Creating A Tactic - Design, Create and Maintain

[Luizinho]

Dont forget attributes like work rate are also important

All my players in the AM start have workrates around 11? Does this mean that it can't be done effectively?

[Barnet]

Just thought I'd drop by and say thanks to you Cleon for this thread. I was a sliders nut in the old days when mentality was important but was struggling to get the new tools working in the way I wanted. As a LLM this tactic is probably too risky for me, given the number of individual errors my CBs make, so I've applied some of the analysis tips and managed to finally build a stable 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 which can be flexed and are paying dividends. Just the right amount of advice and insight and enough to get me thinking.

I'm still not convinced I'm using the right shouts in the right way at the right time to turn a match but at least when my team are on song they are good to watch.

Thanks again.

Barnet

[Barnet]

Just a small addendum to the above. The heat map can be particularly useful in games. If you know how you want your players to play and where you want your players to play on the pitch, the heat map can help you determine if your mentality is appropriate.

For example, on one of my saves where I have quick CBs I play a very high defensive line and a high press. Sometimes I can be pegged back by teams applying a similar press under standard mentality and as such my players aren't in the places on the pitch where I want them to be (too deep) Switching mentality encourages the players to get higher up the pitch and can make a huge difference.

[bdixon]

Getting my team to play like Bayern is becoming an obsession, has anyone developed this further?

[Cleon]

How do you mean develop it further? It's all there already. What you should do is tailor it to suit you and what you want to achieve with the players you have, that is how you develop it further. But for me and what I wanted to achieve there was nothing more to develop.

[bdixon]

Well my obsession is to get it playing like Bayern in real life, yes the ME more than likely won't allow it but it is something I'm striving for. So thanks for the initial framework I applaud you Sir.

[cgogude]

Hi Cleon, this would actually be my first ever post on here even though i've been following your threads for a while and i'm a big fan of you and a couple of the other guys on here. Would like to post a quick question here to delve a little bit further into your mind... your line of logical thinking here. So say we are going along with the space and movement line of thinking, and tactics being about creating space for yourself and reducing it for the opponent, what if in post 5 for instance, you weren't playing against a bog standard 442, and you were maybe playing against a formation that had a DM ( thereby reducing the space in behind the midfield), or a team that still had a DM and was attacking rather than sitting back, what would your line of thinking be. Would it be the opposite of what you've done here. How would you then be looking to create space for yourself and reduce it for your opponent. All this still using the 4141 tactic in your setup. Thanks

[cheuk3]

hi, Cleon

what would you do if you cant win the ball back and get the possession against a 4231 with 3amc?

what would you do if you have a player got red card ?

how do you play if the weather is bad, like rain...snow?

and thanks for the great useful thread

[Luckydon]

Cleon, thank you so much for this posts. I was love to read them and looking forward for new posts from you. Great job. Really appreciate.

We've translated it and posted in russian FM-community with backlink to this thread. I've read you don't mind if backlink is set, but I thought it would be better to inform you:

http://fmfan.ru/board/index.php?showtopic=56830

[saltshaker]

Hi Cleon,

I really want to learn how to changing my tactic based on learning the analysis tab. checking the half-time performance, tweak it and eventually full-time, learn the mistake.

I give it a try so many times but i always get lost on how should i react correctly on some situation.

e.g. shot and scoring chances-what shld i check and how to improve it, interceptions-what shld i conclude from what i see, movement-how to maximize it, etc, and so on.

Do you have a guide on how to read the analysis performance in more details? and what can be done to fix the situation?

or perhaps any reference for me to study? couldn't find one currently from this forum

Thanks!

[cgceliksoy]

i play the game in my own language so what does df stand for for your striker?

[llama3]

Defensive Forward

[K3ZZ4]

I always wanted to make a tactic a la Pep . After watching Bayern yesterday , i decided to still try to make a tactic like Bayern . I am an absolute fan of Pep and the way he let play Bayern is just like how Barcelona played back in 2011. Tiki taka but "in another jacket" . Every time i google for analysis of Bayern i repeatly see that Bayern is playing a 4141 system... But are they really playing that system?

what i think:

Balanced/Counter

Keeper: GK (D) pass to defender, pass shorter. not the sweeper role but with the PI i think i make some kind of SW keeper in a more cautious GK Role

Fullbacks: the DL (Alaba) Always bomb the left front BUT he also cut inside to the middle so that Ribbery take the right back up wide leaving the marker of the DL clueless.. the DR would bomb the right flank but wont cut inside as the DR does. So i would make the DL a CWB (A) and the DR a FB (S or Auto)

Defenders: Dante is more a BPD so i would go for a BPD/CD combi with the BPD (Cover) and CD (Stopper)

Def Midfielder: that would be a HB (D) as Lahm/Schweinsteiger Always drop deep between the Defenders.

Midfielders: Gotze is an AP (A) player. So i would go for at least 1 mc as AP (A). Kroos played yesterday more as BBM (S) being everywhere and Always arriving "later" in the box. So I would go for AP (A) and BBM (S) combi on midfield.

