*Official* Football Manager 2013 Constructive non-ME Feedback Thread

[shirajzl]

I have a feeling that people who are shelving the game until the ME update is released are simply doing it out of all the wrong reasons. The update will fix some aspects in the 'visual' reality of the ME and maybe include a few tweaks in the setting departments - but it won't change the mechanics that build up the game. A lot of people seems to be hooked up on certain instances they see during games, but a lot of it is simply cosmetic. You see, it doesn't always matter that this or that player, for example, doesn't tackle a certain ball even though he is standing basically right next to it - what you should be thinking about is why it is happening. You have to learn how to interpret what is going on in the ME, because in a strange way, it is actually trying to tell you something is not right. It is just as apparent when it shows what you are doing right...

This game is game of attacking and defending. The tactical settings create a certain overall 'value' which is constantly compared to your upcomming opponent and during matches, these things really matter to get right if you are going to do better than worse in the long run. That is the reason behind the mulitple strategies, in short you have to learn how to play the game (when to attack, defend or a little bit of both). The 'tactical familiarity' and gelling importance are aspects that I think a lot of people underestimate, also you have to understand how to use training more or less correctly. When you get all of these things working to your advantage, I can safely say that you start to experience a whole different game.

Of course, you might still experience some freak incidents - like when my defender scored two own goals in two games on the trot (he was a young back-up and had to use him due to injuries). When I looked at his stats then I realised he had 4 in concentration. These type of things will occur from time to time, you just have to pay more detail to certain things if you want to get the most out of the advanced FM game...

It could take some time to get the club/squad looking and working the way you want it to, so to get to this point I think a lot of people will have to roll their socks up. The ME is definately not broken...

You're back for FM 13? You seemed to be under the radar during FM 12, no tactical discussions or anything. Did you play FM 12?

[daylight]

In my save 20th placed Reading just beat 3rd place Manchester United 6-0. I guess no-one told Sir Alex to tweak his tactics for the big games!

If the new zeitgeist for this version is to be "see what your opponent is doing and adjust to counter it", thats a bit of a shame - personally I'm a fan of playing the way I want my team to play and forcing the opposition to adapt to my team. Isnt there room for both approaches to be successful?

I have been debating if I should post what happened in my save last night as I am sure people are going to say it was my tactics or my players were over confident but after this post I thought I would share.

After an okay start to the season my team have gelled and are playing really well,we have a really good team with players from all over the place and quite the line up for a BSP side.

Anyway,we are in 2nd place and about to play the team 3rd from bottom,I have to say I am confident as they have not scored many goals but have let quite a few in,as you would expect as they are 3rd from bottom.

The game starts and after exactly 23 minutes we are 5-0 down!..yes 23 minutes!

Like I said I am sure people will say "your team were over confident" but just for the record,my team could have been eating Big Macs and drinking milk shakes and not have been 5-0 down after 23 minutes.

I keep going back to the game as I am a massive CM/FM fan but this time I just have to stop and wait for it to be fixed(hopefully).No team in 2nd place should be 5-0 down after 23 minutes while playing 3rd from bottom.

Nothing to do with tactics,the games randomness is ruining this years release for me.

[Kriss]

See, its packed with bugs

To be serious. I hope they tweak so that if you take over a club struggling in the bottom with ten games to play, the board should demand avoid relegation no matter what the start of season expectations were. Game doesn't seem to take that into account. If you're placed 18 with 10 games to go its hard to make top half of the table. Morale is terrible at the point you take over, so the board needs to give you time to turn it around.

Tbh I was doing fine until I started tinkering with tactics should have known better.

[ima92]

Off the bat, I would say that normally you wouldn't be using the same tactics for those scenarios. It's could be a case of being cautious in terms of settings, it takes a different plan to break down teams that are playing defensively/tight than you would be playing a team that would be attacking you. You have the options in the game to tackle those type of scenarios, it's a game of attacking and defending - it pays to understand when to do what...

I would also point out that I am merely telling you how I think that the game is 'set up'. It might not fall into the category that some people would like to see, but none the less, it's how I think that this ME 'mechanism' works...

But it's not like the tactics didn't work, I got around 60-65% possession and around 15-19 shots on those games, but the semi professional teams got around 2-4 shots and won while I couldn't score any of my chances.

And I did change tactics too, even formations itself, to become more offensive, same result, lots of possession and shots, and the other team scores with 2 or 3 shots..

