Setting up an effective 4-2-3-1

[retrodude09]

I am building up a new system for my Arsenal side, based on their real life system with the playmaker on 1 flank, and winger on the other. A playmaker drifting in, feeding play back out to overlapping full back is a good system.

I'm guessing this is inspired by Wenger's recent decision to move Cazorla out to the left wing? I've toyed with this idea in my head but never acted on it. When I think of Arsenal I also think that Ox and Wilshere could play this role?

-

I really want to get a 4-2-3-1 to work and I can't and it's frustrating the hell out of me and then I realised that I posted one up in here that worked well so I'll have a look at that.

[nick1408]

I just had a thought. I couldn't sleep and was thinking on how to set this up with my current Dortmund side. I have Isco coming in soon and need to accommodate him with Gotze, Ganso, Holtby, Gundogan, Reus, Bojan and a couple of others. I thought a 4-2-3-1 would work in the following setup (backups in brackets):

GKd - Koval (Bardi)

FBa - Regen (no cover yet)

CBd - Hummels (Ecule Manga)

CBd - Subotic (Toloi)

WBa - Luke Shaw (Coentrao) I have gone with Shaw as the main player here as he is only half a star behind the backup and I feel it isn't a huge loss in ability in the player swap

CMd - Bender (Wanyama)

DLPs - Gundogan (Leitner)

DWa - Gotze (Bittencourt)

AMs - Isco (Holtby)

IFa - Reus (Heung-Son)

DLFa - Ganso (Bojan)

The DLF may change to a trequartista as Ganso is more suited to the role. If I did that I would change the AM to an attacking role. My concern is there is a lack of support duties but as I am setting this up for the following season I have time to tinker.

[vasilli07]

I am building up a new system for my Arsenal side, based on their real life system with the playmaker on 1 flank, and winger on the other. A playmaker drifting in, feeding play back out to overlapping full back is a good system.

What duties are you using for the playmaker and winger?

[ShirazS]

I am building up a new system for my Arsenal side, based on their real life system with the playmaker on 1 flank, and winger on the other. A playmaker drifting in, feeding play back out to overlapping full back is a good system.

If you don't mind, I would also like to know how you have set up the whole tactic as I am still struggling to settle on a 4-2-3-1 with an AF.

[llama3]

Formation is in its early stages, but playing the following:

GK - Goalkeeper - Defend

DR - Full Back - Support (winger stays high and wide on right, so full back sits further behind)

DRC - Central Defender - Cover

DLC - Central Defender - Stopper (mertesacker despite being slow is superb at covering, he is not brave, but very good positioning and anticipation, so koscielny/vermaelen as stopper)

DL - Wing Back - Attack (pushes high to overlap on left flank, with left midfielder coming inside)

MRC - Central Midfielder - Support (can hold a good solid pairing in centre, but allows him to get forward)

MLC - Central Midfielder - Defend (holds position, spreads ball around, nothing fancy - the arteta job)

AMR - Winger - Attack (stays high and wide to stretch play)

AMC - Advanced Playmaker - Support (links play and spreads the ball into space, in behind defence for winger or forward, or for quick combination overloads in centre with left sided attacker)

AML - Inside Forward - Support (comes inside to link play for quick combination overloads, he runs with the ball and plays through balls as he comes inside, creates overlapping space for left full back, and remains between the lines, hard to pick up)

STC - Complete Forward/Advanced Forward/Deep Lying Forward - Attack (depends on striker, Gervinho is a good dribbler so is an Advanced Forward, Giroud is strong and good at holding the ball up as well as good movement so is a complete forward, Podolski has poor off the ball movement, but decent strength still and links play decently as a Deep Lying Forward)

Short Passing

Default Expression (so Gervinho does not make too many decisions on his own, but does not restrict players like Rosicky, Wilshere & Cazorla)

Press More (can use either more or less pressing - arsenal press heavily when they lose the ball, but drop off into a good shape if they fail to regain it quickly)

Cautious Tackling (tend to retain shape rather than dive in)

Zonal Marking (retains shape of the side)

Default/Drill Crosses (default when Giroud plays to allow for variety - drill crosses when the other forwards play centrally as they are all weak in the air)

More Roaming (good movement off the ball)

I cannot promise this will all work superbly, but pleased with the early results as we are beginning to gel.

