Why I decided to go back to FM11.

[Los_Culés]

I am complaining that I can not do eg. the following (quoting noikeee):

- tell a fullback/wingback to cross less so he can hold onto the ball more
- tell a deep-lying forward to hold onto the ball less so he doesn't stop the tempo if you want quick moves
- tell a centre-back to run up with ball if he's Beckenbauer
- tweak a complete forward to get rid of one of his instructions such as dribble more or play more through balls, if you have a forward that's "almost complete"
- tell a roaming playmaker to dribble less, what if I have a guy that I want to be all over the pitch and be the heart of the team as he's brilliant at everything BUT he can't dribble
- tell a deep-lying forward to play less through balls, again what if he's crap at passing
- by contrast tell a target man to play more through balls, what if I have Zlatan

And yes, I am complaining about rigid tactics creator. We can have tactics creator with preset roles and at the same time we can have more profound tools. Everybody would be happy then :).

[Cougar2010]

I've said it once but I'll say it again the role & duty is nothing more than a macro to give a player a series of instructions in one go.  What the role & duty is called is not relevant within the ME, it could be called Bill & Ben or Tinky-Winky, Dipsy, Laa Laa & Po.  The names & descriptions are only there to aid the user in identifying what to expect from a player on the pitch by giving him those instructions.

Saying things like "I don't want my DLF to do that" is meaningless as you can give the player a different set of instructions.

As I'm sitting waiting to pick my next International squad I'll run through noikeee's list:

Quote

- tell a fullback/wingback to cross less so he can hold onto the ball more

Here you can select a different role or duty that cross less than the one you have currently selected.  Many of the roles & duties also allow you to select "Cross less" (Pretty much any that aren't an attack duty).

Quote

- tell a deep-lying forward to hold onto the ball less so he doesn't stop the tempo if you want quick moves

The set of instructions called "Deep Lying Forward" holds up the ball by default because its a key part of how the role works.  If you don't want the player in that position to hold the ball up then you have the wrong set of instructions chosen.  You need to choose a different set (ie role & duty).

Quote

- tell a centre-back to run up with ball if he's Beckenbauer

This one is a fair comment.  There is a ball playing defender role which doesn't have dribble less and will allow the player to bring the ball out more but there perhaps is a gap in the role options here.  Not sure if its something the current ME to work with atm though.

Quote

- tweak a complete forward to get rid of one of his instructions such as dribble more or play more through balls, if you have a forward that's "almost complete"

A CF on support has four fixed instructions, with attack duty a CF has six fixed.  All of them seem fairly key to how the role plays so again you should be selecting a different role/duty.

Quote

- tell a roaming playmaker to dribble less, what if I have a guy that I want to be all over the pitch and be the heart of the team as he's brilliant at everything BUT he can't dribble

Again the description specifically tells you that dribbling is key to that set of instructions.  If you have a player who can't dribble you should be selecting a different role, perhaps an AP.

Quote

- tell a deep-lying forward to play less through balls, again what if he's crap at passing

Same again, if he is crap at passing why are you selecting a set of instructions where passing is a key skill???

Its not rocket science, select a more relevant set of instructions.

Quote

- by contrast tell a target man to play more through balls, what if I have Zlatan

Again select a different role/duty

Zlatan isn't really a target man for one while Zlatan only passes the ball when Zlatan feels like it

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Los_Culés]

@Cougar2010

Thanks for the input, but a lot of this has been already discussed in this thread and I would be only repeating myself. There are just no possibilities to do certain things within this tactics creator, things I find completely realistic that should be possible. Also choosing a different role is not a solution when the number of roles is limited and there are actually no suitable roles/set of instructions for the way I want to play.

 

[Cougar2010]

3 minutes ago, Los_Culés said:

@Cougar2010

Thanks for the input, but a lot of this has been already discussed in this thread and I would be only repeating myself. There are just no possibilities to do certain things within this tactics creator, things I find completely realistic that should be possible. Also choosing a different role is not a solution when the number of roles is limited and there are actually no suitable roles/set of instructions for the way I want to play.

 

Sure there are certain sets of instructions that can't be done currently, there have been threads/discussions about them before and hopefully these will be addressed by SI going forwards.

If there are specific sets of instructions which are realistic and not in FM17 then they should be brought up & discussed again but lets wait to see whats in FM17.

In general though it feels like you are just sticking your head in the sand when people give you answers/alternatives to your issues rather than being open to the possibility that its not as bad as you make out.

[Lindhoffen]

I'm going back to FM16 now after a lengthy spell on the sidelines. The game does suck your time like a blackhole inside a washing machine and it's about finding the regular time to do whatever has to be done to get your team over the finishing line. I just couldn't dedicate enough time to it, having my own import/export business expanding to Eastern Europe this year. I played FM11 extensively when it was released. I pre-ordered it even. But that version has five years worth of flaws that you won't find in FM16. As a nostalgic trip to the past and a trip through memory lane where my third ex-wife resides, it could be fun. But I don't find any enjoyment in playing a season of design and game flaws.

[Los_Culés]

@Lindhoffen

" But I don't find any enjoyment in playing a season of design and game flaws. "

This I can say about FM16 aka Crossing Manager as well. As stated in my OP, some of the flaws I find really horrendous, totally joy braking for me.

Also not going to buy any future FM as long as the SI idea of "less options for players = less exploitable engine" will persist.

[Overmars]

I loved FM11. I do think FM15 was better. I'm not as positive about FM16. I wish I could keep the same base game/engine that I prefer and pay for data updates to mirror newer versions. I would have paid full price for a new game just to update FM15's data and be able to keep playing that same engine. Similarly, I would pay for the FM11 experience again with new data.

Part of my grumbling about each newer version is the experience behind getting to know their nuances. How do I retrain positions now? Where did tutoring go? Why is the tactic screen different? I have to do what to get my set pieces in order? That's the kind of stuff that slows down the fun for me and runs the risk of turning the game into a chore.

