Community Project - Recreating Arsenal Invincibles

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I think attacking will be far too aggressive, Arsenal weren't really aggressive they were more laid back but countered with such speed. I think a higher line or a standard mentality will be much better and I can still see the counters I posted above. I need to see what others think first though but I think going attacking creates a lot of issues and takes away from the decent base we already have imo.

Yep I see where you're coming from. Being laid back with the ball may be another area we differ but I haven't seen a full 90 mins in a while. All the bits I remember and highlight reels are at blistering speed.

I'd be interested to see what people think of:

1. The depth of the defensive block
   
2. The speed (or lack of) in build up play
   

[Cleon]

Yep I see where you're coming from. Being laid back with the ball may be another area we differ but I haven't seen a full 90 mins in a while. All the bits I remember and highlight reels are at blistering speed.

I'd be interested to see what people think of:

1. The depth of the defensive block
   
2. The speed (or lack of) in build up play
   

I meant more laid back from what attacking mentality offers. They weren't an in your face side all the time like attacking mentality would make them. Yes they broke at speed and played high tempo for phases but that wasn't always a constant I don't believe.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

It seems like I'm being really negative towards you I don't mean to be but exploit the flanks isn't as option imo because what it actually does is;

Last thing you want is more crosses and central players holding the ball up.

Fine, don't take any of my advice. I am taking my ball and going home!

Joking aside, I didn't actually realise the effect on crossing and hold up the ball. Just ran an analysis and it doesn't seem the instruction made a huge amount of difference:

I'm pretty happy with those ratios. Certainly wouldn't be the first time the game's description wasn't accurate..

[DouglasMig]

What if I change for this?

_________________SK(S)_________________

_______________________________________

___WB(A)___CD(D)___CD(D)____IWB(S)_____

_______________________________________

___WP(S)__RPM(S)___CM(D)____WM(A)______

_______________________________________

__________CF(A)____F9(S)________________

Just a suggestion.

[Cleon]

That's not how they played really, well the IWB isn't something they used. Flipping it around to the right will work but isn't something I want to do as I want to stick to the invincible way which was on the left.

It's easy to fix all the issues that currently exists it really is. But would it then be the invincible Arsenal tactic? No as I need to adhere to the principles of what they used in real life and stick to them as closely as we can. Going attacking, swapping sides for roles or mixing them up totally isn't really an option. Sure I can and will change roles but when I do it'll be because we think the role is more suited to what we want to achieve. I think a few people are getting confused with making a tactic work and playing the invincible way

Sorry if it comes across as knocking people but its too easy to forget the main goal of the thread if we go down different avenues. Getting a tactic to work is easy and would take seconds, replicating a specific real life tactic and following it as closely as you can, not so easy and that's the challenge and what people will learn because it will show the capabilities and limitations of the match engine

[RTHerringbone]

Finally had a look, and I must say it's so much more stress free watching someone else's match I've had to retune my eyes in, because I've been doing an Instant Result only save, and I'm bound to miss a lot.

The easiest observation is that Sanchez was terrific to watch, and made that lateral run from one side of the pitch to the other on more than one occasion. It caused all sorts of trouble and is a very good stab at recreating the Henry Role. I reckon that on a Support Duty it'll be an even better fit, as I can recall countless Henry goals where he received the ball deep and just went; he, like Sanchez at full throttle, was just wonderful to see in full flow.

I recall reading The Invincibles recently, and I *think* Keown said that the plan was basically to get the ball to Viera, and his plan was to look for Bergkamp or Henry. That simple. As such, the use of the RPM Role in the middle makes sense, but I think the goalkeeper distribution needs to be looked at, as he often went long? Ideally you'd perhaps want that path from DC to MC to ST reflected.

Regarding Bergkamp, I agree that the F9 is brilliant in this match, but I'm not so sure it is pure Bergkamp, which got me thinking. I've seen DLF and DF Roles touted, but not the Trequartista? Given the description of Dennis in the first post, I wonder if that Role isn't worth a look? I'm not sure how Ozil's work rate in real life translates to FM and how that would affect his interpretation of the defensive side of the game in that Role though. The alternative is a change of shape to drop the STR back to AMCR. That opens up several alternative Roles and is possibly a good shout. Given what I read from Keown (or what I think I read from Keown), I think an additional playmaker Role to focus play that way might not be a bad idea, as long as it doesn't detract from the amount of time Sanchez gets on the ball. It'll certainly be interesting to see how Ozil performs in whatever you choose to do.