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

My Bayern 4-2-3-1 has given me W8-D2-L1 of first 11 games incl. wins v. Dortmund, Man City and Schalke and with a draw at PSG.

Quite happy with it. The board are happy with the attacking football i play too.

[thomit]

Formation is in its early stages, but playing the following:

GK - Goalkeeper - Defend

DR - Full Back - Support (winger stays high and wide on right, so full back sits further behind)

DRC - Central Defender - Cover

DLC - Central Defender - Stopper (mertesacker despite being slow is superb at covering, he is not brave, but very good positioning and anticipation, so koscielny/vermaelen as stopper)

DL - Wing Back - Attack (pushes high to overlap on left flank, with left midfielder coming inside)

MRC - Central Midfielder - Support (can hold a good solid pairing in centre, but allows him to get forward)

MLC - Central Midfielder - Defend (holds position, spreads ball around, nothing fancy - the arteta job)

AMR - Winger - Attack (stays high and wide to stretch play)

AMC - Advanced Playmaker - Support (links play and spreads the ball into space, in behind defence for winger or forward, or for quick combination overloads in centre with left sided attacker)

AML - Inside Forward - Support (comes inside to link play for quick combination overloads, he runs with the ball and plays through balls as he comes inside, creates overlapping space for left full back, and remains between the lines, hard to pick up)

STC - Complete Forward/Advanced Forward/Deep Lying Forward - Attack (depends on striker, Gervinho is a good dribbler so is an Advanced Forward, Giroud is strong and good at holding the ball up as well as good movement so is a complete forward, Podolski has poor off the ball movement, but decent strength still and links play decently as a Deep Lying Forward)

Short Passing

Default Expression (so Gervinho does not make too many decisions on his own, but does not restrict players like Rosicky, Wilshere & Cazorla)

Press More (can use either more or less pressing - arsenal press heavily when they lose the ball, but drop off into a good shape if they fail to regain it quickly)

Cautious Tackling (tend to retain shape rather than dive in)

Zonal Marking (retains shape of the side)

Default/Drill Crosses (default when Giroud plays to allow for variety - drill crosses when the other forwards play centrally as they are all weak in the air)

More Roaming (good movement off the ball)

I cannot promise this will all work superbly, but pleased with the early results as we are beginning to gel.

This is allmost exactly my setup in my 4231 wide system. Very Fluid/Control (Attack if needed). I have set my AML & AMR to swap positions, because I have 4 right-footed players I can rotate within those positions. The stopper/cover combo in defence is not set in stone, for me - it depends on who I'm playing as DC's. Sometimes both are on Defend, sometimes I set one as Limited Defender ... and I don't have my AMR winger hug the line, but given him "normal" wide play, cross ball sometimes, and then kept the DR as a wingback/auto. DL is also wingback/auto; he still gets the forward runs often instruction, but I want him to provide thru-balls just as often as crosses. He does both anyway. I play with the "work ball into box" and "play through defence" shouts as default. Don't use the "press more" option though; I feel pressing is fine as it is on default. Max closing down is fine for the AML/ST/AMR though. Alternating between this and the narrow default 4231 formation.

15 minutes ago I won the PL 2016/17 season with (mostly) using this formation/tactic, having won it the previous season as well, then with (mostly) the narrow 4231. And a CL win and a quarter final, a world club cup win, 2 FA cups and a league cup within the last 2 seasons. Arsenal.

Edit: Oh yes, one small but important difference: I have set my defensive line a couple of notches lower than default. Why? I want to avoid compressing the play area too much. A high D-line not only compresses the area the opponent can move and pass in, but compresses and limits my own passing area as well. Playing a short passing, fairly quick, probing style of football, I sometimes need passing outlets at the rear. If my four at the back press too high - particularly my 2 dc's - , they are not always free to pass back to when needed, for a midfielder or attacker under pressure. A second reason: I no longer have Mertesacker, but if you have, he will definatly benefit from a lower d-line. I have since Per got 2 new dc's that aren't Usain Bolts exactly, so ... I feel a slightly lower d-line gives me more defensive stability, and helps my passing play as well.

