Community Project - Recreating Arsenal Invincibles

[Columnarius]

Any other peoples still yet going to watch the game and analyse it? Only been 5 people who have so far and while I appreciate those who have it certainly doesn't warrant me spending time writing a second post about it if people aren't getting involved.

Cleon,

I suspect many people (myself included) are highly valuing this in its ability to help them understand how to evaluate what is happening in a match and also to deepen their understanding of how tactics translate to the pitch but don't feel qualified to offer useful feedback and are holding back.

In your opening post, you encouraged people not be shy about that. Perhaps we can reinforce that message?

For my part, I'll take a shot at it in the next day or two.

Thanks for initiating this. Looking forward to match #2.

[Cleon]

I've added the next games (2nd and 3rd) for people to download and analyse in post 3

[max787]

Sanchez had 19 runs v Palace? That's insane, I don't think I've ever seen that many in a single match.

[Cleon]

Sanchez had 19 runs v Palace? That's insane, I don't think I've ever seen that many in a single match.

He's averaging about 12 atm yeah. Hopefully they'll be toned down in a future patch though.

[RozA]

I noticed in match 2 and 3 that Sanchez was left on Complete Forward Attack was this deliberate rather than support? I do think it works very well as attack mind you. Plays very similar to Henry which I have never seen on FM before.

[Cleon]

I noticed in match 2 and 3 that Sanchez was left on Complete Forward Attack was this deliberate rather than support? I do think it works very well as attack mind you. Plays very similar to Henry which I have never seen on FM before.

If you read the text in the post you downloaded the matches from I explained why

[RozA]

My bad I downloaded the games without reading underneath haha. Sorry. The perfect answer is there already.

[RTHerringbone]

I'll try to have a look at these games in the next day or two

Question - is Ozil featuring now, or still unavailable?

[felley]

Hey Cleon. A couple of quick points after watching the second game vs. Crystal Palace.

1) What to do with the LM role! It's confusing me, because on the one hand I think it's spot on, and Rosicky's flair and movement is really reminiscent of Pires... But in purely FM terms, I think he's a little too deep at times. The attack duty would obviously get him further forward, but you may have to notch back Monreal (who I thought was excellent getting up and down the line), so as not to have the possibility of a gaping hole on your left flank for better opposition to exploit.

2) The partnership in midfield is spot on for Viera/Gilberto. Defensive-wise, Wilshere jockey's the dribblers into blind alleys and Romero mops up. Attacking-wise, Romero offers a deep out ball whilst Wilshere attempts quick dangerous balls to the forwards/out wide.

3) Bloody Sanchez! He is honestly so Henry-esque, it's outrageous. He carries the ball further than he ever passes it, his movement is fantastic in that left channel (as well as popping up elsewhere which is something Henry was also very much fond of) and his goal could easily be an Henry goal - the pause as he allows Ward to continue tracking nobody (buying himself space), the little jink onto his right foot, and the solid finish into the far corner. You are definitely onto a winner with that role. I'm not sure that notching him down to a support duty would actually be the best idea as I always think of Henry as aggressive, fast, intelligent and just proper dangerous. He was capable of an assist of course, but I think the Complete Forward role incorporates that in an attack duty too.

Nothing much else to add other than to say thanks for the great idea for a community project. I'll check the other game out tomorrow.

[jackane24]

Question - is Ozil featuring now, or still unavailable?

[Cleon]

I'll try to have a look at these games in the next day or two

Question - is Ozil featuring now, or still unavailable?

Still injured but he is back for the next game.

Let's not be silly and post crap that has nothing to do with the thread. If you've nothing to add to the discussion then don't post.

[Cleon]

Hey Cleon. A couple of quick points after watching the second game vs. Crystal Palace.

1) What to do with the LM role! It's confusing me, because on the one hand I think it's spot on, and Rosicky's flair and movement is really reminiscent of Pires... But in purely FM terms, I think he's a little too deep at times. The attack duty would obviously get him further forward, but you may have to notch back Monreal (who I thought was excellent getting up and down the line), so as not to have the possibility of a gaping hole on your left flank for better opposition to exploit.