And of course, if I just click instant result with same tactics and players against those teams, I get a more realistic result like 3-1 or 3-0.

other than that this is my only complaint about me, excluding moonwalked defenders or free kicks that jus hit woodwork every time, which ain't that annoying since they apply to both sides, it does really seem that weaker teams have more chances against stronger teams.. Is also reflected on league table where teams expected to be winning are at mid table and tea,s expected to fight relegation are on top...

About that, another thing I'd like to point out, is match odds and expectations from fans when against a weaker team which is clearly over performing, like in my save, spezzia is in the top of the serie B by around 6 points but fans still expect an easy win and get angered even if I draw to them who come from a 6 match winning streak... I think expectations should be more related to current rival team performance and not just to the reputation

[WizbaII]

Maybe, Idk.

But if you watch two computer controlled teams play each other in say Fifa 12 (haven't bought 13 yet) It looks so much better than FM. I'm not just talking about the graphics, but realism, (player decisions, player runs, when to put in the tackle, when and where they pass etc).

So I don't flat out buy that the FM ME is so much better and years ahead of the Fifa ME. Maybe less is more?

That may be true, but can you watch it for 90 minutes?

[Leander]

I like almost all new improvements in game, but the engine itself is just comedy (not funny though). I got used to misses from 1 meter, because in this game it's normal, I got used to situations when opponent has 1 single shot on target and scores (and 2/3 shots at all), I accepted the fact that my team is always extremely unlucky, while opponent is always extremely lucky at the same time, but when Cristiano Ronaldo scored a goal in 93. minute from a half, after my GK passed the ball to him from free kick, was just too much for me.

[Butters76]

That may be true, but can you watch it for 90 minutes?

Yes, you can set each half to 45 mins, I never do though.

[Butters76]

I like almost all new improvements in game, but the engine itself is just comedy (not funny though). I got used to misses from 1 meter, because in this game it's normal, I got used to situations when opponent has 1 single shot on target and scores (and 2/3 shots at all), I accepted the fact that my team is always extremely unlucky, while opponent is always extremely lucky at the same time, but when Cristiano Ronaldo scored a goal in 93. minute from a half, after my GK passed the ball to him from free kick, was just too much for me.

Hehe, I saw one simular too. My gk took a free kick not too far from the corner flag hoofed it pretty far, but got busy picking garbage the crown threw onto the pitch or something. He didn't start moving back to the goal before the shot from the midline was taken and ofcoz never made it back in time. I didn't know wheter I should cry or laugh. I did the latter.

[Sharpy07]

When Paul C himself calls it "a little rough" ............

Will eb good when we get the version wwfan and the moderators are playing though !

Where does it say about them playing a different version?

[WizbaII]

Yes, you can set each half to 45 mins, I never do though.

Then maybe SI could take a few tips from FIFA's book? Not speaking animation- or graphics-wise, just gameplay-wise.

[daylight]

Where does it say about them playing a different version?

He was being sarcastic as wwfan and some other mods keep saying that the ME is not that bad and that it is our tactics that are wrong

[Cornfleek]

The "customer is always right" types and people logging in with their inflated senses of entitlement and importance have become a serious problem on here.

I purchased my entitlement when buying this game. The people you seem to have a serious problem with have just as much entitlement and importance as people who think the ME is the best thing since sliced bread.

[Os]

I purchased my entitlement when buying this game. The people you seem to have a serious problem with have just as much entitlement and importance as people who think the ME is the best thing since sliced bread.

Everybody has choice, if you don't like it don't play it.

I'm all for constructive criticism in trying to improve the game but this year it appears that the "I want it and I want it now" children are in abundance.

SI is a business and trade in a market, their success or failure is dictated by this so just don't buy it. Everybody had access to the demo version of the game and from this could make up their mind whether to purchase or not.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Everybody has choice, if you don't like it don't play it.

I'm all for constructive criticism in trying to improve the game but this year it appears that the "I want it and I want it now" children are in abundance.

SI is a business and trade in a market, their success or failure is dictated by this so just don't buy it. Everybody had access to the demo version of the game and from this could make up their mind whether to purchase or not.

As long as it's gushing praise ?

I'm not sure how people debating flaws with the ME equates to the "want it now" crowd demanding something.

I like FM 13, I'm playing it now , but I can fully understand how people would expect a simulation game to ship with a ME that is a little better than "rough around the edges". I honestly doubt the SI team are happy with the quality of the release.

