Arsenal is way too powerful

[Äktsjon Männ]

Explain why Christiano Ronaldo is mediocre and Walcott is world class then... I'd suggest its because SI left the same BUG in the game from last time because they couldnt be bothered (and wont do so for I'm guessing 5+ years if ever) to recode the module.

Arsenals team is overated, I'm assuming your a Arsenal fan because noone whos impartial would ignore the blatantly obvious.

Ronaldo has the highest Current Ability of all players in the database. SI don't do the research themselves you know, if Le Arse are overrated, which I'm sure in some important areas they must be, it's not the fault of SI.

[earmack]

Okay, let me explain it again. Ronaldo can use either foot which eats up a ton of CA which means that his attributes seem lower. Walcott can only use one foot which allows more CA for his other attributes. In the match engine, Walcott will only benefit from his stats if he moves the ball to his stronger foot while Ronaldo can use either one effectively. So I have no clue as to why you'd call Ronaldo mediocre.

My argument is based on the database. Arsenal's stats/CA are the lowest out of the big 4. You're just whinging and offering no analysis as to why Arsenal is so successful.

Ronaldo is medicore in the ME and Walcott is world class, this is my experience with the game since 2008.

Thank you for ignoring every point I make and then continuing to talk about CA as the ONLY important factor in game.

[earmack]

Ronaldo has the highest Current Ability of all players in the database. SI don't do the research themselves you know' date=' if Le Arse are overrated, which I'm sure in some important areas they must be, it's not the fault of SI.[/quote']

yes and despite this hes worse than Elano (not just in terms of stats but in terms of PERFORMANCES IN THE ME). The way Stats are derived is crap, especially when it comes to two footed players. Will noone listen to me saying 'CA isn't the only important thing'?

[Äktsjon Männ]

Ronaldo is medicore in the ME and Walcott is world class, this is my experience with the game since 2008.

Thank you for ignoring every point I make and then continuing to talk about CA as the ONLY important factor in game.

In my game, season 2011/2012 - Walcott 16(3) appearances, 3 gls, 1 ast, avg rat 6.78. Ronaldo 21 appearances, 6 gls, 5 ast, avg rat 7.43.

[SiN8]

yes and despite this hes worse than Elano (not just in terms of stats but in terms of PERFORMANCES IN THE ME). The way Stats are derived is crap, especially when it comes to two footed players. Will noone listen to me saying 'CA isn't the only important thing'?

Seriously, stop complaining about the CA system because you don't know how to use Ronaldo correctly. In my game, ManU (AI) has great results from Ronaldo. 38 games - 7.39 rating.

[Avelives]

Seriously, stop complaining about the CA system because you don't know how to use Ronaldo correctly. In my game, ManU (AI) has great results from Ronaldo. 38 games - 7.39 rating.

And yet in my game Walcott not only outheadered Richard Dunne but proceeded to assist their second goal, he is Arsenals top assister. Where as Man Utd (who i just beat 3-1) Rondaldo had one decent run past Zabaleta (who with respect to the man isnt exactly the worlds best full back) and other than that was easily neutralised by simple man marking and closing down instructions.

AGAIN SiN8 im not here to figure out WHY they are overpowered in the game, thats SIs job frankly and im sure theyll do a much better job of it than you or i could.

Fact is as Skorp said its 'A KNOWN ISSUE' and is being looked into, admit you were wrong and move on.

As for you aimless banging on about CA this and CA that, CA does not win games, CA does not score goals, CA does not improve IN MATCH performances. CA is of course a factor in a players development over many years but its only ONE factor of many, and it has little bearing on the first 2 or 3 seasons and almost none for the AI.

[SiN8]

And yet in my game Walcott not only outheadered Richard Dunne but proceeded to assist their second goal, he is Arsenals top assister. Where as Man Utd (who i just beat 3-1) Rondaldo had one decent run past Zabaleta (who with respect to the man isnt exactly the worlds best full back) and other than that was easily neutralised by simple man marking and closing down instructions.

AGAIN SiN8 im not here to figure out WHY they are overpowered in the game, thats SIs job frankly and im sure theyll do a much better job of it than you or i could.

Fact is as Skorp said its 'A KNOWN ISSUE' and is being looked into, admit you were wrong and move on.