[vasilli07]

I came across this article a few days. Instead of using players to cut inside or hug the touchline, wingers are being instructed to move into space in between the fullback and centreback to cause alot more confusion. I decided to try it out on my season as my attack looks pretty static(and really hard to watch) at times during the 2nd season.

Bale is 1 of the player who benefited most from it. 12 Apps - 10 Goals - 8 Assists.

[yonko]

wingers are being instructed to move into space in between the fullback and centreback to cause alot more confusion.

How are they instructed to do that? With "moves into channels"?

[vasilli07]

How are they instructed to do that? With "moves into channels"?

Yes. Move into channels is more of a otb instruction while cutting inside is when a player has the ball.

At the moment, I have my AM(AP - Sup - No change, only roaming checked) in his normal role. My 2 wide midfielders(AP - Att and Winger - Sup) with move into channels as their wide play instruction instead.

It could also be used on a AML(who is left footed) if you want him to play like an inside forward. He will move in between the FB and CB without the ball so when a player try to pass him the ball, he will already be in a more central position.

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

My Bayern 4-2-3-1 is doing very well but conscious that I could make it better.

I’m looking specifically at the Roles of my AMC and my Striker. Currently, I have Muller at AMC set on Advanced Playmaker (support). I have Mandzukic at Striker set on Defensive Forward (attack).

My issue is that I often see them operating in quite the same area of the pitch.

I do like the Defensive Forward role as it seems to open space for Robben (AMR) and Ribery (AML) to attack through the centre (both are Inside Forward attack).

I also like Muller in the AP(s) role as he performs prompting duties in high stratas........I have Schweinsteiger as Deep-Playmaker (defend) to do the string-pulling in my own half.

I have also signed Falcao who will join me in January 2013 and I am conscious that his attributes are probably not best suited to Defensive Fwd.

Any suggestions as to how I might use my AMC and my Striker to the best effect?

[retrodude09]

I came across this article a few days. Instead of using players to cut inside or hug the touchline, wingers are being instructed to move into space in between the fullback and centreback to cause alot more confusion. I decided to try it out on my season as my attack looks pretty static(and really hard to watch) at times during the 2nd season.

Bale is 1 of the player who benefited most from it. 12 Apps - 10 Goals - 8 Assists.

I really like this idea actually. It's pretty much playing as an inside forward but they make the movement without the ball rather than with it.

Vasilli do you have a link to the article you read?

[vasilli07]

I really like this idea actually. It's pretty much playing as an inside forward but they make the movement without the ball rather than with it.

Vasilli do you have a link to the article you read?

Didn't realised that I forgot the article link.

Mechanising the Play – Layering your attack

[JackJCFC]

I came across this article a few days. Instead of using players to cut inside or hug the touchline, wingers are being instructed to move into space in between the fullback and centreback to cause alot more confusion. I decided to try it out on my season as my attack looks pretty static(and really hard to watch) at times during the 2nd season.

Bale is 1 of the player who benefited most from it. 12 Apps - 10 Goals - 8 Assists.

Been trying this on my Chelsea save this afternoon and its working really well. Lost the 1st game 1-0 away to Tottenham but apart from that i've been unbeaten (11 games, 10 wins) when previously i was struggling to get consistent form going.

Front 4 of Torres Hazard Mata Oscar/Marin/Moses is working really well so far with Lampard/Hamsik and Mikel playing behind them.

[Luizinho]

I came across this article a few days. Instead of using players to cut inside or hug the touchline, wingers are being instructed to move into space in between the fullback and centreback to cause alot more confusion. I decided to try it out on my season as my attack looks pretty static(and really hard to watch) at times during the 2nd season.

Bale is 1 of the player who benefited most from it. 12 Apps - 10 Goals - 8 Assists.

Could share you set-up?

[vasilli07]

Could share you set-up?

*Standard/Balanced

*B2B role as DLP(Sup) instructions.

*Wingers with 'move into channels' as wide play instructions.

