Why don't AI managers rotate?

[..Valhalla..]

I'm currently in March 2023 and tbh I'm getting pretty fed up ruining teams because the AI manager has named basically the same starting 11 for the last 5 years.

Granted, that's an exaggeration, but the norm at this point of the season is an opponent with an average condition of around 80%, one or two injuries in the starting 11, and a pretty comfortable win for my guys who are largely 100%/100% because I have a basic grasp on keeping them fresh. I realise the game is highly complex and I'm not about to say "it can't be that hard!", but surely a tiny bit of foresight should be applied by the AI managers. 

Player condition = <90%, replace with player condition >90% (+ good CA) where possible.

Note that my experience of coding is from the Amstrad CPC days of (if I can even remember):

10 print "Boobs"
20 goto 10
/run

Boobs
Boobs
Boobs
Boobs
Boobs
Boobs
Boobs
...etc

So juvenile. But my point remains. AI managers ain't got a clue.

[Snorks]

Too busy thinking about Boobs to rotate properly.

[phnompenhandy]

Been an issue for years. Fingers crossed for FM19

[XaW]

While I've disagreed with you on the transfers part, @..Valhalla.., here however, I agree. AI squad management is something I would like to see be improved in FM19. Squads are quite often poorly balanced and lots of rotational options are unhappy with lack of game time.

Since I often play long term saves it means that after a while the game gets a lot easier since many teams seems to be having issues with squad happiness or completely falls together in high injury times due to lack of good backups.

Though some managers have a tendency to play the exact same players each and every game (Hello, Leicester winning the PL), other managers rotate a fair bit. Since the game actually recognize this (you can be asked about it in press conferences), I would hope it would be possible to tune it a bit? I might be talking out my backside here, but I still wish and hope for an improvement in FM19 in this regard.

[tarbanrael]

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I found that winning cup competitions is made much easier because the opposite teams tend to play their best players even though they may be coming back from injury (quite often with condition less than 70% at the start of the match, some still with the orange injury tag displayed), or just playing too many games (condition again less than 85% at beginning of match). Teams in the EPL like Man U, Man City, Chelsea .. tend to not rotate their players as much to rest them and with the extra European matches they play, it impacts on the club performance in the championship. It needs to be tuned. 

 

[RodentofDoom]

They don't do long term planning, and afaik only do short term goals.

 

They have a similar issue with squad depth.

Even when they mostly play using a 3 defender formation, they still appear to be guided by the depth report

so they buy in 3-5 D/WB players which only compounds the rotation issue.

[HUNT3R]

I'd also like to see more rotation or picking certain players with a certain team in mind. A midtable team might pick a more attacking fullback over their regular fullback because they're playing a bit more attacking against a relegation club, where they'll pick more defensive fullbacks (and midfielders etc) to go with a more defensive tactic against title challengers.

It's roughly what I do with my team selections (although my tactics stay the same almost always) and it's very easy to "predict" the opposition's starting line-up, so I almost never make a mistake choosing my match ups to gain advantages.

[..Valhalla..]

This is the Man United team in 2023, their problem is exacerbated further by this ridiculous squad management/transfer policy the AI managers have. As you can see a bunch of their first team can't even be registered for The Premier League because they keep buying in foreign import [despite not being able to register them anyway]. So they don't rotate and as the seasons go by they make it harder and harder for themselves.

And that's why 2023 Man United are seriously struggling in the league and out of every cup competition. As much as I was loving watching it, it's really kinda sad.

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

This is the Man United team in 2023, their problem is exacerbated further by this ridiculous squad management/transfer policy the AI managers have. As you can see a bunch of their first team can't even be registered for The Premier League because they keep buying in foreign import [despite not being able to register them anyway]. So they don't rotate and as the seasons go by they make it harder and harder for themselves.

And that's why 2023 Man United are seriously struggling in the league and out of every cup competition. As much as I was loving watching it, it's really kinda sad.