[NDavis95]

RT: I also thought that a treq may be a good idea for the Bergkamp role. But with the attacking roles at the top of the pitch how they are at the moment I didn't know how far deep he would drop. I also liked how the F9 created a 4411 out of possession and tracked back. Not so sure a treq would achieve that.

Cleon: Read the analysis and have to say I agree with most. The point made about the aggressive pressing in parts was something that I noticed while watching as well. At times they appeared to aggressively chase and at times the whole team just dropped deep. Do you think this could be an issue caused due to tactic familiarity?

[tsj]

Many good replies so far I think. The one thing I would try first (also in order to not change too many things at once) would be to increase mentality in order to get a more aggressive transition between defence and offence.

[Luke4]

Great thread! I'm following/imitating this with Arsenal currently. One thing I have done that helps to imitate the Henry role is having Sanchez mark the DR. I have seen more direct out balls to him out there, and then he cuts in from the sideline like Henry used to. Granted I would not use this against any side who pushes their DR up the field as he would be too deep when re-gaining possession, but vs weaker teams it works really well.

[css_matt]

Great thread! I'm following/imitating this with Arsenal currently. One thing I have done that helps to imitate the Henry role is having Sanchez mark the DR. I have seen more direct out balls to him out there, and then he cuts in from the sideline like Henry used to. Granted I would not use this against any side who pushes their DR up the field as he would be too deep when re-gaining possession, but vs weaker teams it works really well.

Cheeky way to force him out wide lol

[saqafie]

Nice one cleon, you and the rest have give in details analysis and im agree that the left side is something have to work on. As for F9, I think having someone with PPM look for pass rather than score would be great as most of the time bergkamp with one or two touch would release other onrushing player to finish.

[johnnytran]

I was always thought that Henry is an Advanced Forward, Ljungberg is Raumdeuter due to his strength of movement and finishing (in the old days he may simply setup as Winger - Attack with Dribble Less and Move into Channel?)

Vieira as a B2B is pretty accurate, his stamina and work rate will help the team both on attack and defense.

Perhaps a 4-4-2 Asymmetric will fit The Invincible 2015 more than flat 4-4-2, and it also add some depth for the midfielder as nowadays, dominating midfield is the main duty for almost all teams in the world.

Will keep an eye for this topic, cheers Cleon.

[Cleon]

Finally had a look, and I must say it's so much more stress free watching someone else's match I've had to retune my eyes in, because I've been doing an Instant Result only save, and I'm bound to miss a lot.

I'd forgot about this, I bet it did take some adjusting again for you

The easiest observation is that Sanchez was terrific to watch, and made that lateral run from one side of the pitch to the other on more than one occasion. It caused all sorts of trouble and is a very good stab at recreating the Henry Role. I reckon that on a Support Duty it'll be an even better fit, as I can recall countless Henry goals where he received the ball deep and just went; he, like Sanchez at full throttle, was just wonderful to see in full flow.

The differences between how this worked on FM14 compared to now is astonishing. What I was expecting to be the hardest thing to recreate turns out it was actually the easiest. Can't wait to see how he plays with a support duty running from deeper areas and dropping off the front, he should in theory be even more deadly.

I recall reading The Invincibles recently, and I *think* Keown said that the plan was basically to get the ball to Viera, and his plan was to look for Bergkamp or Henry. That simple. As such, the use of the RPM Role in the middle makes sense, but I think the goalkeeper distribution needs to be looked at, as he often went long? Ideally you'd perhaps want that path from DC to MC to ST reflected.

It does need changing definitely as he did go long an awful lot.

Regarding Bergkamp, I agree that the F9 is brilliant in this match, but I'm not so sure it is pure Bergkamp, which got me thinking. I've seen DLF and DF Roles touted, but not the Trequartista? Given the description of Dennis in the first post, I wonder if that Role isn't worth a look? I'm not sure how Ozil's work rate in real life translates to FM and how that would affect his interpretation of the defensive side of the game in that Role though. The alternative is a change of shape to drop the STR back to AMCR. That opens up several alternative Roles and is possibly a good shout. Given what I read from Keown (or what I think I read from Keown), I think an additional playmaker Role to focus play that way might not be a bad idea, as long as it doesn't detract from the amount of time Sanchez gets on the ball. It'll certainly be interesting to see how Ozil performs in whatever you choose to do

Those are some of the options we can explore after the next two games for definite. The reason I didn't mention the Treq was because its very similar to the F9 role but the F9 closes down more and tries more long shots so I'm not sure it would work. However that said, it will still be worth trying it or considering it based on the feedback so far. I'm looking forward to seeing Ozil in the role because mentally and technically he is much better than Welbeck, if I find he plays in a similar fashion to Welbeck then a role change or maybe a position change will be more appropriate I agree. Position change would have the greatest influence i reckon and make it easier to work due to all the new options we open up.

