*Official* Football Manager 2013 Constructive non-ME Feedback Thread

[Sweed]

I can't believe you still refuse to put more contrasting rows for this screen:

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/kmd791ithw92akj/Braintree%20v%20Boreham%20Wood_%20Stats%20Away%20Stats.png

Neil, please!

Agreed, this screen is a pain to look at. Better contrast or the ability to highlight a row would make it much easier to see. Or better yet both contrast and highlight capability?

[slipknot67]

You have a high starting reputation to begin with,both as a team and as a manager.

Try doing the same with a lower team, then let us know of the outcome. Let us know after you have equally good players how the matches go.

The poster I was responding to claims that Very small teams can get big wins against much bigger teams due to the ME being broken, my post wasn't about look how brilliant I am coz I won the league. It was trying to explain that if the ME was causing small teams to constantly beat bigger teams, then the fact that my manager rep and team being so vastly superior to every opponent in my league should in fact work against me and mean I struggle to win any league game.

[Kingofpilot]

I'm currently managing Celtic in the SPL, I'm in my 5th season and have had a tycoon takeover, every single team in my league are complete minnows compared to the squad I have, according to your nonsensical broken ME theory I should be getting smashed every week. Well we've just won the league by nearly 30 points. Can you give me a sensible explanation for that which doesn't blether on about me having to have found out a way to beat the ME rather than the ai.

I did not say the ME was broken, I said there is something wrong with it. In the bugs forum one of SI guys said something like: "We are looking into the issue of overachieving weak tems.", which to me sounds like he admits the problem. There is undeniably large number of people who have issues playing week teams. Whenever I play a team that is about to get relegated or is in fact relegated I know I will struggle. I am actually looking forward to playing teams such as Man Utd. But there are people who defend the game and people who blame ME for everything. It is hard to find the sweet spot. Iam not raging, I have decent results in the game, I just feel that it is totally unrealistic. I am tired of people blaming everything on the game but Iam also tired of people who keep sayin: "It´s your tactics."

[Apos]

The poster I was responding to claims that Very small teams can get big wins against much bigger teams due to the ME being broken, my post wasn't about look how brilliant I am coz I won the league. It was trying to explain that if the ME was causing small teams to constantly beat bigger teams, then the fact that my manager rep and team being so vastly superior to every opponent in my league should in fact work against me and mean I struggle to win every single game.

No,it works in your favour, because the outcome is influenced by the reputations too much.

Like I said, get a bottom team and dominate europe. See for yourself how it is when you don't have reputation. Even if you are the dominant team when it comes to players AND tactics, it just won't matter.

"ok, the AI team has 10000 fans and we only have 2000, we'd better concede 3 goals just to be safe."

As far as the other side of the coin goes, you are not losing against weak teams because you have players with high professionalism. Once again, get a team that is not well known from the start and see how easy it is to sign those players. You will have to go with players of equal stats, yet less professionalism.(edit: this is not a rant about the difficulty of signing players,I agree with it, just mentioning how it affects things)

Getting complacent is something I can understand. Forgetting how to kick a ball is something I can't. No matter how complacent you get, once you learn how to juggle, you can juggle both when being arrogant and when being modest. Having less professionalism doesn't mean that you have amnesia, that's the problem.

[slipknot67]

and how often does your team deliver 5+ goals without conceding?

I've won 6-0 twice this season, once in the league and once in the league cup.

[edgar555]

Where are all the natural libero's?

Have you tried looking in the 1970's?

[Cornfleek]

Can't blame you for editing out that nonsense about tactical gurus and ME busting tactics just as I hit reply. Fwiw it's since I read wwfans advice in here and stopped using an ME busting tactic that my results have improved. I would advise you to have a read of some of his posts in the tactics and training forum threads but I guess as long as you continue to get angry at the ME (which whilst has it's flaws is in my opinion a vast improvement on any that have come before it) and obstinately refuse to believe the very reason a lot of people are struggling is because the match engine has less potential for being exploited by unrealistic tactics than before, then it's unfortunately unlikely you'll take that advice on board.

