Official January Transfer Update 13.3 Feedback Thread

[BiggusD]

No, it is in no way a bug. If you are going to spout opinions as facts, at least understand what a bug is. It could well be working as intended, it could be poorly defined. It is not a bug.

Tiers of expectations as I interpret it:

Title must be won: Title winners

Title should be won, but more flexible: Challenge

Decent shot at title, but in no way certain: Champions League through league position

Outsiders: Europe through league

etc, etc.

Fair enough, you may have a different interpretation, but please don't express what is simply your opinion as fact, one of the basics of intelligent debate. According to wikipedia (I know, I know ) a challenge is 'a general term referring to things that are imbued with a sense of difficulty and victory'. Which clearly equates winning as being a defining characteristic of a challenge. Look at real life, the media tell us Arsenal haven't challenged for the title for eight years, despite being in the running for the title going into the final month in at least three of the seasons since they last won it, obviously putting actually winning as a factor in challenging.

I do see where you are coming from, simply disagree. Anyway, since when did reason and logic have a place in the boardroom?

Really funny that you're imbuing yourself with the power of reason and logic with an opinion that is absolutely tosh. If the feature worked as intended it would say "we're disappointed that you failed to win the league, but pleased that we came so close."... or something along those lines. Now it said that he didn't challenge for the title, which is wrong. That's a bug. And a fact.

[johnhughthom]

Please show me where the board said he didn't challenge for the title.

[BiggusD]

Please show me where the board said he didn't challenge for the title.

That's what "disappointed that you only managed to qualify for Champions League" means. That's the next-highest option he could choose from at the start of the season, so that's what he achieved, meaning he did not, as the board "saw" it, challenge for the title. Hence the 40% confidence, which is in the Inscure region.

There is no programming in there that makes the board interpret anything other than that, so you're reading real life board logic into a very very simple line of code. It is not there. This is the board-equivalent of fishing up the weirdest keeper blooper from 1997 on youtube to argue that a ridiculous gk player choice in FM 2013 has happened in real life and is therefore intended as a rare, but realistic event. But here's how this goes in FM (more or less):

If less than [say] 6 points behind *league place 1**round 38*; title challenge = 1; news item 1337.

If more than 7 points behind *league place 1** round 38*; title challenge = 0; news item 1338.

There is no more to it than this.

Maybe the IF-line of code did not include goal difference separating the two title challengers? I don't know, but what is certain is that the news item and competition confidence shows a failure to challenge for the title and not as you say that the board magically was programmed to be -very- displeased precisely because he did challenge for the title and lost. Challenge for the title means that the board is NOT displeased if you challenge for the title. It is as simple as that. That (along with an algorithm for deciding how much money you get) is all that feature does.

[johnhughthom]

I really don't give a toss what the underlying program logic is, so far as I'm concerned there is no issue in what the board are saying. You feel differently, and I can understand why, but stop telling me how to interpret the game.

[BiggusD]

I really don't give a toss what the underlying program logic is, so far as I'm concerned there is no issue in what the board are saying. You feel differently, and I can understand why, but stop telling me how to interpret the game.

If you feel that the dictionary definition of "challenge" is more important than what the game actually does with the feature the word is used in, then be my guest. I am not out to take your happiness from you, just to show you that the game produced the wrong board confidence line and percentage given the input. Aka a bug.

[johnhughthom]

If you feel that the dictionary definition of "challenge" is more important than what the game actually does with the feature the word is used in, then be my guest. I am not out to take your happiness from you, just to show you that the game produced the wrong board confidence line and percentage given the input. Aka a bug.

Sorry, I hadn't realised you were an SI developer.

[Phero]

Guess he didn't he didn't realize you were one, fanboy. These people and their pathetic excuses for SI. Disgusting.

[johnhughthom]

I have criticised SI a lot over the years, just because I find something realistic, no matter how it came about, I'm a fanboy? I'm not trying to say anything is definitely working as intended, or realistic, I'm simply putting forward another point of view. Apologies if that upsets you.

And BiggusD, you are in no way taking away my enjoyment of the game, I quite enjoyed our little debate. Still think you are mixing up facts and opinions though.

[Phero]

Didn't realize you were an SI developer.

[johnhughthom]

[h=2]This message is hidden because Phero is on your ignore list.[/h]

I'm sure I've missed out on a profound truth that could change my life, but I think I'll survive.

