Creating A Tactic - Design, Create and Maintain

[Noel Gallagher]

They are, playing wider also increases passing length. This is one of the great things about the TC, no more illogical passing fails because of sliders not being compatible.

Thank you

I wish we could have some visibility though for things such as this. If I was to set an attacking strategy then the passing would be fairly direct anyway. However, using the Team Instruction 'More Direct Passing' would increase how direct the passing is - but by how much? Would we be going into the realms of long ball?

[Steve Odom]

Thank you

I wish we could have some visibility though for things such as this. If I was to set an attacking strategy then the passing would be fairly direct anyway. However, using the Team Instruction 'More Direct Passing' would increase how direct the passing is - but by how much? Would we be going into the realms of long ball?

This isn't how you should look into those things, imo. You should think of the strategies as being logically in every way. Like you said, if you imagine an attacking tactic, it will be more direct. The team instructions enhance that indeed in order to give your tactic some more flavor. The 'how much' question isn't all related to the old sliders, which were confusing to a certain extent..

Jsut do the logical strategy thinking first, then enhance it with some 'flavor' and the visual feedback will follow when watching a few games.

[Noel Gallagher]

This isn't how you should look into those things, imo. You should think of the strategies as being logically in every way. Like you said, if you imagine an attacking tactic, it will be more direct. The team instructions enhance that indeed in order to give your tactic some more flavor. The 'how much' question isn't all related to the old sliders, which were confusing to a certain extent..

Jsut do the logical strategy thinking first, then enhance it with some 'flavor' and the visual feedback will follow when watching a few games.

You are right. I suppose it's all those years with having references and sliders causing my way of thinking to be stuck

[bieritarier]

great read, especially the breaking down an opposition part.

Playing as Bayern I actually am also trying to emulate the way they play. after quite a few frustrations I had found a 4-1-2-2-1 that worked well, but still had a few flaws, especially on the defensive end (wingers not tracking back!), so I opted for a 4-1-4-1 for the new season.

The way I see Bayern is:

wingers drop deep to get the ball to launch counters, but generally are very attacking and high up the pitch.

The striker drops deep and mostly plays simple drop offs to the midfielders/goes for long balls and gets into the box for crosses.

central defenders have a key role, recycling possession and immediately launching new attacks.

the middle 3 are interesting: in general you have one player holding the fort, one guy linking up play a bit further up the pitch (or a lot further up the pitch if the opposition is really deep) and one guy really getting int the box a lot.

The "full backs" are arguably the most important position in the system though. They are virtually everywhere on the pitch providing support/passing options.

Bayern plays a rather mixed passing game, but the long passes mostly come form the back 3 (DCs and DM) while they're trying to create overloads and pass the ball around swiftly to create holes in the final third.

you can't emulate the way the Bayern full backs work in the game. so I decided to keep them as FB(s), and wider to provide the width (classic setup I'd say). The wingers are WM(a) with get further forward. The striker is a DLP(s). The movement of a DLP is more what Mandzukic does for Bayern than the DF role.

leaves the midfield trio. I've tried many combinations. Bayern are quite fluid in what they do here, soemtimes the DM is the primary playmaker, sometimes it's the more defensive CM, and then there are cases where the formation really looks more like a 2-2-3-3 with the wing backs pusing up into the AM strata, the wingers into the Forward strata and the DM and one of the MCs holding the middle. can also morph into a 3-1-3-3 with the centre backs spreading wide and the DM staying between them.

Anyway, I opted initially for a DM(d), a DLP(s) and an AP(a). Problem. The AP(a) is not aggressive enough. in my mind. It can work against teams playing with 2 DMs to draw these guys out and create space for the striker and "inside forwards", but it also means that pressing higher up the pitch is pretty hard to achieve since the playmakers have a huge tendency to drop very deep and leaving the midfield to the opponent.

So I changed to a DLP(s) and CM(a). You might guess that didn't really work since there was too little link up in midfield, to the DLP(s) became an AP(s).

so the setup is now

-----------DLP(s)----------

---------------------------

WM(a)-AP(s)-CM(a)-WM(a)

-----------DM(d)----------

FB(s)--CD(d)-CD(d)--FB(s)

-----------GK(d)----------

shorter passing (winter break now, I'm toying with BPDs now to emulate the play of Bayerns defenders!) - short passes are still their primary goal!

work ball into box (players too keen to shoot even after update without it)

hassle opponents

run at defence (bayern does look to use any space they're given to run with the ball, in particular the wings, but also the more offensive minded central midfielder as well as Mandzukic when roaming to the wings)

pass into space (primary goal is to stick a ball into the vertical channels)

be more expressive (I want the team to ignore the instructions if they find a better solution and can trust the decision making of the majority of the team. This ensures the team still play quick and direct if it's the best option, i.e. a counter attacking move or take a long shot if in a good position to do so)

tempo is at standard. Reason being that Bayern, while looking to create chances with through balls is a patient team that does not force the ball into the box unless there's a chance for reward. In fact, they often abort attacks and pass backwards to reset the attack instead of just firing the ball forward and hope for the best. Not playing with a frantic speed also helps with getting the full backs involved in the attack.

I have not touched width since FM fails to replicate the enormous width Bayern plays with anyway and it seems to unbalance the team in the middle a bit.