*Only 'Work ball into box' shout.

*TM opposition fullbacks

A good solid defensive foundation is a key to a successful 4-2-3-1 so I will share a few tips on how I built mine.

Central Defence

Cover

Varane

Vertonghen

Stopper

Kaboul

Caulker

When do I use who?

Against tricky and pacy players like Suarez(high in agility), I will always go with my cover defenders as they have good agilty and pace to match them.

But if I have to play against a striker like Benteke/Carroll, I will sub 1 of my cover defender for a stopper who are always better in aerial duels(jumping >17).

DM Positions

Complete Midfielders(DLP/DM/AM/B2B)

Geoffrey Kondogbia

Maxime Gonalons

Mousa Dembélé

Sandro

All the DM I have a few key traits as they will need to fulfill multiple roles.

1) Good passer.

2) Good OTB movement.

3) Good positioning.

4) Good marking and tackling.

5) Physicality and athleticism(Physical attributes all above 13).

[retrodude09]

For some reason I'm really struggling to get a 4-2-3-1 to work how I want it to with Dortmund and it's frustrating the hell out of me.

I'm winning games, just about but I'm not playing how I want to play.

[Midnight Rob]

I haven't read every single post in the thread but enough I think to spot a common mistake in most people's setups.

The fullbacks must play on defend unless you are playing with the 2-DM variety. The simple fact is that the advanced wide players will be offering them next to no support out wide. So you don't want them bombing on nor do you want them closing down a great deal either.

In other positions and keeping everything simple. The two central mids are utilised in a holding role. The AMC is an obvious choice for the playmaker especially when facing oppositions who play without a DMs such as a 442.

Out wide I just don't see this being a winger formation (with exception perhaps being that the opposition is massively clogging their middle e.g. 3142) as for starters you only have one centre forward. So typically the striker plays high although could hold the ball up for wall-passes (give and go's).

As with most centralised attacks, particularly those using any kind of 'advanced' playmaker the passing should be shorter. Direct always favours deep playmakers / wingers / counterattacks.

I'll stop there but that's your more typical flavour with the 4231.

[thomit]

Your opinion, but I disagree, Rob. With Standard/Control strategy, having full backs/wing backs on support duty is fine, even with the 2 MC's in the true MC postions. Granted, you don't want any of the MC's to be too attacking minded then - a CM/defensive coupled with a DLP/support, seems to be a functioning partnership. In more attacking strategies (Attacking/Overload), attack duties for the Full backs/wing backs is fine too. In effect, keeping the DL/DR on automatic seems perfectly fine. It will depend on how good your central midfielders are, however. Both are in many ways the key players in this formation, and if they're not top notch, you will struggle.

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

Lahm at LWBs and Schweinsteiger at DMLd (deep playmaker) works. When Lahm bombs fwd Schweinsteiger covers any counter attacks down that side.

[Gee_Simpson]

@ Vasili - Don't you feel that sometimes your AF, Winger & AP (right) get in each others way with all 3 having 'moves into channels' as a wide play instruction?

[SJ234]

I think the issue with the 4-2-3-1 is that people think that it has to look like a 4-2-3-1 on the tactics screen to be one. What I think is the best way to think about it is to look at that screen as how you would like your team to defend as players in the AM strata are not great at tracking back and are thus more likely to stay up the pitch. If I was to recreate Dortmund's usual shape I would have that polish winger at RM with a winger attack role whilst Reus would be in the AML position playing with inside forward support or attack depending on the opposition.

that is just my bit on this

[vasilli07]

@ Vasili - Don't you feel that sometimes your AF, Winger & AP (right) get in each others way with all 3 having 'moves into channels' as a wide play instruction?

Nope, they won't. Your striker will have his wide play instruction as well so he will move around too.

As I'm using a deep b2b midfielder, at times, I have 5 players at edge waiting to attack the box. With your 2 FBs out wide providing the crosses, it's hard not to get a scoring chance on every attack.

[Gee_Simpson]

I posted this in the stupid questions thread but guess it would get more replies in here as it's relevant to this thread.

"I'm trying to create a tactic that resembles how Bayern Munich play as I'm a big fan of the way they play. Especially the 2 DM's and the AMC.

