting midfielders were a CAR and a BBM or DLP. 

Pulled him back into midfield to play a flat 3-5-2, he is AP(a) in the middle with one flanking CAR and one BBM. Since then he has hit double figures for goals and assists and is averaging 7.5! 

I know it's not impossible to get the AM position working but it really shouldn't be this hard. 

Main problem I see with the offensive triangle AMC - 2 ST and CAR/BBM or DLP is the lack of link between midfield and attack. I don't find BBM to provide good transitions from back to front. I had much more success with Mez(s) role.

Another problem I encoutered with 3-4-1-2 was that once the ball got to WB, it quite never involved the AMC, even when transitioning to the other side of the pitch. I had to lower WB mentalities for them to combine with MC / AMC.

 

[karanhsingh]

1 hour ago, xavierm said:

Main problem I see with the offensive triangle AMC - 2 ST and CAR/BBM or DLP is the lack of link between midfield and attack. I don't find BBM to provide good transitions from back to front. I had much more success with Mez(s) role.

Another problem I encoutered with 3-4-1-2 was that once the ball got to WB, it quite never involved the AMC, even when transitioning to the other side of the pitch. I had to lower WB mentalities for them to combine with MC / AMC.

I understand your point but that's counter intuitive to most of the feedback in this thread to play a deeper midfield two in order to effectively create more space for the AM to operate. 

The wing backs seem to pass quite a bit to the midfielders now. But yes when I played an AM he just got isolated. 

I just feel it shouldn't be so hard to make this position work! 

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

I tried very hard to create a 3-4-1-2 tactic with Aston Villa, playing Grealish as the AM. Just did not work. Tried him as AP and TEQ as well. I think he went around 10 games without a goal or assist, and generally being absent on the pitch. 

My strikers were a targetman and an AF, and the two sitting midfielders were a CAR and a BBM or DLP

I think this can at least partly explain why your AMC struggled - he had another ball-magnet both behind (DLP) and in front of himself (TM). Think about that (among other things).

That's why I always say - never consider tactical elements in isolation (whether roles/duties or instructions). 

[camoulton21]

How would you set-up a tactic in a 3-4-1-2 then @Experienced Defender? This thread has touched on the AMC in 4-2-3-1 formations but less so in narrow systems or systems with a forward triangle. Any advice would be greatly appreciated

[Experienced Defender]

12 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

How would you set-up a tactic in a 3-4-1-2 then @Experienced Defender? This thread has touched on the AMC in 4-2-3-1 formations but less so in narrow systems or systems with a forward triangle. Any advice would be greatly appreciated

I guess you are actually referring to the 5212 (with WBs)? 

[camoulton21]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I guess you are actually referring to the 5212 (with WBs)? 

Yeah, wingbacks not wide midfielders

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Yeah, wingbacks not wide midfielders

Of course, the tactical setup would depend on the style of play, so it can vary accordingly, But let's imagine you want to play a more possession-oriented style (and have the right type of players):

DLFsu    AF

AMat

DLPsu     CAR

CWBsu                            WBsu

CDde  CDst  BPDde

SKsu

Balanced/Positive - shorter passing, play out of defence, overlap left and right - nothing in transition (or only counter-press occasionally) - higher D-line, defend wider and split block with the front 3 (and potentially also wing-backs)

That's an example of a tactic I would start with and then potentially make small gradual tweaks if or when needed. 

[Old Joe Clarke]

Yes, I like the DLFsu and AF combo kinda jiggles the lines up a bit and gives options and space for the AMC to explore or burst into, I use a DLF with good pace and an AMC with good brains when I venture down this road. But what has been said in this thread is be mindful of the opposition using a DM as they can effect the AMC very strongly, so maybe tweak him to support duty or even train him to comes deep to get the ball trait.

If you visualise what Experienced Defender has posted for the front three, AF is pretty much in the box or there about and the other two are swapping spaces to mess with the defence. 

[camoulton21]

Cheers for that @Experienced Defender! The tactic makes a lot of logical sense as a template that most teams could utilise, I have a few questions but I'll try to keep this on topic with the AMC theme.

I always felt as if the DLFsupport role wouldn't fit well with an AMC. A DLFsupport links the midfield to the attack which is kind of what an AMC does, making a striker that needs to perform this role redundant. That's why I find it especially hard to get the balance of an AMC in a front 3 right. Is my thinking flawed?

 

[Experienced Defender]

48 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

I always felt as if the DLFsupport role wouldn't fit well with an AMC. A DLFsupport links the midfield to the attack which is kind of what an AMC does, making a striker that needs to perform this role redundant. That's why I find it especially hard to get the balance of an AMC in a front 3 right. Is my thinking flawed?

If that concerns you, then you can try a SS instead of the AM. That role should also fit in well with the rest of "my" setup. However, in a style of play that is primarily possession-oriented, I believe the AM would be a bit more suitable - precisely because of its link-up-play nature. And keep also in mind that in my setup the AM is on attack duty, so being paired with a DLF should work fine.