Cheers for the feedback RT

[Cleon]

RT: I also thought that a treq may be a good idea for the Bergkamp role. But with the attacking roles at the top of the pitch how they are at the moment I didn't know how far deep he would drop. I also liked how the F9 created a 4411 out of possession and tracked back. Not so sure a treq would achieve that.

Cleon: Read the analysis and have to say I agree with most. The point made about the aggressive pressing in parts was something that I noticed while watching as well. At times they appeared to aggressively chase and at times the whole team just dropped deep. Do you think this could be an issue caused due to tactic familiarity?

It isn't to do with tactic familiarity as its all fluid, that was easy to do during preseason after playing 13 friendlies. However it could very well be team cohesion as there are lots of new players who haven't played together before and although I worked on it in preseason there is still a long way to go with getting it upto a maxed level. It'll take another 3 or 4 weeks at least I think due to how many new players there is.

[Cleon]

Many good replies so far I think. The one thing I would try first (also in order to not change too many things at once) would be to increase mentality in order to get a more aggressive transition between defence and offence.

Maybe but anything higher than standard and it becomes too aggressive. I was more than happy with the way we countered and started moves from deep so its surprising seeing everyone say mentality needs changing and no-one thinks we can keep the same mentality and just use shouts to make us ever so slightly more aggressive with pressing and a higher line which I think would solve the issue instantly. The transitions between defence and offence seemed fine to me? The left was more disjointed but I covered that in the analysis and put it down to Cazorla having the wrong duty or maybe role.

Do others thing the transition phases were poor? I thought they looked really strong.

Great thread! I'm following/imitating this with Arsenal currently. One thing I have done that helps to imitate the Henry role is having Sanchez mark the DR. I have seen more direct out balls to him out there, and then he cuts in from the sideline like Henry used to. Granted I would not use this against any side who pushes their DR up the field as he would be too deep when re-gaining possession, but vs weaker teams it works really well.

It's an option, I just wanted to see how it went first without overcomplicating the initial PI's we used. It is a good call though and could help so its something we should consider.

Cheeky way to force him out wide lol

Maybe but it could detract from his game at the same time. He started central, moved wide and then moves central again a lot of the time. If he's marking the DR then he can be a bit too advanced which means sometimes when we win possession back he could be out of position. However its still something to explore but it can provide other complications then.

Nice one cleon, you and the rest have give in details analysis and im agree that the left side is something have to work on. As for F9, I think having someone with PPM look for pass rather than score would be great as most of the time bergkamp with one or two touch would release other onrushing player to finish.

I agree, the PPM's will play a big part here in how players interpret the role.

I was always thought that Henry is an Advanced Forward, Ljungberg is Raumdeuter due to his strength of movement and finishing (in the old days he may simply setup as Winger - Attack with Dribble Less and Move into Channel?)

Vieira as a B2B is pretty accurate, his stamina and work rate will help the team both on attack and defense.

Perhaps a 4-4-2 Asymmetric will fit The Invincible 2015 more than flat 4-4-2, and it also add some depth for the midfielder as nowadays, dominating midfield is the main duty for almost all teams in the world.

Will keep an eye for this topic, cheers Cleon.

I'm not sure I agree with dominating midfield is the main duty for almost all teams in the world. In fact recent trends this year outside or maybe Bayern/Barcelona is teams are doing more work when not in possession and we are seeing more systems utilise not actually having the ball which is creating some facinating matches, especially abroad in places like Italy, Spain and so on. Also a 4-4-2 can't really dominate the midfield anyway due to having a lack of numbers and needing to split the two MC's into defensive/attacking.

Ljungberg was definitely an inside forward, there's some fascinating analysis about him out there but a Raumdeuter could be an option, however I don't think his position or role needs changing. He worked almost perfectly if you watched the match? He did everything you'd expect to see from him during his Arsenal time.

[peleJunior]

Looking at Arsenal attacks in isolation it looks like there playing greasy fast attacking relentless stuff, but larger analysis shows that a lot of the time it's quick transitions from deeper positions, the dead give away is the amount of space Arsenal were able to exploit in behind teams with through balls.