As for you aimless banging on about CA this and CA that, CA does not win games, CA does not score goals, CA does not improve IN MATCH performances. CA is of course a factor in a players development over many years but its only ONE factor of many, and it has little bearing on the first 2 or 3 seasons and almost none for the AI.

You gotta be kidding me. That's your proof why Walcott is better than Ronaldo??

As for you second point, Arsenal being successful has nothing to do with them being "over-rated". While CA does not affect match engine, researchers have to assign attributes to fit a certain CA. So it becomes a focal point on how good a player can get. Ronaldo used his CA for his two-footedness while Walcott used a lot for his pace. So unless you are suggesting the Arsenal researcher knew the match engine well enough to manipulate the attribute distribution, the CA value should be used as the measuring stick.

I've also listed my reasons why I think Arsenal is successful. These reasons do not just apply to solely Arsenal. I'm sure there are other teams that also benefit, but do not get the same publicity. So maybe you should take a look at the database before blindly crying out that Arsenal is over-rated.

[Avelives]

You gotta be kidding me. That's your proof why Walcott is better than Ronaldo??

As for you second point, Arsenal being successful has nothing to do with them being "over-rated". While CA does not affect match engine, researchers have to assign attributes to fit a certain CA. So it becomes a focal point on how good a player can get. Ronaldo used his CA for his two-footedness while Walcott used a lot for his pace. So unless you are suggesting the Arsenal researcher knew the match engine well enough to manipulate the attribute distribution, the CA value should be used as the measuring stick.

I've also listed my reasons why I think Arsenal is successful. These reasons do not just apply to solely Arsenal. I'm sure there are other teams that also benefit, but do not get the same publicity. So maybe you should take a look at the database before blindly crying out that Arsenal is over-rated.

Oh lord you dont listen do you, CA is irrelavent, it really really is.

When Walcott is outjumping Richard Dunne and running rings round my defenders it has nothing to do with his CA stat, equally Ronaldo underperforming for Man Utd (in my save at least) has nothing to do with his CA rating.

And FYI i never ever said that was my PROOF for anything, you and someone else countered a claim that Walcott was better than Ronaldo by posting isolated instances in your saves where Ronaldo was performing at a better average rating than Walcott, i was merely doing the same thing to prove that isnt always the case. And average ratings doesnt tell the whole story anyway its a general yard stick of performance for sure, but its only general, he could have played 20 games 8 of them at 8 ratings 8 at 6/7 ratings and 4 at 6.5 or below.

Average ratings are (IMO) fubared anyway atm, my top goalscorer, whose the ELP top goalscorer rates at an average rating of 6.9 where as my mediocre right back who has 1 solitary assist to his name after 20 games rates at 7.2.

Anyway this is all going off topic, point is Skorp has confirmed that arsenal being overrated (or overpowered or overhelped by the ME whatever term you prefer) is a known issue and is being looked at.

LIKE I SAID the reasons we all believe that its happening are kinda moot to be honest, as we are not all privvy to the millions of lines of code which run the game and cannot possibly know why that is, i have my theory you have yours we are both probably wrong, but the fact remains they ARE overpowered/overated and dominate to many peoples games FACT

[phnompenhandy]

Originally Posted by skorp ... FYI though, this is a known issue and is under review.

Hi skorp, do you have any idea why Arsenal is highly successful? It can't be the CA or attributes since they are already pretty low to begin with. I'm thinking it's due to 3 reasons:

1. Match engine prefers Arsenal's style of play

2. Youth players reach their potential too fast thus making Arsenal a powerhouse in the 2nd year and beyond

3. With the new transfer module, sugar daddy teams aren't spending ridiculous amounts to remain competitive.

I interpret skorp's highly significant response as, "No, we don't know the reason, so we need to look into it carefully." SI needs to ensure that any alteration doesn't leave Arsenal too weak, and doesn't have unseen knock-on effects. I'm sure the programming to correct this is very tricky, which is why we need to be patient and allow them as long as it takes to get things absolutely right before hankering after the release of the patch.

[SiN8]

Back in FM06, I remember that heading/jumping was way too effective in the match engine. Of course, everyone cried that Alan Smith/John Carew/any other tall striker was over-rated. The eventual fix modified the ME and left the stats untouched. This will probably be the same. Lowering Arsenal's stats would be unfair because they are not the root cause.