Anyway I'm done banging my head against a brick wall in this thread and as someone has already mentioned I'm frankly amazed that anyone at SI can bring themselves to bother reading this thread any more with the sheer amount of pointless venting of anger making the all too few constructively critical posts in here like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

Sorry about the last minute edit :-). I agree for the most parts with you, with the ME having more potential and all. I see the improvement, and I'm ready to dig in and start fiddling and messing about, but at the moment I believe the ME is not good enough to spend eons of time on as a player. So I'm spending eons of time giving out about a game that I find below par, which is obviously silly in itself...

I think it's a good thing that anger is being vented here personally. It gives SI a good idea of how well they did with this release, it gives them an idea how passionate their customer base is as well as how passionate their fan base is. I agree that there's no need for insults and such, but I believe people have a right to be angry at the current state of the game. I am not a fan of SI, I am not friends with SI, I am a paying customer, and a disappointed one at that.

edit: Lol, for flip sake, typo calling myself a disappointing customer :-), perhaps I am to them actually, but I don't really care :-)

[Svenc]

The AI in PES is extremely good.

The Barcelona v Real game plays just like a real game albeit speeded up.

You don't see that in the FM engine.

Even in the current iteration of PES, Barcelona in particular are playing nowhere near where they tend to play in real-life. They cannot. By very definition. FIFA and PES are one-way soccer sims, with a 90 minutes sports cut short by about 8/9 of its actual playing time, and the emphasis being put on the action that occurs during these 90 minutes of build-ups and slowdowns and ebbs and flows of a real match. At its most frantic, it's kind of like a Nike advert gone game, rather than the actual sports. It portrays a very idealistic notion of football, one in which the real Messi admits his virtual self to far outperform reality. As such, every team, the AI anyways, plays the same kind of football and strategy, it's mostly direct attacking for most of the game. As soon as the AI wins the ball, they're moving it forward ASAP. Likewise, unlike in FM, Ronaldo's free-kicks barely once miss their target, and North Korea are nicely able to hold possession also. It's damn awesome for what these games are trying to do, the plug&play action you expect to have when picking up a gamepad and having a go at virtual football always at its most adrenaline pumped. The moves are as fluid as your ability allows them to be, the animations are superb, and in the details it can look really realistic when it has far surpassed the point where the real sports can ever be.

As you mentioned Konami's manager based on PES 5 back then: It made no impact whatsoever, perhaps unsurprisingly: http://www.gamerankings.com/ps2/931949-pro-evolution-soccer-management/index.html As in current FIFA Manager, as these reviews suggest, any influence on style and strategy was close to non-existent. In current FIFA Manager, no matter how much you tell your time to waste time and play it save - options for both are actually in the game - they will still get the ball forward ASAP within three to four passes no matter what you do. Try to hold onto possession and a lead with 15 minutes to go? Doesn't work. Trying to play a more risky style to snatch a late equalizer? That is how a match in FIFA manager plays out for both sides for the entire 10ish minutes of play. There is barely anything remotely approaching something that simulates the strategic choices a real manager has to make during a match. I agree with your notion that FM's graphics aren't anywhere near those games. But try FIFA Manager, or PES Soccer Management judging by what the reviews had to say, and you will come back here a different man.

As a very beautiful quote ripped straight from a rewiew on PES Soccer Management has it:

In the end, it’s not about how good the games look, it’s about how involved you are. When you’re playing Football Manager, with it’s simple 2D game engine, every now and then you might think, ‘These are just little dots moving about on the screen. It’s not real.’ But not very often. With PES Management, even though all the players’ faces look the way they should and every match is rendered in beautiful 3D, you are always aware that it’s only a game.

[slipknot67]

No,it works in your favour, because the outcome is influenced by the reputations too much.

Like I said, get a bottom team and dominate europe. See for yourself how it is when you don't have reputation. Even if you are the dominant team when it comes to players AND tactics, it just won't matter.

"ok, the AI team has 10000 fans and we only have 2000, we'd better concede 3 goals just to be safe."

As far as the other side of the coin goes, you are not losing against weak teams because you have players with high professionalism. Once again, get a team that is not well known from the start and see how easy it is to sign those players. You will have to go with players of equal stats, yet less professionalism.(edit: this is not a rant about the difficulty of signing players,I agree with it, just mentioning how it affects things)

Getting complacent is something I can understand. Forgetting how to kick a ball is something I can't. No matter how complacent you get, once you learn how to juggle, you can juggle both when being arrogant and when being modest. Having less professionalism doesn't mean that you have amnesia, that's the problem.

