Player Attribute Changes in Latest Data Update (16.3)

[WayneRomney]

Hey dSquib,

If you have any specific issues with the data that you consider bug worthy, please do head over here - http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/504-Database-and-Research-Issues - and post in the appropriate thread. That way it will get seen by the guys who matter. It is important to note that you need some evidence, such as stats, to back up any suggestions you have.

Cheers,

Seb.

According to whoscored Ronaldo is at 6.8%, while the Pjanic has got the best % with nearly 18.4%.

https://www.whoscored.com/News/3hg891ee9ee4ka5mkl7pja/Show/Player-Focus-Messi-Ronaldo-Cant-Compete-Among-Best-Free-Kick-Takers

[Welshace]

According to whoscored Ronaldo is at 6.8%, while the Pjanic has got the best % with nearly 18.4%.

https://www.whoscored.com/News/3hg891ee9ee4ka5mkl7pja/Show/Player-Focus-Messi-Ronaldo-Cant-Compete-Among-Best-Free-Kick-Takers

Feel free to post in the correct forum about this, as Seb has mentioned in the very post you quoted.

[WayneRomney]

Feel free to post in the correct forum about this, as Seb has mentioned in the very post you quoted.

I will not.

[Welshace]

Not a problem, not sure the point of posting anything about it at all then tbh

[ben carter]

First one I have seen is Rúben Neves. Looks to have got a big bump. There's probably others too but I just looked for the obvious youngsters at first.

One player I thought may have got a significant bump was Marlos Moreno from Colombia. He's been touted as the next big talent out of South America and he's getting rave reviews from top outlets. One for FM17 I hope.

[Welshace]

Hi Ben.. if you'd read the thread, you'd have seen we can't have CA/PA spoilers in here I'm afraid.

[ben carter]

Hi Ben.. if you'd read the thread, you'd have seen we can't have CA/PA spoilers in here I'm afraid.

Sorry about that. Lets just say Rúben Neves is real real good now

[Welshace]

Haha , yes he is

[scott MUFC]

hmm

[Sky]

The boosts to Leicester a little bit crazy... Danny Drinkwater and Vardy are now worth £22.5m and £24m respectively. As if England wasn't OP enough! However, I admit this does make the game a bit interesting.

[Welshace]

I agree some of the prices are over the top, but that's a symptom of rep change more than anything else... Although Vardy's is probably about right tbh..

That said, I am surprised by some of Leicesters player boosts... seems to be a bit much in some cases, but I guess i'll reserve real judgement until I see how they perform in game.

[Spurs08]

Vardy looksoverly strong to me. Could look very strange next year if Leicester are in mid-table, out of the CL in the group stages without a win and Vardy struggles to hit double figures! Would not be an impossible bumpp back to Earth for them. Half a season of good form doesn't really seem enough for a player to get key attributes in the 18-20 range; surely that should represent a player who'd been one of the best in the world for years consistently playing at the top level of the game in those attributes?

[Welshace]

Vardy looks ridiculous. What an embarassment that's going to be to SI next year when Leicester are in mid-table, out of the CL in the group stages without a win and Vardy struggles to hit double figures. Since when was half a season of good form enough for a player to get key attributes in the 18-20 range? That should represent a player who'd been one of the best in the world for years playing at the top level of the game.

I agree to an extent, I think he is overdone ...

Having said that, to play devils advocate here for a second.. look at which attributes he has 18-20 in ...

Bravery, Aggression, Determination, Teamwork and Workrate ... not sure If I could fault any of that given his current form over the last year or so.

Acceleration, Pace and Natural Fitness.... again, not sure I could say too out of the realms of reality.

Add to that, some mediocre stats elsewhere and he's not as overrated as a first glance would suggest to me.

[santy001]

Leicesters overall squad ratings aren't much stronger than Stoke, Southampton or Everton and are quite comfortably below the likes of Liverpool. The changes look somewhat more amplified than you might expect because of where the Leicester team has gone in the space of 12 months.

[JaYmZeE]

Fair enough, although if you see how they both perform for a season, you will see Van Dijk (a favourite of mine) in the top 5 cb's in the premiership .. which is probably about right imo

As for Iheanacho.. he is promising but he hasn't shown a great deal yet other than promise.. that said, he soon gets a wonderkid status in game on all my saves thus far showing his potential and talent.