[Jyuan83]

Looking at this clip of Ljungberg really highlights some similarities between him and another well-known goal-scoring wide player, namely Ronaldo. The way they poach goals in the penalty area plus their penchant for tapping in at the far post have become characteristic features of wide poachers in the modern game. If Ljungberg was playing the blueprint of the role with Arsenal back then, Ronaldo merely carried on and perfected the stiker-winger hybrid role. From just this clip alone, you can see his fondness for attempting shots from various angles and distances. I do not really notice him cutting inside often in this clip or from my earlier years of watching him on the telly. His movement was varied and constantly changing so as to unsettle defences. So playing him as a WM(a) instead of a raumdeuter is the right choice. A WM(a) offers more variety in their movment while also contributing to the overall development of the team's attacking play. A RDM on the other hand behaves like a wide trequartista, floating around and not really helping out creatively in the buildup play and much less so defensively. Ljungberg did drop back to help out in defence whenever the situation called for it. My 2 cents for the Ljungberg role would be WM(a) with just roaming and shoot more often. I also like what you have done with your Ljungberg role Cleon. As of now, how many goals has yours scored? The most in a season Ljungberg had ever scored for Arsenal was 17 in the 2001/2002 season.

[sirfletch2006]

One of the hardest things I've found to replicate Henrys role is his crossing ability, he was absolutely phenomenal cutting in on his right foot and whipping the ball into the area.

Only player close to him attribute wise on the game is Luis Suarez.

Also the back four all started their careers as midfielders, Lauren, Campbell and Toure were all DM/CM and Cole was a left winger, made them a lot more comfortable on the ball.

[Cleon]

Cheers for all the feedback so far, are others going to be writing some analysis up too? It seems a lot of people have ideas about doing this and that but not really offered feedback based on what they actually saw in the match.

[peleJunior]

I'll try and get something up for tonight. I'm afraid it might be rehashing old ground already written though. Maybe I will have a think on a different angle to discuss and then get to it.

[Special_One]

I don't want to insult Henry here but my Ajax side just played City in the Europa League quarters and whilst we beat them 5 2 I couldn't help noticing the Henry like runs Scott Sinclair was making from the STCL spot when he came on as sub. In terms of raw pace and PPMS (Runs with ball down left, Cuts inside, Knocks Ball past opponent) he seems perfect for that role. Runs with ball down left and cuts inside would be great if Welbeck or Sanchez could learn them IMO. Great thread by the way I'm utilising a WM(A) on the right for my Ajax side (no PIs) and Pione Sisto has been Ljungberg esque.. Raw pace and pops up everywhere just can't stop scoring!

[Luizinho]

Can I ask why everyone feels the Complete Forward - Support role is the best for Henry? I would of thought he'd be an Advanced Forward, utilising his pace and trying to get in behind?

[peleJunior]

Can I ask why everyone feels the Complete Forward - Support role is the best for Henry? I would of thought he'd be an Advanced Forward, utilising his pace and trying to get in behind?

Because he will pick up the ball deeper and go on dribbles from there rather than a higher starting position. It was a trademark of his style. It also allows better interplay with Pires and Coles role so it's not a decision taken in isolation.

[Cleon]

Can I ask why everyone feels the Complete Forward - Support role is the best for Henry? I would of thought he'd be an Advanced Forward, utilising his pace and trying to get in behind?

Because he will pick up the ball deeper and go on dribbles from there rather than a higher starting position. It was a trademark of his style. It also allows better interplay with Pires and Coles role so it's not a decision taken in isolation.

Henry was nowhere near as advanced as an Advanced Forward, he would come much much deeper which the AF role doesn't allow for.

[olivermain83]

Just got round to having a look at the match. Can't say I have anything to say that hasn't already been said. The Henry role already looks to be falling into place, Sanchez seems a good fit too unlike Welbeck for the Bergkamp role, although I thought Welbeck had a great game it didn't remind me of Bergkamp, too much running and not enough cute passes. Why not use the Treq role? that would have been my first stop.

Also has anyone noticed that it's a very similar set up to how Ancelotti has Madrid playing now? Wonder if he's an Arsenal fan...

[thomit]

Henry was nowhere near as advanced as an Advanced Forward, he would come much much deeper which the AF role doesn't allow for.