With that said the ME does show massive potential and I'm sure with the life cycle of FM13 to refine it that FM 14 will be excellent.

[Kriss]

As long as it's gushing praise ?

I'm not sure how people debating flaws with the ME equates to the "want it now" crowd demanding something.

I like FM 13, I'm playing it now , but I can fully understand how people would expect a simulation game to ship with a ME that is a little better than "rough around the edges". I honestly doubt the SI team are happy with the quality of the release.

With that said the ME does show massive potential and I'm sure with the life cycle of FM13 to refine it that FM 14 will be excellent.

Sums it up very well except I'm confident FM13 will be excellent, now can we give it a rest because there are two sides to every arguement and in this case neither side are entirely wrong

[Guest]

The latest update seems to have changed the way players shoot from distance, I know before there was too many goals from distance from a lot of average players but now my players

seem to be way off the mark when shooting from just outside the box?

[WizbaII]

The latest update seems to have changed the way players shoot from distance, I know before there was too many goals from distance from a lot of average players but now my players

seem to be way off the mark when shooting from just outside the box?

Nothing out of the ordinary.

[ajw10]

So I've just won a match with PSG 2-1. But I'm still not happy.

So many times top players like Ibra and Pastore collected the ball in the middle of the box and turned and passed. Yet they are happy to shoot from 20 plus yards despite there being better options. Oh and guess how I conceded my goal? Thats right, due to my players refusing to press.

Oh and wide players They just refuse to cross at all.All mine do is shoot into the near net.

[Lohan]

After much researched in international forums, seeing the general complaint about the game's difficulty and bugs, I started using some tips and really began to take effect, some things have already been posted here.

* In training put ¨ ¨ Cohesion team until the bars become full, then switch to what u want

* Tactics can be according to the quality of their players, but I realized that if simpler tactics get better results faster

* In Control ¨ ¨ instruction set and the rest leave everything in Default, go slowly adjusting it as they are passing games

I did not think the game actually harder, he's more real in some aspects, such as whether to buy a revelation, now comes out much more expensive, as you would in real life, the whole 3D engine has been reworked in this version, the IS already was announcing it, and took two years doing this, then tactics that worked in previous FMs will no longer function normally, for example in real life, players are not as static sets certain tactics in the old engine, and many benefited from it , for example, was only put online deep, go straight and have a fast striker as well, something else, now the engagement is one of the key factors for achieving win, a tactic even having the right players, it will take more time to obtain best results.

Unfortunately, the new engine has some bugs so bizarre that they promised to fix in the next patch, major complaints are donkeys and amnesia quarterbacks like lost children on field huahuahua, give no combat, just mark up and let the attackers go through them, I could greatly improve this by analyzing each detail individual alteration sliders in the midfiers down too much to help the defense, leaving plenty of room in the midfield area to the entrance of risking conceding a goal from a distance, I could get around this by putting a steering wheel hard and scoring with much pressure, marking hxh, now has more headed goals coming from crosses as actually took corners of the bug, but there are still a huge amount of balls in the beam than other versions, goals and shots are more beautiful and varied, so overall I really liked this version

Sorry my english

[wwfan]

It's obvious there are some serious flaws with the ME in the state it's in now and to be honest I'm finding it really irritating to have people like wwfan posting condescending, passive-aggressive replies to people who are frustrated with what they're experiencing and are trying to explain the issues they're facing. Setting up a solid defence seems to be almost impossible at the moment, whether you try to sit deep and limit chances or push high up to prevent the opposition getting near your box. The players for both the AI and human-controlled teams just do not know where the ball is half the time, and it's infuriating to watch.

I can see the potential in the ME as it is, and every now and then you can see what SI are trying to do with it in the way the play is moved around. I'm confident that the next release will iron out a lot of the problems, but at the moment this is probably the most annoying and confusing ME I've played since the series began.

Yet again, I've agreed that there are many issue with the ME, including poor final third closing down, too many bad decision long shots or extreme angles shots, poor support pressing, defensive players vacating the wings, etc, etc. However, as I've stated previously, that does not mean I think the ME is perfect. Far from it. I am just trying to mediate the frustration people are experiencing by giving some friendly advice about tactics logic based on knowledge of how things should be working. If you are badly losing winnable matches or getting random results, the problem is undoubtedly tactical, not inherent to the ME. People who have followed the advice I've given have, like me, achieved great success and are not getting horribly frustrated by the ME either. Almost certainly, the key reason for this is the massive improvement in the structural integrity of the ME, especially the collision detection and ball physics.