Wingers: This an area where i have my questions. A lot of people says Bayern plays a 4141 but i cannot understand why.. they are Always high up the pitch with Robben and Ribery always going inside . the only change they made is the fact that both players are doings less solo action and are more playing for the team. So i would think (in FM term) they both plays as IF in a support role. They cut diagnolly and go behind the defence and try through passes or try to shoot from just outside the box. and sometimes ofc inside the box.

Striker: The striker looks to take the all attacking line.. he drops into space, run a defence, take longshots, go wide .. so a Complete Forward (S) would be perfect for this role..

in term of Team Instruction, i would go like this:

Retain Possession

Shorter Passing

Work ball into Box

Look for Overlap

Much Higher Def Line ( would this work in combi with a Counter mentality ?)

Roam from Positions

Stay on Feet

Use Offside Trap

Lower Tempo

Be more Expressive

This all i want to test it with PSV Eindhoven tonight. What are you tought about it ?

[bababooey]

Cleon, as a Chelsea fan I've been really interested by the style they have built this season under Jose. One thing that I really like is how he has his attacking trio laid out. I'm pretty sure in FM terms they are in the AM strata (AML AMC AMR). However they are such an attacking threat going forward, roaming as well. However they track back a lot too. What do you think the best way to do this in FM is? perhaps using the specific man mark system or using a PI 'close down more'? Maybe even tighter marking?

The best way to do this would be to NOT use AML/AMR, honestly.

If you watch the matches closely, particularly those in which Chelsea are favorites (so, definitely not a match where they are away to City, for instance, so we can get an idea of Mourinho's regular plan) you'll find that the wide midfielders are definitely contributing to defending in a significant manner. Jose has the team defend in 2 banks of 4, or sometimes 1 bank of 4 and 1 bank of 5 depending on the situation (the AMC would be the 5th).

Mourinho often talks about building the team around Oscar. Oscar plays in the AMC slot, although sometimes in the MC slot (like against PSG yesterday). What I can gather from that bit of information is that Jose does not have Oscar playing as a goal threat / secondary striker. Rather, he's got Oscar as a playmaker type (a supporting player) who has others running past him towards goal (the ML/MR generally). Oscar will score goals, naturally, but I don't see him as a secondary striker. It wouldn't make sense because Hazard is clearly the secondary striker, and he plays out wide.

Also. Oscar tends to be all over the place at times, which again, would point to a supporting role IMO. He's given a lot of freedom to roam about and close down and do his own thing. Hazard definitely has a similar amount of freedom, in the sense that he often plays incredibly narrow, switches flanks, roams about, dribbles a ton, etc. etc.

So, if you're trying to set this up in FM here's what it might look like...

This isn't necessarily an EXACT replica of Mourinho's Chelsea right now, but it's pretty close IMO. I believe Ivanovic would be the more attacking wide defender, but this is a SS of my Bayern team, and I have the left defender as the more attacking player because Alaba is better than Lahm at this stage.

Also, both WM's are set to attack and I've given them instructions to: cut inside, dribble more, roam from position, get further forward, and sit narrower. The AMC is told to roam AND close down more. The 2 wide mid's already close down more. Basically what the idea here is, is to have the MLR + AMC cause a crap-ton of trouble for the other team, and encourage a lot of passing and 1-2's and all that jazz. Mourinho isn't necessarily playing a "possession" game at Chelsea, but they do a good job of holding onto the ball and building up play slowly. However they REALLY excel when getting forward on the counter. This set up should be tailored quite well to achieve both of those points.

[css_matt]

It's funny, because when you have a player as good as the likes of Ribery, Robben or Hazard, at least for me I would never think of putting them in the Midfield Strata with WideMidfielder role.

Every cell in my body tells me Hazard should be an Inside Forward on Attack Duty at AML to get the best out of him, but then I read your post and I am like... Damn.

I suppose the system is really important in making players flourish and while Hazard still does seem like an Inside Forward to me I cant really see him flourishing much more in another tactic than that of Mourinho's that you have replicated above.

Does my head in this game!

[bababooey]

I've got Julian Draxler playing at WM for Bayern right now, and he's absolutely dangerous. It's really awesome because using ML/MR gives you defensive stability (to a degree, depending on the role/player) and the attacking movement is great.

[Luizinho]

The best way to do this would be to NOT use AML/AMR, honestly.

If you watch the matches closely, particularly those in which Chelsea are favorites (so, definitely not a match where they are away to City, for instance, so we can get an idea of Mourinho's regular plan) you'll find that the wide midfielders are definitely contributing to defending in a significant manner. Jose has the team defend in 2 banks of 4, or sometimes 1 bank of 4 and 1 bank of 5 depending on the situation (the AMC would be the 5th).

Mourinho often talks about building the team around Oscar. Oscar plays in the AMC slot, although sometimes in the MC slot (like against PSG yesterday). What I can gather from that bit of information is that Jose does not have Oscar playing as a goal threat / secondary striker. Rather, he's got Oscar as a playmaker type (a supporting player) who has others running past him towards goal (the ML/MR generally). Oscar will score goals, naturally, but I don't see him as a secondary striker. It wouldn't make sense because Hazard is clearly the secondary striker, and he plays out wide.