Jog on and troll someone else.

[FrazT]

Agree to disagree guys and lets move on.

[PTom88]

As the original poster of the 'board expectations issue' I just want to had something because I agree with BiggusD there's a coding issue there and I believe this piece of information is relevant to the overall discussion:

In the image I've uploaded you can also see the board expectations regarding the FA Cup...

They expected me to reach the final, which I did...but unfortunately lost it against Tottenham!

But look at their approval!!!

They are happy with it...because that's exactly what they expected of me!

In the EPL I did the same, exactly what they expected, but got a much lower approval. How can that be?

[hursty2]

Some quick feedback on the ME from me:

- Players (corner taker) leaving the ball to go out for a throw in after a corner has been headed clear, instead of, quite easily controlling the ball and whipping another cross in asap.

- Players trying to play the ball off a man, at least in real life when you try and do this it's either alright i'll try cross this in but if not I'll get a corner. In the ME players kick it directly out of play within 2 yards.

- Tackling in the 3d is weird, most successful tackles are slide tackles and there are very rarely any standing tackles present. This results in a tackle being won but the ball just being blasted away with no control. Slide tackles shouldn't happen from a stationary position when the players are within touching distance.

- Slide tackles resulting in the ball going off in an unusual direction. i.e. When a player is running down the line and a tackle comes from across, the ball somehow cannons off 20 yards out for a corner. No controlled tackle from the tackler nor a natural ball direction.

- The amount of cleared headers off the line when a keeper should collect the ball easily.

- The way in which those headers are cleared, defenders sprinting towards the goal-line then somehow clearing the ball 30 yards away with the back of their heads.

- The customary boot it out of play from the off, not even towards the corner but straight out for a goal kick.

[R.P. McMurphy]

There was a plan to release small patch. It should fix regen issue and some other bugs. Is that plan still alive?

[szasinka]

There was a plan to release small patch. It should fix regen issue and some other bugs. Is that plan still alive?

I am also would like to know if this plan still exist for FM13. Without any timeline the confirmation would be nice from SI.

[R.P. McMurphy]

So what is SI's strategy here?

Wait couple weeks more and finally say it is too late for FM13 now?

[Keyzer Soze]

New patch for FM13? I was under the impression that the fixes in the regens issues will only see the daylight in FM14.

[R.P. McMurphy]

New patch for FM13? I was under the impression that the fixes in the regens issues will only see the daylight in FM14.

"We are working on a small update that fixes a few different niggles but like has been said already, we don't know any solid time table for that yet."

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/348751-No-Youth-Intake?p=8621017&viewfull=1#post8621017

[Keyzer Soze]

Thks RP.

I didn't notice that post! Good news then!

[scott MUFC]

dominate a game, then concede to a pointless passback, which the keeper has a rating drop for dispite it not being his fault.

get lead again, concede to a wondergoal, am I playing Football manager or random result manager?

and Youth Intake for me is fine, a few countries getting some good ones, signed a right and left back from Croatia, a USA defender and a chinese Midfielder for United all 4-5 stars

hopefully the update does something about the ammount of goals from Indirect free kicks, and Assistant training settings, its the same training all season bar 1 preseason game.

[Neil Brock]

We have now released an update to Football Manager 2013, 13.3.3, details in regards to this including the changelist can be found here - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/348533-January-Transfer-Update-13.3-RELEASED!

Thanks.

[7zige]

any database changes on players?

[Neil Brock]

It's all in the changelist.

[johnhughthom]

It's all in the changelist.

Changes including but not limited to:

[Keyzer Soze]

The newgens changes are save game compatible?

[Stuart Warren]

Yes sir.

[Keyzer Soze]

Yes sir.

Great!

[ChelseaSince86]

When starting second half or issuing a touchline shout, or making a sub during a game, the "Making Tactical Changes" bar seems to take a little longer to make the changes I ordered. (have made neil brock aware) Just wondering if 13.3.3 may have fixed this?

[Neil Brock]

When starting second half or issuing a touchline shout, or making a sub during a game, the "Making Tactical Changes" bar seems to take a little longer to make the changes I ordered. (have made neil brock aware) Just wondering if 13.3.3 may have fixed this?

There isn't a specific fix contained within, but something definitely worth checking to see if it's improved.

[Neil Brock]

Touché sir!