People need to understand that if the AI is able to have a secure defence, or cross balls, or successfully counter attack, or do anything the user can't do, then the user can do it too. The AI has no advantages over the user. The ME has no idea which team is an AI team and which team is a user team. If something is constantly happening to you and not the AI, it is a tactical not ME issue.

SI have accepted there is some kind of an issue with attacking tactics, which might be the route cause of certain users struggling and lower ranked teams doing better than expected. As far as I can tell, this is the only aspect in which logically good tactical settings might be producing unrealistically poor performance in the ME. Every other 'OMG, the ME is terrible because I have no consistency' is almost certainly down to something the user is doing.

To clarify, I think it is a good thing that users playing a single target point tactic which feeds all balls through to a lone forward whose only job is to slot them home are struggling. nearly all the failing tactics being posted or talked about seem to be of this type. That is indicative of how much the ME has improved structurally. These tactics would fail in reality, yet, previously, due to the lack of collision detection, have always done well in FM. For example, all the debate this season about Darren Bent relates to his only being willing/able to play a single target point in a lone forward tactic, resulting in his manager dropping him for a forward who offers more to the team. I might be wrong, but I very much doubt any ME change will result in users experiencing random or terrible results suddenly finding the game much easier again, because from where I'm sitting, the reason for them doing badly is nearly always down to a poorly structured tactic. The only way I will be wrong is if the attacking tactics flaw is causing nearly all the hurt to everyone complaining.

One of the things I find interesting is people complaining about their players running away from the ball. I simply do not see that in my games. I would agree that players aren't reacting well to balls they could intercept or loose balls that have deflected into a direction that players weren't expecting, but I never see players run away from balls they are clear favourites to get to. Yet it obviously happens. This is where reading / fixing the ME is tricky. This example is a case in point:

It's perfectly clear that the player who disengages from the defence in order to rush up pitch is doing something really stupid. Is it the ME or is it tactical? Or is it a bit of both? Almost certainly the third. I suspect the player in question has strict instructions to man-mark a certain player. Half way through the attack, he starts to follow those instructions. What results is comedy gold. However, when fixing the ME, you need to take into consideration the tactical logic. If he had been given a man-marking job to do and extremely low CF, he's basically doing what the manager told him 'mark player x, no matter what'. In contrast, there should be some form of broken play logic that makes him disregard those instructions. The challenge for Paul is getting the balance right.

The problem here is almost the sheer variety of options the sliders / TC give the user. Man marking has been abandoned in real life because it results in players not knowing who to mark when faced with fluid tactical shapes. Consequently, barely any team man marks nowadays, and if they do, the players who man mark always relates to the tactical system employed (typically the DCL & DCR in a 3/5-man back line and the MCs in front of a 4-man back line). Wingers and full backs never man mark. Yet, in FM, Paul has to code the ME to react properly to man marking instructions across the pitch. The player in the above video is probably actually confronting the type of issue that in reality managers dealt with 40 odd years ago, being who to mark in a fluid situation. Stay in position and leave the man you are supposed to be marking unattended or go to mark him and leave open space?

My argument about many of the problems being tactical extends from here. If players are following tactical instructions that are illogical or channel balls to a single target point, we can only expect play to look bad and results to be random. If the AI shuts off that target, then the user's tactic has no bite. If the tactic then has defensive setting issues, then it will get torn apart on the counter. This issue might be made worse by an ME issue with attacking tactics, but the tactical settings are almost certainly flawed as well. How do I know? Because it isn't happening to me or the the people who have followed my advice. Simply put, if your tactics are football logical and create chances in multiple ways, you will almost certainly be enjoying FM13, despite the ME problems. If your tactics aren't so logical, then I don't think an ME update will help that much, as your results will probably still be random.

[ajw10]

So I've just won a match with PSG 2-1. But I'm still not happy.

So many times top players like Ibra and Pastore collected the ball in the middle of the box and turned and passed. Yet they are happy to shoot from 20 plus yards despite there being better options. Oh and guess how I conceded my goal? Thats right, due to my players refusing to press.

Oh and wide players They just refuse to cross at all.All mine do is shoot into the near net.

Ah same thing is happening although this time I'm losing 2-0. It's just unplayable Absolute disgrace that this game went on sale.