Also. Oscar tends to be all over the place at times, which again, would point to a supporting role IMO. He's given a lot of freedom to roam about and close down and do his own thing. Hazard definitely has a similar amount of freedom, in the sense that he often plays incredibly narrow, switches flanks, roams about, dribbles a ton, etc. etc.

So, if you're trying to set this up in FM here's what it might look like...

This isn't necessarily an EXACT replica of Mourinho's Chelsea right now, but it's pretty close IMO. I believe Ivanovic would be the more attacking wide defender, but this is a SS of my Bayern team, and I have the left defender as the more attacking player because Alaba is better than Lahm at this stage.

Also, both WM's are set to attack and I've given them instructions to: cut inside, dribble more, roam from position, get further forward, and sit narrower. The AMC is told to roam AND close down more. The 2 wide mid's already close down more. Basically what the idea here is, is to have the MLR + AMC cause a crap-ton of trouble for the other team, and encourage a lot of passing and 1-2's and all that jazz. Mourinho isn't necessarily playing a "possession" game at Chelsea, but they do a good job of holding onto the ball and building up play slowly. However they REALLY excel when getting forward on the counter. This set up should be tailored quite well to achieve both of those points.

Thanks for the reply, I've just seen this

I actually read your Chelsea/Mourinho thread that you posted a while back.

I've always wondered about the shout 'Sit Narrower', and 'Stay Wider' for that matter too. Do these apply when in possession or when in the defensive phase? or perhaps both? I also would of wondered that using the PI 'Sit Narrower' for both would make the set-up very messy? Surely the WMs, BBM, AP and CF will all be looking to play in the same sort of area of the pitch, the AMC spot? Also the general guidlines is that you need at least 1 player penetrating the box? Would that be the WMs?

I'm not picking apart your set-up as I'm aware that you know how to play the game I was just wondering your thoughts about what I've said? I'm looking to be corrected

[bababooey]

Thanks for the reply, I've just seen this

I actually read your Chelsea/Mourinho thread that you posted a while back.

I've always wondered about the shout 'Sit Narrower', and 'Stay Wider' for that matter too. Do these apply when in possession or when in the defensive phase? or perhaps both? I also would of wondered that using the PI 'Sit Narrower' for both would make the set-up very messy? Surely the WMs, BBM, AP and CF will all be looking to play in the same sort of area of the pitch, the AMC spot? Also the general guidlines is that you need at least 1 player penetrating the box? Would that be the WMs?

I'm not picking apart your set-up as I'm aware that you know how to play the game I was just wondering your thoughts about what I've said? I'm looking to be corrected

Cheers mate, I'll try to explain myself in a more clear way.

So, basically, I don't know all the answers to your questions. I know that's a horrible answer but I don't know nearly as much as the mod's do, I tend to just do things based on common sense at this point. I do frequently use "guidetofootballmanager.com" because I like how they've detailed basically EVERY single aspect of the game and tactics. It's very helpful.

A few things I can answer though:

- the "play narrower" instruction doesn't seem to cause issues with another player. But this is one of those things you ought to try out for yourself

- The WM's will be penetrating the box, as will the B2B, and the line striker (at times)

- The chelsea tactic posted above isn't something I use, rather, it was just me trying to represent them in the most effective way that I could

For my current set up with Bayern I play a 4-1-4-1 and it's working quite well. Simple is better, and I've basically got it set up so that my team instructions are limited to 2 or 3 options.

Hope that helps.

[llama3]

I've always wondered about the shout 'Sit Narrower', and 'Stay Wider' for that matter too. Do these apply when in possession or when in the defensive phase? or perhaps both?

They apply in both phases - relating to the general shape of the team.

[Luizinho]

Is this the same for the TI? 'Play Wider' and 'Play Narrower'.

[James9]

Cheers mate, I'll try to explain myself in a more clear way.

So, basically, I don't know all the answers to your questions. I know that's a horrible answer but I don't know nearly as much as the mod's do, I tend to just do things based on common sense at this point. I do frequently use "guidetofootballmanager.com" because I like how they've detailed basically EVERY single aspect of the game and tactics. It's very helpful.

A few things I can answer though:

- the "play narrower" instruction doesn't seem to cause issues with another player. But this is one of those things you ought to try out for yourself

- The WM's will be penetrating the box, as will the B2B, and the line striker (at times)

- The chelsea tactic posted above isn't something I use, rather, it was just me trying to represent them in the most effective way that I could

For my current set up with Bayern I play a 4-1-4-1 and it's working quite well. Simple is better, and I've basically got it set up so that my team instructions are limited to 2 or 3 options.

Hope that helps.

what role do you give to your DMC and center forward in your 4-1-4-1 set up. Also I am not sure what roles to give my two other central midfielders.

[bababooey]

The DMC is usually a DM-D and the center forward is usually a CF-S.

It doesn't really matter what I do, though. You've got to form your own team and figure out how you want to play.