Could you please report this in the bugs sections so SI can take a look? Giving them more examples can only help improve this issue.

Edit: Firmino at United? 

[westy8chimp]

Rotation bit is quite subjective... Wenger annoyed me last year because he overplayed players in Europa group stage when we should have played B team.

But I agree with you on the issue... and like the simplistic kind of solution (have a break point where, if possible, the AI will not start a player less than x% match fit... id probably be more around the 85% mark than 90... as after internationals if I have a big game i'll play my best player if he's around 85%... but yeh in most cases my ball park is 95% for my team).

Less subjective however, is them starting injured players. That needs to be cut out really... or at least distinguish more between types of injury where an injection can get them through a game, from those who are returning from say a broken leg and still haven't started training.

A new symbol for 'IJT' (injection) would be nice... and only have it available for realistic injuries.

[..Valhalla..]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

Could you please report this in the bugs sections so SI can take a look? Giving them more examples can only help improve this issue.

Edit: Firmino at United? 

He went to Juventus first then United bought him. Getting us back for Paul Ince  

[XaW]

1 minute ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

He went to Juventus first then United bought him. Getting us back for Paul Ince  

I still don't see Firmino doing an Owen... 

[JogaBonito]

And the bigger clubs still keep crazy amounts of players who are left at reserves. 

[RodentofDoom]

A players squad status should play a bigger role in this i think

Even a player set to Backup or Rotation is going to be expecting to get some pitch time on a regular basis.

ATM a player with either of these status' will be quite happy to rot at the bottom of the squad list with zero game time at all, they should at least be pushing for the chance to come on off the bench.

 

It's something the game needs to track better.

If the last 7 games were tracked, then a Key Player could be expected to be given 5 appearances from them, with each drop down the status lowering the expected appearances by 1.

 

I don't think the current payer driven unhappiness with selection frequency does enough to drive squad rotation for ai managers. I know ai managers have a rotation attribute but it doesn't seem to have any impact at all on match day squad selections.

[..Valhalla..]

@RodentofDoom - yeah I agree. I'm never done speaking to players about their playing time, despite the fact I use vastly more players each season than any other team - I always end up answering that press conference question about using "a staggering 28/29+ players"... AI managers on the other hand don't seem to care. Get 5 or 6 seasons in and have a good look around the AI squads; dreadful conditioning, loads of unhappy players, loads of injuries, unregistered players. It makes no sense.

Aside from Bilbao since they are hard-coded, my Liverpool team seem to be the only other team with a genuine plan. 14 players home grown at club, 19 home grown in nation, virtually every player playing a role except in one or two cases where a player wants to leave and I'm trying to sell them. Virtually every other squad is a mess  

[Neotropolis]

19 minutes ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

I always end up answering that press conference question about using "a staggering 28/29+ players".

I think I've already used 32 this year and I'm only in January...

[..Valhalla..]

1 hour ago, Neotropolis said:

I think I've already used 32 this year and I'm only in January...

Exactly how it should be too! I usually well exceed 30, and virtually every player is happy. 

[westy8chimp]

4 hours ago, Neotropolis said:

I think I've already used 32 this year and I'm only in January...

 

3 hours ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

Exactly how it should be too! I usually well exceed 30, and virtually every player is happy. 

Have you not found this year that the 'key' players also get upset easily tho? Im pro rotation but quite often its my first team players rather than backup who have a moan. I probably rotate too much... Cl group games and home legs of knockout... Most cup games... Post international break. Probably a 35 vs 25 starts split over a 60 game season between first 11 and backups. But i also use my three subs every game and spread those appearances evenly... So every player is involved to some extent in 40+ games

[..Valhalla..]

@westy8chimp - only if they were key players before I joined the club but don't really fit the mould of player I want. I try to have 2 players for each position, plus a handful of utility players (James Milner-esque, multi-positional) and a load of youngsters. I have no issues with playing a totally different outfield 10 match to match, often I'll change half the team, sometimes a few. There's no real logic to it other than trying to play the highest condition possible in each match. 