[Svenc]

Fm 2011 is  old. Back in the day it was a fun game, it can still be as the core of the gig is always the same. But even though I've never went into massively detail with a lot of things (player development and tutoring, for a start), as a long-term player you eventually evolve your style and game with it, and due to slowly but gradually advances made to AI in particular, older version can become a bit of the game's most "expensive" screen savers: just sit back and watch the fireworks. In 2011 some of the Ai tactics which are suspicious to this day were total gash in retrospect, gifting you goals and added points (frequently no holding midfielders, lol, even the top teams would gift you goals that way). The transfer markets and scouting were much easier to steamroll and master, promising players they'd be "key" only to never deliver once they arrive could be simply abused, lots more.

Favorite versions oft depend on the saves you have/had on them rather than the version in particular. Depending on what you want to get out of the series and how long you've been there, it's not much of an option to go that much back from my experience. I didn't mention any specific engine stuff as each version has and will continue to have those based on history -- I personally stopped playing FM 2015 for weeks until the stuff that got me was patched out too and can relate though. It's really rather simple to outperform any AI pretty much across the shop still (many do without realizing), and will likely always be as SI need to bring in fresh players and can't rely on solely retaining the old guard, some of which will stop playing anyway, but FM 2013 or thereabouts would be just about the cut-off line for me, perhaps FM 2012; it's much similar to FM 2011, but had the morale streaks fixed that had entire squads riding on either "superb" or "abysmal" morale waves for prolonged periods. Some AI entered this much of a slump coupled with their tactics mind (it can never be morale alone that causes all the fuss) that even on shoe-string budgets I never remember ever entering a relegation battle in FM 2011. There was always a number of AI sides in any league that once in a slump they never got out of it, collecting miserably few points by just sitting back and letting the attacking waves come until it was just a matter of time until a typically below average side completely lacking in confidence conceded every week every match -- and back then I was poor and did suspicious stuff.

[fmfan74]

Given i've spent a huge number of hours sending files to SI for FM16 and the previous season.  I'm still not satisfied at the end results.  The game has improved, it's not the worst or best version for now.  But given the small staff size and budget allocation they can only be realistic in terms of bug fixes.   The game is a monster and it's only growing, the question is will the staff size grow to handle the demands of the player base.  

Year on year i see new additions but yet we still see new bugs crop up that should have been diminished years ago.  Especially collision detection, for e.g. i'm seeing a striker who has the ball and there is no one around him by 30 meters.  All of a sudden in a split second the defence has caught up and also overlapped my striker.  It's things like this that need to be sorted out  fast.  

Year on year i keep buying the game convincing myself that the old bugs are dead and buried but only to discover some old ones and new ones.  Each version lately is becoming a can of worms.  I love the game but the word CONTROL is slipping away.  I don't think i will buy FM17 on release date, i just can't keep up with sending a huge amount of bug saved games to SI to fix because they don't always do.  If anything I'm going to wait past December and hear what people have to say about the winter break patch and see how much work gets done before i buy it.

It's becoming a joke that the first half life span of the product we buy each year is all about sending files to SI and sorting out bugs which only gives us half a life span of the product version to enjoy if we can before the new version will come out.  Rinse repeat it's not fun.

[Preveza]

3 hours ago, fmfan74 said:

Given i've spent a huge number of hours sending files to SI for FM16 and the previous season.  I'm still not satisfied at the end results.  The game has improved, it's not the worst or best version for now.  But given the small staff size and budget allocation they can only be realistic in terms of bug fixes.   The game is a monster and it's only growing, the question is will the staff size grow to handle the demands of the player base.  

Year on year i see new additions but yet we still see new bugs crop up that should have been diminished years ago.  Especially collision detection, for e.g. i'm seeing a striker who has the ball and there is no one around him by 30 meters.  All of a sudden in a split second the defence has caught up and also overlapped my striker.  It's things like this that need to be sorted out  fast.  

Year on year i keep buying the game convincing myself that the old bugs are dead and buried but only to discover some old ones and new ones.  Each version lately is becoming a can of worms.  I love the game but the word CONTROL is slipping away.  I don't think i will buy FM17 on release date, i just can't keep up with sending a huge amount of bug saved games to SI to fix because they don't always do.  If anything I'm going to wait past December and hear what people have to say about the winter break patch and see how much work gets done before i buy it.

It's becoming a joke that the first half life span of the product we buy each year is all about sending files to SI and sorting out bugs which only gives us half a life span of the product version to enjoy if we can before the new version will come out.  Rinse repeat it's not fun.

This. As much as I love the game, and have for over a decade, I am starting to become frustrated at the constant bugs and issues popping up. This game probably makes enough turnover for SI to employ heaps more staff.

 

Id love to see the Editor improve also and give the community more flexibility in terms of editing the game. Example. Imagine the ability for us users to create stadiums ? I understand it is something which will eventually occur down the years, but damn that would be amazing. And im talking about 3D stadiums. Will ofcourse purchase FM17 as my love for the game is sky high. Really hoping FM17 is a gamechanger, but wont hold my breath

[Morten M. Olsen]

I can only agree with the "monster" thing! I have played A LOT of CM/FM in the past but the past years it has been impossible for me to get in to the games. WHY do SI keep adding so many features instead of streamlining what is already there? Less really can be more sometimes. All the media stuff for instance - just throw it away already. SI needs to spend development time to make it all work, and honestly, for most, stuff like press conferences and team talks are just annoying.

[HUNT3R]

48 minutes ago, Morten M. Olsen said:

WHY do SI keep adding so many features instead of streamlining what is already there? Less really can be more sometimes. All the media stuff for instance - just throw it away already. SI needs to spend development time to make it all work, and honestly, for most, stuff like press conferences and team talks are just annoying.

You've described FM Touch now. Have you tried it?