Also, no pushing up. The matches I've seen (a lot), Bayern does not push up to the half way line at all cost. They need the central defenders to stay a little deeper so that they have time an good vision of what's going on ahead of them, pushing too high up is counter productive. Don'T get me wrong, they will venture into the opponents half against very deep teams, but still trail the attacking force by quite a margin. The attacking or control strategy make them push up quite high anyway. In fact, my DM is too high up the pitch for my liking most of the time. I'd prefer to have him position a bit closter to the central defenders (somewhere in the middle between the MCs and the DCs).

Strategy: Attacking, sometimes control if I see there's no space to exploit/ my MCs are picked up by the opponents defensive line.

Philosophy: balanced since it allows for the biggest mentality splits in midfield (needed to push the wingers higher up) an defence (same for the full backs)

[Steve Odom]

You are right. I suppose it's all those years with having references and sliders causing my way of thinking to be stuck

On a related note Cleon mentioned this :

One of my family members is new to the game and never played any other version due to them being a bit young. But he is doing fine because he doesn't think in sliders terms because he's never had them so knows no different. He's confused about the odd thing due to the lack of documentation but I firmly believe he already has a better grasp of the game due to his way of thinking compared to someone who is still holding onto sliders. This isn't aimed at you btw but is in response to the opening sentence. And we went through a similar things when wibble wobble was removed too.

So due to them not having any old reference point the current system seems normal and he's able to make changes based on how he thinks football is played and not what the old sliders say you should play it etc. So you could argue that some new players actually find the transition easier.

Maybe all old school FM-managers are a bit handicapped.

[brugi82]

Cleon You are currently in League 1 where you are probably favorite in every game, so playing attacking is not a big issue... How would you adjust this tactics if you were relegation candidate playing against better teams?

[Cleon]

Cleon You are currently in League 1 where you are probably favorite in every game, so playing attacking is not a big issue... How would you adjust this tactics if you were relegation candidate playing against better teams?

I'm not favourite for every game at all and there are 5 bigger clubs than me in League One. I'd also not change anything even if I was relegation candidate because then I wouldn't be emulating the system I wanted to in the very opening post. And playing attacking against teams who sit back is a big issue as I highlighted in one of the posts if you read the actual thread? I'm more open to counter attacks and allow the opposition a lot more space.

[Cleon]

great read, especially the breaking down an opposition part.

Playing as Bayern I actually am also trying to emulate the way they play. after quite a few frustrations I had found a 4-1-2-2-1 that worked well, but still had a few flaws, especially on the defensive end (wingers not tracking back!), so I opted for a 4-1-4-1 for the new season.

The way I see Bayern is:

wingers drop deep to get the ball to launch counters, but generally are very attacking and high up the pitch.

The striker drops deep and mostly plays simple drop offs to the midfielders/goes for long balls and gets into the box for crosses.

central defenders have a key role, recycling possession and immediately launching new attacks.

the middle 3 are interesting: in general you have one player holding the fort, one guy linking up play a bit further up the pitch (or a lot further up the pitch if the opposition is really deep) and one guy really getting int the box a lot.

The "full backs" are arguably the most important position in the system though. They are virtually everywhere on the pitch providing support/passing options.

Bayern plays a rather mixed passing game, but the long passes mostly come form the back 3 (DCs and DM) while they're trying to create overloads and pass the ball around swiftly to create holes in the final third.

you can't emulate the way the Bayern full backs work in the game. so I decided to keep them as FB(s), and wider to provide the width (classic setup I'd say). The wingers are WM(a) with get further forward. The striker is a DLP(s). The movement of a DLP is more what Mandzukic does for Bayern than the DF role.

leaves the midfield trio. I've tried many combinations. Bayern are quite fluid in what they do here, soemtimes the DM is the primary playmaker, sometimes it's the more defensive CM, and then there are cases where the formation really looks more like a 2-2-3-3 with the wing backs pusing up into the AM strata, the wingers into the Forward strata and the DM and one of the MCs holding the middle. can also morph into a 3-1-3-3 with the centre backs spreading wide and the DM staying between them.

Anyway, I opted initially for a DM(d), a DLP(s) and an AP(a). Problem. The AP(a) is not aggressive enough. in my mind. It can work against teams playing with 2 DMs to draw these guys out and create space for the striker and "inside forwards", but it also means that pressing higher up the pitch is pretty hard to achieve since the playmakers have a huge tendency to drop very deep and leaving the midfield to the opponent.

So I changed to a DLP(s) and CM(a). You might guess that didn't really work since there was too little link up in midfield, to the DLP(s) became an AP(s).

so the setup is now

-----------DLP(s)----------

---------------------------

WM(a)-AP(s)-CM(a)-WM(a)

-----------DM(d)----------

FB(s)--CD(d)-CD(d)--FB(s)

-----------GK(d)----------

shorter passing (winter break now, I'm toying with BPDs now to emulate the play of Bayerns defenders!) - short passes are still their primary goal!

work ball into box (players too keen to shoot even after update without it)

hassle opponents

run at defence (bayern does look to use any space they're given to run with the ball, in particular the wings, but also the more offensive minded central midfielder as well as Mandzukic when roaming to the wings)

pass into space (primary goal is to stick a ball into the vertical channels)

be more expressive (I want the team to ignore the instructions if they find a better solution and can trust the decision making of the majority of the team. This ensures the team still play quick and direct if it's the best option, i.e. a counter attacking move or take a long shot if in a good position to do so)

tempo is at standard. Reason being that Bayern, while looking to create chances with through balls is a patient team that does not force the ball into the box unless there's a chance for reward. In fact, they often abort attacks and pass backwards to reset the attack instead of just firing the ball forward and hope for the best. Not playing with a frantic speed also helps with getting the full backs involved in the attack.