[Herbert Fandel]

will the fix overwrite things like custom turf textures?

[Harima83]

There are still too few regens in cumstom leagues and now some clubs have regens of wrong nationality (I tested just japanese league and some clubs have korean/hong kong regens and no one jap).

[Guest]

It doesn't look like the custom league newgen issue was fixed on this update as there is no mention of it in the changelist, assuming there is a coding problem, which there is some evidence to support, my guess is that it's a little more complicated than fixing user controlled teams only getting small youth intakes & would take a lot more testing to ensure that it doesn't cause any major issues that could result in saves becoming unplayable or even crashing.

[daylight]

"- Corrected issue when going to tactics screen during match, then exiting tactics screen highlight, will jump to end of current highlight"

Well played SI

[Harima83]

It doesn't look like the custom league newgen issue was fixed on this update as there is no mention of it in the changelist, assuming there is a coding problem, which there is some evidence to support, my guess is that it's a little more complicated than fixing user controlled teams only getting small youth intakes & would take a lot more testing to ensure that it doesn't cause any major issues that could result in saves becoming unplayable or even crashing.

The new build includes, but is not limited to, the changes below:

I just hoped.

[Leon_fogo]

Here in my fm 13 the goals only come from crosses, played by the bottom line, and I see the goals of the other teams is the same thing, really saw very few headed goal from inside the box or outside. You do not see shots exchanged passes worked with, it had to be better adjusted. Everybody talks about it, here in the forums Brazil: /

Well that could improve it in this match engine still fm 2013! You'd be perfect!

[Argie86x]

Im the only one who is having constant crash dumps with the new patch?

[Canaries Fan]

Seeing a lot more interest in my players, which is great from a realism standpoint, however the bids I'm receiving for them aren't that reasonable. I'm getting repeated free transfer offers for individuals valued at about 10k and not transfer listed. I'm playing as Stirling Albion in Scottish D3, if that information is relevant.

So yes, the interest is great, the only problem is a refusal to increase bid amount when informed the current offer is deemed insufficient.

I'd also like to see a fix for the general odd ME behavior when the ball is in the air (players love heading behind needlessly when not under any pressure), but I suppose that will have to wait until next year.

[DeeeeeJ]

Anyway to confirm the update has worked?

Usually a bit of information on a reference number or a 13.3.3. and then a game database number or something....

Also, can I have a reminder where that is

[jorge.parola]

Someone said no ME changes because none in the list but apparently the friction coefficent of the turf has been increased? Thumbs up for that.

[DeeeeeJ]

Anyway to confirm the update has worked?

Usually a bit of information on a reference number or a 13.3.3. and then a game database number or something....

Also, can I have a reminder where that is

*Edit\

Sorry for the double post

[Liquid Cool]

With no more ME updates coming and after playing FM13 for a good few seasons, I thought I'd post some constructive feedback.

This is by no means a complete list - and you may disagree entirely with my conclusions - but I wanted to raise some of the more noticeable issues I've seen in the hope that they'll actually get resolved for FM14

The match engine is the biggest problem.

(snip)

Great observations. I think the new match engine is great in many ways, but it's still quite rough and still very much a work in progress. It's probably being worked on constantly - but what I don't really get is why SI won't keep updating FM13 with the latest match engine until FM14 is closer to release, and actually get a lot of good feedback, which could make the ME for FM14 even better.

I know that it would probably require more work to make a smooth transtition like that for the FM13 match engine to the FM14 one, instead of having a hard date, where all future work will be for FM14. But it would be the ultimate form of customer service and a REALLY big show of gratitude and understanding towards the fans. Plus the feedback would probably make the ME even better than it otherwise would be.

[stevereay]

Great observations. I think the new match engine is great in many ways, but it's still quite rough and still very much a work in progress. It's probably being worked on constantly - but what I don't really get is why SI won't keep updating FM13 with the latest match engine until FM14 is closer to release, and actually get a lot of good feedback, which could make the ME for FM14 even better.

I know that it would probably require more work to make a smooth transtition like that for the FM13 match engine to the FM14 one, instead of having a hard date, where all future work will be for FM14. But it would be the ultimate form of customer service and a REALLY big show of gratitude and understanding towards the fans. Plus the feedback would probably make the ME even better than it otherwise would be.