During busy periods I'll plan ahead to rotate according to opponents. For example if we had a run of games around Christmas against Leeds, Man Utd, Bournemouth:

Leeds @ Anfield - I'll play a "weakened" team with some kids, so that...

United @ Old Trafford - my strongest team should be fit. Then...

Bournemouth @ Anfield - whoever remains in top condition, hopefully I'll have had the opportunity to sub out an important player or two against United so they are fully fit/high condition for this match.

When it comes to League cup games I'll honestly play my worst possible starting 11, plus any unhappy players. I don't care about the competition yet I've never lost in it. 

[MagicHat]

whats even more annoying is when you play a team with injuries and low condition players, you're in the second half with all your players above 80, the AI has used all subs and playing with 10 men who are all on about 50-60 percent because of the poor management, you throw the kitchen sink at them and draw 0-0. without even a highlight showing of a chance lol

then you can have 1 player who's got a low condition and he gets skinned all the match and results in opposition goals

[Neotropolis]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

Have you not found this year that the 'key' players also get upset easily tho? Im pro rotation but quite often its my first team players rather than backup who have a moan. I probably rotate too much... Cl group games and home legs of knockout... Most cup games... Post international break. Probably a 35 vs 25 starts split over a 60 game season between first 11 and backups. But i also use my three subs every game and spread those appearances evenly... So every player is involved to some extent in 40+ games

I haven't tbh. I'll rotate everyone, but often my Key Players will be on the bench if they don't start and then they usually come on (sometimes for the last 5-10mins). And in all honesty, I actually only have 4 'Key Players' and a further 7 that are 'First Team' so no-one ever complains. 

Also, I'm forever giving game time to my young guns, even in the league games.

[wayne'o]

All these comments about Ai and poor squad management is really off putting, it’s one of the reasons I gave up playing FM, I was going to get back into it when FM comes out but not sure it’s worth it now as the same problems seem to be arising as always😐..  

i remember several years ago taking over a very poorly Ai managed team just to try and restore them, just like IRL it took several transfer windows to get rid of high wage earner aged 34 who never played.,  I got the squad perfect, it had couple 30 year olds who I had as captain and vice captain, the other players ranged all the way down to 20, the average age of team was mid 20’s, I also had 6 or 7 hot prospects in the reserves or under 18’s who had the potential to become wonderkids and then works class.

when I decided to move on in hope I had helped the club I was wrong, the next manager who took control started selling off the younger players and buying yet again previous ex big time players in there 30’s before I knew it the team was full of none playing 30 year olds again...   I got fed up in the end as long term saves became pointless.

[Snorks]

..... sorry,  can we keep talking about boobs.........

[..Valhalla..]

3 hours ago, wayne'o said:

Cut to keep tidy...

That's the reason I took over Liverpool for a second term in my current save. I'll try to be terse:

Game start, managed them for 2 seasons. I won:

League x 2
League Cup
Champions League
European Super Cup
Club World Championship
Balance £320m
Budget £180m
Wage bill £2.7m p/week
Top rated club on Earth

I also had a couple of wonderkids come through the intake, got "lucky" with Woodburn's PA (plus a few others). Club was in great shape.
I noticed Schalke were doing badly and, since I had a brilliant 10-year save with them in FM17, I quit Liverpool for them - I fancied the challenge. I watched on in despair as Luis Enrique, now managing Liverpool, started signing players like Marco Verratti for £90m, Pau Lopez for £40m (I had already bought Alisson in season 1 ffs), and several other foreign players on big wages. They finished 6th with no trophies, then 4th plus an FA Cup. He was sacked, must have promised to win the league or something, I dunno. Anyway I applied and was hired immediately. Balance was something like £40m, wage bill £4.7m, wonderkids were stagnating... club was a mess.