I have not touched width since FM fails to replicate the enormous width Bayern plays with anyway and it seems to unbalance the team in the middle a bit.

Also, no pushing up. The matches I've seen (a lot), Bayern does not push up to the half way line at all cost. They need the central defenders to stay a little deeper so that they have time an good vision of what's going on ahead of them, pushing too high up is counter productive. Don'T get me wrong, they will venture into the opponents half against very deep teams, but still trail the attacking force by quite a margin. The attacking or control strategy make them push up quite high anyway. In fact, my DM is too high up the pitch for my liking most of the time. I'd prefer to have him position a bit closter to the central defenders (somewhere in the middle between the MCs and the DCs).

Strategy: Attacking, sometimes control if I see there's no space to exploit/ my MCs are picked up by the opponents defensive line.

Philosophy: balanced since it allows for the biggest mentality splits in midfield (needed to push the wingers higher up) an defence (same for the full backs)

A great post

Your DLP did you give him and individual instructions? I almost went for a DLP but the lack of pressure he puts the DC's under by closing them down was a real down side for me because this is something that is part of Bayern's play when Mandzukic plays and the only way I could replicate this was with the DF position

Luckily though it works out well for me and he scores quite a few goals about a goal a game atm.

I have really poor wingers though so they don't play how I want them too atm. I can't wait for end of season to bring some new ones in as this will improve my play by a lot if I bring more suited players into he club. The future is looking really good for us atm

[Cleon]

Hmm not sure what else to add to this thread now if I'm being honest.

[allyc31]

Maybe just keep us up to date with how your game is going?

Doesn't have to be too detailed or anything.

When i'm in work, and i can't play football manager, reading about it is the next best thing and so far this has been a great way to scratch that itch.

[richeh88]

great thread. After really struggling with the ME changes to tactics I think I'm getting somewhere now. Playing as Man utd and doing pretty well ( early days thou)

Rafael jones vidic evra

Carrick

Valencia Kagawa felleni Nani

Rooney

Things ive changed are Rooney to a DLF and sometimes Fellani to a BWM-D. Ive also added distribute to Defence and playout of defence.

I seem to win ALOT of corners sometimes over 15 a game. Ive added further up the pitch to Nani and Valencia.

Cleon Is retraining positions important? I like would like to play Welbeck at ML but hes red in that position. Also is it worth training players to become natural in said positions kagawa for example? even if they are accomplished.

[Cleon]

great thread. After really struggling with the ME changes to tactics I think I'm getting somewhere now. Playing as Man utd and doing pretty well ( early days thou)

Rafael jones vidic evra

Carrick

Valencia Kagawa felleni Nani

Rooney

Things ive changed are Rooney to a DLF and sometimes Fellani to a BWM-D. Ive also added distribute to Defence and playout of defence.

I seem to win ALOT of corners sometimes over 15 a game. Ive added further up the pitch to Nani and Valencia.

Cleon Is retraining positions important? I like would like to play Welbeck at ML but hes red in that position. Also is it worth training players to become natural in said positions kagawa for example? even if they are accomplished.

Personally for me, retraining is one of the biggest things I do on FM and I always try and have natural players (by retraining them until natural) in the positions. It's just a preference of mine really.

[shirajzl]

Hmm not sure what else to add to this thread now if I'm being honest.

More examples of spotting the in-match issues and consequent decisions.

I feel that's the part of the game a lot of users still struggle with. Creating a balanced starting tactic is fine, but making in-game decisions is something entirely different.

[Cleon]

I only created this save to play around to be able to create this thread really. I can do more examples that's no problem but it might be better suited to a new thread maybe? Then I can do it across a wider range of games rather than just the Sheff Utd save.

[Steve Odom]

I only created this save to play around to be able to create this thread really. I can do more examples that's no problem but it might be better suited to a new thread maybe? Then I can do it across a wider range of games rather than just the Sheff Utd save.

There are pro's anf cons for both options. It would be great to go mote in depth about this here so the discussion keeps focused about creatin/adapting of tactics. The downsideis ofcourse that you'd need to keep this save going, which could hinder your, also excellent, Santos thread. Whatever your decision though, I'd follow the thread to pick up bits and pieces..

[shirajzl]

I only created this save to play around to be able to create this thread really. I can do more examples that's no problem but it might be better suited to a new thread maybe? Then I can do it across a wider range of games rather than just the Sheff Utd save.

If you're willing to do that, sure, a new thread with examples from a wider range of games and situations would definitely be better.

[voe2012]

More examples of spotting the in-match issues and consequent decisions.

I feel that's the part of the game a lot of users still struggle with. Creating a balanced starting tactic is fine, but making in-game decisions is something entirely different.

This would be very helpful. Maybe in the form of posting a clip + analysis and discuss on what's actually told by stats & the clip

[bdixon]

What I'd really appreciate is something along the lines of a flow chart of the match. As when things occur in my game, I make, what I think are logical changes but these changes appear to make my team play worse and we concede even more.

[Cleon]

What I'd really appreciate is something along the lines of a flow chart of the match. As when things occur in my game, I make, what I think are logical changes but these changes appear to make my team play worse and we concede even more.

