Man Utd selling off all their star players?

[sagajagan]

Just started a full game for the first time (usually play FMC) as Bromley, but I'm subscribed to Man Utd since I'm a fan, and in just over one year ( ie. 3 transfer windows) they've sold Anderson to Juventus, Fletcher to PSG, Hernandez and Valencia to Real Madrid, Buttner to Norwich, Chris Smalling to Tottenham, Cleverly to Chelsea, Henriquez to Lyon, Evra to PSG, Young to AC Milan, and Fabio and Welbeck to Tottenham. All were for well below their market value despite many not being transfer listed (I think only Anderson and Fabio were). In the mean time, the only notable reinforcements United have brought in are David Alaba and Yohan Cabaye (who they then sold to Real Madrid a season later). What's going on? Is Football Manager Fergie intent on turning United into a feeder club? Sort of irks me a little bit as a United fan to see the game totally destroy them.

[tomtuck01]

It's a game. Once you start your save the football world takes on a life of its own. Get over it.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

The only ones that really stand out to me as unlikely are Smalling and Cleverley. Hernandez might want to go if he's not getting games i guess.

[Veg1ta]

yeh and most likly replaced with players of similar quality or better, dont see the problem here.

[av3ry]

From what I can gather on my save they swapped half their team for Bakaray Sagna

And Cleverley is at PSG...

[sagajagan]

yeh and most likly replaced with players of similar quality or better, dont see the problem here.

Nah, as I said, the only notable signings they've made are David Alaba and Yohan Cabaye, the latter they later fobbed off to Real Madrid after two seasons. They did sign Gaston Ramirez since I made the OP, but still in three seasons they've now pawned off £132 million worth of players, while spending just £53 million.

[scott MUFC]

because of the debt i would think.

Alaba is superb though

[Herbert Fandel]

How are they playing? in terms of league position

[TopToffee]

While I agree they should be investing more to replace the players sold, I wouldn't describe ANY of those individuals sold as "star players"

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

While I agree they should be investing more to replace the players sold, I wouldn't describe ANY of those individuals sold as "star players"

In the out-of-the-box Man U squad, Fletcher, Valencia and Evra would be starting 11 players and Hernandez, Smalling and Welbeck would be on the bench (so that’s 33% of the matchday squad)

Cleverley and Henrique are probably rotational players of the future.

Anderson, Buttner and Fabio I’d expect to see leave. Young could fit in here too.

There’s definitely 8 of those 12 that shouldn’t/wouldn’t be sold.

[DanSpur]

In mine they turn rubbish after Fergie leaves. Entirely plausible, of course. They don't sign good players and in fact they sign very obscure and average players, they sell their good players, and their youth is poor. They go from 1st/2nd to 7th/8th within a season of Ferguson leaving. They make strange choices in manager, too. Russians, Mexicans, Spanish managers from midtable Liga clubs. As I said, entirely possible but there always has been an issue with AI squad building. Seems a long way for a club like Man Utd to fall.

[Lawlore]

I think you just described Liverpool in real life, Dan.

[BiggusD]

I took control over United in 2020 as a tactical test and they had a good first eleven. Not fantastic but top side good. The rest of the very flimsy squad was rubbish and they haven't won anything for ages, being 3rd in the league and in the CL quarter finals.

They had £95m to spend and well over 500k to spare on their wage budget.

I could make them have two world class players in each position with the money I got as a new manager in March + the money for the next season. That would be pointless, though, since "squad rotation" in FM AI terms mean something like "play the 2nd choice in the FA cup and 3rd choice in the Liga Cup". The squad building "engine" is only designed for first team + backup squads, and the backup only plays in case of an emergency. This is likely what caused the "exodus" at Old Trafford. 11 Players played 60 matches, the rest played 3-4 if they were lucky.

[fmFutbolManager]

Just started a full game for the first time (usually play FMC) as Bromley, but I'm subscribed to Man Utd since I'm a fan, and in just over one year ( ie. 3 transfer windows) they've sold Anderson to Juventus, Fletcher to PSG, Hernandez and Valencia to Real Madrid, Buttner to Norwich, Chris Smalling to Tottenham, Cleverly to Chelsea, Henriquez to Lyon, Evra to PSG, Young to AC Milan, and Fabio and Welbeck to Tottenham. All were for well below their market value despite many not being transfer listed (I think only Anderson and Fabio were). In the mean time, the only notable reinforcements United have brought in are David Alaba and Yohan Cabaye (who they then sold to Real Madrid a season later). What's going on? Is Football Manager Fergie intent on turning United into a feeder club? Sort of irks me a little bit as a United fan to see the game totally destroy them.

I sold:

Buttner, Welbeck, Hernandez, Fletcher, Clevelery, Nani and Anderson to name a few. The real world ceases to exist in game.