I'm just about to finish my second season (4th overall), and currently:

League x 2 (4 overall)
League Cup x 2 (3)
FA Cup final coming up (V Everton) EDIT - just won.
Champions League final (V Real Madrid) EDIT - just won 4-0.
Balance £160m (about to be loads more at season end)
Transfer budget remaining £192m lol

The club has 18 home grown players in the first team, 14 trained at club, we provide half the England National Team, I have six or seven U18 players about to be promoted to the first team next season. As a club we are absolutely flying, we just thrashed Bayern 12-2 (you read that right) in the Champions League semi final. And we did that because Bayern are managed exactly how Liverpool were before I returned. It's madness.

[Lucas_26_7]

15 hours ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

@RodentofDoom - yeah I agree. I'm never done speaking to players about their playing time, despite the fact I use vastly more players each season than any other team - I always end up answering that press conference question about using "a staggering 28/29+ players"... AI managers on the other hand don't seem to care. Get 5 or 6 seasons in and have a good look around the AI squads; dreadful conditioning, loads of unhappy players, loads of injuries, unregistered players. It makes no sense.

Aside from Bilbao since they are hard-coded, my Liverpool team seem to be the only other team with a genuine plan. 14 players home grown at club, 19 home grown in nation, virtually every player playing a role except in one or two cases where a player wants to leave and I'm trying to sell them. Virtually every other squad is a mess  

I am the opposite, I always get 'you have only used 21 players this season least in the Prem etc'. But all those players play frequently, basically have two good players in each position and they are all capable of playing depending on the game, I don't even rotate heavily for the FA Cup or League Cup nowadays as I find I always lose the game after if I swap everyone out and back in (i.e. change the entire 11 like the clubs do in real life

[wayne'o]

4 hours ago, ..Valhalla.. said:

That's the reason I took over Liverpool for a second term in my current save. I'll try to be terse:

Game start, managed them for 2 seasons. I won:

League x 2
League Cup
Champions League
European Super Cup
Club World Championship
Balance £320m
Budget £180m
Wage bill £2.7m p/week
Top rated club on Earth

I also had a couple of wonderkids come through the intake, got "lucky" with Woodburn's PA (plus a few others). Club was in great shape.
I noticed Schalke were doing badly and, since I had a brilliant 10-year save with them in FM17, I quit Liverpool for them - I fancied the challenge. I watched on in despair as Luis Enrique, now managing Liverpool, started signing players like Marco Verratti for £90m, Pau Lopez for £40m (I had already bought Alisson in season 1 ffs), and several other foreign players on big wages. They finished 6th with no trophies, then 4th plus an FA Cup. He was sacked, must have promised to win the league or something, I dunno. Anyway I applied and was hired immediately. Balance was something like £40m, wage bill £4.7m, wonderkids were stagnating... club was a mess.

I'm just about to finish my second season (4th overall), and currently:

League x 2 (4 overall)
League Cup x 2 (3)
FA Cup final coming up (V Everton) EDIT - just won.
Champions League final (V Real Madrid) EDIT - just won 4-0.
Balance £160m (about to be loads more at season end)
Transfer budget remaining £192m lol

The club has 18 home grown players in the first team, 14 trained at club, we provide half the England National Team, I have six or seven U18 players about to be promoted to the first team next season. As a club we are absolutely flying, we just thrashed Bayern 12-2 (you read that right) in the Champions League semi final. And we did that because Bayern are managed exactly how Liverpool were before I returned. It's madness.

Grr it’s annoying 😐. But like Mourinho IRL, prefers older players and never tries to bring on the younger player, probably why he’s having trouble now at Utd?  Kevin De Bruyne is prime example, I remember him having a couple really good games at Chelsea, he never played and he wanted to move. Look how good he’s turned out to be.

[Svenc]

It's actually a boobspiracy! If the AI on this game were to be become decent (and the likelyhood of it winning a few points), the "cheating AI" rubbish reviews on Steam would only increase in numbers -- and take a look at just the more recent merely this month. Then again, actually, it's not -- it's a psychological problem and a challenge to face for any game. Player perception=reality.