If the guy I was responding to is struggling to beat teams weaker than his because of him having too low a manager reputation for his team to be bothered to listen to him and are becoming complacent in these matches then why is it he claims to be doing well against teams that are nearer his own in terms of ability.

Surely the fact that these teams are more likely to be managed by a manager with a significantly higher reputation than the small teams that are beating him 5 or 6-0 suggests that he should be struggling a lot more against equally matched teams than smaller ones?

[asdpoo]

When my DoF/Assman is making contracts for players I listed for loan, he doesn't include any clauses. I need be able to recall some of them. There is no way to negotiate the proposals I got, even though "view offer" shows it is "negotiable" offer.

That feature is practically unusable.

[fred1]

I'm finding my players close down a lot better if i set closing down on the opposition individual instructions with tackle hard also selected.

If i don't do this even if my players on the highest closing down setting they don't really do it.

Just played Arsenal and my full backs and midfielders were really hassling the Arsenal wingers and midfielders, closing down and making tackles.

I went back and played the game again with exact same tactics but no opposition individual tactics set and most of the time my players just let the opposition run straight at them with no pressure or tackles put in.

I have also got my GK playing the ball to my fullbacks from a goal kick, mostly to my RB. Does it on most occasions, only plays it long when the fullbacks are a bit tighter marked.

[bieritarier]

I've won 6-0 twice this season, once in the league and once in the league cup.

Must be me then. I scored 7 once, but of course the only attack in the other direction meant it was 7-1. 1 or two 5-0 over two seasons and no friedly where I scored more than 5. And I've tried a variety of things (funnly enought the games looked exactly the same on contain as on standard. overload was a bit more high paced passing around the box but movement or passes into to box? rarely.

the variety of attacks my team is trying isnt too bad but they too lottle success against lowly teams and their army of defenders in the box tactics. then seing 3 or 4 of my defenders unable to deal with 1 winder and one striker is just driving me crazy.

I think I'll be a happy camper once

a) closing down is fixed

b) top class players are less likely to make silly mistakes

c) sunday league footballs are more likely to make mistakes

Apart from that the ME looks really good.

[treble_yell_:-)]

I did not say the ME was broken, I said there is something wrong with it. In the bugs forum one of SI guys said something like: "We are looking into the issue of overachieving weak tems.", which to me sounds like he admits the problem.

They freely admit there is an issue with low rep superteams, but the apologists in their rabid defence of SI don't bother to check the bug forum half the time to see if it's an actual bug before they heroically leap to the defence of SI.

It works in our favour as well though, I reached the Final of the German FA cup in season 1 and the semi finals of the Eufa cup in season 2 withh German division 2 club Cottbus. I would beat Napoli 3-0 away on a Thursday then go back to struggling in the league Sunday.

[Kingofpilot]

I also hope SI will fix the issue when your striker instead of going on the keeper one on one chooses to shoot from 20 yards, it is frustrating. And, of course, they hopefully fix the issue when your players backpass even in goalscoaring opportunities.

[slipknot67]

Must be me then. I scored 7 once, but of course the only attack in the other direction meant it was 7-1. 1 or two 5-0 over two seasons and no friedly where I scored more than 5. And I've tried a variety of things (funnly enought the games looked exactly the same on contain as on standard. overload was a bit more high paced passing around the box but movement or passes into to box? rarely.

the variety of attacks my team is trying isnt too bad but they too lottle success against lowly teams and their army of defenders in the box tactics. then seing 3 or 4 of my defenders unable to deal with 1 winder and one striker is just driving me crazy.

I think I'll be a happy camper once

a) closing down is fixed

b) top class players are less likely to make silly mistakes

c) sunday league footballs are more likely to make mistakes

Apart from that the ME looks really good.

I must admit I feel my teams defence should be able to keep more clean sheets than they are and improved pressing in the defensive third should make a difference to this aspect of my tactic.