I'm thinking of going with:

DM (S) - - - - - DLP (D)

AP or AM (S)

I'm not sure if I should go Balanced or Fluid either?"

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

Gee that’s what I go with for Bayern

Schweinsteiger DML (Deep Lying Playmaker, Defend)

Martinez DMR (Defensive Midfielder, Support)

Muller AMC (Advanced Playmaker, Support)

Kroos I’ve retrained to be natural DM and AM so he can come in for either Schweini or Muller if need be.

I began playing with a Fluid set-up but I’ve very recently changed to Rigid. I think I read something saying if you have 2 or more specialist roles (as the Playmakers are) then you are best to go Rigid. Can’t remember exactly why cos I read so much. With the Fluid set-up in Season 1 I won the German Super Cup and German Cup, lost the Champions League Final to Real Madrid, and finished 2nd in the Bundesliga to Dortmund. What killed me in the League was an away record of 5-9-3 so something had to change and I’ve gone for Rigid.

Another point to make about the thread is that having Schweinsteiger as DML defend allows me to set Lahm as Wing Back Attack (still from a starting DL position though) – when Lahm goes fwd Schweini sits back in the space vacated and makes me solid defensively.

What about Robben and Ribery? You set them as Inside Forward attack? That’s what I had them on but ended up selling Robben (£20m to Man U) in summer 2013 as I was sick of his injuries.

[Oblivion]

Since I also use a 4-2-3-1 and with some amount of success (I'm not bragging, just to say I managed to reach Primera Division with Real Oviedo after 2 seasons) I thought I might share my set-up with you. Although the team is far from perfect, in fact I have only decent players for the level I'm competing at, I'm doing quite well sitting mid-table with one-third of the season already played. However, thanks to not being a leading team in the league in terms of players (unlike it was it Segunda B for instance) I opted for a more levelled approach, and it brought me some good results, e.g. a 3-1 home win with Valencia.

Here are the team settings:

I use default player settings for given positions with the exceptions of:

MCR - Hold up Ball set to No

AMR & AML - Cross From set to Mixed, and Wide Play set to Normal

[Guest]

Gee that’s what I go with for Bayern

Schweinsteiger DML (Deep Lying Playmaker, Defend)

Martinez DMR (Defensive Midfielder, Support)

Muller AMC (Advanced Playmaker, Support)

Kroos I’ve retrained to be natural DM and AM so he can come in for either Schweini or Muller if need be.

I began playing with a Fluid set-up but I’ve very recently changed to Rigid. I think I read something saying if you have 2 or more specialist roles (as the Playmakers are) then you are best to go Rigid. Can’t remember exactly why cos I read so much. With the Fluid set-up in Season 1 I won the German Super Cup and German Cup, lost the Champions League Final to Real Madrid, and finished 2nd in the Bundesliga to Dortmund. What killed me in the League was an away record of 5-9-3 so something had to change and I’ve gone for Rigid.

Another point to make about the thread is that having Schweinsteiger as DML defend allows me to set Lahm as Wing Back Attack (still from a starting DL position though) – when Lahm goes fwd Schweini sits back in the space vacated and makes me solid defensively.

What about Robben and Ribery? You set them as Inside Forward attack? That’s what I had them on but ended up selling Robben (£20m to Man U) in summer 2013 as I was sick of his injuries.

No, if you have just two specialists its fluid........3 its balanced............4 its rigid...........5 its very rigid...

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

No, if you have just two specialists its fluid........3 its balanced............4 its rigid...........5 its very rigid...

Really?

Okay, which positions are considered Specialist? Playmakers I would assume, how about Wingbacks, Inside Forwards etc?

[HTC]

I started a new game with a low league team and i am using a 4231 but with the wingers in FL/R positions.

GK

DR (FBs)

DC (LD)

DC (LD)

DL (FBs)

MC (BWMd)

MC (BWMd)

AMC (Treq)

FR (Wa)

STC (P)

FL (Wa)

Rigid, Attacking

Shorter

Expressive

Press More

Cautious

Default marking

Float

Stick

My thought was to FULL PRESS with the bold ones and achive promotion despite my middle class squad compared to others.