Reckon it's gotten a tad better though. On an older release I faced an end of season play-off in which the AI side had managed itself into an uphil battle, as their fitness just wasn't there. And all I personally did was giving my starters a day off in training every once  in a while...

 

 

[Cal585]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

If the AI on this game were to be become decent (and the likelyhood of it winning a few points), the "cheating AI" rubbish reviews on Steam would only increase in numbers -- and take a look at just the more recent merely this month. Then again, actually, it's not -- it's a psychological problem and a challenge to face for any game.

Most complaints here and on Steam seem to be the short term though. 2nd half of one of the first seasons particularly once the AI adjusts to reputation. Not rotating is more of a long term problem than a short term one as it impacts squad building more than individual matches. I always see bargains on the transfer list several years into the game as quality players become unhappy they're not being used or youngsters not developed. I've only ever heard people say that the game becomes easier the longer you play it, so I really don't think a magic fix to this would cause any complaints. I also see the bigger problem more as the AI not managing squad status properly, rather than playing players with low conditioning (which I believe has to be fairly low before it becomes detrimental?)

That said, I don't tend to play long term saves and the lack of perceived AI squad building is one of the main reasons (but I also like playing with real players).

[..Valhalla..]

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

If the AI on this game were to be become decent (and the likelyhood of it winning a few points), the "cheating AI" rubbish reviews on Steam would only increase in numbers

 

I can imagine, but as I said in my OP, surely a tiny bit of rotation to keep players fresh and competitive could be applied so long-term games don't become a procession.

"boobspiracy"  

[Neotropolis]

2 hours ago, wayne'o said:

Kevin De Bruyne is prime example, I remember him having a couple really good games at Chelsea, he never played and he wanted to move. Look how good he’s turned out to be.

You can also add the Martial situation that's going on now. He had a 'relatively' good first season under Van Gaal (that goal against Liverpool! [sorry, not sorry]). But in KDB's case, he wouldn't be the player he is today if he wasn't sold. He'd be a Belgian Lucas Piazon being loaned out every season.

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

the "cheating AI" rubbish reviews on Steam would only increase in numbers

In all fairness, reviews on games like this really don't make any difference. If you want an immersive Football Experience. You buy this game, regardless of what NickNackPaddyWack793 says about the cheating AI always scoring goals just because he refuses to read any of the guides and tips about learning the tactics because his 'all-conquering' 2-3-4-2 worked in League Two but doesn't work against quality opposition in the Premier League.

[RodentofDoom]

I think the AI needs to differentiate based on sharpness & fitness separately from each other, and it should be driven by the managers Rotation attribute

 

this would let the ai managers pick their matchday squad based on

Sharpness - above a minimum value

Fitness - below a maximum value

 

So if you have manager A (Rotation 5) and manager B (rotation 15) a players fitness would have to drop much lower for manager A to pick him than it would for manager B, sharpness should work the same way but just with reversed values.

 

not sure how to tie squad status into this ...

unless that is just used for the players in determining if they are happy or not with the number of starts, or even complaints of too much competition for places.

 

 

 

 

[swansongs]

Outside the top divisions playing virtually the same 11 every Sat and Tues is the norm. 

[ZoDiAC_]

On 29/08/2018 at 23:22, Snorks said:

..... sorry,  can we keep talking about boobs.........

troll.

[RodentofDoom]

5 hours ago, swansongs said:

Outside the top divisions playing virtually the same 11 every Sat and Tues is the norm. 

True

but at some point you have to look at it as a game

and decide when realism needs to go for the sake of improved game play

 

admittedly this is something that people who only play MUFC for 2-3 seasons never experience

and those people make up a very large part of the playerbase

but theres also people who enjoy watching the in-game world develop uniquely for 20+ seasons with each individual start-up

and there's more of them than you might think

[..Valhalla..]