[Luizinho]

When I play against a Top Team away from home I normally play with a counter strategy. This is because I know the only way that I'm going to get a result is on the break. However is the defence strategy the better option? With shouts such as 'Pass Into Space', 'Hit Early Crosses' and possibly 'Higher Tempo' would it effectivly be a more conservative option to the counter philosophy?

[bababooey]

When I play against a Top Team away from home I normally play with a counter strategy. This is because I know the only way that I'm going to get a result is on the break. However is the defence strategy the better option? With shouts such as 'Pass Into Space', 'Hit Early Crosses' and possibly 'Higher Tempo' would it effectivly be a more conservative option to the counter philosophy?

It's impossible to say. This all depends on the type of football you want to play. The team mentality does not have to be linked with who is favorite, or who is home or away. Obviously using those kind of strict guidelines can really help people who are unsure of their decisions, but they're not supposed to be hard/fast rules.

For instance. Let's say you've got a really average team. You're playing away to Real Madrid, who you know will attack hard and fast. Does it make sense to soak up pressure for the 90' ? No. They'll break through easily. However, if you were playing a team like Barca that likes to pass the ball around a lot, and not necessarily attack aggressively, then maybe sitting back more is a good option.

But the most important thing, like I said above, is you need to figure out how you want to play. You could literally use the same mentality in every minute of every match. I wouldn't suggest it, but some people do that. It DOES make sense to have an "Away" plan, though. It's common sense I believe. But, this could be just a few tweaks. It doesn't have to be a drastic change to some sort of anti-football tactic. You could literally just change the formation so that you've got 1 DM, or 2 DM's. Or maybe you want to pack the midfield with 5 ? Or maybe you want to use a 3-5-2? See what I mean? It all depends. Sometimes little changes make the biggest difference.

One last example, which hopefully will help you out..

I'm playing as BAyern in the year 2016. We are a monster of a team. However, sometimes even smaller clubs can give us trouble. Recently, in a cup match against Augsburg, we gave up a goal within 5 minutes. A really dumb goal. I didn't panic. I recognized their shape was horribly risky (4-2-4, like, 2 CM's, then an AMLR + 2 strikers). So, we decided to increase our tempo, and switch from a 4-1-4-1, to a 4-4-1-1. By doing this we placed a playmaker in behind their CM's, and in front of their CD's. This gave this fits. We were able to control the game simply because of that change of shape. With the original shape, the 4-1-4-1, we were more vulnerable to their attacking play because we didn't have much ability to hold onto the ball. After changing shape, we were able to keep the ball in areas that were harder for them to win it back. Thus, we ended up kicking the crap out of them to the tune of 4 straight goals.

Hope this helps.

[James9]

Breaking Down The Walls

There are quite a few options I could use when facing stubborn sides who sit deep and are hard to break down. I could be relentless and do attack after attack in the hope that sooner or later I force them into a mistake and that they buckle under the constant pressure. This approach tends to have more shots but less accuracy because the higher you play and the more aggressive you are then the more cramped the final third becomes.

Another option would be to try and force them up the pitch more by going counter attacking and hope they had to push on more. You’d be surprised how many times this can actually work due to the opposition becoming more adventurous. The down side is they will still probably be solid at the back and set up well, normally narrow too. So it can still be tricky.

Or you can take the approach I’ve just used against Port Vale;

Port Vale lined up with a bog standard 4-4-2 so I knew I’d find space behind their midfield and with the half back I had the numbers advantage in the middle. So what I decided to do was switch from the attacking strategy to a control one so I wasn’t positioned too high and removed the push higher and faster tempo shouts so I could actually play at a slower pace. This meant that I’d be deeper than normal which in turn gives me more space to work with. Space and movement is the key for beating any side who sits deep and is happy to defend against you. For a bit of extra security I also used the retain possession shout and the exploit the middle one too. This was so I could impose myself on the game from a central position and force Port Vale’s midfield duo to mark my players which shouldn’t be an issue because the half back should be more like a central midfielder in this game so I’d always have a free man in the centre.

This automatically creates space without me doing anything because Vale’s midfield either drop off and sit deep to protect their defence and stop runners from my midfield. Which would mean my central duo would be more like AMC’s and would be in great positions to feed the wide men the ball, especially on my right side were the wide midfield cuts inside and supports, this would create an overlap on the inside.

Or they push up and try and hassle my midfield pairing which creates space behind them for the free midfielder or wide midfielder to run into. It could go either way and I’ll have to see how it goes during the game itself.

You can see once the game starts how deep I am compared to normal. The yellow line is roughly where we normally take up position. You can see already that my two central midfielders have space which means they can dictate the game and hopefully influence it more.

This screenshot shows Port Vale have 8 men back in this move. It also highlights my central three and the triangle they create giving whichever one of them on the ball a passing option. It might look like I don’t have any options but I actually do because any kind of long/direct/through ball now would split Port Vale open and put them on the back foot. It would be hard to defend against too because it would catch them out and make the defenders flat footed because they are still atm and 2 of my players are actually in movement. So I’d say this gives me the advantage and edge if the ball does reach one of the highlighted options.