[Kawee]

You guys have got to get your head around to the REAL problem. The problem is not with Arsenal's database. You guys are saying it as if the Arsenal Researcher make the Arsenal players better than they are. It's the GAME.

The ME favors Arsenal style, which is why they do better than they should. If the exact same players were to play a different style they wouldn't be as successful.

Youngsters becoming world-class is also not Arsenal's database fault. Ramsey is given -9 PA, which is realistic. YES! Is it Arsenal's database fault that he reaches that potential too quickly in-game? NO! It's the game's fault. The database can only set how good a player is at the beginning and how good they can be. It's not like the ARsenal researcher can design Ramsey in such a way that he'll reach his potential within 6 months or so.

Both me and Sin8 are not saying that we don't recognize that Arsenal is dominating too much in many people's games. Of course we do! It's blatantly obvious. All we're trying to say is the problem doesn't lie with Arsenal. It lies with the game, especially the aspect of youth development and ME favoring a style of play. Arsenal the AI just happen to benefit from it, unintentionally.

The only conspiracy one could possibly think of is that the SI team know how to exploit ME and so adjust Arsenal's style to do as such. But that is just ridiculous isn't it?

[Avelives]

I interpret skorp's highly significant response as, "No, we don't know the reason, so we need to look into it carefully." SI needs to ensure that any alteration doesn't leave Arsenal too weak, and doesn't have unseen knock-on effects. I'm sure the programming to correct this is very tricky, which is why we need to be patient and allow them as long as it takes to get things absolutely right before hankering after the release of the patch.

And did i not just say that exact thing.

I clearly wrote that neither you or I know the real reason why they are dominating so many peoples games and that only SI can figure that out and correct it, and nowhere did i state i was screaming for a patch, im willing to wait now i know they are aware of it.

The only point i made is that people suggest its purely a matter or the ME and potential growth, where as i contest that cause in my case Arsenal are dominating the first season (where player growth hasnt really happened yet) with players who are in real life just fringe players for arsenal. Ironically since Eduardo cam back from injury in my game and they dropped Bendtner to the bench they have started losing.

Its people like Bendtner, Walcott, Song and a few others who IMO perform (nothing about CA or stats) far to well in the game considering IRL they are just promising youngsters but in FM09 they play like world class pros. WHY thats happening is up to SI to figure out.

[phnompenhandy]

Er, yes mate; I'm supporting you. Further up the page I wrote this:

"I'm with Avelives - I won't speculate, but the fact is that many of us have noticed the phenomenon and it does seem unrealistic and imbalanced."

[Avelives]

Er, yes mate; I'm supporting you. Further up the page I wrote this:

"I'm with Avelives - I won't speculate, but the fact is that many of us have noticed the phenomenon and it does seem unrealistic and imbalanced."

Oh my apologies in that case

I got carried away arguing the toss with SiN8 who seems intent on arguing irrelavent points.

Consider me chastised

[Shiraz]

Three seasons in and Arsenal have won three premier league titles by more than 6 points each time, they definitely are too strong.

[greco]

Did you read on? I apologised for using the wrong information when replying to that. I responded to that because I mistakenly thought that the user who posted the screenshot was complaining that the games/goals were unrealistic, so I (incorrectly) queried this.

FYI though, this is a known issue and is under review.

nope i didnt read on, but i still maintain , that there is and was, a ton of other posts, which clearly deserved an answer, much more so then the sreenshot ;-)

well that is excellent, thats all i needed to know, thats its being looked at..

[greco]

You guys have got to get your head around to the REAL problem. The problem is not with Arsenal's database. You guys are saying it as if the Arsenal Researcher make the Arsenal players better than they are. It's the GAME.

The ME favors Arsenal style, which is why they do better than they should. If the exact same players were to play a different style they wouldn't be as successful.

Youngsters becoming world-class is also not Arsenal's database fault. Ramsey is given -9 PA, which is realistic. YES! Is it Arsenal's database fault that he reaches that potential too quickly in-game? NO! It's the game's fault. The database can only set how good a player is at the beginning and how good they can be. It's not like the ARsenal researcher can design Ramsey in such a way that he'll reach his potential within 6 months or so.

Both me and Sin8 are not saying that we don't recognize that Arsenal is dominating too much in many people's games. Of course we do! It's blatantly obvious. All we're trying to say is the problem doesn't lie with Arsenal. It lies with the game, especially the aspect of youth development and ME favoring a style of play. Arsenal the AI just happen to benefit from it, unintentionally.