[noikeee]

18 hours ago, Overmars said:

Part of my grumbling about each newer version is the experience behind getting to know their nuances. How do I retrain positions now? Where did tutoring go? Why is the tactic screen different? I have to do what to get my set pieces in order? That's the kind of stuff that slows down the fun for me and runs the risk of turning the game into a chore.

This is something completely different from what the opening post is complaining about, though. Personally I have absolutely no issues with the more recent UIs and I think it's been a huge improvement over the years. It takes maybe a day or two to get used to the new changes and then it's almost always for the better. Indeed, it's often the UI and all the other little feature improvements and bug fixes over the years that pulls me into the newer FMs, even if I find the older match engines more fun.

[noikeee]

18 hours ago, Svenc said:

Fm 2011 is  old. Back in the day it was a fun game, it can still be as the core of the gig is always the same. But even though I've never went into massively detail with a lot of things (player development and tutoring, for a start), as a long-term player you eventually evolve your style and game with it, and due to slowly but gradually advances made to AI in particular, older version can become a bit of the game's most "expensive" screen savers: just sit back and watch the fireworks. In 2011 some of the Ai tactics which are suspicious to this day were total gash in retrospect, gifting you goals and added points (frequently no holding midfielders, lol, even the top teams would gift you goals that way). The transfer markets and scouting were much easier to steamroll and master, promising players they'd be "key" only to never deliver once they arrive could be simply abused, lots more.

Favorite versions oft depend on the saves you have/had on them rather than the version in particular. Depending on what you want to get out of the series and how long you've been there, it's not much of an option to go that much back from my experience. I didn't mention any specific engine stuff as each version has and will continue to have those based on history -- I personally stopped playing FM 2015 for weeks until the stuff that got me was patched out too and can relate though. It's really rather simple to outperform any AI pretty much across the shop still (many do without realizing), and will likely always be as SI need to bring in fresh players and can't rely on solely retaining the old guard, some of which will stop playing anyway, but FM 2013 or thereabouts would be just about the cut-off line for me, perhaps FM 2012; it's much similar to FM 2011, but had the morale streaks fixed that had entire squads riding on either "superb" or "abysmal" morale waves for prolonged periods. Some AI entered this much of a slump coupled with their tactics mind (it can never be morale alone that causes all the fuss) that even on shoe-string budgets I never remember ever entering a relegation battle in FM 2011. There was always a number of AI sides in any league that once in a slump they never got out of it, collecting miserably few points by just sitting back and letting the attacking waves come until it was just a matter of time until a typically below average side completely lacking in confidence conceded every week every match -- and back then I was poor and did suspicious stuff.

I think you need to consider that there are 2 different perspectives depending on how each player plays the game:

1. The micromanagement expert that watches matches in detail and enjoys reacting to what the AI is doing tactically

2. The guy that wants to simulate seasons more quickly, and so just sets up a base system and maybe 1 or 2 standard tactical variants, to react to whatever very obvious things the AI is doing that can be spotted in quick highlights

I'm guy #2, but as the AI becomes more clever and the game more subtle it's becoming a better game for guy #1. I haven't tried FM Touch in a long time, but I believe it's got the same match engine as the full game, so that's not an option neither.

Obviously I don't want the AI to be dumbed down on purpose, to gift you points by not fielding any midfield cover, or for there to be clear exploits, but FM16 felt as if you could no longer anymore just build up a sound system and then forget it. It's just a very, very elaborate game of rock/paper/scissors now.

I eventually "beat the game" in '16 but it was with a very elaborate system of tweaks that forced me to play on comprehensive highlights every match. Not only this was too time consuming for me; it was twice as frustrating because some of the tweaks I was doing to win didn't make logical sense under weird quirks of the ME; and it was three times as frustrating because the versatile players I needed to play this system of tweaks weren't being generated by the regen system (but that's being discussed on other threads). 4 times as frustrating because for whatever reason, even on the highest speed, matches take ages to sim in FM16 compared to FM15 and previous.

FM11, FM12, to a lesser extent FM15, they weren't like this. Okay they were exploitable, but you could also just build a sound system and have a few variations that played out as expected, and you were good to go. That felt immensely more rewarding. Obviously a player that dissects every detail in every match will always find an edge over more casual players, but that shouldn't be compulsory. And any tactical changes you make should be represented clearly in-game, not in obscure quirky ways with illogical repercussions.

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, noikeee said:

I think you need to consider that there are 2 different perspectives depending on how each player plays the game:

1. The micromanagement expert that watches matches in detail and enjoys reacting to what the AI is doing tactically

2. The guy that wants to simulate seasons more quickly, and so just sets up a base system and maybe 1 or 2 standard tactical variants, to react to whatever very obvious things the AI is doing that can be spotted in quick highlights

I'm guy #2, but as the AI becomes more clever and the game more subtle it's becoming a better game for guy #1. I haven't tried FM Touch in a long time, but I believe it's got the same match engine as the full game, so that's not an option neither.

Obviously I don't want the AI to be dumbed down on purpose, to gift you points by not fielding any midfield cover, or for there to be clear exploits, but FM16 felt as if you could no longer anymore just build up a sound system and then forget it. It's just a very, very elaborate game of rock/paper/scissors now.

I eventually "beat the game" in '16 but it was with a very elaborate system of tweaks that forced me to play on comprehensive highlights every match. Not only this was too time consuming for me; it was twice as frustrating because some of the tweaks I was doing to win didn't make logical sense under weird quirks of the ME; and it was three times as frustrating because the versatile players I needed to play this system of tweaks weren't being generated by the regen system (but that's being discussed on other threads). 4 times as frustrating because for whatever reason, even on the highest speed, matches take ages to sim in FM16 compared to FM15 and previous.

FM11, FM12, to a lesser extent FM15, they weren't like this. Okay they were exploitable, but you could also just build a sound system and have a few variations that played out as expected, and you were good to go. That felt immensely more rewarding. Obviously a player that dissects every detail in every match will always find an edge over more casual players, but that shouldn't be compulsory. And any tactical changes you make should be represented clearly in-game, not in obscure quirky ways with illogical repercussions.