2) The partnership in midfield is spot on for Viera/Gilberto. Defensive-wise, Wilshere jockey's the dribblers into blind alleys and Romero mops up. Attacking-wise, Romero offers a deep out ball whilst Wilshere attempts quick dangerous balls to the forwards/out wide.

3) Bloody Sanchez! He is honestly so Henry-esque, it's outrageous. He carries the ball further than he ever passes it, his movement is fantastic in that left channel (as well as popping up elsewhere which is something Henry was also very much fond of) and his goal could easily be an Henry goal - the pause as he allows Ward to continue tracking nobody (buying himself space), the little jink onto his right foot, and the solid finish into the far corner. You are definitely onto a winner with that role. I'm not sure that notching him down to a support duty would actually be the best idea as I always think of Henry as aggressive, fast, intelligent and just proper dangerous. He was capable of an assist of course, but I think the Complete Forward role incorporates that in an attack duty too.

Nothing much else to add other than to say thanks for the great idea for a community project. I'll check the other game out tomorrow.

1) He's way too deep, Pires used to get forward and could be a goal threat himself. However I'm not worried as I can solve the issues by giving him an attack duty or changing him to a wide midfielder with individual instructions. I'd not have to knock back Monreal at all, he's attacking so if I knocked him back after changing the Pires role to a more attacking one I'd only be increasing the gap between them and making it even bigger. That's not what I want at all, so he'd stay attacking as that reduces the gap.

2) I'm pretty happy with this as well.

3) The more I'm watching the more I think this role has been nailed now even on attack. I will still try support though to see just how different it is.

[Paul Scholes]

Cleon, maybe you could try to put F9 on central striker position, so CF-S will be more near left.

[Cleon]

Cleon, maybe you could try to put F9 on central striker position, so CF-S will be more near left.

If you've read the thread at all you'll see that the striker position is sorted and I've managed to replicate the Henry role quite easy. But a F9 isn't suitable, he plays well and is a massive player but it doesn't look anything like the Bergkamp role.

[Paul Scholes]

Well, I think it's time to try DLF with support duty.

[Steviedaniels]

Righty so I've watched the Palace game through and these are my observations:

GK: Giving away possession too much with long punts up the field and I don't think this suits the Invincibles way, I would set him to distribute to full backs maybe on shorter passing style to try and start moves on the ground from the back more often, can't see any reason why this won't be beneficial to the team as a whole.

CB's: Perform their duties well but as already mentioned they are too deep too often and it leaves exploitable space between the midfield and defence occasionally despite the fact that the CM(D) does a fab job cleaning things up for you most of the time.

RB: Looks about right to me he makes some lovely runs down the right at times offering overlap options, can't see a whole lot that needs changing here.

WBL(A): Not bad but I keep feeling like he could offer more by being a bit wider he seems a little narrow at times to me but this may be showing as it is in the heat maps due to taking up good defensive positions which was a clear feature.

CM(D): Nothing to change as mentioned above the role is being performed really well.

RPM(S): Supports his fellow central midfielder really well and I think a case could be made that this role is right, for me though Viera used to arive late in the box at times as well and provide another surging runner, I think it will be worth switching this to a BBM, certainly worth trying in my view!

WMR(A): Yup I like the look of this a lot in game and it is great to see him doing a Ljungberg in the game and getting in that box to get his goal...good stuff!

WP(S): I don't like how this is working in the engine at all from what I have watched, it isn't bad as such, he just doesn't play like Pires used too right now, Pires was so often on the scoresheet in that season and was frequently seen in a central advanced position running from deep. Looking at the roles I wonder if a WM(S) Duty with 'Get Further Forward', 'Sit Narrower' and 'Roam From Position' were checked.

CF(A): Working really well, gets into great positions, great runnign with ball at feet and a goal to boot. Only critism is not pulling really wide like Henry used too but I think it will be really hard to replicate this in the engine really, frankly I think it already performs way better than I really expected.

F9: Now then this role is interesting, it does pretty well but I don't know, something about it not exactly Bergkamp'y. Would the suggestion of a CF(S) be totally outrageous? The tooltip describes him as 'dropping deep' and 'playing balls through the defensive line'...this sounds more like him to me!