How would this help though? Sure you'd see the changes I make but not sure how this would help you in your game because if you are already making what you class as logical changes then they should work.

I need to do stuff that changes the way people think about the game and the way they view it. If I give all the answers to how I change stuff then people will always be trying that rather than thinking for themselves if that makes sense? I need to do something that makes the user think more about the changes he could make and the options available. Maybe I could create a scenario or something and post it as a video clip and ask people how they think a certain change would work and change the game and then show them what happened when the change was made.

The downside to this would be I could only show one change and not all the options due to not been able to play the same scenario over and over.

[Steve Odom]

I need to do stuff that changes the way people think about the game and the way they view it.

I agree with that 100%, though it is hard because the moment you or one of your colleague-geniuses post a tactic, people seem to mindlessly replicate it.* That's not where the great strength in this thread lies, imo. It is all about learning to analyze the game and using your common sense to spot and solve any problems that arise. It is tactical education at world class level for FM. That's what I learned reading in this forum for a good few years now, and the only reason I'm here still. That, and annoying senior members of course.

This is what I said in an earlier remark to Cleon, and I stand by it.

Awesome!...

...The fact you describe in such detail how you could create space is fantastic and this thread will be -again, in conjunction with wwfan and Llama's threads- the reference point for anyone asking help.

What I meant was: a tool, not plug-'n-play!

*I'm not talking about post made here, I'm talking in general.

[Cleon]

I agree with that 100%, though it is hard because the moment you or one of your colleague-geniuses post a tactic, people seem to mindlessly replicate it.* That's not where the great strength in this thread lies, imo. It is all about learning to analyze the game and using your common sense to spot and solve any problems that arise. It is tactical education at world class level for FM. That's what I learned reading in this forum for a good few years now, and the only reason I'm here still. That, and annoying senior members of course.

This is what I said in an earlier remark to Cleon, and I stand by it.

What I meant was: a tool, not plug-'n-play!

*I'm not talking about post made here, I'm talking in general.

Thanks

Me and wwfan (and now RT) tend to give helpful answers but are vague with our suggestions at times, we can give a more direct answer but we'd rather ask questions instead so the person asking for help has to think about things and then more often than not, they tend to start seeing the glaring issues they have. It's much better for is if this happens rather than giving people the answers because we feel they'll benefit more long term.

[Steve Odom]

wwfan is more mysterious than you however.

But indeed, the mods in this forum are all of top class, that's why I keep referring to those three guides to anyone having tactical problems: they are all the tools you need to do it yourself. The fact they learn you 'how to fish' instead of 'force-feeding' the same fish is the reason why the level in this community rises every year, imo. I see a lot of threads, too many to read, out here where people post some very interesting concepts about tactics. It is even a shame so many of them eventually will be buried at the third page of this forum.

If you compare the level of discussion I see here to some other fora around, .. Well let's say, even comparing them does this one dishonor.

[bmack]

Me and wwfan (and now RT) tend to give helpful answers but are vague with our suggestions at times, we can give a more direct answer but we'd rather ask questions instead so the person asking for help has to think about things and then more often than not, they tend to start seeing the glaring issues they have. It's much better for is if this happens rather than giving people the answers because we feel they'll benefit more long term.

That is the same pedagogy I use for teaching creative critical thinking via studio arts as a university professor!

Please know that showing simple examples of how you identify and then attempt to address issues is a very effective teaching method. Posts #4 and #5 do that really well. I don't feel like those posts tell me what to do. I feel like they tell me how you assess a situation and consider options. This encourages me to do my own assessments and consider my own options.

Thanks, it really makes the experience more fun.

[yonko]

Thanks

Me and wwfan (and now RT) tend to give helpful answers but are vague with our suggestions at times, we can give a more direct answer but we'd rather ask questions instead so the person asking for help has to think about things and then more often than not, they tend to start seeing the glaring issues they have. It's much better for is if this happens rather than giving people the answers because we feel they'll benefit more long term.

I sense Guided Discovery methodology from you and wwfan.

[JoshLCFC]

Long balls and through balls killing me using this, changed one CB to 'cover'... Will let you know how it gets on.

[Cleon]

Long balls and through balls killing me using this, changed one CB to 'cover'... Will let you know how it gets on.

No need to update because you've clearly missed the point of the thread and what its about if you are using the formation in the opening post.

[JoshLCFC]

Just a nibble

[Falahk]

great thread. After really struggling with the ME changes to tactics I think I'm getting somewhere now. Playing as Man utd and doing pretty well ( early days thou)

Rafael jones vidic evra

Carrick

Valencia Kagawa felleni Nani

Rooney

Things ive changed are Rooney to a DLF and sometimes Fellani to a BWM-D. Ive also added distribute to Defence and playout of defence.

I seem to win ALOT of corners sometimes over 15 a game. Ive added further up the pitch to Nani and Valencia.

Cleon Is retraining positions important? I like would like to play Welbeck at ML but hes red in that position. Also is it worth training players to become natural in said positions kagawa for example? even if they are accomplished.

to be honest I think you should consider using different players in central midfield, since all 3 you use have comes deep to get ball ppm

[Fieldy_21]

For what it's worth, here's my opinion. I definitely think you should continue this thread in some way or another. I found it incredibly helpful where you mentioned what you were seeing in game and gave a screenshot to help illustrate as although it makes it blindingly obvious, i do struggle to see what's going on apart from general "god, we are getting battered here" or "great, I'm 3-0 up I'll go make a bevvy, I'll worry about the second half later." So when you mentioned that you weren't making the opposition defend and your two cm's were tied up by the oppositions flat 5 and how you changed it, I began thinking of how to implement that style of thinking in my game.