Ok Noikeee it is a simulation of football management, how many managers irl can set up a system and then retire to the bar until the match is over.  A manager has to manage a match for 90 minutes to be successful.  If this is not for you, there are easier games and indeed easier versions of FM that you can play

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, noikeee said:

FM11, FM12, to a lesser extent FM15, they weren't like this. Okay they were exploitable, but you could also just build a sound system and have a few variations that played out as expected, and you were good to go. That felt immensely more rewarding.

Didn't want this post to come off as if it was mainly about (AI) tactics, as the difference with older version also was the aforementioned scouting and transfer markets and AI team slumps and more -- generally by and large the better teams simply win more games (unless they're set up horribly). Been doing the bold thing for years, from my perspective. FM will never be a purely tactics sim, despite what the sub forums suggest (in which, unsurprisingly, people gather and write lots of stuff as they enjoy that and immersive themselves into that part, including writing about it as if it were the "real" thing -- it's probably missing a "playing it simple" thing. As the place is run by tactic enthusiasts mostly naturally, it paints a bit of a wrong picture on occasion). The basics haven't changed in any of the more recent version.. So therefore can't relate to that personally, though I've never been the type who made weak teams sitting atop tables on any version. That's also why I do my test runs each version what would happen if you just holidayed doing nothing yourself whatsoever... you'd be surprised.

Still there's another player dichotomy besides what you suggest. You hinted at it, and this incorporates everything else too:

I eventually "beat the game"

1. The guy who wants immersive himself into a "semi"-realistic football world the game sets up, which includes good and bad teams, managers prefering different things, poor sides oft trying to grind out any luck point at tough away days, big home sides accepting no less than a win when playing at home against the minnows, etc.

2. The guy coming at it from a more traditionally "gaming mindset" in which each iteration should be "beatable" at one point,... like in Hearts Of Iron where guys game the system and take over the world with Luxembourg. There's a decent guy from here. I never understood why he starts saves over and over again and despite overachieving in most of them he never just sticks to it, as he would steamroll most of his opposition a couple seasons in. That seemed like an exercise in total frustration. However his enjoyment has always been taking (throughout the years oft quite mediocre) EPL side he always picks, and taking them to glory straight away, i.e. it's the traditional "power fantasy" inherent to 99% of gaming. That should require at least a modicum of thought (and luck and good runs imo), as if it didn't, what's the point of even starting the thing. There is also no longevity to it if that were the case, do it once and smile, do it for the tenth time and you just quit buying (or you've got too much time to waste). Realistically man management, tactics whatever you engage in may alter the chances of winning or losing by a couple percent, but nothing would consistently make poor sides aiming for top spots.

I would even introduce another one going back to the first post:

1. The guy who doesn't enjoy feature X that has grown some in prominence (the oft quotes press stuff, but also the mentioned changes made to the tactics options, team talks, player agents,  etc.)

2. The guy who enjoys it or is at least indifferent about it

None of this is new, naturally, has been found and theorized about seasons ago already. No one is right or wrong in their expectations. I think the game is catering to an all-around quite casually crowd anyways, in parts as retention of a few "hardcore" isn't commercially sustainable. There's just too much weird and basic stuff done by AI for me to see this differently, and as said, I've never been the greatest of players -- that's just all coming from a couple versions of game experience. It's a game aimed at your average football fan, first and foremost, and whilst that incorporates a bit more detail than your average Fifa Manager which you start and win the CL in no time, it's still not rocket science either (though the documentation or lack thereof can make it look as such, and it can take a couple time to really "learn" the basics). Whoops, sorry that was long. :-)

[Los_Culés]

@Tony Wright 747

A lot of managers IRL just spend the match shouting at players, mainly reminding them their pre-match instructions, correcting their positional mistakes etc.. not making drastic changes in team's overall playing style. IRL managers surely do not have to fiddle with ridiculous things like structured/flexible/fluid in order to simply adjust their players positioning.

And btw. IRL managers do not have to constantly fiddle with team/player instructions to minimize match engine flaws :).

[Zola444]

This is my first post since 2013 on this Forum, and I remember the exact same discussion about going back to FM2008 back then.

I'm back on 2016 for the fist FM game I've played in years, since around 2012. Until recently its been 2007 for me. I don't think anything has been massively wrong with newer versions, we just love nostalgia and are creatures of habit.

Oh - and it means i can dream of a world in which Shevchenko turned out incredible for us!

[Morten M. Olsen]

17 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You've described FM Touch now. Have you tried it?

Actually, no. And I have though on trying it. I have a feeling that it is TOO simplified, though, but maybe I should give it a shot. The "touch" stuff gives me a very wrong vibe though!

 

Essentially, my feeling is that to justify the annually release model, SI pile way too many new features in. This leads to bugs which is annoying. But mostly, for me at least, it has lead to an extremely bloated game that feels more like a hobby than a game, or maybe even like a real job.

I think the main issue is the annually release. A year simply is not enough to make meaningful changes and therefore we get an endless stream of minor features that just make the game harder and harder to work with - both for users and it's developers.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Morten M. Olsen said:

Actually, no. And I have though on trying it. I have a feeling that it is TOO simplified, though, but maybe I should give it a shot. The "touch" stuff gives me a very wrong vibe though!

 

Essentially, my feeling is that to justify the annually release model, SI pile way too many new features in. This leads to bugs which is annoying. But mostly, for me at least, it has lead to an extremely bloated game that feels more like a hobby than a game, or maybe even like a real job.

I think the main issue is the annually release. A year simply is not enough to make meaningful changes and therefore we get an endless stream of minor features that just make the game harder and harder to work with - both for users and it's developers.

It's not a great name, I'll give you that, but try it. It sounds exactly like what you're looking for in FM.

As for the 2nd part, if there's not enough for you in the next version, buy it the year after? Solves the problem instantly.