Overall feeling and suggestions:

Good performance here, the third goal was beautiful and looked like the sort of football they played, but at times, the tempo is still too sluggish there is a lack of urgency, have outlined below a possible way to fix this.

I might be shot down here but despite Arsenal often being thought of as a short passing team I think there is scope to increase the directness of passing for the Invincibles and this goes well hand in hand with the higher tempo. I wonder if shifitng mentality to Standard to bring the Def Line up a little bit (I think this might also make it appear like you break up opposition possession a little better I was suprised to see that although this was a dominant performance Palace had a higher possession rating!) and switching on Direct Passing as well, Arsenal were masters of moving the ball quickly from Defence to Attack that season and I think this could help stop the 'sluggishness' I feel you see watching this team at the moment in game.

All I can think of right now

[Cleon]

Cheers for the analysis

Hopefully others will follow now too....

[Paul Scholes]

''but Arsenal used 2

anchors (Vieira – G. Silva). To be more

precise, actually neither of them played the

defensive midfielder role, they were

anchors in a central midfielder role'' - this is part from one of the analysis Cleon put in the opening post. It also says, when Gilberto Silva goes forward Viera stays back and vice versa.

[RTHerringbone]

Have finally got round to watching the Palace game:

I'm going to tackle this in a different way, and look at the player stats first.

Szczesny's distribution is crap and needs a look - 10 out of 23 passes.

Very different contribution from the full backs, with Monreal banging in 14 crosses to Chambers' 0. He's also more active in terms of tackling, which is perhaps unexpected, given the fact that the player in front of him should be more defensively involved than Chamberlain on the other side. If could, of course, just show that Palace's right flank contributed little threat.

Mertesacker's passing also seems a little awry. Unsure if this is the players attributes at play, or indicative of an issue in matches.

The MC duo seem statistically solid. Good pass completion, relatively little defensive action needed but did what they needed to well. I was slightly surprised to see Wilshere's pass attempts to be a tiny bit lower than I expected. Even though he was taken off with 13 to go, I'd have possibly anticipated him to be more a focal point in the middle. Tellingly, the Key Passes came from out wide.

Rosicky looks to have made a lot of passes out from the left flank, but hasn't run past anyone nor taken many accurate shots - is he in the right places. The Ox is interesting as his Role has been tweaked and his Runs and Shot stats imply he is getting clear enough sights of goal to be effective.

Sanchez looks like he's done nothing Not messing about with passing much, running past people all the time, scoring AND assisting. Very tame

Giroud has had a fair bit of the bal, but hasn't always used it very well. He's getting fouled a lot, which could be handy if it's in key areas. Only 1 in 4 shots on target, need to see if they are actual shots or headers from corners etc.

As people who moan about CCCs should be aware, stats are never the whole story in FM, so I'll now watch the match on Comprehensive:

17:48 Bad and good. Rosicky is definitely too reserved and should be a good 15 yards further up field and then following the attack. Too deep for Pires and the behaviour once the pass is made to Sanchez is also too cautious. But - then Thierry is on the pitch! Lovely drift inside with a shot which was too central.

20:50 The CM (D) Role is an interesting one in FM15. At the moment, they probably sit a bit too deep, too early in defensive phases, and here Romero could arguably support the attack a little more? It's really splitting hairs, but I wonder if more could be done offensively, or was Gilberto really this reserved? Rosicky (Pires) passes and hangs back too deep.

** Random Thought - didn't Henry take Arsenal's corners? **

27:01 Lovely move. Wilshere's first time pass to Monreal is perfect and I can remember Vieira playing a few quick balls like this. Rosicky again too deep.

29:55 I do think Giroud would be better off at AMC to replicate Bergkamp, possibly as a modified Attacking Midfielder. I'd rather see him moving with the ball up the field, rather than down the field and then up again. If you persist with him in this sort of position, you might want to rein in Giroud's shooting! This also appears to show a bit of a limitation of the Henry Role, as you could argue that he'd be in the channel between the DC and full back here. Rosicky should be further forward, again.