If more people used threads like this to implement ideas and theories into their own unique tactics rather than mindlessly copying a tactic as they see someone else gets success then I'm sure they would enjoy the game a lot more. I have created a striker less tactic, and I'm having a great deal of difficulty with it, but this thread has been really useful as it's taught me a bit about how other people think and what they see whilst in game, and different ideas on how to deal with it. Personally, I don't want to find myself coming on the forums and saying "can someone fix this for me", I want to learn how to spot the problem myself and bounce ideas off of other people on how to fix it, so that I can develop a sound enough knowledge that I can develop weird and wonderful tactics without fear of defeat or the sack as I'll know that in game I'd be able to notice what's going wrong and how to fix it.

I may have a different opinion of how to fix a problem than someone else. But surely we should all see a problem the same way? This is where I struggle...identifying where something is going wrong and why I'm not consistent. Therefore, posts such as this thread has helped teach me how to spot problems, to see more examples would be fantastic!!

[bieritarier]

A great post

Your DLP did you give him and individual instructions? I almost went for a DLP but the lack of pressure he puts the DC's under by closing them down was a real down side for me because this is something that is part of Bayern's play when Mandzukic plays and the only way I could replicate this was with the DF position

Luckily though it works out well for me and he scores quite a few goals about a goal a game atm.

I have really poor wingers though so they don't play how I want them too atm. I can't wait for end of season to bring some new ones in as this will improve my play by a lot if I bring more suited players into he club. The future is looking really good for us atm

Thanks for the flowers. I'll take those

No extra instructions. He's quite good at putting pressure on both central defenders,, forcing the ball out to the full backs or long hoofs. IT plays a bit like the pressing under Don Jupp cine the CM(a) presses high up the pitch (he has the close down more instruction, as does the AP(s)), so Mandzukic and the CM(a) white often hassle the back 4 while the wingers sit deeper and kill off passing lanes to the wingers or wider centre mids. Really looks like a 4-1-3-2/4-2-2-2 when the opponent has the ball quite often.

but the strikers are in fact more effective with the backwards press on the opp DMC/deep MCs. Actually that is IRL also what Mandzukic is best at.

Btw, Lewandowski is really behaving quite similar in the DLF(s) role - I'm really happy with that part.

I only created this save to play around to be able to create this thread really. I can do more examples that's no problem but it might be better suited to a new thread maybe? Then I can do it across a wider range of games rather than just the Sheff Utd save.

I second the thought about spotting and reacting to stuff you notice. The interesting part is really not spotting the issue, but spotting the cause of the issue. Many people, including myself, struggle with that part. In particular knock on effects, i.e. the "team dynamics" certain role combinations create and how this can lead to issues.

Example: in my 4-1-2-2-1 I have one issue that I know the cause of, but it was by chance that I discovered it. The tactics features a DLP(s) in the MCL and an AP(a) in the MCR slot. wide AM slots are IF(a). at opposition goal kicks I always saw that my AML was sticking quite close to the full back while my AMR dropped quite a fair bit backwards. when I swapped the MC roles around (AP left, DLP right) the IF issue reversed, so it is actually the AP rile causing this. Game probably decides that the AP(a) will press higher up the pitch so the IF is needed for cover a bit deeper.

I think, without pointing out the solution, this goes to show how important the right player roles in the right places are to achieve the overall goal. pressing opponents effectively at goal kicks is pretty much impossible with the setup I described. I lived with it since everything else was fine, but if someone really is chasing a goal late in the game and wants to play high up, the playmaker roles don't really seem to be a good choice....

It's stuff like this I'd like to see more of. And seeing these changes / spots on a tactics which you understand since the build up process was well explained will probably help people with identifying what to look out for and how to possibly fix it without giving up the base idea / unbalance the team.

Sort of a Cleondiola thread. Here's how we play. And here's what we do to make sure we can play that way even if the opponent is trying to abuse our weaknesses.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

This is a lovely topic.

Cleon, I'd like to see your approach to a top heavy formation. For example; a 4(flat)-2(MC)-3(AMC/R/L)-1

And curiously, I find this topic just as I finish a game where I've been experimenting with a 4-1-4-1 myself I did play AMR/L's though and I'm not entirely convinced I got it to work well. I think I'm resigned to just settling on bog standard MR/ML players thesedays(!) that having been said... An AMC with a FWD is brutal at times.

On that note, I'd love to see if you're able to get a diamond DMC/AMC working with wingers, it's a hell of an old day tactic and one I've avoided as I fear the midfield would be empty to be quite honest.

[Cleon]

This is a lovely topic.

Cleon, I'd like to see your approach to a top heavy formation. For example; a 4(flat)-2(MC)-3(AMC/R/L)-1

And curiously, I find this topic just as I finish a game where I've been experimenting with a 4-1-4-1 myself I did play AMR/L's though and I'm not entirely convinced I got it to work well. I think I'm resigned to just settling on bog standard MR/ML players thesedays(!) that having been said... An AMC with a FWD is brutal at times.