A striker with the "comes deep ..." ppm could indeed benefit from having the CF/a or AF role instead of the CF/s, when it comes to trying to replicate Henry. Indeed, Henry's got just that ppm. Well, until he retired, at least (December 2014 in my save). Welbeck will probably need the support duty to function close to the expected behaviour. If you could re-train Welbeck to ditch the "offside" ppm and give him the "comes deep" instead, it would maybe be another matter. Alexis has the same "problem" when trying to use him in Henry's position - he too will probably need the support role. On another note; The trequartista role suits Özil very well in a setup like this, and comes the closest to replicate Bergkamp's role, in my view. Even if it means dragging the Treq back to the AM strata. For the closest resemblance to the Invincibles, drag him straight back, do not center the striker and the AMC. You then have Alexis free to be a IF on either wing. By the way, I'm trying to use Welbeck as a CF/s with Özil to his right in the AM strata as a Treq. Welbeck is the top goalscorer so far in the PL (March 2015), and Özil has the most assists, with a fair few goals as well. Allthough in a different mentality/shape setup; I use Very Fluid and play Control, mostly. Nevertheless; It's pretty clear to see that Wenger's tactics haven't changed that much since 2004. Today's Arsenal is only slightly different from the Invincibles, and most of the differences stems from the available player types. No Vieira, so Ramsey/Wilshere is used differently*. Gilberto's role is changed slightly by having Arteta there, much is the same as before when Flamini plays in that position. And of course, the starting formation is nowadays more clearly in the 4231 category ... allthough in practical, on-pitch terms the formations (attacking vs defending) is mostly the same as ever.

Btw; Having a pairing of a CF/s and a Treq gives some interesting dynamics in the movements between these two players. If one comes deep, the other doesn't, and it presents the opp. defense with a problem. Then again, sometimes they both will be in advanced positions, or both coming deep ... definitely makes the attack very dynamic and hard to read for the opponents.

* If Vieira had been available, I think his role would be more a CM/s or a BBM, Ramsey/Wilshere more the Fabregas role, RPM. Pre Cesc's move into the AM strata, I mean.

[peleJunior]

Attacking Passing Patterns and the Creation and use of Space

There are 3 attacking patterns I'm focusing on:

1. F9 (Bergkamp) playing through balls to Henry and Ljunberg role and drifting wide to open up space for the Ljunberg role to cut into.

2. Henry role pulling left creating overloads on the flank with Pires/Cole with the intention of opening up space for the Ljunberg role on the opposite flank or creating slick interplay between the 3 creating for each other.

3. Overlapping Cole role.

*The F9 through ball options*

-----------------------------

0:52 - Wilshere has the ball and Welbeck has dropped into AMC position, the attacking duty of Sanchez keeps the Man. City back 4 honest creating the room for Welbeck, they cannot step forward and compress the space that Welbeck is in or risk leaving Sanchez and the Ox free in behind. Note Carzola deep position and the unexploited space in front of him... This is where a support duty Sanchez would find room. The attacking duty of the Ox would still help create room for Welbeck by pushing back Man. City's backline.

0:54 - Wilshere plays ball to Welbeck. Welbeck has good room to run into created by the Ox and Sanchez' attacking duties pushing back the City defence. Carzola again really deep but that does create room for an overlapping full back..

0:58 - Wellbeck takes the ball wide creating space for the Ox to move inside beyond him. Chambers and Ramsey are in excellent positions in case the ball needs to be recycled which will help keep the pressure on City.

8:24 - Welbeck again with Ox and Sanchez as through ball options (wonder if support duty Sanchez would nerf this somewhat). You can see this time the City defence has tried to push out onto Welbeck leaving spaces behind. A decision has to be made each time and that is what creates spaces for you. If tthey step out they leave the attacking duties get in behind them if they step off, it leaves Welbeck with room to play.

*Sanchez impact (pulling wide)*

3:00 - Ball won in own half. Wilshere plays ball to Carzola who finds Sanchez who has drifted into the left sided channel. Note Ox starting position in the top centre... Welbeck has already started to dart into the heart of the Man City back four. Apologies for missing screenshot of Welbecks run.

3:09 - Move continues. Sanchez performs a beautiful outside inside dribble and look at the room Ox has to attack, his speed has created this space, pure and simple, he has got beyond two Man City players form earlier in the move. Welbeck has checked and hung back forcing Fernando to make a choice to pick him up and not help defend the box leaving more space for Ox. The through ball for OX is on, Sanchez dribble has caused panic and the City defence look to engage him leaving the Ox in behind, also Welbeck holding back has asked the question of the City defence do we engange and leave space for the Ox in behind us. Unfortunately the through ball was cut out due to an excellent Kompany tackle.

15:22 - Sanchez has pulled into the channel and the Ox is on his bike.. I lost the next screenshot but I will try to describe what happened. Sanchez dribbles all the way across the field, imagine the havoc created if Carzola was on an attacking duty, because City have been dragged across with Sanchez run. If Sanchez could work the ball back to Carzola he could even get the overlapping Gibbs in. All caused by the space Sanchez innovative dribble has opened up, starting wide and coming inside.