The players actually took none of those options though and saw something which I didn’t which resulted in this goal;

That’s the deep lying playmaker, advanced playmaker and the half back all combining and doing exactly what I wanted them to do. I actually think this goal highlights how important it was for the player to have space to run into and make movement from deep. If I was more attack minded for this game then the space he ran into before the pass for the striker would have been congested and wouldn’t have existed.

The first real time Vale committed men forward moments after the goal above, this happened;

Do you see why I always bang on about space and movement? It’s so vital and important for winning games that the strikers have support, especially if you use a lone striker. Its a quick counter attacking move but it exposed their MC’s when they pushed on too far. It just allows me to dictate through the centre.

The third goal I scored came from a corner.

I’m not set up to create lots of chances but instead the tactic relies on creating quality good chances. You’ll get more of an idea when I post more about this at a later date.

The game played out as you’d expect, I had lots of possession, a few good chances and restricted them to just blocked shots.

The individual players actually had lots of passes between themselves;

And the heat maps looked like this;

I know some of you might be disappointed by this post and was expecting more maybe, but this is all the changes I did. I believe I play the game in a very simplistic way and don’t make drastic changes. My threads always seem more detailed than the way I actually play the game because I’m trying to translate how I play across. But I play at a very high speed and I truly believe that less is more when it comes to minor tweaks based on what is happening on the pitch.

The changes I made for this game took about 10 seconds to do and I just thought about it logically and looked at were I could do the damage from and how I can take advantage of that. Hopefully it comes across okay and you can see and understand why I did the changes, I’ve tried to explain it the best I can but it doesn’t always come across right when trying to write down the way you think

Cleon would you use the same set up when you are facing a technical superior team with fast strikers and wingers. i know you mentioned your set up for teams that park the bus. However I would like to know if you go counter and drop the defensive line when playing a team with pace or do you use the same approach and set up for the teams that park the bus and teams who have pace in attack and are technically better than your team

[Cleon]

It all depends on what is actually happening in the game. I don't have a 'set plan' that I use and it differs all the time how I'd approach it based on what is happening on the pitch. It's very rare that I drop/add shouts normally though as I prefer just a simple strategy change instead.

[bababooey]

You may benefit from keep a VERY small group of instructions from the beginning, like.. 3 or 4. Or less. Sometimes I play with 2 instructions and then just add whatever I need during a match. I may finish the game using 6 or even 8. It all depends.

The point is you want to keep things simple until you know EXACTLY what you're doing and how things work. I keep things simple in the beginning because A. im on FMC and I can make drastic changes without any issues, and B. it helps me figure out what is going on from the get-go, and then I can make the changes (if needed) in a more effective way.

[lam]

Hi all,

I'd like to offer some tips if I may, they are aimed mostly at those struggling with the game, though I hope some others might take something away from them too.

1. This tactic, especially the roles and duties will not work for all teams and even if it does, it may not work for a certain player selection within your team.

Example: Spurs have one of the lowest aggression stats in the league (15th) thus playing a style of football where you are expected to chase down the ball aggressively and continually doesn't really suit them. However there are players in the squad where it works well. Many of the others will not want to challenge for the ball and will not go for a 50/50.

Conclusion: You may not always want to pick you most skilled players in your club, but pick the most skill players for the tactic (or pick another tactic).

2. When choosing roles and duties try and work out what your player is going to be doing. Is he moving about a bit? When is he moving about? Is he leaving space behind/to the side of him? Do you want someone covering or moving into that space.

Once this is established, LOOK FOR IT IN GAME. This is paramount. Just because you expect it to happen, it doesn't mean it will. And, if it doesn't, try and work out why.

Example: in Cleons setup, the MR cuts inside and creates space for the WBR to move into/beyond. This rarely happens on the left side.

Conclusion: Watch the bloody games. (so many don't or watch in highlights mode. That only works when you know what you're doing will pan out somewhere close to what you want).

3. Watch a game (or two) in full..... go on, I dare you! It can be quite fascinating and much can be gleamed from it.

Example: Watching a game in highlights will only show events. Your WBR losing the ball on half of his passes and the opposition failing to do anything with it does not equate to an event....... but I'm sure you'll agree.... it can be a ground-breaker.

Conslusion: Not watching the game only works for those that really know what they are doing. You only get to know what you;re really doing be watching a lot!.

4. It's all the about the WHY....

Example: Your FC has a really poor header conversion. Well, it's not his fault he is small, it's that damned winger that keeps trying to land them on his head when he is upfront on his own.

Why is my striker unable to get on the end of whipped in crosses to the near post, well with anticipation of 12 and pace/acceleration of 9, he needs the winger mentioned above, he needs them on his head or to him.. not somewhere he is unable to reach.

Why can't my damned winger just get a cross in! Well, he is slow, can not dribble and has no balance, but is great at crossing. So STOP telling him to get to the byline, tell him to cross early when noone else is around to interfere.