[sirgiorgio]

When my team that is 2 tiers higher than the opposition and is at full strenght is down by 3 goals 15 mins into the match than there is seriously something wrong. Iam no tactics guru but no idiot either and I´ve played football and I was also a coach (at very low level of course) but I have experienced enough football to be able to tell you, that a lot of things in this game are flawed and as already mentioned you have the lottery feeling. When you play a substantially worse team than tactics do not really matter that much. Do you think that for example Man U would have a special tactics meeting before a match against Semi- amateur team? Do you think that Real Madrid at full strenght would be totally outplayed by fourth division team even with "not 100% correct tactics"? If you think so than Iam sorry for you.

Underdogs over-performing is a bug (actually, I think it's a combination of known issues) and PaulC and the ME team are working on it.

Isn't it ironic? You have a world class assistant manager, a fair number of great coaches, good players, ratings, stats, training, tactics creator, set pieces creator, match preparation, and the 3D view, but in the end of the day everything you need to do is follow wwfan's advices.

Don't get me wrong, I respect his work, but my point is, what wwfan is doing in the forum should be done by the game in the game.

- Goalkeepers have just watched Shaolin Soccer: they know Kung Fu but they don't know how to stop a slow high ball

- Defenders have amnesia and act like they never played football before

- Fullbacks go forward like Japanese Kamikazes, receive the ball, pass it back, and sprint backwards in fear

- Midfielders play their own version of basketball: without ball, they just wait and hope the opponents will lose possession asap; with ball, they keep passing it until someone gets bored and shoots (if they're instructed to shoot rarely, they'll do it more often)

- Wingers who are supposed to "hug the line" cut inside and wait for the ball inside the penalty area, better if in offside position

- Forwards won't ever help the defence unless you start playing a conservative version of the Catenaccio

Meanwhile, my assistant manager (or ASSistant licker) gives some precious suggestions, such as: "We are dominating", "Our tackles are bad, wait no, they're good!", "The guy who just sent the ball outside the stadium is an accomplished crosser", "Our left winger is dominating in the air", "Our defender isn't having the best game of his career, but has made some crucial interceptions", "our passing is bad because of the language barrier", and other pearls of wisdom.

Hence the frustration. For someone who has played the game since 97 it's obvious to think "it's my tactics". For someone who knows how these things go it's obvious to think: "The update will correct some bugs (and introduce others), so I'll have to change my tactics again". But for someone who actually knows how real football works, the Match Engine, as it is now, is pure craziness.

[Kingofpilot]

It works in our favour as well though, I reached the Final of the German FA cup in season 1 and the semi finals of the Eufa cup in season 2 withh German division 2 club Cottbus. I would beat Napoli 3-0 away on a Thursday then go back to struggling in the league Sunday.

LOL. That is classic FM 13.

[Apos]

LOL. That is classic FM 13.

Add 3 woodworks and 1 injury per game and you have FM12 as well to be honest.

[eddymunster]

Add 3 woodworks and 1 injury per game and you have FM12 as well to be honest.

No in FM12 you did have a small influence on the outcome of a match. You are a passenger in FM13.

[bieritarier]

Add 3 woodworks and 1 injury per game and you have FM12 as well to be honest.

minus the 3 woodworks, I get them almost each game in 13 as well.

[ima92]

Weaker teams DO have advantage against strong ones, as empoli in serie B Im having a hard time beating teams that are deep down in the table, geez even wasn't able to beat semi-professional teams in friendlies, but then with the same tactic I'm beating other strong teams, and I've even beat Milan (5-2) and Napoli (3-2) in the cup with the same tactic and 11 in the cup, but then on next cup match I had to face pro vercelli (last in serie B) and I wasn't able to beat them! (Won by penalties otherwise my computer would be dead by now)

Edit: then it feels worse when fans get angered when you draw against these teams, and you feel like there was nothing else you could do!