The only conspiracy one could possibly think of is that the SI team know how to exploit ME and so adjust Arsenal's style to do as such. But that is just ridiculous isn't it?

whether its the me, the ca or the hidden stats.. the problem is, that there is a problem.. so far we dont know, what the issues are, you are speculating, as much as the next guy.. and who is right, is actually a pointless discussion mate, as we agree upon ,that they are too good, in too many games, for it to be a coincidence.

i really dont care whether its the me, ca, pa or whatever, i just want an even playing field..

[PGB_SPURS_FM09]

Its pretty ridiculous. Its now gone 18 games and Arsenal have conceded 4 goals and scored about a gazillion! Bendter has scored 6 in 1 game and 4 in the next. They seem to smash so many opponents consistently. Yes i agree they have the ability to smash a team... But not EVERY game!

MAybe its Arsenal being overated, but it might not be such a problem if Man Utd and Chelsea didn't do so poorly! They are both 4th and 5th! With Blackburn and Everton up there in place of them! Quite annoying! I beat them both(MU & Ch) with Spurs, 2-0 and 3-0 yet got smashed by Arsenal 5-2 using the same tactic.(specifically for playing against top 4) along with a draw VS Liverpool!

[Younging]

Arsenal won their 4 consecutive title, I don't mind them winning but every time the gap is about 9 points or more compared to any other team, they are untouchable.

[Äktsjon Männ]

The ME favors Arsenal style, which is why they do better than they should. If the exact same players were to play a different style they wouldn't be as successful.

There is no unique Arsenal style in FM. AI Arsene Wenger has the same tools at hand every other AI manager does. The same set tactics, the same tweaks. If you doubt it you can run a test replacing Wenger at the start of the game with another manager. I guarantee you the results will not differ much.

[Eblees]

Arsenal just won the league .... again.

Past Premiership winners:

Yes, Arsenal won it 6 times in a row.

[aiston]

This might please everyone alot where Arsenal is:

[Avelives]

@ Eblees: thats ridiculous 6 times!! and their lead over the others is silly

@ Aiston: LOL what the hell went wrong in your game the big four are nowhere to be seen and Aston Villa and Newcastle are top two ?!? Strange alternate dimension lmao

[Eblees]

Mind you Pat Rice won the last 3 titles for them

[Thrower]

I have to agree aresnal are brilliant on mine and i am not saying change it its unfair i am just stunned i finished the season with 90 points and arsenal finished top with 92 points i was so annoyed as you can imagine.

The key fixture that i think determined this was when i was leading arsenal 3-1 with 9 mins to go i had a full team no injuries all players with a 7.5+ rating and suddenly for no reason i could see they changed to a 4-5-1 defensive formation and they won the game 4-3 with there 4th goal coming in the 96th minute of the apprently +3 minutes the 4th official said, but although i was very annoyed i carried on and have to congratulate them, if i didn't mess up a few other games due to bad subs choice i would of won.

Also i made the mistake of selling hargreaves to them for £40M but the 1st season he was awful for me and £40M i couldn't refuse, turns out he was arsenals key player so again a decision i made potential caused me to lose.

but 90 points and finishing 2nd is devestating just hope my tactics of bringing my youth players through earlier has paid of for future seasons.

[Dirky Diggler]

Arsenal are overratted, IRL individually they only have one world class player (Fabregas) and a few very good players, its the style of football that wenger instills into them and the coaching methods he uses makes them as good as they are IRL. Menatlly they are fragile at best, physically they are no better than ok, tecnically they are good, but no better technically than Man Utd, Tottenham, Chelsea. Even their youth players are no better than Man Utds, Wilshire ramsey and Vela look quality, but the others are nothing special. they will be Bentleys at best, steve sidwells at worst, hardly top 4 quality. They are not likely to win the premiership now for a fair few years, Id probably put 6 months wages on them not winning the league in the next 5 years. Yet on FM they smoke the league time and time again. Their youth is overratted as are most of their first team. with the exeption of fabregas none of their team would get into Chelseas or Man us team, collectivly they struggle against physical teams. as is They are currently the 4th best team in the premiership, and getting worse, not better. Their style of passing is among the best in the world, but their football is nowhere near, Football is about every blend of football from physical mental passing adapting to play stopping other teams playing etc attractive passing is only a very small part of the overall picture of the beautiful game of football

[Avelives]

I think thats overly harsh tbh dirky diggler, i would say they are a talented bunch but ive always been of the opinion that if they lost Wenger they'd be a top 6 or 7 team rather than a top 4, he gets them playing above their standard.