[Morten M. Olsen]

28 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

As for the 2nd part, if there's not enough for you in the next version, buy it the year after? Solves the problem instantly.

Hm, not really. Because what I would ideally want is a longer development cycle where they can implement bigger, more meaningful, features and maybe do complete overhauls of some of the more clunky systems. As I say, my gut feeling now is that they are piling on too many minor features because it must fit an annual release model. Now I say gut feeling, because to be fair I have not played the game that much over the last couple of years.

When I try, however, the main feeling I get is that of feeling sort of guilty when I don't attend all my press conferences and do all team talks and micro manage all training etc etc etc etc.

What I would want, was for a way to completely customize the main game. So when starting (or dynamically on the fly), select if you want press conferences, team talk, individual training...all kinds of stuff. And if you do not select it it is completely hidden and not a part of the game. I know that this feature is there SORT OF by having the assistant handle it, but that just makes me feel that I am not properly managing my team, and also he might screw up.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Morten M. Olsen said:

Hm, not really. Because what I would ideally want is a longer development cycle where they can implement bigger, more meaningful, features and maybe do complete overhauls of some of the more clunky systems. As I say, my gut feeling now is that they are piling on too many minor features because it must fit an annual release model. Now I say gut feeling, because to be fair I have not played the game that much over the last couple of years.

When I try, however, the main feeling I get is that of feeling sort of guilty when I don't attend all my press conferences and do all team talks and micro manage all training etc etc etc etc.

What I would want, was for a way to completely customize the main game. So when starting (or dynamically on the fly), select if you want press conferences, team talk, individual training...all kinds of stuff. And if you do not select it it is completely hidden and not a part of the game. I know that this feature is there SORT OF by having the assistant handle it, but that just makes me feel that I am not properly managing my team, and also he might screw up.

The bigger features DO get worked on over long periods. They just get implemented when ready or it is split up in phases. There's a short, medium and long term vision for the series.

It's been suggested before and it's not technically possible (at the moment) because you can't just plug modules in or out. They're all very much linked to each other.

And hire a capable assistant if that's the route you want to go? If you don't want to do team talks and PCs, get one with good Motivation and you're set.

 

[Morten M. Olsen]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

The bigger features DO get worked on over long periods. They just get implemented when ready or it is split up in phases. There's a short, medium and long term vision for the series.

It's been suggested before and it's not technically possible (at the moment) because you can't just plug modules in or out. They're all very much linked to each other.

And hire a capable assistant if that's the route you want to go? If you don't want to do team talks and PCs, get one with good Motivation and you're set.

 

Ok, fair enough. Then, for me at least, the main gripe probably just is that the "game" feeling has gone. I feel like I am working and not relaxing when playing. Again, less can be more. It might actually be a better game by being simplified. Not dumbed-down, but simplified/streamlined.

But perhaps I am not in the majority here - many of the users might want the extreme levels of detail. For me it has just become too much. I would be very interested if it was possible at some point to make it modular so there was complete freedom in choosing what you wanted included. I can understand that this is hard to do, though.

I understand that I can do the assistant manager thing. But it feels like another chore and instils some "bad conscience" feeling that I am not handling it myself. I would suggest, since the modular thing is not available, AT LEAST to change that feature so that it did not rely on how good your assistant was but simply made some neutral choices always and then removed the stuff from the GUI.

Well, maybe I have just outgrown the game. I do not have the time to play that I once had...

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Morten M. Olsen said:

Ok, fair enough. Then, for me at least, the main gripe probably just is that the "game" feeling has gone. I feel like I am working and not relaxing when playing. Again, less can be more. It might actually be a better game by being simplified. Not dumbed-down, but simplified/streamlined.

But perhaps I am not in the majority here - many of the users might want the extreme levels of detail. For me it has just become too much. I would be very interested if it was possible at some point to make it modular so there was complete freedom in choosing what you wanted included. I can understand that this is hard to do, though.

I understand that I can do the assistant manager thing. But it feels like another chore and instils some "bad conscience" feeling that I am not handling it myself. I would suggest, since the modular thing is not available, AT LEAST to change that feature so that it did not rely on how good your assistant was but simply made some neutral choices always and then removed the stuff from the GUI.

Well, maybe I have just outgrown the game. I do not have the time to play that I once had...

I think you really need to give FM Touch a go.

[shirajzl]

Morten, please give FMT a fair go. I've tried it on FM 15 (when it was called classic) and never looked back to this day. I'll play FMT 17 as well.

You can run as many leagues as you want (assuming you're on PC/laptop), the core aspects of the game are the main focus; tactics and transfers. Both of them are as in depth as in full FM. On the other hand, there are no team talks, extensive player interaction, team meeting, press conferences, endless faffing about the staff and their stars etc. etc. I even forgot all the things that used to annoy me with full FM, that's how much I've been enjoying FMC 15 and FMT 16.

SI marketing of FMT is awful, starting from the name of the bloody thing onwards. People get the feeling it's an FM version of Candy Crush. No, it's not. It's not dumbed down, it's not easier, it's just streamlined.

Don't feel like playing FMT is beneath you, I've seen that too many times around FM forums. 

[Craigus89]

17 hours ago, Svenc said:

Didn't want this post to come off as if it was mainly about (AI) tactics, as the difference with older version also was the aforementioned scouting and transfer markets and AI team slumps and more -- generally by and large the better teams simply win more games (unless they're set up horribly)....... FM will never be a purely tactics sim, despite what the sub forums suggest (in which, unsurprisingly, people gather and write lots of stuff as they enjoy that and immersive themselves into that part, including writing about it as if it were the "real" thing -- it's probably missing a "playing it simple" thing. As the place is run by tactic enthusiasts mostly naturally, it paints a bit of a wrong picture on occasion). The basics haven't changed in any of the more recent version.. So therefore can't relate to that personally, though I've never been the type who made weak teams sitting atop tables on any version.