So far i dominate some matches winning 4,5-0 but in some others i conceed easily.

My first eleven are very good for the league but i am very week at full backs.

Do you see any crystal clear flaws in my setup??

[Guest]

Really?

Okay, which positions are considered Specialist? Playmakers I would assume, how about Wingbacks, Inside Forwards etc?

It's here

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/353251-Generic-Specialized-Roles

[Guest]

I started a new game with a low league team and i am using a 4231 but with the wingers in FL/R positions.

GK

DR (FBs)

DC (LD)

DC (LD)

DL (FBs)

MC (BWMd)

MC (BWMd)

AMC (Treq)

FR (Wa)

STC (P)

FL (Wa)

Rigid, Attacking

Shorter

Expressive

Press More

Cautious

Default marking

Float

Stick

My thought was to FULL PRESS with the bold ones and achive promotion despite my middle class squad compared to others.

So far i dominate some matches winning 4,5-0 but in some others i conceed easily.

My first eleven are very good for the league but i am very week at full backs.

Do you see any crystal clear flaws in my setup??

The biggest one is the BWM's with a 4231 the central midfielders are key to providing cover for the defenders and with bwm's chasing the ball all over the pitch you have a HUGE gap in central midfield which an am or cm can exploit. Nearly everyone on here would advise against using one BWM nevermind two.

[RocheBag]

Really?

Okay, which positions are considered Specialist? Playmakers I would assume, how about Wingbacks, Inside Forwards etc?

You can generally tell by the name. Anything that's just a position on the pitch + a position is general (Advanced Forward, Defensive Forward, Wide Midfielder, Central Defender). Anything with an abstract sort of name is specialist (Target Man, Anchor Man, Advanced Playmaker)

[Midnight Rob]

Your opinion, but I disagree, Rob. With Standard/Control strategy, having full backs/wing backs on support duty is fine, even with the 2 MC's in the true MC postions. Granted, you don't want any of the MC's to be too attacking minded then - a CM/defensive coupled with a DLP/support, seems to be a functioning partnership. In more attacking strategies (Attacking/Overload), attack duties for the Full backs/wing backs is fine too. In effect, keeping the DL/DR on automatic seems perfectly fine. It will depend on how good your central midfielders are, however. Both are in many ways the key players in this formation, and if they're not top notch, you will struggle.

You'll get away with support/attack FBs simply if you are a very good team and have amongst the best playing personnel in the division. To play the system effectively with only two CD's and one Mid on a defensive setting can or will be suicidal for less than great teams. As stated, the wide players are so far advanced as to offer very little cover out wide. Against various setups, notably 433/451 you can be torched if you don't protect yourself from those positions. It is a reason why some people are struggling, their setups are too offense orientated with poorer sides.

[themadsheep2001]

I've never played with full backs on defend at any level, and its worked incredibly well. I wouldn't say that not having full backs on defend is a flaw. Indeed playing with both on defend can leave your build up disjointed and one dimensional if you have no staggered threat, especially if you are using inside forwards as it can leave you with no width.

[Midnight Rob]

The biggest one is the BWM's with a 4231 the central midfielders are key to providing cover for the defenders and with bwm's chasing the ball all over the pitch you have a HUGE gap in central midfield which an am or cm can exploit. Nearly everyone on here would advise against using one BWM nevermind two.

Even in an attacking/pressing setup? Isn't such a system designed to win the ball high up the pitch? I'm not saying you don't want holding players but just look at his team instructions.

[Gee_Simpson]

Gee that’s what I go with for Bayern

Schweinsteiger DML (Deep Lying Playmaker, Defend)

Martinez DMR (Defensive Midfielder, Support)

Muller AMC (Advanced Playmaker, Support)

Kroos I’ve retrained to be natural DM and AM so he can come in for either Schweini or Muller if need be.