That sounds like a great idea in practice. But since we use steam and no roll back on patches is possible just imagine a bad ME update is released the number of people who would be on here complaining. I would be one of them. FM13 has been a let down although the latest patch has restore some of my faith in the game and I feel in its current state it is very playable again.

One way to try to avoid the mass engine issues in FM14 that we have seen in FM13 would be to allow us access to the updates but without disturbing FM13. We have in a way been defacto beta testers for this engine so one SI method could be for everyone who has bought FM13 release another version of the game lets call it FM13.5. Same game as we have now but consistantly upgraded with ME updates where we can test if we want. this could provide feedback to SI.

Of course SI may think something like this will reduce FM14 sales. But why not have a lock date on it like i believe we had in the beta this year. FM13.5 will become unplayable at the demo release of FM14 therefore not affecting FM14 sales.

[Guest]

That's a very good idea, it will act like an extended public beta but with it restricted to only having the updated match engine code so there is no issue with new features becoming public knowledge until the full FM14 versions is released.

The only problem for SI would be the risk of hyperbolic posting about this or that being broken, there would be a responsibility for the user to recognise that what they are playing is a test engine & to post about bugs in the correct manner. I wouldn't be entirely confident that the wider user base could be that disciplined but that isn't an insurmountable problem.

[Crb1986]

any improvement in what concerns the injuries?

[Neil Brock]

any improvement in what concerns the injuries?

There is no injury problem in-game - some users are pushing their players too hard with training or are just having bad luck. We've looked at this a great number of times and the frequency of injuries in-game is NOT a bug. Thanks.

[Liquid Cool]

That sounds like a great idea in practice. But since we use steam and no roll back on patches is possible just imagine a bad ME update is released the number of people who would be on here complaining. I would be one of them. FM13 has been a let down although the latest patch has restore some of my faith in the game and I feel in its current state it is very playable again.

One way to try to avoid the mass engine issues in FM14 that we have seen in FM13 would be to allow us access to the updates but without disturbing FM13. We have in a way been defacto beta testers for this engine so one SI method could be for everyone who has bought FM13 release another version of the game lets call it FM13.5. Same game as we have now but consistantly upgraded with ME updates where we can test if we want. this could provide feedback to SI.

Of course SI may think something like this will reduce FM14 sales. But why not have a lock date on it like i believe we had in the beta this year. FM13.5 will become unplayable at the demo release of FM14 therefore not affecting FM14 sales.

That's a very good idea, it will act like an extended public beta but with it restricted to only having the updated match engine code so there is no issue with new features becoming public knowledge until the full FM14 versions is released.

The only problem for SI would be the risk of hyperbolic posting about this or that being broken, there would be a responsibility for the user to recognise that what they are playing is a test engine & to post about bugs in the correct manner. I wouldn't be entirely confident that the wider user base could be that disciplined but that isn't an insurmountable problem.

Well, I'm not really talking about releasing every unfinished and unstable test version of the future ME, but rather what they've done with the latest one and release the more "finished" and stable milestone versions. It would be just as if the ME for FM13 would officially be updated for a few more months. It's being worked on, so why not just release it?

But I totally get why they don't do it. Both from a business perspective and from a pragmatic perspective.

From the pragmatic perspective it would be more work to maintain two separate match engines or to switch to working on the FM14 engine late in the production cycle. There might be some new parameters that affect the ME that are new and unique to FM14 that would further complicate things (all the different modules in the game work together in different ways, so the exact same ME might act differently in FM14 compared to FM13, because some of the modules have been rewritten and new features are added, etc).

From a business perspective, they probably don't want to give such a big part of the new game away for free - but like I mentioned earlier, it would be the ultimate form of saying thanks to the fans. Most of us are fircely loyal and would probably buy FM14 anyway - and showing us goodwill like that would just strenghten the loyalty.

[Crb1986]

Thanks!

[balldoktor81]

my barca team had one more player on the pitch for 75 minutes and in the end the possesions game was 52:48 in favour of barca... we played psg in chl quarterfinals and lost on away goals (5:3/4:2). i have no problem with the score, but 52% : 48%..... :lol: i hope they come up with something else for fm 14!!! and don't tell me it's my tactics! there's a lot to be desired, so we finally get a polished and finished product. and i know i should raise that problem on the "bugs-forum", which i will do. but oh man 52:48...

[johnhughthom]

No, you should not raise it in the bugs forum. Unless you want to be laughed at.