5 hours ago, swansongs said:

Outside the top divisions playing virtually the same 11 every Sat and Tues is the norm. 

I don't doubt it, but in my longest save yet virtually every other Premier League team (plus those in all active top leagues aside from Bilbao for obvious reasons) have awful squads by 2024. They all have:

• Unhappy players
• Injured players PLAYING (while fit players rot away)
• Several unregistered players
• Awful conditioning throughout the squad
• Top quality youngsters stagnating

The only high PA kids who seem to make it are those who are top quality from a very young age (like Michael Owen, Lionel Messi, Fabregas type kids). I appreciate how difficult it must be, but AI managers need to have better squad management faculties in order to improve the realism of long-term games (which I and many others prefer to play).

[Snorks]

Ran a 'test' - not scientific, not peer-reviewed - but used FMRTE to 'destroy team' on Chelsea (top of EPL, lost 3 out of 33 games) just before I played them.

Their line up was full of young unknowns come match day - so it seems there IS some kind of rotation going on, but it looks as if the situations has to be in the extreme for it to kick in properly.

Smashed them 8-0, then closed and reloaded the save. Still won 2-1 though :-)

[isignedupfornorealreason]

1 hour ago, Snorks said:

but used FMRTE to 'destroy team' on Chelsea

What does that do?

Anyway, I wonder if the rotation only happens depending on condition - doesn't the tooltip suggest it's fine to play players until they're in the 'red zone' which I think is 50%? I always sub my players at 69% or under, so if the 'red zone' is indeed down to 50%, it probably isn't any wonder why they're not rotating. Maybe?

[FrazT]

I think that FMRTE reduces a player's starting condition to 50-60% and this will often mean that the AI will start a reserve instead.

[jrendavid]

I agree wholeheartedly with this

[..Valhalla..]

9 hours ago, FrazT said:

I think that FMRTE reduces a player's starting condition to 50-60% and this will often mean that the AI will start a reserve instead.

Also sets all morale to abysmal if I'm not mistaken.

[Preveza]

On 30/08/2018 at 07:43, wayne'o said:

All these comments about Ai and poor squad management is really off putting, it’s one of the reasons I gave up playing FM, I was going to get back into it when FM comes out but not sure it’s worth it now as the same problems seem to be arising as always😐..  

i remember several years ago taking over a very poorly Ai managed team just to try and restore them, just like IRL it took several transfer windows to get rid of high wage earner aged 34 who never played.,  I got the squad perfect, it had couple 30 year olds who I had as captain and vice captain, the other players ranged all the way down to 20, the average age of team was mid 20’s, I also had 6 or 7 hot prospects in the reserves or under 18’s who had the potential to become wonderkids and then works class.

when I decided to move on in hope I had helped the club I was wrong, the next manager who took control started selling off the younger players and buying yet again previous ex big time players in there 30’s before I knew it the team was full of none playing 30 year olds again...   I got fed up in the end as long term saves became pointless.

Exactly!!!! We can do an amazing job at turning a squad around, but the AI has zero clue an this has been the case for many years. Pity

[Snorks]

On 07/09/2018 at 20:21, ..Valhalla.. said:

Also sets all morale to abysmal if I'm not mistaken.

Yep - morale and condition gets a hammering. 

[hoppo1982]

On 29/08/2018 at 11:29, ..Valhalla.. said:

This is the Man United team in 2023, their problem is exacerbated further by this ridiculous squad management/transfer policy the AI managers have. As you can see a bunch of their first team can't even be registered for The Premier League because they keep buying in foreign import [despite not being able to register them anyway]. So they don't rotate and as the seasons go by they make it harder and harder for themselves.

And that's why 2023 Man United are seriously struggling in the league and out of every cup competition. As much as I was loving watching it, it's really kinda sad.

I am in Season 2020/21 with Newcastle and Man Utd are doing similar things but not to the same level. They seem to play "weakend" teams in the cups but the same players in the league.

 

It's not stopping them winning every match though. Hopefully it changes