My solution for now: instant result. I'm using the skin that adds the button to full fm and its results are more realistic against these teams than if I played them myself

[thefonz75]

Even in the current iteration of PES, Barcelona in particular are playing nowhere near where they tend to play in real-life. They cannot. By very definition. FIFA and PES are one-way soccer sims, with a 90 minutes sports cut short by about 8/9 of its actual playing time, and the emphasis being put on the action that occurs during these 90 minutes of build-ups and slowdowns and ebbs and flows of a real match. At its most frantic, it's kind of like a Nike advert gone game, rather than the actual sports. It portrays a very idealistic notion of football, one in which the real Messi admits his virtual self to far outperform reality. As such, every team, the AI anyways, plays the same kind of football and strategy, it's mostly direct attacking for most of the game. As soon as the AI wins the ball, they're moving it forward ASAP. Likewise, unlike in FM, Ronaldo's free-kicks barely once miss their target, and North Korea are nicely able to hold possession also. It's damn awesome for what these games are trying to do, the plug&play action you expect to have when picking up a gamepad and having a go at virtual football always at its most adrenaline pumped. The moves are as fluid as your ability allows them to be, the animations are superb, and in the details it can look really realistic when it has far surpassed the point where the real sports can ever be.

As you mentioned Konami's manager based on PES 5 back then: It made no impact whatsoever, perhaps unsurprisingly: http://www.gamerankings.com/ps2/931949-pro-evolution-soccer-management/index.html As in current FIFA Manager, as these reviews suggest, any influence on style and strategy was close to non-existent. In current FIFA Manager, no matter how much you tell your time to waste time and play it save - options for both are actually in the game - they will still get the ball forward ASAP within three to four passes no matter what you do. Try to hold onto possession and a lead with 15 minutes to go? Doesn't work. Trying to play a more risky style to snatch a late equalizer? That is how a match in FIFA manager plays out for both sides for the entire 10ish minutes of play. There is barely anything remotely approaching something that simulates the strategic choices a real manager has to make during a match. I agree with your notion that FM's graphics aren't anywhere near those games. But try FIFA Manager, or PES Soccer Management judging by what the reviews had to say, and you will come back here a different man.

As a very beautiful quote ripped straight from a rewiew on PES Soccer Management has it:

If the dots were so real there would have been no move to 3d of course.

The reviewer was showing his lack of understanding of why people watch and play football. Not for nothing is it called the "beautiful game". His use of the word beautiful in relation to PES betrays his inner desire for a more realistic experience even though intellectually he veers towards the statistical analysis and number crunching of CM/FM.

The manager mode in PES was simply integrated into the main game of course and "Master League" mode is one of the most loved and popular modes among PES players.

Because of PES' condensed nature of course you will not see massive amounts of very slow possession football but it is perfectly possible to shut up shop and kill the game off. Human players especially occasionally get carried away with this enraging online opponents.

If you watch the games carefully though you will see periods of passing play at the back although maybe not as much as an FM fan would like!

The idea that each team plays exactly the same strategy is simply down to not having played the game very much. Every AI and human opponent has their own style and that plays out very strongly in the match engine. In particular the attack/defence settings are very intuitive.

Maybe rent PES 13 for a few days and you will see what I mean.

[Flohrinho]

What's up with those massively over hit free kicks?

I have a free kick about 30 meters away from goal, my players line up and try to find space from their markers, free kick taker steps up ready to find the best header as instructed but in the last second he decides to blast it out of the stadium instead. That will show them, they never gonna find that ball again.

Free kick in my own half, opponents has dropped deep and there are loads of easy passing options available near by but my free kick taker enjoying a great relation ship with the opposition goal keeper decides to hammer it with pin point accuracy directly into his waiting arms. Who needs the ball if you can have friends, right?

Free kicks in this game are just weird.

[Come Clarity]

Gents,

My ambitions are to be constructive, and I seldom post (these days) but this is one of the most frustrating ME's ever released. Certainly as a 'whole package' it feels like a big step back from FM12. I'm sure there are many 'under the hood' changes for the better in the long term, but it doesn't seem to resemble a real football match when you take a step back and consider the whole game for what it is.

- Passes are too perfect; one touch headers or cross pitch volleys despite the ball rocketing towards them like a bullet in the first place, seem to have little problem reaching their intended target. Builds ups are too fluid, too quick too often. There are wonderful examples of teams dancing around defenders, but the frequency with which it occurs in this build is startling.

- The same is reflected in the way in which players are so often able to dance through the midfield, parting defences like Moses at the Red Sea. Defenders seem to have zero physical presence in the face of players running at them.

- There are far too many balls played through and behind the back line; I think it's been addressed but the simulation of 'anticipating' and 'reacting' to runs/passes made seems miles off.