*Overlaping into Space*

5:45 - Carzola plays in Gibbs who is overlapping. Gibbs has Sanchez trying to get in behind. It's important to note that it is the deepness of Carzola's position that creates the room for Gibbs to go and attack. It's the push and pull concept again, its how you force the oppostion to make decisions to move out of position or not, and either one can be detrimental, if you dont follow the deeper player he has time to pick a pass/dictate play/hit a long shot, but if you do follow him you let the attacking runner get in behind.

5:46 - A great last ditch challenge from Kompany denies Sanchez getting onto Gibbs pass.

14:07 - Carzola's deep positioning allows Gibbs to get beyond him into that space he has created by tucking inside and deep, it leaves acres of space exploitable on the touchline of that side. It's classic pull and push movement again. Carzola (support) pulls players out of their deeper positions and Gibbs (Attacking) pushes into it.

*A quick observation*

12:58 - Carzola has ball very deep. There is room aplenty for a support Sanchez in front of him, its alot of space that is not being exploited. Even Gibbs has not. Carzola was forced into a backwards pass.

*Another quick observation*

21:24 - Sanchez, Carzola and Gibbs axis. This is something I think that we would like to see alot more of. But it has to have a purpose of course. If this area gets overloaded with these 3 players then it might pull across the oppositions defence leaving room for the Ox to creep into. Not to mention some slick interplay between the 3 to create chances for each other.

[baggi0]

Watched the match and a lot of conclusions above are great I think.

One think I would like to point out, about the first City goal ; Chambers got a free header of that long ball from Kompany, which led to City receiving the ball back and scoring. Because there was no pressure and he had 2 options to head the ball (Koscielny and Ramsey), it was a strange error. Is that fault explained because of his low attributes (Heading, composure?) or is it a wrong player/team instruction?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Also has anyone noticed that it's a very similar set up to how Ancelotti has Madrid playing now? Wonder if he's an Arsenal fan...

Yes! That is actually how I stumbled upon my formation above.

I wanted to play Wilshere and Ramsey as a midfield combination and started thinking about who else plays playmaker type midfielders and no real holding midfielder and of course real Madrid play Kroos and Modric. Inspired by Real Madrid's victory over Barcelona in October I copied their lightweight, creative midfield with pace and movement ahead of them. I then realised I'd created a very similar system to the invincibles.

[declanelcocks]

I was surprised to see you'd chose F9 off the bat rather than a DLF. F9s come deep sure, but they dribble way too much and no matter what PPMs you train they are still determined to shoot from outside the box.

From my experiences using a DLF, they are much more similar to how Bergkamp played. One problem I always have is that they seem to hold the ball up a bit too much sometimes, to the point where you can see a good pass on your screen, but the player decides to just hold the ball up, wriggling around until he gets tackled or fouled. It may be something to consider when using a DLF, maybe you could compensate for that by telling him to dribble more so that he doesn't hold up the ball too often. This could also be down to my TI instructions to some extent. I do also like how much the DLF will roam though, whenever I use it I always see the DLF popping up near the touchlines or deep near the CMs which is great.

I think it would be good to think of a way of putting Bergkamp into the AMCR slot though, as even with a DLF/F9, the striker will only come deep to play one pass. After he's finished linking the play up he will sprint off into the box a lot of the time. I guess we want Bergkamp to roam a lot more than that, essentially acting as a Trequartista, only with a better defensive work rate.

Yes! That is actually how I stumbled upon my formation above.

I wanted to play Wilshere and Ramsey as a midfield combination and started thinking about who else plays playmaker type midfielders and no real holding midfielder and of course real Madrid play Kroos and Modric. Inspired by Real Madrid's victory over Barcelona in October I copied their lightweight, creative midfield with pace and movement ahead of them. I then realised I'd created a very similar system to the invincibles.

There are some big differences in the roles both sides use/used, but I'd say they're essentially the same so it's no wonder Madrid went on a win streak of 20+ games

[Cleon]

It's no surprise that I choose an F9 off the bat really, it would be a boring thread if I picked all the perfect roles to begin with it would have been rather pointless

[declanelcocks]

It's no surprise that I choose an F9 off the bat really, it would be a boring thread if I picked all the perfect roles to begin with it would have been rather pointless

Fair point!

[johnnytran]

So we should play Ozil as DLF-Attack, right? In my previous save, I played him as Trequartista (combined with Completed Forward/DLF Support on the front) and feel that Ozil was dribble too much, despite he offered many key passes (he's placed 3rd at World Player of the Year also).