Like, I have a top class left back in Patrice Evra at the club. He just refuses to tackle? How is this acceptable? How does this mirror real life football?

[Guest]

Yet again, I've agreed that there are many issue with the ME, including poor final third closing down, too many bad decision long shots or extreme angles shots, poor support pressing, defensive players vacating the wings, etc, etc. However, as I've stated previously, that does not mean I think the ME is perfect. Far from it. I am just trying to mediate the frustration people are experiencing by giving some friendly advice about tactics logic based on knowledge of how things should be working. If you are badly losing winnable matches or getting random results, the problem is undoubtedly tactical, not inherent to the ME. People who have followed the advice I've given have, like me, achieved great success and are not getting horribly frustrated by the ME either. Almost certainly, the key reason for this is the massive improvement in the structural integrity of the ME, especially the collision detection and ball physics.

People need to understand that if the AI is able to have a secure defence, or cross balls, or successfully counter attack, or do anything the user can't do, then the user can do it too. The AI has no advantages over the user. The ME has no idea which team is an AI team and which team is a user team. If something is constantly happening to you and not the AI, it is a tactical not ME issue.

SI have accepted there is some kind of an issue with attacking tactics, which might be the route cause of certain users struggling and lower ranked teams doing better than expected. As far as I can tell, this is the only aspect in which logically good tactical settings might be producing unrealistically poor performance in the ME. Every other 'OMG, the ME is terrible because I have no consistency' is almost certainly down to something the user is doing.

To clarify, I think it is a good thing that users playing a single target point tactic which feeds all balls through to a lone forward whose only job is to slot them home are struggling. nearly all the failing tactics being posted or talked about seem to be of this type. That is indicative of how much the ME has improved structurally. These tactics would fail in reality, yet, previously, due to the lack of collision detection, have always done well in FM. For example, all the debate this season about Darren Bent relates to his only being willing/able to play a single target point in a lone forward tactic, resulting in his manager dropping him for a forward who offers more to the team. I might be wrong, but I very much doubt any ME change will result in users experiencing random or terrible results suddenly finding the game much easier again, because from where I'm sitting, the reason for them doing badly is nearly always down to a poorly structured tactic. The only way I will be wrong is if the attacking tactics flaw is causing nearly all the hurt to everyone complaining.

One of the things I find interesting is people complaining about their players running away from the ball. I simply do not see that in my games. I would agree that players aren't reacting well to balls they could intercept or loose balls that have deflected into a direction that players weren't expecting, but I never see players run away from balls they are clear favourites to get to. Yet it obviously happens. This is where reading / fixing the ME is tricky. This example is a case in point:

It's perfectly clear that the player who disengages from the defence in order to rush up pitch is doing something really stupid. Is it the ME or is it tactical? Or is it a bit of both? Almost certainly the third. I suspect the player in question has strict instructions to man-mark a certain player. Half way through the attack, he starts to follow those instructions. What results is comedy gold. However, when fixing the ME, you need to take into consideration the tactical logic. If he had been given a man-marking job to do and extremely low CF, he's basically doing what the manager told him 'mark player x, no matter what'. In contrast, there should be some form of broken play logic that makes him disregard those instructions. The challenge for Paul is getting the balance right.

The problem here is almost the sheer variety of options the sliders / TC give the user. Man marking has been abandoned in real life because it results in players not knowing who to mark when faced with fluid tactical shapes. Consequently, barely any team man marks nowadays, and if they do, the players who man mark always relates to the tactical system employed (typically the DCL & DCR in a 3/5-man back line and the MCs in front of a 4-man back line). Wingers and full backs never man mark. Yet, in FM, Paul has to code the ME to react properly to man marking instructions across the pitch. The player in the above video is probably actually confronting the type of issue that in reality managers dealt with 40 odd years ago, being who to mark in a fluid situation. Stay in position and leave the man you are supposed to be marking unattended or go to mark him and leave open space?

My argument about many of the problems being tactical extends from here. If players are following tactical instructions that are illogical or channel balls to a single target point, we can only expect play to look bad and results to be random. If the AI shuts off that target, then the user's tactic has no bite. If the tactic then has defensive setting issues, then it will get torn apart on the counter. This issue might be made worse by an ME issue with attacking tactics, but the tactical settings are almost certainly flawed as well. How do I know? Because it isn't happening to me or the the people who have followed my advice. Simply put, if your tactics are football logical and create chances in multiple ways, you will almost certainly be enjoying FM13, despite the ME problems. If your tactics aren't so logical, then I don't think an ME update will help that much, as your results will probably still be random.