The reverse of the above works for a pacey but poor crosser. If he can get to the byline and whip a cross into a busy box, who cares if his crossing is 12 rather than 15 when the ball ends up in the net.

Conclusion: Contrary to belief, your players will try to do what you ask of them. Make sure you're asking them to do the right thing!

Regards

LAM

[jukilo]

Cleon,

I understand why you choose Very Rigid in this approach. But this is what confuses me the most. I want to play a game based on Capello, Trapattoni, Mourinho and Simeone ideas. From what I've learned, and other stuff, they play a very compact game, very difficult to break down, where every player knows exactly his role. This seemed to be ideal for rigid or even very rigid philosophies. However teams play like a solid unit where the team is the main thing (from what I've seen and learned there aren't many specialist roles, if any) and everyone plays for that and players need to have a strong collective responsibility. This will point me to fluid or very fluid.

With this in mind, my questions are:

1- If I set Very Rigid or Rigid, where everyone have their role and stick to that, can I play without specialist roles? With these in mind, if I select more generic roles like BBM/CM/BBM/DM(S), will my players be too static and don't offer much movement between the lines? I learned that, if this systems work, 1/2 players moving between the lines are essential (supporting DMC, winger cutting inside, etc). Will this happen if I pick that fluidity?

2- On the other hand, if I select Fluid or Very Fluid, will the team keep the shape? I mean this is perfect, I guess, to remain compact and make everyone attack and defend which is one of the points of the approach. But I don't see Mourinho, Trap or Capello in the dressing room say'in: "just go out there and play on your own. You don't have any tactical responsibility". Lol

Could you point me in some direction? I've read THOG guide about this but would like to read your opinion. You seem to teach how to fish and don't give the fish. That's exactly what I want. Want to understand the "why's". And fluidity confuses me.

[HTC]

My squad is something like this.

Right full back, quick but 12 in positioning marking tackling (21 though with good potensial). Another one the same.

Left full back good attack attributes, good tackling, bad positioning and marking. Another one, descent in defence, bad in attack.

DCs good positioning marking, tackling etc, mediocre (10) decisions, concentration, quickness.

4 DMs in squad with descent defensive atts (pos, mark, tackle), descent (12-13) passing and technique and quick (13-14). Bad (10) composure, decisions, creativity and strength (for position, 12).

4 quick wingers. Good pace, acc, dribbling, crossing. Bad finishing. One of them best stats in all those, but 10/10 workrate/teamwork

Two typical Treqs, 14 passing technique, creativity.

2 strikers, both descent technically, both mediocre (13) finishers, one explosive, one mid-quick (13 pace, 11 agility and accelaration) but hard worker and strong.

---------------------Generally

Mediocre (12) consistency to most of my players, half of them good in handling pressure (13-14)

Very good (14) aggression, determination, bravery, accelaration, pace, agility, fitness, stamina, work, teamwork

Descent anticipation (12)

Bad (10) composure, conentration, decesions.

Tactic most suitable, either a 4-2DM-2MRL-1-1 or 4231, or 41221.

Do you have any suggestions/advice for me, for one tactic were i will be favorite (in my league lets say my squad has 120-130 current ability and all others exept two has 80-100) and one for when i am underdog in Champions/Europa League, based on my players pros and cons?

[Cleon]

My squad is something like this.

Right full back, quick but 12 in positioning marking tackling (21 though with good potensial). Another one the same.

Left full back good attack attributes, good tackling, bad positioning and marking. Another one, descent in defence, bad in attack.

DCs good positioning marking, tackling etc, mediocre (10) decisions, concentration, quickness.

4 DMs in squad with descent defensive atts (pos, mark, tackle), descent (12-13) passing and technique and quick (13-14). Bad (10) composure, decisions, creativity and strength (for position, 12).

4 quick wingers. Good pace, acc, dribbling, crossing. Bad finishing. One of them best stats in all those, but 10/10 workrate/teamwork

Two typical Treqs, 14 passing technique, creativity.

2 strikers, both descent technically, both mediocre (13) finishers, one explosive, one mid-quick (13 pace, 11 agility and accelaration) but hard worker and strong.

---------------------Generally

Mediocre (12) consistency to most of my players, half of them good in handling pressure (13-14)

Very good (14) aggression, determination, bravery, accelaration, pace, agility, fitness, stamina, work, teamwork

Descent anticipation (12)

Bad (10) composure, conentration, decesions.

Tactic most suitable, either a 4-2DM-2MRL-1-1 or 4231, or 41221.

Do you have any suggestions/advice for me, for one tactic were i will be favorite (in my league lets say my squad has 120-130 current ability and all others exept two has 80-100) and one for when i am underdog in Champions/Europa League, based on my players pros and cons?

You're asking the wrong person. I use the same tactic regardless of favourite or underdog and make changes based on how the game is going once it kicks off and not before. For me its pointless trying to guess how a team might play, I rather wait and make the changes when I know exactly how the opposition are playing and not before.

[mikcheck]

Cleon can you give me your opinion about my attack please? It's something like this logical?