On that note, I'd love to see if you're able to get a diamond DMC/AMC working with wingers, it's a hell of an old day tactic and one I've avoided as I fear the midfield would be empty to be quite honest.

A top heavy formation would work pretty much the same as this one. You just need to understand what you are creating and then look at who will be the creative players, who will be the support and who will score the goals. Then when you have a basic idea ask yourself what happens if your more creative player gets marked out of the game, will you still have enough natural creativity in the shape and roles you use in the rest of the side? if the answer is no then you know you've got an issue

A wide 4-4-2 diamond? I was using one of those recently with Boca for a thread I may or may not do about the enganche

[Cleon]

For what it's worth, here's my opinion. I definitely think you should continue this thread in some way or another. I found it incredibly helpful where you mentioned what you were seeing in game and gave a screenshot to help illustrate as although it makes it blindingly obvious, i do struggle to see what's going on apart from general "god, we are getting battered here" or "great, I'm 3-0 up I'll go make a bevvy, I'll worry about the second half later." So when you mentioned that you weren't making the opposition defend and your two cm's were tied up by the oppositions flat 5 and how you changed it, I began thinking of how to implement that style of thinking in my game.

If more people used threads like this to implement ideas and theories into their own unique tactics rather than mindlessly copying a tactic as they see someone else gets success then I'm sure they would enjoy the game a lot more. I have created a striker less tactic, and I'm having a great deal of difficulty with it, but this thread has been really useful as it's taught me a bit about how other people think and what they see whilst in game, and different ideas on how to deal with it. Personally, I don't want to find myself coming on the forums and saying "can someone fix this for me", I want to learn how to spot the problem myself and bounce ideas off of other people on how to fix it, so that I can develop a sound enough knowledge that I can develop weird and wonderful tactics without fear of defeat or the sack as I'll know that in game I'd be able to notice what's going wrong and how to fix it.

I may have a different opinion of how to fix a problem than someone else. But surely we should all see a problem the same way? This is where I struggle...identifying where something is going wrong and why I'm not consistent. Therefore, posts such as this thread has helped teach me how to spot problems, to see more examples would be fantastic!!

Thanks mate

Hows the strikerless going? It's the most frustrating thing to create on FM at times and to get right but I also feel its the most rewarding

[Cleon]

Thanks for the flowers. I'll take those

No extra instructions. He's quite good at putting pressure on both central defenders,, forcing the ball out to the full backs or long hoofs. IT plays a bit like the pressing under Don Jupp cine the CM(a) presses high up the pitch (he has the close down more instruction, as does the AP(s)), so Mandzukic and the CM(a) white often hassle the back 4 while the wingers sit deeper and kill off passing lanes to the wingers or wider centre mids. Really looks like a 4-1-3-2/4-2-2-2 when the opponent has the ball quite often.

but the strikers are in fact more effective with the backwards press on the opp DMC/deep MCs. Actually that is IRL also what Mandzukic is best at.

Btw, Lewandowski is really behaving quite similar in the DLF(s) role - I'm really happy with that part.

I second the thought about spotting and reacting to stuff you notice. The interesting part is really not spotting the issue, but spotting the cause of the issue. Many people, including myself, struggle with that part. In particular knock on effects, i.e. the "team dynamics" certain role combinations create and how this can lead to issues.

Example: in my 4-1-2-2-1 I have one issue that I know the cause of, but it was by chance that I discovered it. The tactics features a DLP(s) in the MCL and an AP(a) in the MCR slot. wide AM slots are IF(a). at opposition goal kicks I always saw that my AML was sticking quite close to the full back while my AMR dropped quite a fair bit backwards. when I swapped the MC roles around (AP left, DLP right) the IF issue reversed, so it is actually the AP rile causing this. Game probably decides that the AP(a) will press higher up the pitch so the IF is needed for cover a bit deeper.

I think, without pointing out the solution, this goes to show how important the right player roles in the right places are to achieve the overall goal. pressing opponents effectively at goal kicks is pretty much impossible with the setup I described. I lived with it since everything else was fine, but if someone really is chasing a goal late in the game and wants to play high up, the playmaker roles don't really seem to be a good choice....

It's stuff like this I'd like to see more of. And seeing these changes / spots on a tactics which you understand since the build up process was well explained will probably help people with identifying what to look out for and how to possibly fix it without giving up the base idea / unbalance the team.

Sort of a Cleondiola thread. Here's how we play. And here's what we do to make sure we can play that way even if the opponent is trying to abuse our weaknesses.

That's a great spot about the AP a, I wonder how many people have noticed the same on their own games, I doubt its that many tbh.

You make a great point about spotting the cause of the issue too, I think this is the main issue people have but for me its also the hardest thing to try and write down and explain. Most of what I do feels like common sense of the logical thing that's causing an issue but I understand not everyone will think the same way, so at times I might see something and think 'they don't wanna read about that because it's so simple' yet when in fact its probably the simple things I should write about.

[bdixon]

Quick question about spotting and changing via the analysis tab, in a game I've recent played after 45 mins I have had almost 30 crosses of which only 7 were completed. Yes I'm playing a similar tactic to the one Cleon posted but he states crossing isn't part of his game. So how would I go about reducing crosses, I cant seem to find cross less button. Or is this a bug??