I have no problem with Adebayor or Van Persie or their DCs or Fabregas in FM09, they are top players irl, but just look at Sagnas stats or Clichy, sure they are good players but their stats in fm09 are awesome. Anyway point is becoming laboured now really SI know its an issue, just have to wait and see what they do about it

[BoroBertill]

Arsenal just beat Chelsea 7-2 at home in the first season in my game!!!!

[PaulC]

Its difficult in the sense that this Arsenal team, and to an extent Wenger is an enigma. Here you have the team that play exhilirating football on their day yet inexplicably choose to have off days in games they should win.

Then you have this amazing manager who has won doubles, spotted countless players others havent yet the bulk of his success was built on a defence inherited from his predecessor.

Its a hard one for us to call. My gut feeling its its database ( PA as much as CA ) but at the same time it could be match, or a bit of both.

[Dirky Diggler]

Its difficult in the sense that this Arsenal team, and to an extent Wenger is an enigma. Here you have the team that play exhilirating football on their day yet inexplicably choose to have off days in games they should win.

Then you have this amazing manager who has won doubles, spotted countless players others havent yet the bulk of his success was built on a defence inherited from his predecessor.

Its a hard one for us to call. My gut feeling its its database ( PA as much as CA ) but at the same time it could be match, or a bit of both.

I disagree, I dont think they have off days at all, i think they struggle to play against certain types of football, Wenger manages to get players that are merely good players playing way above themselves, If they were to leave Arsenal they would go back to being merely good. Senderos, Henry, Petit, Viera, cole, ljundberg, reyes, edu, pires, Wiltord the list goes on. are all examples of good players wenger has made look very good and in Henry Petit and Vieras case world class, when they left they never performed like they did at Arsenal. The guy cracked it when he said if Wenger were to leave they would do well to finsih 6th or 7th. I dont think Im being harsh at all, I think Im being realistic, when I see Arsenal play their pretty passing at times I think its fantastic to watch, but you can see where they come up short, when they are closed down quickly, tackled firmly put under pressure they have no answer to it. Yet on FM, they nail you and win everything. They are miles away from the team that went unbeaten for a season, and even they wernt THAT good.

[Glenn Wakeford]

I think thats overly harsh tbh dirky diggler, i would say they are a talented bunch but ive always been of the opinion that if they lost Wenger they'd be a top 6 or 7 team rather than a top 4, he gets them playing above their standard.

I have no problem with Adebayor or Van Persie or their DCs or Fabregas in FM09, they are top players irl, but just look at Sagnas stats or Clichy, sure they are good players but their stats in fm09 are awesome. Anyway point is becoming laboured now really SI know its an issue, just have to wait and see what they do about it

Sagna and Clichy were voted the best Prem fullbacks of last season, IIRC.

[COOPER_NUFC]

Just beat them 4-3 at the emirates with the toon - pogrebynyak (or whatever) scored 2 get in!

[Dirky Diggler]

Sagna and Clichy were voted the best Prem fullbacks of last season, IIRC.

Sympathy vote I think. Sagna Is a good player, nothing more, Clichy I think has great potential and had an excellent season so fair play to him. I think its the same in all football, because it looks good people think they are fantastic, Results and productivity are more important than looking good. Arsenals results just dont show them to be as good as they are in FM.

[Glenn Wakeford]

So what you're saying is we should downgrade Clichy and Sagna's stats because you think they got a 'sympathy vote' last year? This of course is opposed by professionals, critics, and fans: they consider these players as being really rather good.

This is all subjective stuff, and if you think it's a problem you should bring it up in the Arsenal thread in the Data Issues forum. (IMO it's the centre backs that are overrated in the Arsenal defence, not the fullbacks.)

[woody2goody]

You have a terrible memory.

Anyway, I think the problem is down to short passing styles being too effective in FM. IRL, 9 times out of 10 the team playing with faster tempo will win as it's easier to play. However, in FM, short, slow football (what Arsenal play) is deadly. Now Arsenal win IRL because they are good at playing short-passing football, but they often draw because they just don't shoot often enough. The ME doesn't recognise this, and the players are more likely to shoot. Also, because of the slow tempo, shots aren't as rushed and chances are better. Result? Arsenal winning a lot.