AML - IF support

AMCL - AM attack

AMCR - TQ

AMR - IF attack

ST - CF support

Thank you.

[Cleon]

Cleon can you give me your opinion about my attack please? It's something like this logical?

AML - IF support

AMCL - AM attack

AMCR - TQ

AMR - IF attack

ST - CF support

Thank you.

Anything can work, what you should be asking is if you use that shape what roles do the other 5 players need and how will they get the ball from defence to attack or midfield to attack? Also as you'll have 5 advanced attacking players this will leave you short on counters etc, you need to fit the rest of the shape to cope with this. So you need to look at both defensive and attacking side of things and not just look at it from 1 direction

[mikcheck]

Thank you for your reply Cleon.

Yes you're right. I just wanted to know if, in your opinion, it's balanced in terms of players attacking the box and players creating. I then use 3 defenders (dl,dc,dr) and 2 DMC (defensive midfielder and dlp, both with defend duty)

[Cleon]

Thank you for your reply Cleon.

Yes you're right. I just wanted to know if, in your opinion, it's balanced in terms of players attacking the box and players creating. I then use 3 defenders (dl,dc,dr) and 2 DMC (defensive midfielder and dlp, both with defend duty)

I don't know if its balanced because they would need the ball to be able to be effective, that's why the players behind that 5 are equally important. Hence why I couldn't directly give an answer, sorry . In the positions you've posted (the defence etc) who is going to link the defence to attack? How will the DMC's get the ball to the AMC's if they are defensive? Who's going to link play, where is the movement going to come from?

If the front 5 don't get the right kind of supply and support then no matter how good they are they'll struggle. Currently from what you've posted it would all rest on the Treq in being the creator and link player which is fine. But what happens when he has a bad game or is marked out of the game? Then where does the link up play come from? I can't see many options in all honesty in the set up you are wanting to use.

[mikcheck]

Thanks Cleon. I understand. Do you think changing the defensive midfielder to a support duty could help with that?

[MrMcTomato]

Hey the team instructions pics don't seem to be coming up on the post can someone post them please?

[arron52]

Hey the team instructions pics don't seem to be coming up on the post can someone post them please?

+1 , I think the pic has been deleted

[gpassosbh]

Hey the team instructions pics don't seem to be coming up on the post can someone post them please?

I need this pic too.

[Cleon]

Nothing I can do about the picture as I didn't remove it. If I load up FM anytime soon I'll re-add it. But there not important anyway as the idea of the thread is to give you the tools to create your own tactics and not copy mine, so my screenshot is pointless and not helpful to any of you.

[arron52]

Thanks Cleon. Could you tell me, when playing a match do you watch it on full game? If not which setting?

[Cleon]

Thanks Cleon. Could you tell me, when playing a match do you watch it on full game? If not which setting?

It all depends. If I'm playing properly and creating something then full matches. If its working fine then just the first 15 minutes. I did a thread about it quite some time ago, the images no longer work though but you'll get the gist still;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/305067-The-Full-90-Minutes-What-I-Do

[liam9sufc]

hey cleon, what team instructions are you using? would like to see how your system compares to my 4141 but the image doesnt show up it says it has been removed?

thanks

[Cleon]

Read 3 replies above maybe?

[Teutomatos]

When creating a tactic you need to have an idea of how you want it to play and have an idea of the kind of football you want to see. Without knowing this you’ll feel a bit lost and struggle to have success. Everyone needs a starting point of some kind whether its an idea, tactical philosophy or a style of play. Having this thought out will make it possible to build around this and give you a starting point....

It's false Cleon. Totaly et definitvly since the beguinning of this game.

You never made what you want, but only that you can.

The really first step is, to calibrate the players capacities. Expecting find corresponding formation, tactical, stratégical modéle to plug in it.

This is the foundation.

And the game missing this point by its lack of inside utilities. And we don"t care about the usual easy false and generic supposedly "reality".

Ask to coach Vahid for example ( in reality ) if he's not evaluate his opportunities and limitations. Be sure you'll get a kick.

It's not really fun, its a kind of embarrassement for the most. But it's the rule.

It could be fun, to observ mentaly of our anciliaries robots and the lack of theirs recommendations, looks like sometime "real" human's limitations.

You know the assistants preferences which deserve any help in that's occurence.

But is it really fun ?

Could be a fundamental philosophical discuss about Aristotélician's rules of drama in the gameplay. I conceed. It's another story.

I elude the fitness managing, rules of rotation and the indescribable confusion and constraint about the new way of training.

The playable part is only to manage tactical regulation during the match.

But there's an essential condition for that. For a good respons of statistic, and to know the right move to apply in this context, it's evident that the first rule is needed.

If you don't, you ll never know if the player or the team, operating fall down in statistics by : their own over exploited limitations ( to take the foot in the carpet ) or ... by the opposite tactical design. ( base for a correctiv apply )

And no more, opportunities to manipulate the weak part of adversity.

Anyway, the game is like it is and it's not your fault, but for introducing ... This is a really bad message to say, "you choose or you want, you have an idea". Because we have a very little chance to watch "the kind of football we like to see".