[sagajagan]

How are they playing? in terms of league position

1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, now 6th in my current season just gone Christmas. Have drawn four games in a row to compliment losing three in a row. Not liking the downward projectory.

[Herbert Fandel]

"squad rotation" in FM AI terms mean something like "play the 2nd choice in the FA cup and 3rd choice in the Liga Cup". The squad building "engine" is only designed for first team + backup squads, and the backup only plays in case of an emergency. This is likely what caused the "exodus" at Old Trafford. 11 Players played 60 matches, the rest played 3-4 if they were lucky.

I agree with this diagnosis and would like it reviewed for FM 14.

[DanSpur]

I think you just described Liverpool in real life, Dan.

Still better than they fare in the game, administration within 3 years on mine. Very weird.

[AcidBurn]

On my save they sold Evra, Anderson, Carrick, Cleverly and Rio in the first three seasons as well as released some older players, in that time they signed Baines, Bale, Lloris and Friedel, 2nd season they signed Badstuber and Sandro, 3rd season they got Howedes and Jack Wilshere. They went onto never finish outside the top three until the 2031 season. The OP's case does seem a bit strange but everyone game is different.

[av3ry]

Managers wise, they replaced Sir Alex Ferguson with Pep Guardiola. Won the last two Champions Leagues, was in 11th in the Premier League this December and just sacked Guardiola and hire Jose Mourinho in the middle of the CWC interestingly.

Premier League being very tight plus United's trip to Japan ultimately cost Guardiola his job it appears.

[Barkermush]

Hernandez always gets sold for a cheap offer on my saves.

(I assume it's because they have alot of good players in the striking position, so the AI is more than happy to offload strikers)

[cyborgscouse]

I wouldn't class any of them as top players so I don't see the problem in it.

[Albion Rover]

In my save on FM 09, it is now 2027 / 28 season, and Man U are in 17th place in the Championship, and the club are still in debt...they have been in hte Championship for about 10 years. They were in the playoffs for a few years, but now are mostly mid table, and to be honest, I can see them in League 1 in a few years...oh dear...hopefully it doesnt' happen in real life

[Mattias333]

Even after Fergie retires the madness continues on mine similar to the original posters problems.

I've taken over Norwich City who are fighting off the usual relegation battle. Its Xmas 2016, the window opens as we hit 2017 and the clubs got a massive striker shortage due to injuries & African Cup of nations duty. I noticed RVP was transfer listed despite scoring 8 goals from 17 starts. (not brilliant but not awful either after only half a season). Hes 33 years old and starts are still amazing apart from the obvious decline in stamina and speed.

He was interested in a permanent deal and I also signed him but opted against it deciding he wanted to much and signed him on loan instead. Id understand it if he had majorly declined or been injury prone as his stats suggest...or even if he wasnt in the Utd line up. But his stats are still amazing, hes played virtually every game in 1st half of season and hasnt been injured once (cursed him and fully expect him to be injured next game).

1st game against Arsenal....goal. Thats what I needed!

[Herbert Fandel]

I think part of it is that for some reason in FM a large amount of real players decline reallly really really quickly.

I'm in 2019 mid-table with Derby. I have Fellaini at 3 stars, Kagawa at 2.5, Nick Powell at 3.

I had Ashley Young aged 30 at 2.5 stars in League 1 with Crewe in the same save.

So really, with the exception of a few superstars, the way to succeeed in the game is to flog all your real players for big money and start getting in newgen players.

In my save Man Utd won th 2019 EPL. Their only real players are De Gea, Hamsik, Alaba, Muller and Phil Jones, with Rooney occasionally off the bench.

All the others are gone or rotting in the reserves, but they have all the world's best newgens.

So maybe the reason so many clubs appear to become selling clubs is because they realise that the only way to succeed beyond about season 3 in this game is newgens, and pursue that policy.

I would like it if in future there was at least enough variation to make my observations not as true as they are just now.

[Albion Rover]

Oh dear...this evening, while playing I noticed in the news feed that Man U have gone into administration, and been docked 10 points, leaving them just 4 points above the drop zone, with about 7 games to go in the Championship. Even if they do survive, relegation is very likely next season, as they have a transfer embargo, and are planing to sell players in summer. League one beckons for Man U.

[macca72]

Oh dear...this evening, while playing I noticed in the news feed that Man U have gone into administration, and been docked 10 points, leaving them just 4 points above the drop zone, with about 7 games to go in the Championship. Even if they do survive, relegation is very likely next season, as they have a transfer embargo, and are planing to sell players in summer. League one beckons for Man U.

If Carlsberg did forum posts...