I do think you make a very good point about the tactics side of the game and this forum, too much emphasis can be put on this aspect of the game, which I think is because older versions were easier to play.

Ultimately, this is a football management simulation. IRL the best teams have the best players and that is why they win. In the real world, we rarely if ever see a team have a new innovative tactic and rise up through the leagues, that usually happens as a result of good financial management on the part of the club or an injection of money. The better teams with better players winning more often than not (regardless of tactical system to an extent) I feel is a more accurate representation of the real world, which is what this game is supposed to be, no? I realise we are all different and a balance has to be struck between a pure simulation and a game.

I personally don't see how you could have much more than a couple of hours enjoyment from a game where you plug in one tactical system that dominates everyone, sign some wonderkids and then sim 4 or 5 seasons whilst watching a club climb up form league 2 rise up through the leagues and win the champions league. Fair enough if that is what you want, maybe give FMT a go, but don't come moaning on here when you aren't having the same success you used to have.

However, there does appear to be some massive rose-tinted glasses being worn by some in this thread.

[Morten M. Olsen]

2 hours ago, shirajzl said:

Morten, please give FMT a fair go. I've tried it on FM 15 (when it was called classic) and never looked back to this day. I'll play FMT 17 as well.

You can run as many leagues as you want (assuming you're on PC/laptop), the core aspects of the game are the main focus; tactics and transfers. Both of them are as in depth as in full FM. On the other hand, there are no team talks, extensive player interaction, team meeting, press conferences, endless faffing about the staff and their stars etc. etc. I even forgot all the things that used to annoy me with full FM, that's how much I've been enjoying FMC 15 and FMT 16.

SI marketing of FMT is awful, starting from the name of the bloody thing onwards. People get the feeling it's an FM version of Candy Crush. No, it's not. It's not dumbed down, it's not easier, it's just streamlined.

Don't feel like playing FMT is beneath you, I've seen that too many times around FM forums. 

Ok, I guess I should. Though I find it hard to do with the new name (touch). "Classic" was a much better name!

[BoxToBox]

FM Touch is where it's at! It's not perfect, nothing in life is, but it is excellent.

[Lord Rowell]

1 hour ago, Morten M. Olsen said:

Ok, I guess I should. Though I find it hard to do with the new name (touch). "Classic" was a much better name!

They are the same though. I agree with the earlier suggestions, I think FMT or "Classic" would be exactly what you are looking for

[grade]

6 hours ago, shirajzl said:

Morten, please give FMT a fair go. I've tried it on FM 15 (when it was called classic) and never looked back to this day. I'll play FMT 17 as well.

You can run as many leagues as you want (assuming you're on PC/laptop), the core aspects of the game are the main focus; tactics and transfers. Both of them are as in depth as in full FM. On the other hand, there are no team talks, extensive player interaction, team meeting, press conferences, endless faffing about the staff and their stars etc. etc. I even forgot all the things that used to annoy me with full FM, that's how much I've been enjoying FMC 15 and FMT 16.

SI marketing of FMT is awful, starting from the name of the bloody thing onwards. People get the feeling it's an FM version of Candy Crush. No, it's not. It's not dumbed down, it's not easier, it's just streamlined.

Don't feel like playing FMT is beneath you, I've seen that too many times around FM forums. 

The lack of an editor in FMT, makes me not use it at 100% of the time.

[BoxToBox]

37 minutes ago, grade said:

The lack of an editor in FMT, makes me not use it at 100% of the time.

That's one of the few things I'd like changed in FMT, it's annoying to not have the same custom league options when in full mode you can find data packs for leagues like San Marino, Gibraltar, or countries much lower leagues, some of which I'd really love to try. Not to mention stuff like chucking the Old Firm into England.

[Los_Culés]

FMT is streamlined which is certainly a good thing but it is streamlined too much.

No editor, notes, youth teams, very few skins, very few staff.... these things surely do not bother FMers. IMO no point to streamline in this way... unlike press conferences, team talks etc. Great that these are excluded.

Shame that the tactical creator can not be excluded as well to have complete freedom in my tactical choices :).

[Guest]

You do realise that the classic tactic system used in in FM11 was more complex? Very few people actually knew what they were doing & for most it was a case of copy others or start a min/max exercise until you hit the sweet spot.

[shirajzl]

30 minutes ago, Los_Culés said:

 

No editor, notes, youth teams, very few skins, very few staff.... these things surely do not bother FMers. IMO no point to streamline in this way... unlike press conferences, team talks etc. Great that these are excluded.

 

 I guess it's a matter of preference, but team talks, player and media interaction were the main things people were moaning about which lead to creation of FMC(T). People didn't (don't) seem to care much about staff, notes or youth teams so it's all the same.

I personally like that you don't have to stress about the staff that much, youth teams exist in FMT anyway (just not different layers of u21, u18, but one general youth/reserve team), I never used editor or notes...I agree the lack of skins is a problem, but then again it's nothing on SI since most of the good skins are made by fans (who obviously don't care about FMT enough to make skins for it).

FMT is far from perfect, but still a great solution to the problem many FMers have, but refuse to give it a chance.

[Los_Culés]

2 hours ago, Barside said:

You do realise that the classic tactic system used in in FM11 was more complex? Very few people actually knew what they were doing & for most it was a case of copy others or start a min/max exercise until you hit the sweet spot.

Sure, I realise that. And I like complexity where it matters (ie. tactics, playing style). I could combine things and create a playing style I favour (based on real life preferences, not meant to exploit anything). I have never said that the tools in achieving so (sliders) were ideal, but these were just tools I had.

With rigid tactic creator it's a different story. Also as I have already said tactic creator can stay, it's surely great for beginners, but lets allow it to be customizable, fully customizable. I feel limited by somebody's else perception of football.