That sounds like a good explanation to me

[Kawee]

Personally, I still don't think it's the database. Yeah, Sagna and Clichy are great, but they were both EPL full-backs of the year last year. And surely, the difference between Bosingwa/Cole and Sagna/Clichy is not so great that it can explain the difference.

Basically, what I'm trying to get to is the fact that the differences in the players cannot sufficiently explain why Arsenal is so much better than others in many people's saves, which is why I proposed that the problem lies with the game, namely the ME and the player's development.

[S.G.]

yeah, i'm in season 5 now and Arsenal are by far the most dominant team in the Premiership, although they have only won the Champion's League once since the start of the game

Man Utd seem to have flailed as soon as Ferguson retired and are now below Man City and Spurs in the pecking order, and seem to be downgrading their squad despite being very rich (i'm thinking the mess they're in may have something to do with Ferguson's successor Rijkaard having a measly 5 for his adaption stat?)

and Liverpool haven't looked like challenging for the title once, and are now even further below Man Utd and haven't qualified for the group stages of the Champion's League for 2 seasons in a row

i also noticed Real Madrid have won the Spanish League every season too

[earmack]

Its difficult in the sense that this Arsenal team, and to an extent Wenger is an enigma. Here you have the team that play exhilirating football on their day yet inexplicably choose to have off days in games they should win.

Then you have this amazing manager who has won doubles, spotted countless players others havent yet the bulk of his success was built on a defence inherited from his predecessor.

Its a hard one for us to call. My gut feeling its its database ( PA as much as CA ) but at the same time it could be match, or a bit of both.

This is a joke right? Many games they play awfully (but of course this is by choice....its not like its possible to shut them down by dropping deep and marking Fabregas out of the game) because they aren't a world class squad. They WERE a top team 4 years ago, now they are equivalent to Valencia or Fiorentina. Maybe you forgot that Newcastle are very poor as they always overachieve aswell. Maybe its time to think about redoing the stats for certain teams rather than upping them every year.......

edit: I don't understand the love the get, surely a team like Fiorentina who play a similar counter attacking style (or even PSV) should have this lovefest aswell. Its not like Arsenal have invented some new superior way to play, they play to their strengths (SPEED and quickness of thought), why not make Bolton world class as they play to their strengths of (HEIGHT and strength)..............

[Alekos]

In my game Arsenal won the first season the Premier League, they lost only once and won the Champions League..Second season they are on top of the table..But that don't really concern me..They have a very good manager and players..

[H Y P Z]

I have to agree, it's only half way thru the season in my game and they already have TWICE as many goals as the 2nd team in the Prem. Ridiculous.

[Dirky Diggler]

This is a joke right? Many games they play awfully (but of course this is by choice....its not like its possible to shut them down by dropping deep and marking Fabregas out of the game) because they aren't a world class squad. They WERE a top team 4 years ago, now they are equivalent to Valencia or Fiorentina. Maybe you forgot that Newcastle are very poor as they always overachieve aswell. Maybe its time to think about redoing the stats for certain teams rather than upping them every year.......

edit: I don't understand the love the get, surely a team like Fiorentina who play a similar counter attacking style (or even PSV) should have this lovefest aswell. Its not like Arsenal have invented some new superior way to play, they play to their strengths (SPEED and quickness of thought), why not make Bolton world class as they play to their strengths of (HEIGHT and strength)..............

Because its not pretty, even though its just as effective, people have a lovefest over things that look good rather than things that are productive and that work

[Thrower]

Well i am enjoying my save game and although i agree that aresnal are way to good i see it as a challange to beat them i came within 2 point last season and after 3 games in my 3rd i am 1 point ahead because they got a draw so its looking good already all i have to do is win all 38 games and they have no chance of beating me

Also i only give aresnal this current season IRL before they drop out of the top 4 they haven't won anything for like 3-4 years and i can't see them doing anything special, sure they play fantastci passing and attacking football but thats pretty pointless if they can't actual score how many time have they had a great build up before they mess up the important part of actual shooting.

I am slighty against aresnal i have to admit ever since they played real madrid in the champions league that time and they didn't have 1 english player on and real madrid had 4 english people in there spaud for the game, not being racist but a english team should have some english players.