[Herbert Fandel]

Oh dear...this evening, while playing I noticed in the news feed that Man U have gone into administration, and been docked 10 points, leaving them just 4 points above the drop zone, with about 7 games to go in the Championship. Even if they do survive, relegation is very likely next season, as they have a transfer embargo, and are planing to sell players in summer. League one beckons for Man U.

In FM09.....

Back in that time wasn't there a fear that the Glazers actually would cause such a scenario?

If Carlsberg did forum posts...

They'd be 4 years out of date?

[Albion Rover]

Yes, that fear about Man U did exist in 2009. However, I am not the fastest player of FM, so we will have no idea for a long time about what happens to Man U this season (2027 / 8) and beyond.

Interestingly, though, Pompey never went into financial meltdown. They got relegated from the premier league last season, and this season they are absolutely running away with the championship title. They will be back up with us at QPR next season.

[tomtuck01]

I think part of it is that for some reason in FM a large amount of real players decline reallly really quickly.

Changing star ratings isn't necceassarily a sign of player decline as the star ratings show how your scouts/coaches compare a player to those at your own club/in the league you participate in.

[Herbert Fandel]

Changing star ratings isn't necceassarily a sign of player decline as the star ratings show how your scouts/coaches compare a player to those at your own club/in the league you participate in.

Yes, I know. I just used them as indicative as I don't use any cheat sofware. That is why I specified I was mid-table with Derby. My squad shouldn't be stronger than Man Utd's on opening day, so its clear the players have declined properly.

Ashley Young, Cleverly, Tom Ince, etc playing in League 1 is sign their decline is real and not just relative.

But at any club I ever play at in FM, real players decline and newgens are the best players at all levels, apart from a group of say ~100 players at the top of the game who cost 10s of millions of pounds to buy, unlike newgens.

It means that after 3 or 4 years I just don't buy real players, just newgens, and it all seems a bit forced to me. I haven't have a save yet when 'a youthful Club X' side isn't dominating the leagues the play in under my management.

It would be nice to have a save where my team wasn't all u-24 and made up. Obviously if I kept going in the same saves then I could have my players ~30 and made up, but I get bored of it before then.

[BiggusD]

Yes, I know. I just used them as indicative as I don't use any cheat sofware. That is why I specified I was mid-table with Derby. My squad shouldn't be stronger than Man Utd's on opening day, so its clear the players have declined properly.

Ashley Young, Cleverly, Tom Ince, etc playing in League 1 is sign their decline is real and not just relative.

But at any club I ever play at in FM, real players decline and newgens are the best players at all levels, apart from a group of say ~100 players at the top of the game who cost 10s of millions of pounds to buy, unlike newgens.

It means that after 3 or 4 years I just don't buy real players, just newgens, and it all seems a bit forced to me. I haven't have a save yet when 'a youthful Club X' side isn't dominating the leagues the play in under my management.

It would be nice to have a save where my team wasn't all u-24 and made up. Obviously if I kept going in the same saves then I could have my players ~30 and made up, but I get bored of it before then.

I agree that too few existing future prospects can reach their potential without successful tutoring. It is better and cheaper to just wait until March and pick up a few 5star prospects who are already 17+ Determination, ambitious and professional.

I haven't seen much of this deterioration, though. As I said above I think it is caused by not playing football.

[tomtuck01]

I agree that too few existing future prospects can reach their potential without successful tutoring. It is better and cheaper to just wait until March and pick up a few 5star prospects who are already 17+ Determination, ambitious and professional.

Why do you think Determination is so important?

[BiggusD]

Why do you think Determination is so important?

It is important for performances, but normally, ambitious and professional players are also determined. I rarely find low-determination players with "professional" or "ambitious" personalities that actually reach their potential.

[tomtuck01]

It is important for performances, but normally, ambitious and professional players are also determined. I rarely find low-determination players with "professional" or "ambitious" personalities that actually reach their potential.

Well no, you're wrong there. Determination is just a mental attribute and does nothing different or more than the other mental attributes.

[eple]

Well no, you're wrong there. Determination is just a mental attribute and does nothing different or more than the other mental attributes.

[tomtuck01]

Exactly what it says. The only time Determination will play a big part in a team collective is if you are constantly falling behind.

It has very little to do with whether a player will reach his potential or not - that is down to his personality.

[BiggusD]

Exactly what it says. The only time Determination will play a big part in a team collective is if you are constantly falling behind.

It has very little to do with whether a player will reach his potential or not - that is down to his personality.

Determination is not only a "if you fall behind" failsafe switch.

Make an experiment. Make two of the exact same player (for instance a striker) and let one have 20 Determination and the other 1. Then try them out together for a season, swapping position if the roles are different. I think you would be surprised...

[tomtuck01]

Determination is not only a "if you fall behind" failsafe switch.

Erm, I never said it was. :confused:

[Cedrik]

A realistic transfersystem is still a major issue for SI it seems, I hope this will improve during the upcoming versions of FM.