If the game developers perceive fluid as compact style with more creative freedom, ok. I respect that, But please do not force me to use it. I like to be compact, but why the hell it should have any influence on creative freedom of my players. Would anybody eg. classify Atlético Madrid, probably the most compact side in the world, as fluid? In FM 11 I can just go out of these boundaries. And this is just an example.

[Sherdil]

To the OP,

Whichever version you enjoy the most, you should play that. To each his own, right!

However, I for instance do not find crosses overpowered nor do I find fullback positioning as terrible.

For me, it is all about TACTICS and player quality. You have to tweak and adjust your tactics for each version of FM depending on the engine. Certain tactics and way of playing makes my team concede almost no goals at all. So, I think you should invest time on trying out and tweaking tactics instead of playing the same tactic that worked for you in previous versions, which might not be as effective in this year's engine.

But if not, then go ahead and play FM11 as much as you like.

[radosst]

i went to fmt because of all the media nonsense, and i also miss some of the full game features. i don't get why we can't just have the option to play the full mode with media interactions reduced the way they are in fmt. handing media talks to assistant is not a real solution, as it may affect performance and squad negatively. 

i also agree that something should be done about not being able to implement some tactical tweaks. i miss the possibility of adjusting my players positioning/mentality/creative freedom individually. for example, i'm now playing with two ball winning midfieldiers on support. firstly, i'd like to be able to switch off the tackle harder instruction, secondly i'd want to be able to play one of them a bit deeper, behind the other one. i don't think that's possible now. of course, i could use another role and turn it into a bwm, but... it won't be the same because of different mentality, closing down and other things. i could also switch one of my bwm to defend, but this will also change a lot of his other behaviour, like passing etc. i don't get why there are instructions that you can't switch off, and why you can't manually adjust mentality for every player/role. even if these are considered "core" apects of the role, let me rename the role  so i can play the tactics i want to...

same goes for team instructions - if fluidity is in fact controlling at least two or even three "sliders" why can't we have separate instructions for them. maybe i want my players to be very creative but stick to their assigned positions? this is impossible to implement now.

also i agree that there is smth very wrong with finishing, especially clear-cut one on one chances. these should in most cases be goals, while in game even strikers with high composure and high finishing will miss 9/10 one on one situations.

gks act very unrealistically, especially when they push the ball away, but it is still quite close to them. they often stand up, look around and generally behave like they have no idea what's going on, instead of just jumping for the ball again, even if they are lying on the ground. this leads to situations when the ball is on the goal line, the keeper is lying next to it, but ignores the ball and a striker and a defender will fight for the ball, while the gk is standing up and doing "situation check routine". in reality the gk would instinctively try to catch the ball or at least get it as far from the goal as possible as quickly as possible by every mean possible.

that said, i think the me is improving gradually.

[aditya]

FM 16 is the year of the fullbacks. Bellerin is getting easy 20+ assist a season in my save. A couple of FM ago I remember corner kick has a major  bug. 

[Cougar2010]

6 hours ago, radosst said:

i went to fmt because of all the media nonsense, and i also miss some of the full game features. i don't get why we can't just have the option to play the full mode with media interactions reduced the way they are in fmt. handing media talks to assistant is not a real solution, as it may affect performance and squad negatively.

Sorry but this isn't an issue in the slightest.

You have the option to delegate just as you would in real life and how good a job their do depends on their attributes.

Sure they may make a bad choice from time to time which would affect performance & the squad but then you might make more or less bad choices if you choose to do them yourself.  In fact I would estimate that most users will make more bad choices in this area than a half decent AM over the course of a season.

[Guest]

tbf the fact that a poor decision can be made does mean it can still be an issue, personally it's part & parcel of playing the full sim mode & should remain the case with FMT providing the less intrusive interaction system.

[Cougar2010]

22 minutes ago, Barside said:

tbf the fact that a poor decision can be made does mean it can still be an issue, personally it's part & parcel of playing the full sim mode & should remain the case with FMT providing the less intrusive interaction system.

Are you suggesting that staff shouldn't make mistakes or am I missing your point?

[HUNT3R]

I'm sure the point was by switching to FMT, you eliminate the possibility of making mistakes in the press or with talks.

People make far too much of it anyway (not talking about Barside here). If it's that much of a worry, get someone with good Motivation. He rarely, if ever, 'messes up'.

I've tried (in FM14) to say the complete opposite of what I should say and still managed to get results, so even an average user or assistant will be just fine.

[Cougar2010]

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm sure the point was by switching to FMT, you eliminate the possibility of making mistakes in the press or with talks.

I'm presuming though that FMT also eliminates the benefits of a good team talk/press interaction so in effect it balances out in which case I wouldn't consider it an issue.

 

 

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

People make far too much of it anyway (not talking about Barside here) because it's not that much of an influence. 

I'm a bit torn on this if I'm honest.

We know team talks only affect the first 15 mins of a half & that they get overridden by what happens on the pitch.  On the surface that doesn't seem like much of an influence but based on my experience I can see why users claim they are OP.

Team talks set the foundations for the match and with two fairly even teams which is often the case they can make the difference in the match.  If the opposition give a good team talk you can be under pressure during those first 15 minutes and if the opposition take their chances then that changes the rest of the match.  If they give a bad team talk you could have one hand on the win inside 15 mins.  On the flipside the same goes for your team.

Essentially 15 mins into the first half the shape of the match could have considerably altered based on the team talks given by each side.  I'm not saying its wrong or that it doesn't happen IRL but I can understand why some users get frustrated with it.

 

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

I'm presuming though that FMT also eliminates the benefits of a good team talk/press interaction so in effect it balances out in which case I wouldn't consider it an issue.

 

Indeed. And if you're just average, and team talks aren't hard so you can at least be, you'll be more than fine.