Van Dijks a class act - stuck out like a sore thumb up ere - he's just gonna get better too - guaranteed to end up a Real Madrid or the like.

[Welshace]

Van Dijks a class act - stuck out like a sore thumb up ere - he's just gonna get better too - guaranteed to end up a Real Madrid or the like.

Yeah I don't think anyone could say that...

Go back a year or two and you could have said the same thing of Lovren who was performing to similar levels..

[Welshace]

I certainly think the likes of Fuchs, Drinkwater and Danny Simpson have been over estimated for example, but it is only natural when they are clearly over performing like they are currently in a pretty unusual season.

[JaYmZeE]

Yeah I don't think anyone could say that...

Go back a year or two and you could have said the same thing of Lovren who was performing to similar levels..

Not in my mind - although I wasn't watching Lovren etc like Van Dijk - I'll happily stick my neck out for this boy - only thing that can stop him is a cruciate or the like - I'm a big fan of centre halfs who can play and I can't think of many better at the moment.

Oh yeah - add to that run as well.

[upthetoon]

Vardy looks ridiculous. What an embarassment that's going to be to SI next year when Leicester are in mid-table, out of the CL in the group stages without a win and Vardy struggles to hit double figures. Since when was half a season of good form enough for a player to get key attributes in the 18-20 range? That should represent a player who'd been one of the best in the world for years playing at the top level of the game.

yes. looking at that stats.....lol

even Harry Kane in an excellent first season did not get that much of a rise until recently.

[Spurs08]

I agree to an extent, I think he is overdone ...

Having said that, to play devils advocate here for a second.. look at which attributes he has 18-20 in ...

Bravery, Aggression, Determination, Teamwork and Workrate ... not sure If I could fault any of that given his current form over the last year or so.

Acceleration, Pace and Natural Fitness.... again, not sure I could say too out of the realms of reality.

Add to that, some mediocre stats elsewhere and he's not as overrated as a first glance would suggest to me.

For me though, a lot of them have to do with both motivation and fitness. Throughout the period where he's earned those attributes (I.E. presumabely not through the first 28 or so games last season when Leicester where bottom and he was frankly pretty poor), Leicester have been on a massive high which obviously results in huge motivation and morale and a greater inclination to run around. That's been combined with a very light fixture schedule and a stable team. Whilst he's certainly good, I think that these circumstances completely overstate his teamwork, workrate and natural fitness in particular, and arguably his acceleration/pace as well - he didn't show any evidence of them before this season when he was playing in less stable teams with more fixtures who weren't at the pinnacle of their game.

[Paolo di Canio]

Italian researchers maintain their tradition of no CA/PA/attribute changes in winter update seemingly.

true. I'm a Lazio fan, and I expected our defenders to be massively downgraded. It didn't happen, of course. I hadn't started any Lazio career so far because having such great defenders was extremely unrealistic, I guess now I'll have to use the editor myself.

[phnompenhandy]

For me though, a lot of them have to do with both motivation and fitness.

Yes, and both of those are down to the manager. It's been widely noted over the course of this season that Spurs and Leicester's managers have pre-season and in-season fitness regimes that are very different to other clubs. You take Vardy, Mahrez or even Drinkwater out of the Leicester side and have them play for another club and they will revert to pre-Ranieri type (as I expect we shall see next season).

In FM this is very important. Many FM managers will buy Vardy, Kane etc for their United or Liverpool teams and expect them to perform as they do with their current clubs. I don't think they should.

What would be better, but maybe not really possible in the current FM set-up, is if the FM manager could attempt to replicate Leicester or Spurs' training and tactics.

With training I think it would break most players and you'd have a treatment room more crowded than at Old Trafford. You'd have to start to scouring the transfer market for players with exceptional natural fitness and take it from there.

[ejawilson]

Dele Alli, I'm keen to hear if it's just me being a Spurs fan but does anyone else feel his attributes and PA are not really representative of the player? I'm trying to not be too specific on CA/PA

Specifically his PA compared to other players such as Luke Shaw, Wilshere, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Berahino, Hughes, Smalling, Welbeck, Henderson, Grealish, Ben Garratt, Butland & Barkley

It seems he is well down the pecking order for prospects in England when I would say he is number 1 (or at least equal with Barkley, Stones & Sterling)

In terms of specific attributes he doesn't have a single one over 15 and others that look under reviewed (Aggression at 8 is a stand out!)