[eple]

Exactly what it says. The only time Determination will play a big part in a team collective is if you are constantly falling behind.

It has very little to do with whether a player will reach his potential or not - that is down to his personality.

Well okay, that wasn't what you initially wrote, but I jumped in perhaps misunderstanding the discussion. I agree that determination doesn't impact player development directly. For that ambition and professionalism is key. However, I would say that determination is still a very important attribute. Like you say it influences how players react to going behind, but I think it also has an influence on how he reacts to changes in a game, team talks, bad run of form, criticism, etc. Thus, I think indirectly it will have an influence on player progression, as a determined player (all else being equal) is more likely to play better and play more and do so with higher moral. Perhaps you can get away with having a few less determined players, but as a team, having predominantly determined players, will make a big difference.

[tomtuck01]

Well okay, that wasn't what you initially wrote, but I jumped in perhaps misunderstanding the discussion. I agree that determination doesn't impact player development directly. For that ambition and professionalism is key. However, I would say that determination is still a very important attribute. Like you say it influences how players react to going behind, but I think it also has an influence on how he reacts to changes in a game, team talks, bad run of form, criticism, etc. Thus, I think indirectly it will have an influence on player progression, as a determined player (all else being equal) is more likely to play better and play more and do so with higher moral. Perhaps you can get away with having a few less determined players, but as a team, having predominantly determined players, will make a big difference.

Would prefer to have young players with a good personality rather than high determination. Determination will rise with age anyway.

To those who actually know the game and how players train, (which is what was the original point regaridng reaching potential before we got sidetracked onto other things); Personality >>> Determination

Also, in an actual game there are more important mental attributes. "Decisions" for one.

[Veg1ta]

I think part of it is that for some reason in FM a large amount of real players decline reallly really really quickly.

I'm in 2019 mid-table with Derby. I have Fellaini at 3 stars, Kagawa at 2.5, Nick Powell at 3.

I had Ashley Young aged 30 at 2.5 stars in League 1 with Crewe in the same save.

So really, with the exception of a few superstars, the way to succeeed in the game is to flog all your real players for big money and start getting in newgen players.

In my save Man Utd won th 2019 EPL. Their only real players are De Gea, Hamsik, Alaba, Muller and Phil Jones, with Rooney occasionally off the bench.

All the others are gone or rotting in the reserves, but they have all the world's best newgens.

So maybe the reason so many clubs appear to become selling clubs is because they realise that the only way to succeed beyond about season 3 in this game is newgens, and pursue that policy.

I would like it if in future there was at least enough variation to make my observations not as true as they are just now.

yeh because current abilty ratings that vary from coach to coach really matters doesnt it.....if the player performs and he still had good stats current and potential abilty ratings means jack ****, we coped for 7 plus years back in the champ manager days just fine.

[Herbert Fandel]

Who said they were performing well? My newgens do much better

[Veg1ta]

Who said they were performing well? My newgens do much better

i said 'if there playing well' if there form has slipped fair enough put on bench or kick him out the team, but u seemed to suggest current abilty ratings dertermind if a player is past his best or not, which isnt the case, ive seen 3 star players out perform 5 star players quite easily.

[Flohrinho]

It's funny in my games it was always Bayern Munich who sold their star players within the first two seasons and brought in some medicore replacements just to never challenge for the league or CL within 5 years.

[Impi]

It's funny in my games it was always Bayern Munich who sold their star players within the first two seasons and brought in some medicore replacements just to never challenge for the league or CL within 5 years.

Unfortunately here too. The 'AI' is nearly nonexistent. I have seen Dortmund playing a whole season with two central defenders only, Bayern a half year with one striker and so on. The only clubs which are heavily investing are the English. Even Barcelona is going down, because they bought not enough players.

[BiggusD]

Would prefer to have young players with a good personality rather than high determination. Determination will rise with age anyway.

To those who actually know the game and how players train, (which is what was the original point regaridng reaching potential before we got sidetracked onto other things); Personality >>> Determination

Also, in an actual game there are more important mental attributes. "Decisions" for one.

Why coose? A Determined player who is "pleased with the current training" that is Very Heavy is better than a similar player who is only "fairly professional". It means you know that his Ambition is high too because that is what Determined means. So when i find a Fairly Determined player with 17 Determination I know that he is unlikely to be professional at all so I avoid him. Sure, I have seen Fairly Determined players become very good players as well as a Model Professional who had mostly red arrows his entire career, but generally, players with high Determination are much easier to recognize as ambitious professionals.

That was all I said. Sorry for the previous post. No need to continue that line of discussion for any of us, since I felt that you interpreted my words as being "some guy who misinforms people of Determination having an effect on player development", which is an incorrect interpretation.