- Midfielders defend far too deep into the penalty leaving far too much room around the 'D' for midfielders to catapult shots towards the goal from just outside the area

- This is dangerously vague, but far too many goals going in from crosses? Perhaps a function of passing being too accurate?

- Players seem insistent on holding onto a ball despite two defenders on them with three other team-mates open around them. JUST PASS IT!

I look forward to the next build

[I_Missed_Penalty]

Fullback defending is horrible, they track winger, than suddenly stop or even go the other way which creates space for the winger to run into and crooss or even dribble all the way to post.

[Viking]

I'm sorry, but I still have a hard time taking the pre-game media predictions and betting company odds seriously. My mid table Championship team meet a mid table Premier league team in some cup, and everyone expect me to win despite I have several key player injuries and bans. And everyone is surprised and disappointed when I lose. Why? Is this stuff only cosmetical randomized nonsense?

[superposh]

What's up with those massively over hit free kicks?

I have a free kick about 30 meters away from goal, my players line up and try to find space from their markers, free kick taker steps up ready to find the best header as instructed but in the last second he decides to blast it out of the stadium instead. That will show them, they never gonna find that ball again.

Free kick in my own half, opponents has dropped deep and there are loads of easy passing options available near by but my free kick taker enjoying a great relation ship with the opposition goal keeper decides to hammer it with pin point accuracy directly into his waiting arms. Who needs the ball if you can have friends, right?

Free kicks in this game are just weird.

This is another thing that is killing my desire to play the game. Very very occasionally I have seen my defender launch a free kick into the box from 60-70 yards and my striker smashes it in on the volley. Satisfying but hardly realistic and certainly that one occasion doesn't make up for the 6-10 free kicks in good positions wasted every game.

[Spart]

If the dots were so real there would have been no move to 3d of course.

The reviewer was showing his lack of understanding of why people watch and play football. Not for nothing is it called the "beautiful game". His use of the word beautiful in relation to PES betrays his inner desire for a more realistic experience even though intellectually he veers towards the statistical analysis and number crunching of CM/FM.

The manager mode in PES was simply integrated into the main game of course and "Master League" mode is one of the most loved and popular modes among PES players.

Because of PES' condensed nature of course you will not see massive amounts of very slow possession football but it is perfectly possible to shut up shop and kill the game off. Human players especially occasionally get carried away with this enraging online opponents.

If you watch the games carefully though you will see periods of passing play at the back although maybe not as much as an FM fan would like!

The idea that each team plays exactly the same strategy is simply down to not having played the game very much. Every AI and human opponent has their own style and that plays out very strongly in the match engine. In particular the attack/defence settings are very intuitive.

Maybe rent PES 13 for a few days and you will see what I mean.

You've again shown your misunderstanding of what the FM match engine tries to achieve.

No ones saying PES can't generate fun and exciting PES-style matches, but they're even less like real football than FM's match engine's efforts. Why would we want to move away from realism to something more arcade-like?

It isn't about how pretty it is to look at or watch, it's about how close it is to creating realistic matches for Barca vs Real, United vs City, Tamworth vs Wrexham, Frigg vs Mo, regardless of how mundane you may find it.

Again, I seriously suggest you start a topic on this to prevent clogging up the general feedback thread. Hell, you could even outline your proposal in one polished and coherent opening post with as many video examples as you want.

Oh, and they didn't really "move away" from the 2D engine. It's still there, and highly usable - some say it's actually better than the 3D due to its strategic, birds eye view. You can still play and enjoy FM with only commentary.

[WizbaII]

You've again shown your misunderstanding of what the FM match engine tries to achieve.

No ones saying PES can't generate fun and exciting PES-style matches, but they're even less like real football than FM's match engine's efforts. Why would we want to move away from realism to something more arcade-like?

It isn't about how pretty it is to look at or watch, it's about how close it is to creating realistic matches for Barca vs Real, United vs City, Tamworth vs Wrexham, Frigg vs Mo, regardless of how mundane you may find it.

Again, I seriously suggest you start a topic on this to prevent clogging up the general feedback thread. Hell, you could even outline your proposal in one polished and coherent opening post with as many video examples as you want.

Oh, and they didn't really "move away" from the 2D engine. It's still there, and highly usable - some say it's actually better than the 3D due to its strategic, birds eye view. You can still play and enjoy FM with only commentary.