[Cleon]

Quick question about spotting and changing via the analysis tab, in a game I've recent played after 45 mins I have had almost 30 crosses of which only 7 were completed. Yes I'm playing a similar tactic to the one Cleon posted but he states crossing isn't part of his game. So how would I go about reducing crosses, I cant seem to find cross less button. Or is this a bug??

Look why the players are trying to cross and understand why by viewing the clips back. Then you can fix it.

[richeh88]

after using the 4141 formation for 16 games W10 D3 L3 I want to try and score more goals. I dont feel that the DF is supported enough always seems to be isolated.

would this change leave me open to attacks?

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Cleon]

after using the 4141 formation for 16 games W10 D3 L3 I want to try and score more goals. I dont feel that the DF is supported enough always seems to be isolated.

would this change leave me open to attacks?

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Your DF didn't score? Mine has around a goal a game on every save I use it. Maybe you should have looked at the supply and see why he wasn't getting the supply he needed?

The screenshot above I don't really see how the midfield will link to the strikers that well.

[bdixon]

Ok, well he is a WB(A) so crossing is part of that role. Most crosses tend to come from byline and are being intercepted of the 12 he attempted only 2 completed. Now my initial thoughts would be to attempt to reduce crossing, can this be done via player instructions? or to change his role to WB(S), this would be because my WB(S) on the right side attempted only 3 and 1 lead to a goal.

[Cleon]

Ok, well he is a WB(A) so crossing is part of that role. Most crosses tend to come from byline and are being intercepted of the 12 he attempted only 2 completed. Now my initial thoughts would be to attempt to reduce crossing, can this be done via player instructions? or to change his role to WB(S), this would be because my WB(S) on the right side attempted only 3 and 1 lead to a goal.

You've still not said why he is crossing all the time though, even if its part of his role. There must be a reason and a person he is aiming for? Find this out and you can solve the issue. Why is the cross being blocked/intercepted. You need to know the exact reason.

[richeh88]

Your DF didn't score? Mine has around a goal a game on every save I use it. Maybe you should have looked at the supply and see why he wasn't getting the supply he needed?

My DF is Rooney and has 13(7) 5 gls 5 Asts

[Cleon]

My DF is Rooney and has 13(7) 5 gls 5 Asts

Make use of the thread and do what is intended with it and find out why he lacks supply then. All my DF's are poorer than Rooney in terms of attributes but are a lot more involved than it seems on your game.

[bdixon]

I can't determine why, he has options to pass to the AP(A) is 10 yards away. The crosses are being intercepted by a defender at the near post.

[Steve Odom]

My DF is Rooney and has 13(7) 5 gls 5 Asts

Why not try and analyze a game like Cleon did. I'm positive you and a lot of others could benefit from an elaborate post by you on that subject. Don't worry about making wrong assumptions in that post. We all learn from mistakes, don't we?

I would very much be interested in continuing the discussion like that. It would mean Cleon doesn't need to continue the current save because this one could be updated still with data from diffrent contributors. Maybe it will benefit the Santos project too, which I'm eager to see continued.

[tkg]

I can't determine why, he has options to pass to the AP(A) is 10 yards away. The crosses are being intercepted by a defender at the near post.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing why. That is where you are trying to get to. Personally i think diving straight into an analysis won't necessarily help you. There are so many factors involved that if you haven't yet learnt all the concepts at play then your chances of deciphering what you see from an analysis is slim.

Personally what i would do is list things it might potentially be first. For each of those possible causes think of a single change you could make and ensure sure you know why you are making that change before you do so.

Think of it like a scientific experiment. There are many variables at play so to gain any understanding of "why" something is happening you have to go through the possible variables one at a time, giving them enough time to determine their impact.

Your list may start with things such as:

Possible reason: WB (A) is instructed to cross often

Possible solutions to test: Change WB (A) to WB (S) to reduce crossing instructions, Change WB (A) crossing from byline to deep as their defence may be too organised by the time your wb reaches byline

Possible reason: Build up play is too slow which is resulting in a packed defence by the time WB joins the attack in a wide position

Possible solutions to test: More direct passing, higher tempo, Deeper play maker with more direct passing options

Possible reason: WB becomes rather isolated in final third

Possible solution: Change winger/wide midfielder instructions to those you may feel keep him closer.

Possible reason: WB is choosing near post crosses more often due to instructions to drill or mixed

Possible solution: Change instruction to far post or target man

Possible reason: No one in the box or those that are have little chance of actually winning the cross (due to attributes)

Possible solution: Use taller, more capable striker etc.

Put a greater emphasis on your longer term understanding of the game that your short term desire to win that match. Make a change, know why you made the change and stick with that change for long enough to draw a conclusion.

[Letissier1980]

I can't determine why, he has options to pass to the AP(A) is 10 yards away. The crosses are being intercepted by a defender at the near post.

Mate, I would be interested in seeing how you overcome this problem. For me this is the reason I come on here. Please give it a go. The mods won't just tell people the answers but get you to think. A perfect way of doing it in my opinion. There is a saying 'you can give a man a fish and he can feed his family for a night, or you can teach him to fish and he can feed his family for the rest of his life' I think I 'm going off topic a bit but I'm just trying to say give it a go because there are so many people who will appreciate it

[tkg]

Mate, I would be interested in seeing how you overcome this problem. For me this is the reason I come on here. Please give it a go. The mods won't just tell people the answers but get you to think. A perfect way of doing it in my opinion. There is a saying 'you can give a man a fish and he can feed his family for a night, or you can teach him to fish and he can feed his family for the rest of his life' I think I 'm going off topic a bit but I'm just trying to say give it a go because there are so many people who will appreciate it

The problem with this approach, and the way that many of these threads go, is that it doesn't necessarily take into account people at each stage of the learning process. People tend to learn at first by copying what they see. Over time they begin to learn concepts through the act of copying until they reach a stage that they can transform those copied ideas to suit their own requirements. Eventually people grasp enough of the subject to combine ideas to form new ones, resulting in new approaches.