For the defenders, I don't know how to setup DL similar to Ashley Cole, he's perfect at both attacking - defending and also great partner with Henry upfront. Maybe set him as Wing Back - Support would be better?

[Jean0987654321]

I had an idea of this recreational tactic

G

WB (S)-CD-CD-CWB

------------A---------------

Wm (a)-----BBM-------------

------SS (a)---------------IF (s)

----------------CF (s)

Once again, it is a slightly asymmetric 4-4-2 formation

TIS

Shorter Passing

Pass Into Space

Work Ball Into Box

Play Out Of Defense

Play Narrower

Push Higher Up

Close Down More

Prevent Short GK Distribution

Lower Tempo

PIS

WB - Shoot Less Often, Stay Wider, Run Wide With Ball

CWB - Shoot Less Often, Run Wide With Ball

CB - Close Down More, Pass It Shorter

WM- Sit Narrower, Shoot Less Often, Cut Inside With Ball

IF - Shoot Less Often, Sit Narrower

CF - Shoot Less Often, Pass It Shorter, Move Into Channels

[declanelcocks]

I had an idea of this recreational tactic

Can't say I agree at all with Pires being an IF, Bergkamp being an SS or Gilberto being an A. If you watch the behaviour of these roles in game it's very different to how they played on the pitch. Bergkamp, for example, was much more of a playmaker than the SS role allows for even with PI's.

[Jean0987654321]

Can't say I agree at all with Pires being an IF, Bergkamp being an SS or Gilberto being an A. If you watch the behaviour of these roles in game it's very different to how they played on the pitch. Bergkamp, for example, was much more of a playmaker than the SS role allows for even with PI's.

I can't say that Bergkamp was a playmaker. When I watched him play he was acting like a striker in a deep role. Also Giberto always played deeper than most of the midfielders. Pires was in an Advanced Role and I think IF represents his role well.

[Cleon]

I can't say that Bergkamp was a playmaker. When I watched him play he was acting like a striker in a deep role. Also Giberto always played deeper than most of the midfielders. Pires was in an Advanced Role and I think IF represents his role well.

He wasn't a striker he was clearly a playmaker, he scored 5 goals in 38 (started 30, used as sub for 8) games in the whole of the Invincibles season, but created a lot more. If you watch games and not highlights he actually didn't get in the box all that much, he used to be selfless and play others in rather than trying to score himself.

[thomit]

If we're talking just the Invincibles season, Bergkamp was more a playmaker than a striker. He dropped deeper with every year, and in his last 2 or 3 seasons he was sitting rather deep. More AMC than STR.

[Kawee]

Gilberto was also not an anchorman like Makelele. He only became one around 2006. He came to us as a World Cup winning defensive midfielder, but a dynamic one who had no problem pushing forward at times.

[Cleon]

Any other peoples still yet going to watch the game and analyse it? Only been 5 people who have so far and while I appreciate those who have it certainly doesn't warrant me spending time writing a second post about it if people aren't getting involved.

[Johnny Ace]

I've watched the game in full but have kept shtum because all of the points I noted have already been talked about. I'm certainly interested in further games to watch, analyse & think about & see how it develops against other teams

[Letissier1980]

Ill do it now cleon. I'm loving this thread and appreciate everything you (and the other mods) do on here. The thing is I always thought I knew quite a lot about football but as I am still rubbish at the game and compared to seeing what you do, I do not feel I have a lot to offer.

So here goes - disclaimer, I'm not very good at this game and have struggled since 13 so this is only a poor / average users view.

My analysis is only on the style of play and not on how to win the match:

Welbeck / Bergkamp drops deep and Ox fills that space.

Both full backs pushing up nicely forming the defensive 'trio' od 2 x cb's and cmd.

Sanchez / Henry dropping off defender the attacking defender forth and back.

Sanchez acting like classic Henry out wide and cutting inside

Sanchez / Henry as a high outlet receiving ball out wide and running at defence

75th Minute Goal classic arsenal with Ox / Ljundburg goal

Overall I think it was a pretty good representation. I think City were lucky to draw and Arsenal would have scored more if the Welbeck / Bergkamp role would not of wasted play by leaving the finishing to Sanchez / Henry.

Questions I would ask are (to create a more likeness to the style of play not to win) :

Welbeck / Bergkamp - too many shots / Good key passes / Did he dribble too much? (Role change - DLF, AP, adapted am possibly?)

Cazorla / Pires - Was he involved high up enough? Did he create enough in the final third? (possibly make him more attacking?)

A lot of shots were blocked on the right - is this a problem?