30:50 I was crying out for Sanchez to check inside and run at the defence here, but he combines well with Rosicky (who is in the right sort of areas now).

44:19 Hoof from Szchzhxzhzhny here. I'd encourage anything to prevent this! Ox and Giroud contest the same ball, possible clash of settings. Move ends with Rosicky in a decent area again. He just needs to get there faster, so possibly just reverting to Attack will do the required here.

59:44 Very off position from Giroud here. I think AMC is the way forward. Rosicky again too reserved.

At exactly 63:37 is where I think Giroud (Bergkamp) should be starting his run from (he has dropped back, here)

65:15 Lovely goal, Henry-esque and actually from this deep position, Giroud is pretty Bergkamp like too? Fantastic counter attack.

That's basically my lot. As I see it, a few things to consider:

1. Sort goalkeeper distribution. If I'm honest, I've no idea what Crazy Jens' pass completion was like, but I don't recall him being like this.

2. Rosicky might just need to switch to attack Duty. Sometimes he ends up in the right area, but he needs to get there earlier. I wonder if he might suit being rather similar to The Ox's instructions, perhaps without Dribble Less.

3. I wonder if there is a safe way to squeeze more from the Gilberto Role? Is there a need to? At the moment, I'm not convinced there is much sign of Vieira ever sitting and Gilberto going? I know it tended to be the other way round, but I wonder if the current settings prevent this? Real nit-picking

4. The Henry Role is massively effective and cuts inside and finishes almost perfectly. The only question mark is the positioning when defending deeper down the field. I wonder if it is worth just trying him as an IF (A) as an experiment? That way he will drop deeper when defending, but it may take the edge off his attacking play, which you should try to avoid.

5. Minor detail, but did Henry take the crosses and free kicks?

6. Giroud. I think I said it after the first match, but I'd like to see a Role swap as a minimum, and experimenting with a position swap as a maximum. I want him to pick the ball up deeper and then play the pass or make the dribble. At the moment he starts too high.

[declanelcocks]

What's the situation with player instructions at the moment? I saw the team instructions and what not from the first page but have there been any PIs added? Just asking as I was about to download the pkm for a watch later on

[Cleon]

They're in post 2, not sure how you can miss the screenshots if you've read the post.

Brilliant analysis RT

[poma]

Great thread - I've actually been trying something similar lately myself.

The False 9 is an interesting option for the Bergkamp role. My understanding of the False 9 role is essentially the Messi role, which I would have said was very different to the way Bergkamp played. Bergkamp was the most stationary of Arsenal's attacking players. I would describe him as the classic number 10 which is why I chose Enganche.

Given Sanchez' off the ball movement combined with PPMs Likes to Beat Offside Trap and Moves into Channels he is an excellent option for the Henry role. Complete Forward (Support) + Move into Channels + Run Wide with Ball = Perfection. 31 goals and 18 assists in my game.

Here is my attempt. Adapted the midfield for current players but the left side is my best attempt at an Invincible recreation:

Good luck!

What team instructions / player instructions do you use here?

[Cleon]

Please PM him so people don't get confused.

[LeedsUnitedForLife]

looks pretty good man hahhahahahaha

[RTHerringbone]

looks pretty good man hahhahahahaha

It has been noticed that you keep posting really pointless comments in multiple areas of the forum.

If you can't post something constructive or relevant to the thread, please just don't bother.

[Cleon]

First I'd like to thank everyone who offered feedback on the first match and I appreciate RT's and steviedaniel's effort for the second game. The thing is though it seems like people aren't interested for some reason and the whole point of this thread was for other peoples benefit not my own. I already have a working Invincible tactic that I've created. We get lots of threads on here saying 'I don't know what to look for when watching games' etc, well this thread was designed for them to learn and participate. But it seems no-one really wants to give this ago, the latest games I posted have been up 5 days now and only the 2 people mentioned above have gave feedback.

It's simply not worth my effort to help any longer when the people who need the help are not participating in the discussion. So with that in mind I'll be closing the thread and ending this project on here as its a waste of time me writing stuff out for other people's benefit when they aren't getting engaged with the idea and wanting to learn how stuff works. I may as well save the time and effort