I would say he is currently a star for a top 4 side (maybe biased) so he seems very low on all the scales we have seen in the past

One final point is his PA in comparison to Bentaleb!

[HugoDantes]

FAMARA DIEDHIOU didnt get a upgrade

20 goals so far in Ligue 2.

[clokey1988]

Dele Alli, I'm keen to hear if it's just me being a Spurs fan but does anyone else feel his attributes and PA are not really representative of the player? I'm trying to not be too specific on CA/PA

Specifically his PA compared to other players such as Luke Shaw, Wilshere, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Berahino, Hughes, Smalling, Welbeck, Henderson, Grealish, Ben Garratt, Butland & Barkley

It seems he is well down the pecking order for prospects in England when I would say he is number 1 (or at least equal with Barkley, Stones & Sterling)

In terms of specific attributes he doesn't have a single one over 15 and others that look under reviewed (Aggression at 8 is a stand out!)

I would say he is currently a star for a top 4 side (maybe biased) so he seems very low on all the scales we have seen in the past

One final point is his PA in comparison to Bentaleb!

I don't think you have to be a Spurs fan to be surprised at his PA remaining unchanged from 16.2. I'm certainly not a Spurs fan and it immediately stood out to me as weird, what more does a player have to do to suggest his potential is higher than previously assessed? I'll definitely be giving his PA a bump with the editor.

[Welshace]

Dele Alli is an all rounder in the game and gets wonderkid status in less than a season usually, I wouldn't say his potential is off.. his stats reflect his all round work ethic really.

[ejawilson]

Dele Alli is an all rounder in the game and gets wonderkid status in less than a season usually, I wouldn't say his potential is off.. his stats reflect his all round work ethic really.

Would you agree with his status (PA wise) with other players in game, compared to the English players I mention and the likes Goretzka, Meyer, Martial, Depay etc.

I would argue he is in that bracket, in real life, for European wide young players but not in game.

I know people will argue it may all go wrong, look at Jenas etc. but everything about his personality implies barring injury it shouldn't and if we took that approach with all players everyone's CA and PA would be equal once they get into the first team

[BoxToBox]

Alli is so well balanced though, and good in every area, he's an absolute monster.

[ejawilson]

Alli is so well balanced though, and good in every area, he's an absolute monster.

In real life or the game?

I don't see him as a monster in game, he doesn't get in my Spurs team from 16.2.0, I have Sanches, Cubas, Samper, Eriksen and Tielemans all ahead of him and he is a versatile sub, he just doesn't excel at any role enough.

He's good in game, and can perform in the right role, very well but I feel in real life he can play almost any role in CM and be better than 90% of his peers in those roles, he is best further forward as he does try things that if they don't come off and can put you in trouble (dribbles, passes intercepted etc.) but he just needs more experience to try the right things at the right time.

I've also always been of the understanding that performance in game has no part in setting players attributes and ability, that should all be objectively assessed, as otherwise with a significant change to the ME players would need to reassessed in detail again!

[zeeriboy]

The visible stats of the Leicester players look way overdone for me, while Mahrez is still rated as being as 'left-footed only' player - didn't the SI scouts see his goal against City? Why is Vardy suddenly on the same level as Lewa and Higuain, and is he really better than Muller at finishing (16 for Vardy and 15 for Muller)?

[scott MUFC]

this did this when Athletico won the title as well, I remember Costa getting a massive hike in the january update.

[Welshace]

In real life or the game?

I don't see him as a monster in game, he doesn't get in my Spurs team from 16.2.0, I have Sanches, Cubas, Samper, Eriksen and Tielemans all ahead of him and he is a versatile sub, he just doesn't excel at any role enough.

He's good in game, and can perform in the right role, very well but I feel in real life he can play almost any role in CM and be better than 90% of his peers in those roles, he is best further forward as he does try things that if they don't come off and can put you in trouble (dribbles, passes intercepted etc.) but he just needs more experience to try the right things at the right time.

I've also always been of the understanding that performance in game has no part in setting players attributes and ability, that should all be objectively assessed, as otherwise with a significant change to the ME players would need to reassessed in detail again!