Last of all maybe the defensive line could of been higher. I felt the tempo and mentality was sound but I felt as if the line could be higher at times which may have engaged the cmd earlier.

Hope this helps cleon - keep up the excellent and incredibly thorough work.

[max787]

I've just watched the match you uploaded, here are my thoughts:

- Sanchez as CFa seems fine tbh, but it would be interesting to see him on a support role.

- Bergkamp role should be set to DLFs in imo, the F9 takes too many long shots.

- MR, CMR, and CML, look good.

- ML wasn't great, WMs with PIs and Sanchez on a support role would probably help I think.

- Defensive roles and duties were good.

- Goalkeeper distribution needs to be sorted out. The current personnel lack the height of the invincibles, you're going to have to distribute to full backs imo.

- I'd add "push higher up" as a TI and I'd get rid of the higher tempo shout personally.

[jackane24]

Cheers for the suggestions but it's probably a better idea to wait for the game and view that before making suggestions on what should be changed etc once we see how it all interacts together. You also have to remember that roles in FM and their names can be very different from the same role with the same name in real life, it depends how SI implemented the role. I don't mean to come across as being arsey but the whole point is we work on this together by viewing the game and then make the required changes on what we see happening on the pitch, that's why the above is just a base from which we will work from

Also interesting what you say about Bergkamp because from all the games I've re-watched lately from this period he was anything but stationery, he would drift wide, come deep in the search of space and the ball. He roamed about a moved a hell of a lot around the pitch. You'd often see him drift wide and allow Ljungberg to go beyond him. He could also hold up the ball when needed and pass it around but I'd not call him the most stationery attacker from what I've seen. However I do think the F9 role isn't the best for him and like I pointed out further up the thread I can think of two ways off the top of my head to make him play more like Bergkamp I reckon but we'll see what people think when they see the games rather than jumping ahead. I could easily make the changes now if I wanted but that's too easy, I want people to view the game then make suggestions and I hink this project can help people understand tactics and get a better grasp of the match engine by getting them to be a bit more visually hands on with looking for certain things or characterising while watching the match

Came across this the other day and I think it's really important -

[leggie1973]

HI everyone, enjoying this thread a lot especially as I'm playing with a 442 for the first time in my FM13 save...

Re. Bergkamp as the F9 - I felt that he wasn't getting forward enough and was too much of a passing hub in midfield.

I'd suggest changing the role to a DF(s), and modify it with either PI's to make more risky passes or the killer balls PPM for the player, meaning that he still drops back in defensive mode, looks to make 'playmakery' passes and carries that little bit of 'bite' in the role as well, Bergkamp did get the odd sending off now again for double bookings or an appalingly timed tackle.

[declanelcocks]

HI everyone, enjoying this thread a lot especially as I'm playing with a 442 for the first time in my FM13 save...

Re. Bergkamp as the F9 - I felt that he wasn't getting forward enough and was too much of a passing hub in midfield.

I'd suggest changing the role to a DF(s), and modify it with either PI's to make more risky passes or the killer balls PPM for the player, meaning that he still drops back in defensive mode, looks to make 'playmakery' passes and carries that little bit of 'bite' in the role as well, Bergkamp did get the odd sending off now again for double bookings or an appalingly timed tackle.

Good idea to be honest, he will hold up play and put in a good shift, and with the right PPMs and PIs would still play great through balls to teammates. Sounds good in theory but I've never actually tried a DF in FM15 so I have no idea how they actually perform ingame.

[max787]

I've played half a season now trying to implement an invincibles tactic, I'm fairly happy with all of the roles except the Pires role. It just seems impossible to get right. I suspect it's heavily dependent upon player intelligence and PPMs.

[sirfletch2006]

Also played half a season, I bought Dybala to play the Henry role. He has the PPM hugs touchline so when he roams into the left wing position it creates a lot of space for the Pires and Viera roles.

He also gets a fair number of assists from crosses, reading some of the links 30% of Henrys assists were from crosses from the left.

I persevered with Ozil as a F9, it works too well, he's top scorer with 25 goals from 30 apps, not really Bergkamp though. Might change it to DF(s) as mentioned above.

[jackane24]

How about Wilshere as Bergkamp? He has the aggression and work rate of Bergkamp, and has great technique, balance and intelligence. Needs work on finishing, first touch and strength but otherwise I think a great option? Even has the same shirt number

[sirfletch2006]

How about Wilshere as Bergkamp? He has the aggression and work rate of Bergkamp, and has great technique, balance and intelligence. Needs work on finishing, first touch and strength but otherwise I think a great option? Even has the same shirt number

Woah, never thought of that. I will definitly give that a try.