If I'm not mistaken, he's not suggesting you adopt the PES engine, just the PES graphics. Not that I agree with him.

[Spart]

If I'm not mistaken, he's not suggesting you adopt the PES engine, just the PES graphics. Not that I agree with him.

See, I thought that at first but he's moved on to talking about how PES' AI, physics and general match engine would be an improvement. It is a very circular argument though (as you can probably see over the last 2/3 pages) so who knows? We could be back to just talking about visuals.

If it were graphics, fair enough, although then you've got the problem of a userbase who already regularly struggle with the tech specs.

[ArcticMonkey]

Anyone know what causes some individual training focus' to change on their own?

[WizbaII]

See, I thought that at first but he's moved on to talking about how PES' AI, physics and general match engine would be an improvement. It is a very circular argument though (as you can probably see over the last 2/3 pages) so who knows? We could be back to just talking about visuals.

If it were graphics, fair enough, although then you've got the problem of a userbase who already regularly struggle with the tech specs.

In that case, I can understand the point he's making. Although as someone pointed out (don't remember who), those engines are designed for 10-15 minutes of play, not 90 minutes. So even if FIFA/PES did have better engines, I'd still prefer FM, which is designed for the 90+ minutes and can actually run for that long. FM is not simply a simulation of the match experience, as these other titles are there to do that for those who want it

[Fancy Gaffot]

10 games gone in my game, Fulham, Newcastle and QPR fire their managers. Fulham are 17th, Newcastle are 13th, both not far away (3-5 points off) from top ten. Surely that's weird? Has anyone else seen early harsh sackings?

[thefonz75]

In that case, I can understand the point he's making. Although as someone pointed out (don't remember who), those engines are designed for 10-15 minutes of play, not 90 minutes. So even if FIFA/PES did have better engines, I'd still prefer FM, which is designed for the 90+ minutes and can actually run for that long. FM is not simply a simulation of the match experience, as these other titles are there to do that for those who want it

The Fm match engine does not run for 90 minutes...

[Spart]

The Fm match engine does not run for 90 minutes...

It does 90 mins and more if you watch the full game rather than highlights.

[hluraven]

The Fm match engine does not run for 90 minutes...

Yes, it does. One of the changes brought in with FM13 that couldn't be accomodated with the FM12 ME.

[Kriss]

If the dots were so real there would have been no move to 3d of course.

The reviewer was showing his lack of understanding of why people watch and play football. Not for nothing is it called the "beautiful game". His use of the word beautiful in relation to PES betrays his inner desire for a more realistic experience even though intellectually he veers towards the statistical analysis and number crunching of CM/FM.

The manager mode in PES was simply integrated into the main game of course and "Master League" mode is one of the most loved and popular modes among PES players.

Because of PES' condensed nature of course you will not see massive amounts of very slow possession football but it is perfectly possible to shut up shop and kill the game off. Human players especially occasionally get carried away with this enraging online opponents.

If you watch the games carefully though you will see periods of passing play at the back although maybe not as much as an FM fan would like!

The idea that each team plays exactly the same strategy is simply down to not having played the game very much. Every AI and human opponent has their own style and that plays out very strongly in the match engine. In particular the attack/defence settings are very intuitive.

Maybe rent PES 13 for a few days and you will see what I mean.

I have to admit to a grave error of judgement in directing you to this thread but I had no idea you were going to act as salesman for the PES engine.

Feel free to start a thread on the subject so those of us who want to can ignore it, it's taking up too much space in this thread to no purpose.

[thefonz75]

See, I thought that at first but he's moved on to talking about how PES' AI, physics and general match engine would be an improvement. It is a very circular argument though (as you can probably see over the last 2/3 pages) so who knows? We could be back to just talking about visuals.

If it were graphics, fair enough, although then you've got the problem of a userbase who already regularly struggle with the tech specs.

I'm talking about the general development philosophy - it has to be based around a coherent vision.

[Spart]

I'm talking about the general development philosophy - it has to be based around a coherent vision.

I'd argue that's exactly what the new match engine shows SI are pursuing.

Anyway, you've got the go ahead from Kriss. Let's stop clogging up the feedback thread and move this to a new one, ok?