I think you are being biased somewhat when expecting him to compete with the likes of Eriksen, Tielemans etc .... Alli has shown great promise and skill thus far, but there's nothing to suggest he isn't another.. say.. Joe Cole for example...

[effielo]

Vardy's attributes improvement is pretty spotted on, people should have look at Dybala and Morata's attributes instead and tell me those are not overdone..(yea i know Dybala is good...but come on)

[Welshace]

As I've said previously... If you take a glance at Vardy.. you see high stats.. but look where the high stats are... it's all work rate, determination and aggression

[ejawilson]

I think you are being biased somewhat when expecting him to compete with the likes of Eriksen, Tielemans etc .... Alli has shown great promise and skill thus far, but there's nothing to suggest he isn't another.. say.. Joe Cole for example...

Sorry to be clear this is in 2021/22 so when he is max'd out, he just reach's a level that is squad player only for title winning side

[Welshace]

I'd say that has got to be down to your development, I've had him be my number one AMC winning awards and topping charts by that sort of date

[Seb Wassell]

The visible stats of the Leicester players look way overdone for me, while Mahrez is still rated as being as 'left-footed only' player - didn't the SI scouts see his goal against City? Why is Vardy suddenly on the same level as Lewa and Higuain, and is he really better than Muller at finishing (16 for Vardy and 15 for Muller)?

Left foot only does not mean he literally cannot use his right, but it does mean he has a heavy preference for, and is much more accomplished with, his left.

To be fair, whilst he did score with his right against City, when going on one of his many dribbles he almost never touches the ball with his right foot.

However, if you believe you have evidence that suggests the data could do with amending, please do post in the appropriate data bugs forum.

[Seb Wassell]

In real life or the game?

I don't see him as a monster in game, he doesn't get in my Spurs team from 16.2.0, I have Sanches, Cubas, Samper, Eriksen and Tielemans all ahead of him and he is a versatile sub, he just doesn't excel at any role enough.

He's good in game, and can perform in the right role, very well but I feel in real life he can play almost any role in CM and be better than 90% of his peers in those roles, he is best further forward as he does try things that if they don't come off and can put you in trouble (dribbles, passes intercepted etc.) but he just needs more experience to try the right things at the right time.

I've also always been of the understanding that performance in game has no part in setting players attributes and ability, that should all be objectively assessed, as otherwise with a significant change to the ME players would need to reassessed in detail again!

To be fair almost every one of those players you mention I would name as better, or at least having the potential to be better, than Alli in reality.

Myself I've found that Alli can be moulded into one of several roles, performing each to a Champions League standard, or allowed to develop into an all-round England starter.

However, if you believe Alli requires adjusting, please do post in the appropriate thread in the data bugs forum, along with evidence (stats etc.) supporting your case.

Cheers,

Seb.

[ejawilson]

I'd say that has got to be down to your development, I've had him be my number one AMC winning awards and topping charts by that sort of date

He's at his max PA, the in game editor confirms he is attributes are at that level as well, he plays well and would probably be good for a lot of teams but he is not as good as the players I mention.

Generally the argument that he is an all round player is applied to players with high PA, i.e. because they have no obvious weakness they need more ability points whereas players like Vardy with very specific strengths can be lower ability but perform just as well because they have key attributes.

For Alli I can see no obvious flaw in his game and would expect him to become a very, very good player, this is why I would expect him to have a similar PA to players like Goretzka, Sterling, Meyer etc.

As I say not Messi, Neymar level but that next level down.

I'm trying to look at it objectively so ignore in game performance where possible and just look at his PA in comparison to his peers in game

[ejawilson]

To be fair almost every one of those players you mention I would name as better, or at least having the potential to be better, than Alli in reality.

Myself I've found that Alli can be moulded into one of several roles, performing each to a Champions League standard, or allowed to develop into an all-round England starter. However, if you believe Alli requires adjusting, please do post in the appropriate thread in the data bugs forum, along with evidence (stats etc.) supporting your case.

Cheers,

Seb.

Ok

Out of interest what is it about players that play in leagues like Portugal, Belgium and Argentina that would suggest they will be better? (I'm not asking this to be difficult genuine question)

I look at players like Anderson, Nani, Hulk etc. for Portugal, Defour, Witsel etc. for Belgium and any number of players for South America (Saviola, Daimaio etc.) who look like potential world beaters early on but go on to never come close to the level they are assessed at in FM.