I began playing with a Fluid set-up but I’ve very recently changed to Rigid. I think I read something saying if you have 2 or more specialist roles (as the Playmakers are) then you are best to go Rigid. Can’t remember exactly why cos I read so much. With the Fluid set-up in Season 1 I won the German Super Cup and German Cup, lost the Champions League Final to Real Madrid, and finished 2nd in the Bundesliga to Dortmund. What killed me in the League was an away record of 5-9-3 so something had to change and I’ve gone for Rigid.

Another point to make about the thread is that having Schweinsteiger as DML defend allows me to set Lahm as Wing Back Attack (still from a starting DL position though) – when Lahm goes fwd Schweini sits back in the space vacated and makes me solid defensively.

What about Robben and Ribery? You set them as Inside Forward attack? That’s what I had them on but ended up selling Robben (£20m to Man U) in summer 2013 as I was sick of his injuries.

For that midfield trio that is how I think I'll set it up. I kind of want a BWM (not as reckless but like how Javi Martinez plays IRL) type beside the DLP like Bayern set up so yeah, DM (S) probably is the most suitable role for it with its high closing down settings. I'm fascinated with Bayern's holding midfield double pivot, it really offers solid protection to the CB's but also is dangerous at counter attacking. I would ideally like each DM to take turns in stepping up and the other covering but don't know if it's possible to replicate in FM apart from setting the two players to swap position?

As for you wingers question, I reckon I'll set 1 as an IF (A) and probably the other as a DW (A/S) as Bayern's wingers have been tracking back recently but I'll probably just have one of them doing that.

I actually haven't got a current save up and running atm. Bizarrely, I pre ordered FM13 but haven't managed to find the time to get a save going yet I won't be going Bayern though, probably AS Monaco or Man Utd but not sure which.

[themadsheep2001]

Even in an attacking/pressing setup? Isn't such a system designed to win the ball high up the pitch? I'm not saying you don't want holding players but just look at his team instructions.

The key to the 4-2-3-1 is the box + triangle shape created by the CBs, MCs and AMC. BWMs press without trying to keep shape, so often break that shape. Even in a pressing game, you still ideally want to press while maintaining that shape.

[The Dandy Dons]

I'm struggling a bit with my attacking players. Last season my main scorers were Bale at AML with 22 goals in 31 games and Neymar up front with 32 in 36. Both main outlets have dried up a bit and now I'm struggling to break teams down, and I'm a bit lost. Bale used to come in off the wing and score and Neymar could score anywhere inside the box. Also last season Bale average 6.59 dribbles a game compared to 3.19. I feel I've just lost a bit of fluidity.

This is my system -

And an example of lack of the forward play -

I have tried to the forward in a deep-lying role and an advanced forward role but he doesn't ever seem to receive the ball nearly as much as his teammates. I feel this also hurts Bale's chances of scoring too.

[themadsheep2001]

Off the top off my head it looks like they are defending deep against you and Neymar is getting isolated.

Can I ask what your team instructions are?

[The Dandy Dons]

I dominated the match, with around 65% possession, and they only managed 4 shots so they were definitely defending deep. It has been a recurring problem through-out the season.

[themadsheep2001]

Have you considered a CF support/AP attack combo?

Your team instructions are almost identical to mine, but I also use standard and control. I have a lot of success with such a combination

[The Dandy Dons]

No, but I will do. Anything to try and get the fluidity back my forwards that I had last season.

[worthit]

whenever you play against a ultra defensive team, Drop deeper to 1 or 2 notch "Deeper than deep" & wider to normal width to draw them out.

short passing to "work into box" or Direct to "balls into area" - depends on your preferences...

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

Dandy Dons the line up looks to me like it could do with some more attacking roles for players – you only have 2 players with Attack Duty which seems a little light to me.

You have Thiago as DLP Defend on the left-centre of your midfield. This would allow you to put Alaba as WB (attack) rather than just Support as Thiago would cover the left side when Alaba get forward.

Bale as Inside Forward *should* cut in and this will open space for a more attacking Alaba to get outside him.

Also, as Thiago is ‘defend’ that would allow you to move Henriksen to Support to give a more balanced centre pairing, I’m not sure having both on Defend will be helping you.

I’d also go with Gotze as attacking duty (although I don’t think Winger is the strongest position for him – can you play him at AP and bring someone else to Right Wing?)