The issue i see here a lot is that people who are at the copying stage are expected by others to perform at a higher level of ability that they are capable of.

It is like a novice guitar player learning a new song. He can watch videos and use materials to copy the song and play it but that doesn't mean he understands it. He couldn't tell you why those chords progressed the way they did, or that a particular chord movement resulted in a key change which was a tool utilised by the writer to invoke a certain reaction in the listener.

People at the early stages of learning will see a thread like this and simply copy Cleon's tactics and instructions as they see it. They will copy cleon by using the analysis tab after a match and try to spot things as she does, and they may indeed spot things, such as excessive crossing. That does not mean, however, that they are yet in a position to be able to do anything with that information.

What people in that position need is something solid to grasp at, at least until they understand the concept enough to transform someone's idea into their own. Telling someone to look into "why" something is happening may actually do more harm than good.

People at an early stage of development should embrace copying others. Copy every tactic you see, and try out every change that people suggest. This kind of learning should also be supported and encouraged. If someone simply says "figure it out for yourself" then they are left in limbo.

[Cleon]

People at an early stage of development should embrace copying others. Copy every tactic you see, and try out every change that people suggest. This kind of learning should also be supported and encouraged. If someone simply says "figure out for yourself" then they are left in limbo.

I'm sorry but no just no. You say people aren't yet ready and in a position yet then encourage them to copy everything they see? I couldn't disagree more, people need to move away from copying what they see and start thinking for themselves. Copying what you see others doing and what they've done doesn't teach anyone anything.

People need to learn how/what to spot when issues are going wrong then work on fixing them. Identifying the issues is key.

If people want to take the other route fine but please don't bring the discussion in here because that's not what this thread is for.

Always so much negativity from people when someone does a thread, its highly annoying and puts people off contributing myself included/

[Steve Odom]

It is like a novice guitar player learning a new song. He can watch videos and use materials to copy the song and play it but that doesn't mean he understands it. He couldn't tell you why those chords progressed the way they did, or that a particular chord movement resulted in a key change which was a tool utilised by the writer to invoke a certain reaction in the listener.

If I may borrow that analogy for a moment. What can a beginner learn from watching an advanced guitarist play his songs? Nothing more than wow, he's good! Unless that advanced guitarist also explains a few tricks: it's the explanation that's important, nothing else. What Cleon does here is exactly that. He explains it all in a way a beginner can understand it. The individual song here isn't important, it's how you play that needs to be thought. This is exactly why people don't learn anything from copying things blindly, especially if there 's two different teams involved in FM. It would be like a right handed person learning from a left handed guitarist by using the exact same grip of the guitar.

What you need to do if you're teaching is give people a basic grasp of what they need to understand while provoking an interest in the subject: wwfans thread does that. When they have learned the basics, they should be told how to experiment while giving them simple knowledge about the subject: that's where Llama3's thread comes in. Finally they should be thought how to increase their knowledge and how to be critical of themselves while doing so, there you have this thread.

The learning by copying is most prevalent when people arrive in a new setting where they will look around how others behave. Copying is a strong way to learn, but only in behavior-patterns.

[Fieldy_21]

Thanks mate

Hows the strikerless going? It's the most frustrating thing to create on FM at times and to get right but I also feel its the most rewarding

Not gonna lie, pretty horrifically tbh haha. I have a slight feeling the way I've set my team up isn't really condusive to playing strikerless. I did leave all team instructions blank from the start of the season just so I could get a feeling of what could be changed. I am starting to get the feeling there is something fundamentally wrong with either the formation or my player roles. particularly defensively and the DMC.

I seem to be having a lot of games where i'd be 0-0 or 1-0 up and then I'd go counter with 10 mins to go as they were attacking and i don't have faith in the ability of my team to keep the ball and we will go and lose. But there are an equal amount of games that I will lose 1 or 2-0. I think I have two main problems from what I can see, but it's difficult to confirm. I think my hands are quite tied by the fact I insist upon using a "front 3" of shadowstriker-enganche-shadow striker. Secondly, I think my back 4 and dmc combination is causing me to be quite open. I am currently using two wing backs on automatic duty with a regulation defensive midfielder - defend.

I initially thought to solve me getting torn apart I could change my wing backs to full backs, but then as they are the only players out wide, i thought I might start to lack width and become one dimensional through the middle, a team playing a 4231 with two dmc's would shut me out instantly. Secondly I thought of maybe changing my defensive midfielder to a half back to provide some defensive support whilst the wing backs are bombing forward. I need to have a look through some of my old matches tonight so that I can try and work out why i was conceding goals, scoring wasn't really a problem, but conceding was.

I desperately want to get it right though, I could go back to a regulation 442 or 4231 as I know what I'm doing with those but i think it will be more beneficial for me to learn and adapt this in order to try and get it right and to win stuff with this.