Alli has performed consistently in the Premier League at 19 and he really has looked a fantastic prospect and I just don't see what is making people say he is never going to reach an ability level that would make him a key player for a Champions League club

[s1111]

Kante is now on the level of Matuidi and Khedira with the potential to surpass that....he's very good but he's plays in a system that requires him to be a key player and gets the best out of him, he's not shown over a long period of time to be considered on the level of elite ball-winners/box to box midfielders.

Danny Simpson would now start for half the teams in the PL, but he's clearly the weak link at Leicester and will be the first to be replaced in the summer.

Mahrez is actually spot on, he's the one Leicester player who would could really be a guaranteed success at a bigger club and is rated accordingly.

Vardy is a difficult one, I think he was fine before the update personally. His attributes are somewhat comparable to a player like Aubameyang, who's scored 40+ goals for a big club in the last 12 months and is being talked about as a £60m player....

Is Drinkwater really close to Cabaye and Fernandinho?

[Welshace]

Ok

Out of interest what is it about players that play in leagues like Portugal, Belgium and Argentina that would suggest they will be better? (I'm not asking this to be difficult genuine question)

I look at players like Anderson, Nani, Hulk etc. for Portugal, Defour, Witsel etc. for Belgium and any number of players for South America (Saviola, Daimaio etc.) who look like potential world beaters early on but go on to never come close to the level they are assessed at in FM.

Alli has performed consistently in the Premier League at 19 and he really has looked a fantastic prospect and I just don't see what is making people say he is never going to reach an ability level that would make him a key player for a Champions League club

Alli has had basically a season of playing decently when he's been involved.. the players you mentioned had seasons of performing to a good level before transferring over..

Far too early to give him the praise you give him imo ... comparing him to the level below Messi and co? I see no merit in that argument and i'm a huge fan of his, have been from the MK Dons and as a follower of the leagues below the prem.

Give him time and he may prove me wrong, however, I tend to compare his performance with other players I've seen in his position at his age like Joe Cole and the like...

No-one has said he won't reach a champions league club level player though.. and he does reach this level consistently in game at his current level too, particularly in the newest update with the tweaks he has seemingly had.

[Welshace]

So as the original post alludes too, this thread should really be split into two.. it was kept open as a 'first day of the update' place to casually discuss interesting changes..

It's served it's purpose and is turning into an unofficial place to complain about changes.

If you have anything to discuss re. players in general, feel free to post in the relevant threads in GPTG, it needs some love tbh:

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/21-Good-Player-amp-Team-Guide

Or those with specific issues with changes... please post in the data bugs forums here:

http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/504-Database-and-Research-Issues

Cheers guys

On second thoughts... will just move it to GPTG..

[rastaman219]

Kante is now on the level of Matuidi and Khedira with the potential to surpass that....he's very good but he's plays in a system that requires him to be a key player and gets the best out of him, he's not shown over a long period of time to be considered on the level of elite ball-winners/box to box midfielders.

Danny Simpson would now start for half the teams in the PL, but he's clearly the weak link at Leicester and will be the first to be replaced in the summer.

Mahrez is actually spot on, he's the one Leicester player who would could really be a guaranteed success at a bigger club and is rated accordingly.

Vardy is a difficult one, I think he was fine before the update personally. His attributes are somewhat comparable to a player like Aubameyang, who's scored 40+ goals for a big club in the last 12 months and is being talked about as a £60m player....

Is Drinkwater really close to Cabaye and Fernandinho?

Looking at Drinkwater this season, he doesn't look any worse than the players in question. Its a tricky line as a player performing well and on form would need to have higher ratings due to how FM works. Its not like FIFA for example where the players are controlled by a human, so if someone is performing well and getting praise like Drinkwater has, he would need a stat boost. There isn't any other way to replicate it in the game.

[hahawas]

I've ran two first season tests and Leicester certainly are buffed but not enough to really break long term games. They've finished 4th-7th in the games I looked at, which very well might be the case next year. The transfer values do seem a bit inflated but I imagine thats the PL value adding rather than the player stats value.

Other note is that like 70% of the PL teams are now "Rich". That TV Money.