Anyway, if you set up as I suggest you’d have a more balanced and cohesive unit in my opinion.

wwfan’s 12 step guide is a good read.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/332585-How-to-Play-FM13-A-Twelve-Step-Guide

[tajj 7]

I dominated the match, with around 65% possession, and they only managed 4 shots so they were definitely defending deep. It has been a recurring problem through-out the season.

If you imagine a very deep, narrow back four they will essentially have no space inbetween them (i.e between fullback and centreback) and very little space behind them (as they will be around the box with the keeper behind). They are like a little wall.

Neymar is trying to run into the space behind (that isn't there) or dribble through but can't get one v one that easily because the defenders are close together and have no other players to mark.

Bale is trying to do similar, i.e dribble through or exploit the gaps between the fullback and centre-back, which is again space that isn't there.

Gotze is providing some width on the right that might stretch the play a bit but is on support so will be looking to be a bit deeper and cross from deeper, whic hagainst a deep defence and drilled crosses they will clear more easily.

Kagawa is playing an AP on support so he will sit in front of the defence in the hole, but his passing options are limited because both Bale and Neymar are running into the 'wall' with no space behind or through.

Both your fullbacks are also backing up the play on support, not attacking the space or looking for the overlap.

Both your mids are defensive.

You need to pull the wall apart.

So my suggestions would be:-

- to play wider.

- maybe put Neymar as Treq so he drifts about pulling a CB with him,

- have Gotze on attack so he pins one of the fullbacks back and might create a bit of space for your right full back.

- Have Alaba on attack so he adds width and moves into the space Bale has left.

- Put Kagawa to AM(A) so me makes runs into the box.

- Have Henriksen on support so he can move into the space Kagawa left.

[tajj 7]

(Sorry for second post didn't want to combine them together.)

Some interesting ideas here. I like the 'moves into channels' as a without the ball instruction for the wide players, IIRC Gotze has this as a PPM.

One thing I'm thinking about trying is an AP in the AmR position with 'cuts inside' instruction ticked. Has anyone tired this? The reason being is that I have Ozil who is by far the best playmaker I have (creativity, passing flair, etc. all 20) but is also left footed. Gotze doesn't seem to perform too well in the AMR position as a Winger. So I thought of trying something like this:-

Rigid

Counter

shorter passing

GK

DR - WB - Attack + 'hugs touchline'

DL - WB - Attack + 'hugs touchline'

DC - CD - Defend

DC - CD - Defend

DMC/MC - DLP - Defend

DMC/MC - BWM/BBM - Support

AML - IF - Attack + 'Moves into Channels' (has 'cuts inside as PPM)

AMC - AM - Attack

AMR - AP - Support + 'Cuts Inside'

SC - TM - Support (TM supply to feet)

Not sure on roaming, pressing and creative freedom setting yet, probably will go with easy tackling as well.

Idea is the TM holds up the ball and feeds it into the players behind, both wingbacks fill the width, the AMC and IF make the runs past the striker and the AP drops into the hole to supply the passes. The BWm or BBM can then add an extra player to the attack. The DLP should then flow the play from the back to the front whilst protecting the defence.

[The Dandy Dons]

Thanks for the replies, I will make the changes tonight. I don't normally use Gotze out wide, but I had some injuries but I have do have out and out AMRs. I have fiddled about with Alaba on attack before, but the midfield changes will hopefully prove to be helpful. I do think they sometimes hold position a bit too much which leads to the forwards being starved of support.

[Cadijk van Kaarhandel]

Shaqiri is excellent on the right. Get him back from his loan.

Stand Free

CvK

[Gee_Simpson]

@ Cadijk - Do you mind posting up a screen shot of your Bayern tactic mate? Cheers.

[robterrace]

Been fiddling about with a 4-2-3-1 with a Reading save someone put in the GPTG forum on here...

Got the layout sorted OK, its a beast on the counter though..

Wigan are going forward, and cross in..

The DC intercepts and brings it out at his feet..

He takes maybe the more difficult option of the pass to the AMC

The LW goes all Messi/Ronaldo like..

Before the ball ends up with the RW, who does this..