[Dirky Diggler]

Well i am enjoying my save game and although i agree that aresnal are way to good i see it as a challange to beat them i came within 2 point last season and after 3 games in my 3rd i am 1 point ahead because they got a draw so its looking good already all i have to do is win all 38 games and they have no chance of beating me

Also i only give aresnal this current season IRL before they drop out of the top 4 they haven't won anything for like 3-4 years and i can't see them doing anything special, sure they play fantastci passing and attacking football but thats pretty pointless if they can't actual score how many time have they had a great build up before they mess up the important part of actual shooting.

I am slighty against aresnal i have to admit ever since they played real madrid in the champions league that time and they didn't have 1 english player on and real madrid had 4 english people in there spaud for the game, not being racist but a english team should have some english players.

4 English people?

Who? I can only think of Beckham and Owen

In fact in the last 5 years I can only think of Beckham Hargreaves Owen as Englishman playing abroad for a decent team, Before that there was Mcmanaman, but he was hardly good. In all fairness to Beckham, he's the only Englishman I can think of who has played for the best team in England the best team in Spain and about to play for the best Team in Italy, a few of the current Englishman would do well to follow his lead, Im not sure theres many good enough with the bottle to do it

[Avelives]

I seem to have turned the discussion into a Clichy Sagna fest, that wasnt my intention.

It isnt just their full backs, its alot of their players stats (in fact Sagna and Clichy are fine compared to Bendtner and Walcott who are demonicly good in FM09 yet they do tend to underperform IRL and aside from Walcott slightly flukey hatrick for england have not really received any real life plaudits)

Im with Dirky though Wenger gets decent players to play way above their standard cause hes a great manager, think of all the greats whove moved clubs away from Arsenal and flopped theres tons.

I dont think its CA or PA related i honestly dont, i think its a combination of many things, if it were just CA/PA why would they be so dominant so early on?

I my game they have a 5 point lead at the top of the table, not to bad you might think but the goals they score is monstrous.

Me Chelsea ManU and Liverpool have all scored around 45 goals let in around 25 (we are all 2nd to 5th respectively)

Arsenal have scored 60!! and let in 16

The gulf of difference is stupid, and bear in mind they had Adebayor and Eduardo both out on injuries, Bendtner has been playing 1st team most of the season.

[Ozzy38]

Before that there was Mcmanaman, but he was hardly good.

O_o

10101010

[PGB_SPURS_FM09]

What about Jonathan Woodgate! Paul Ince! Lineker etc!

shteve mclaren - a poor english manager abroad who sucks

I think Bendtner is definitely overated though.

[CaptainPlanet]

Its difficult in the sense that this Arsenal team, and to an extent Wenger is an enigma. Here you have the team that play exhilirating football on their day yet inexplicably choose to have off days in games they should win.

Then you have this amazing manager who has won doubles, spotted countless players others havent yet the bulk of his success was built on a defence inherited from his predecessor.

Its a hard one for us to call. My gut feeling its its database ( PA as much as CA ) but at the same time it could be match, or a bit of both.

Surely you just need to kill all of their consistency stats?

[Dirky Diggler]

What about Jonathan Woodgate! Paul Ince! Lineker etc!

shteve mclaren - a poor english manager abroad who sucks

I think Bendtner is definitely overated though.

Missed woodagte But to be fair he only played a handful of games due to being injured for 90% of the time he was there, linekar keegan souness gazza hughes etc were all slightly before 5 and even 10 years ago

[Dirky Diggler]

Surely you just need to kill all of their consistency stats?

I dont tihnk its consistency though, Its a whole club thing, not having a plan b so when they come up against certain styles they struggle, if they played west ham every week they would win every week, if they played stoke, bolton, hull, fulham every week they would struggle

[digsy11]

When it comes down to it when did Arsenal actually win anything? 4 or 5 years ago and that was the FA Cup! so why they are sooooooooooo good in the game is inconsistant with reality.Sure they can win leagues and european cups in the game but not to the extent they are doing.

Another point I'd like to make is Chelsea seem underrated (at least on my game) I'm in 2016 and all they've won is the FA Cup in 2013.Playing in England as Man Utd I won the league 3 times Arsenal 4 times and Man City once.The highest Chelsea finished was 2nd in 09/10.