Rationally we have only to choose the right calibration design in our contextual limitations for expecting manipulate something later, in an kind of effectiv positiv way.

This is essential. Even for a beguinners, and perhaps especially.

I elude too the usual philosophy of emptiness " everyone play a game like he want", "have no time to loose for calibration" etc ... blablabla

Regards

[WillGC]

Can somebody help me? I am playing as liverpool and my main tactic is 4231 deep with sterling out wide and henderson on the bench. However when i create an alternative tactic whch is 41212 without any wingers eg sterling, when is witch back to my 4231 tactic henderson is out wide and sterling is on the bench. How do i fix this?

[llama3]

Do you have pre-saved team selections by any chance?

[tyro]

I have just re-read this thread again because each time you learn something new, or get a new idea, or have another angle to look at. I have actually restarted (what will probably be my last save for FM14, and maybe the first that will go past season 2) a save on the full version (played FMC quite a bit) to use the analysis tool.

This thread just helps in pin point what to look out for, how to approach "problems" and try to implement your own philosophy in the game. I still have problems "spotting" space and movement or what exactly to change but I am trying to train myself to see it. I often pause the game to see the attack/defense transitions and can more often than not figure out what changes would be good to turn things around or to improve the tactic.

The "new" thing that I got from reading through the thread again is actually letting a game play out and then watching it as a replay. For some reason I always missed that part. It does make sense to review how you played after and improve things. One mistake I have been making is to adjust the tactic immediately after a bad game - ok, standard did not work, so I switch to control to achieve my passing game, for example. I now try to see more, why it did not work, instead of saying X didn't work, now let's try Y.

For FM15 I hope that they add more explanations as to what the different settings change and maybe give more flexibility on the pitch (as to the formation). I used to play with AML/R always but have this year been more inclined to use a 4-4-1-1 instead of a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-1-4-1 instead of a 4-1-2-2-1. Despite that I am still not that comfortable playing "star" players in a position in which they are just "competent" or worse instead of being a natural in the position. Yes, you can train them, but that is just a hassle. I would hope they loosen up on the strictness of the positions and maybe let duties/roles dictate whether it is a AML or ML or making both positions natural.

But back to the topic, I just wanted to say again, what a great thread, and what I think, is really useful, are the examples. How are changes done in the game and why. This is how you learn the most and can be more confident in your own tactics set up.

[Luizinho]

Cleon,

Was just thinking that playing with an Attacking strategy coupled with 'Much Higher Tempo' & 'Much Higher Defensive Line' would be an overkill? I would of thought that the players who had at you disposal would constantly give the ball away with a practically maxed out Tempo setting? Also the defensive line would be exploited quite often?

[Cleon]

I have just re-read this thread again because each time you learn something new, or get a new idea, or have another angle to look at. I have actually restarted (what will probably be my last save for FM14, and maybe the first that will go past season 2) a save on the full version (played FMC quite a bit) to use the analysis tool.

This thread just helps in pin point what to look out for, how to approach "problems" and try to implement your own philosophy in the game. I still have problems "spotting" space and movement or what exactly to change but I am trying to train myself to see it. I often pause the game to see the attack/defense transitions and can more often than not figure out what changes would be good to turn things around or to improve the tactic.

The "new" thing that I got from reading through the thread again is actually letting a game play out and then watching it as a replay. For some reason I always missed that part. It does make sense to review how you played after and improve things. One mistake I have been making is to adjust the tactic immediately after a bad game - ok, standard did not work, so I switch to control to achieve my passing game, for example. I now try to see more, why it did not work, instead of saying X didn't work, now let's try Y.

For FM15 I hope that they add more explanations as to what the different settings change and maybe give more flexibility on the pitch (as to the formation). I used to play with AML/R always but have this year been more inclined to use a 4-4-1-1 instead of a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-1-4-1 instead of a 4-1-2-2-1. Despite that I am still not that comfortable playing "star" players in a position in which they are just "competent" or worse instead of being a natural in the position. Yes, you can train them, but that is just a hassle. I would hope they loosen up on the strictness of the positions and maybe let duties/roles dictate whether it is a AML or ML or making both positions natural.

But back to the topic, I just wanted to say again, what a great thread, and what I think, is really useful, are the examples. How are changes done in the game and why. This is how you learn the most and can be more confident in your own tactics set up.

Thank you

Cleon,

Was just thinking that playing with an Attacking strategy coupled with 'Much Higher Tempo' & 'Much Higher Defensive Line' would be an overkill? I would of thought that the players who had at you disposal would constantly give the ball away with a practically maxed out Tempo setting? Also the defensive line would be exploited quite often?

Why does it have to be overkill and why would the defensive line be exploited? Why do you think this?

The roles and duties I use all work together well and I use a DMC which means the D-line will naturally be lower anyway even when pushing high up. Plus you have to remember as I've stated in some of the match examples for those who've read the thread that I change strategy too during games based on what's happening or for those sides who tend to sit back and defend. Pretty sure I spoke about this in the Port Vale example.