[Svenc]

I'm squarely in the "talks are a tad overrated" camp. It's not that they have slight influences, but that's it, slight. You're never ever under pressure because of some magic talks applied by magic AI (who supposedly always says the "right" thing to "make magic happen"). You're under pressure first and foremost as an AI actually goes out with fairly attacking tactics and pushes up upon dropping balls to win it back early rather than dropping off to let you dominate the pitch. Key bit to recognize is that it's a dynamic thing, and changes are made mostly according to current scorelines during matches also. It's comparably easy reading though, simply count how many players are actually pushed up from their default/defensive position, in particular the wide defensive guys, and check how quickly they drop off or stand their ground (right at the half way line) conversely if your team regains possession, there you go.

Generally good point about that anything can tip things in/against your favor, which includes pep talks as well. The match play in FM as in real football goes for "90 minutes", and ties are settled in pitifully few key moments, even seconds. Those may actually come off bugged behavior, or yeah, a magic talk tipping the balance slightly. Still remember SI staff coming out with the 'fession that it's hard stretch to attribute any specific action to a talk though. You see the black and white feedback on it and it becomes easy to attribute all that's happening thereafter to it. I.e. the long-term myths that giving praise at HT would be an invitation for desaster in the second half.

Must say though that often whenever somebody claimed to have been "outplayed" or their side would "magically" play completely poor after HT (presumably because magic talks off the opposition and vice versa for himself) or anything like that, when the match was uploaded as pkm, I personally saw this quite differently. The actually full-on approaches have hugely more of a bearing on changing dynamics of a match than anything else, in particular tactics. As the instructions on FM you have basically determine positioning, that is they are the key factor which areas of a pitch are overloaded with players during attacks, which aren't, and where there's passing support and where isn't, same as where there's defensive cover or not, this is probably hardly a surprise. Speaking 'bout tactics and overall approaches, I had one match where the AI fielded three of its key attacking key players in the second half of a match when trailing, presumably because they weren't fully match fit. As those were really strong players for the level, and the starters replacing them nowhere near, that in itself made for a hugely different 2nd spell of the match.

[Klimowicz]

Not particularly related to the topic but when will I ever post about FM11 again, right?

I've bought every FM apart from 16 and I'm still playing FM11. I started with a mediocre PC so I'm only running 3 countries (Holland, Germany & Belgium) but I'm controlling 11 club sides and 4 national teams. The longevity comes from reinventing the game for myself (and using FMRTE to modify things like a wonderkid goalkeeper who's only 5 foot 3 inches tall). Never made a team super rich by editing, sold to buy only.

For example, I could win 7/9 titles with Ajax but try my hardest to turn VVV Venlo & ADO Den Haag into top 4 sides and progress from there, that more often than not turns in to a relegation battle which is actually more enjoyable. Moenchengladbach were fighting a relegation battle in the third division, so this is my next project. Players who wouldn't get anywhere near Ajax/Dortmund reserve team could make a massive difference to them, which is also fun.  Two of my teams, Hertha Berlin & Wolfsbug, battled it out for the title last season, which certainly kept me interested more than Bayern, Dortmund or Stuttgart did. 

I'm sure that I could have done similar things on FM12-15, but I've invested so many hours into this save that I keep going back. Whatever difference the tactics make on more recent versions doesn't matter to me, I enjoy FM11 more than the others, despite the improvements. 2010 was a good year for sports games in general imo, although I couldn't go back to Madden, MLB etc as much as FM.

[radosst]

16 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Sorry but this isn't an issue in the slightest.

You have the option to delegate just as you would in real life and how good a job their do depends on their attributes.

Sure they may make a bad choice from time to time which would affect performance & the squad but then you might make more or less bad choices if you choose to do them yourself.  In fact I would estimate that most users will make more bad choices in this area than a half decent AM over the course of a season.

yes, i could also make bad choices, but then at least i know i'm responsible for the situation. i'm pretty "hands on" and i don't want to delegate things which can really affect the team - it can make the difference between winning a division/cup and losing it. the problem with media interaction is, that it is insanely repetitive. it feels like a chore to click through all of the answers, especially when after a few seasons you know all the possible questions. i apprieciate the effort put into this, but i think this is a dead end - it seems it is impossible to simulate this well when it is being given so much focus and game time. it works quite well though, still not without flaws, in fmt. there are also glaring issues in full fm (sometimes similiar things happen also in fmt, but due to the fact that interactions are much rarer it is not so painful), when i.e. my key player is coming back from injury, and i'm being asked pre-match why is he in the team and the most plausible answer seems to be that i believe in his ability to do well, and things like that. well, he is a key player, the other guy was just playing beacuse this one was injured, you moron - i'd like to be able to say, but no option close to this appears. so, apart from being repetitive, a lot of questions are just way off and break immersion because you really see that things that would seem obvious to any human are misinterpreted and misrepresented by the code. 

[Los_Culés]

Seeing that one huge game immersion breaking bug in FM16 - CROSSING + fullbacks positioning was replaced by another, also totally unrealistic one - WINGERS STAYING TOO WIDE WHEN DEFENDING (which btw. same as crossing bug in FM16  will not be fixed by SI).  So glad I did not buy FM17. 

[KUBI]

1 minute ago, Los_Culés said:

Seeing that one huge game immersion breaking bug in FM16 - CROSSING + fullbacks positioning was replaced by another, also totally unrealistic one - WINGERS STAYING TOO WIDE WHEN DEFENDING (which btw. same as crossing bug in FM16  will not be fixed by SI).  So glad I did not buy FM17. 

So you did play the FM 2017 demo?

[Cougar2010]

7 minutes ago, Los_Culés said:

Seeing that one huge game immersion breaking bug in FM16 - CROSSING + fullbacks positioning was replaced by another, also totally unrealistic one - WINGERS STAYING TOO WIDE WHEN DEFENDING (which btw. same as crossing bug in FM16  will not be fixed by SI).  So glad I did not buy FM17. 

Good to see you've made your decision after having played the game and formed your own opinion

The wingers staying too wide is most certainly partly down to peoples opinions and as you should expect people have different opinions as to where players should be positioned. 

SI will never create a ME that everyone agrees with because people have different opinions.