[clokey1988]

Alli has had basically a season of playing decently when he's been involved.. the players you mentioned had seasons of performing to a good level before transferring over..

Far too early to give him the praise you give him imo ... comparing him to the level below Messi and co? I see no merit in that argument and i'm a huge fan of his, have been from the MK Dons and as a follower of the leagues below the prem.

Give him time and he may prove me wrong, however, I tend to compare his performance with other players I've seen in his position at his age like Joe Cole and the like...

No-one has said he won't reach a champions league club level player though.. and he does reach this level consistently in game at his current level too, particularly in the newest update with the tweaks he has seemingly had.

I can see both arguments, but I do think it is odd that he has the same fixed PA as a League One goalkeeper or Jack Grealish - both of whom are older than Alli, and achieved nowhere *near* as much as him.

Personally I think Alli would still be better served by a PA range: a -9 would still suit him perfectly IMHO. Potential to be genuinely world class, or potential to be about where he is now in-game. I know generally fixed PAs are preferred for players who have played a lot of first team football, but Alli is still a teenager so I think his development could still go a number of ways, best represented by a range.

[dSquib]

Mahrez, Vardy and Kante are the players the researchers have decided are the real deal, a gamble of sorts. There's a tendency to think overrating a player is worse than under rating but research should be equally concerned with both IMO. My feeling is Vardy is one of the best around at doing what he does. He's not a rounded player and thus not world class. You still wouldn't fancy him to make something happen in a tight spot.

Would agree that Drinkwater is overrated but he's been that useful to Leicester.

[Welshace]

Think Mahrez is a class act.. everyone can see it... that isn't just form imo..

Vardy has the right attributes in the right places.. in game and irl... but as you said, not world class, he can't do everything ala Lewa etc .. and this is reflected in game .. he has average premiership stats in key places.. composure, first touch, decisions etc..

Kante is a risk at this point I would say, he's been a revelation and the closest we've seen to a Vieira like character who takes hold of a game by the scruff of the neck for a long time... but it needs to be judged over time...

For the game however, it's about right... in comparison to other teams .. Leicester are on par with your Stokes of the world and you will find they tend to finish top 10, possibly top 6... which right now, is correct.

[ejawilson]

Alli has had basically a season of playing decently when he's been involved.. the players you mentioned had seasons of performing to a good level before transferring over..

Far too early to give him the praise you give him imo ... comparing him to the level below Messi and co? I see no merit in that argument and i'm a huge fan of his, have been from the MK Dons and as a follower of the leagues below the prem.

Give him time and he may prove me wrong, however, I tend to compare his performance with other players I've seen in his position at his age like Joe Cole and the like...

No-one has said he won't reach a champions league club level player though.. and he does reach this level consistently in game at his current level too, particularly in the newest update with the tweaks he has seemingly had.

Humm, not sure what you mean by involved, he has started 28 games and came on in 10, only Eric Dier has played more games this season for Spurs.

I'm not saying he is at that level I'm saying he has the POTENTIAL in my opinion to get there, the level of a Bale, Benzema, Kroos, Mata in game.

I was really looking for reasons I may have missed as to why he can't get there rather than explanations as to why isn't already a player at that level in game.

So far I haven't seen or heard any logically argument why he can progress to that level in real life and in game, i.e. he lacks pace, doesn't get his head up, can't finish, lack's composure, the type of arguments we have seen so many times for young English players, Walcott or Lennon 10 years ago for example.

To me he looks one of the very few players England has that does not have any of these limitations

As I say my main goal was to see if someone could come on and say he misses X.Y.Z as I don't (and never do) like changing the SI official PA's, just feels wrong!!

Thanks for replying though

[Welshace]

I'm talking potential too...

He is jack of all trades in real life and in game....

He's got pace, but not the fastest..

he has strength, but not the strongest..

he has tricks.. but not a trick pony..

he has a good pass on him.. but not the best...

he gets forward.. not always the best time to do it

he gets back... not always the best timing

I'm not sure what you aren't really getting... he has plenty in his repertoire, but doesn't excel to world class standards or shown glimpses of it for me yet.

he works really hard as you'd expect in his first season in the prem.

For me, he could go either way.. time will tell, as he is in game right now, he's a wonderkid and can progress to champs league level and he can progress to an England regular when trained right... that is perfectly right imo.