[ArcticMonkey]

Anyone know what causes some individual training focus' to change on their own?

[hluraven]

Anyone know what causes some individual training focus' to change on their own?

I believe that it is a bug that occurs sometimes after using player comparison. At least, some training changes occur rarely when using that, so I'm guessing it's the same thing.

[Welshace]

That's the last I want to hear about PES on here....

[ArcticMonkey]

One little annoyance with FM13 compared to past versions; when you're playing a match it is easy to miss cards/offsides because there is no alert bar in the middle of the screen. Instead, you have to keep your eye on the info section top right. Anyway of getting pop up alerts back?

[WizbaII]

Anyone know what causes some individual training focus' to change on their own?

Lol, if you insist...it's probably a bug. You're probably looking for the bugs forum, then. Unless you asked someone else to manage training.

[hluraven]

One little annoyance with FM13 compared to past versions; when you're playing a match it is easy to miss cards/offsides because there is no alert bar in the middle of the screen. Instead, you have to keep your eye on the info section top right. Anyway of getting pop up alerts back?

I definitely agree with this, I really miss the pop-ups on offsides/fouls etc. The match feed is great for things like goals around the league/assistant feedback, but shouldn't have crucial match info there only.

[Raest]

I'm an experienced player. Extensively read WWFan's posts, especially his talk of 'dynamic' formations for FM12. And I've always been mindful of these when setting up tactics.

I even played FMLive (The Bridgeburners on Vald), so I'm used to changes in the ME and adapting. But this is by far the most frustrating time I've had with the series. In the full fat version I tend to LMA, and frankly it just horrible at the mo. I seem to have no answer to the bottom of the league syndrome.

To me it feels like there's something crucially wrong somewhere. I'd love to blame the ME, but I can see the untapped potential there. (Current fixlist should help alot) Is the problem elsewhere?

Matches are not decided before the start of a game. So there must be other factors (besides the ME) that combine to produce what's going to happen in a given circumstance. I'm seeing a lot of wild swings in mentality (complacent/fired up etc). Especially in the high scoring matches...Part of me says 'duh ofc it would'...But maybe it's a pointer.

I'm a QA person, and I really hate being so vague.

It could also be a few minor variances adding up, to produce unbalanced behaviour. (carefully worded) I think we just have to give them some time. So I've retired the long term save for now. Started the youth challenge with Liverpool... But got some very nice wingers. That's banked too.

Sigh.

Time to start a throw away save, to report some bugs then I guess.. Just feels like work tho 8(

[slipknot67]

That's the last I want to hear about PES on here....

Realistic matches have to start with the key areas of the match - the key action itself which is the battle for possession ie tackles etc, goalmouth action and the animation of the players. Without that the illusion is badly shattered.

Watch any real match and the key action is similar to what you see in PES. Some of the more boring aspects of the game are distilled out of the action but there is no reason why the PES game engine could be slowed down and the SI team could then work on translating their tactics into that more realistic match graphics engine.

Even with the current emphasis of PES on action it STILL manages to create matches that seem very realistic to many fans.

i might create a thread over the next few days time permitting.

For gods sake take the hint

[Fancy Gaffot]

Mid November in my game, lots of stars are transfer listed. Hamsik, Cavani, Muniain, Lamela, Mata, Cahill, Doumbia, Eriksen.

[Guest]

Lot of problems I was having seem to have vanished since last update , Im on a good run with Arsenal and have not conceded a goal in 3 games , still a few minor issues with defence but its improved a lot

defenders are at times slow to react but luckily my gk has made some great saves when this happens which explains why he gets the odd potm

performance.

[Flohrinho]

Here is another thing I really have a problem with in the FM ME.

A problem that actually exists at least since FM11.

Why is it that players who are closed down usually react to this by turning their back to the opponent and wait for the tackle which then either results in losing the ball or a foul or both.

How come no one in the ME team saw this and thought "Hey that's not really realistic behavior, that looks totally stupid."

I know this stuff is cause by time wasting and a lack of passing options, things that happen in RL as well but I never see a player just stand there with his back to an opponent waiting for what ever might happen.

How a bout a player tries to dribble past an incoming player if he has no passing options, like real players do it, if he is dribbling he might lose the ball but it's still better then just standing there.