I appreciate the detailed response but you're looking a user base full of people who have spent practically their entire lives playing this game and most of us know when a problem is ME-related and not tactical. I am not here complaining about losing matches or unfair results favouring the AI. I am here complaining about the obvious flaws with the match engine.

It's not so much players running away from the ball, it's the fact that they seem oblivious to where it is. I would be really interested in watching a saved match that you've played to see how this doesn't occur at all for you because I see it in practically every match.

[Cornfleek]

SI is a business and trade in a market, their success or failure is dictated by this so just don't buy it. Everybody had access to the demo version of the game and from this could make up their mind whether to purchase or not.

True, I pre-ordered, and will not do so again. I've bought 10, 11 and 12 from the start and had great fun with it straight away, hence a pre-order was in place.

Sums it up very well except I'm confident FM13 will be excellent, now can we give it a rest because there are two sides to every arguement and in this case neither side are entirely wrong

Simply put, if your tactics are football logical and create chances in multiple ways, you will almost certainly be enjoying FM13, despite the ME problems. If your tactics aren't so logical, then I don't think an ME update will help that much, as your results will probably still be random.

Perhaps you mods should give the arguments a rest as well, I agree with Kriss here. I believe wwfan's post is a re-iteration of the statement that "it's the tactics, not the ME", just more oil on the flames IMHO.

[Guest]

Perhaps you mods should give the arguments a rest as well, I agree with Kriss here. I believe wwfan's post is a re-iteration of the statement that "it's the tactics, not the ME", just more oil on the flames IMHO.

Have to say I agree with this.

[I_Missed_Penalty]

You know what is the most shocking thing about this game with the current ME? That it becomes BORING after a while because all matches are exactly the same. Iam tired of this game and I have played it only for two weeks. Unless the new update comes out and makes the matches more variable in terms of build up and finishing of moves of the team I will not continue playing it. FM 13: pass to winger, winger passes it back to fullback, fullback runs towards corner, stops, passes it pack to winger who passes it to midfielder who takes a long shot, boom...corner. Pass to winger, winger passes it......

[wwfan]

I appreciate the detailed response but you're looking a user base full of people who have spent practically their entire lives playing this game and most of us know when a problem is ME-related and not tactical. I am not here complaining about losing matches or unfair results favouring the AI. I am here complaining about the obvious flaws with the match engine.

It's not so much players running away from the ball, it's the fact that they seem oblivious to where it is. I would be really interested in watching a saved match that you've played to see how this doesn't occur at all for you because I see it in practically every match.

I accept that players seem to lose awareness of where the ball is. It is annoying. However, I do not accept that all of the complaints here are unbiased analyses of the ME. Yours might be, but many of the complaints relate to "unfair" losses. People losing matches they think they should win always, always results in claims the ME is broken. The problem SI face is separating the wheat from the chaff.

Perhaps you mods should give the arguments a rest as well, I agree with Kriss here. I believe wwfan's post is a re-iteration of the statement that "it's the tactics, not the ME", just more oil on the flames IMHO.

Please read my opening statement where I agree that the ME has many flaws. Please also take on board that illogical tactics are going to be the cause of many user issues. My statement is "it is the ME and users' tactics", which has been supported by the number of people having success and enjoying the game by switching to a football logical structure after following my advice.

At no stage in any of my posts have I stated the ME is perfect. People seem to be interpreting my posts as blind defences of the ME. My posts are simply suggesting to people seeing randomness and horrible performance that looking at their tactical logic might be useful to them. Unfortunately, that advice seems to cause terrible offence.

[Guest]

My posts are simply suggesting to people seeing randomness and horrible performance that looking at their tactical logic might be useful to them. Unfortunately, that advice seems to cause terrible offence.

Do you honestly not see how writing something like the below could offend people?

Simply put, if your tactics are football logical and create chances in multiple ways, you will almost certainly be enjoying FM13, despite the ME problems. If your tactics aren't so logical, then I don't think an ME update will help that much, as your results will probably still be random.

Basically, that's implying that anyone who is not enjoying FM2013 doesn't know anything about football tactics. It's not what I would expect from a moderator because it's (very subtle) baiting and I guarantee you would not hear anyone from SI speak to the members of the forum in such a manner.

[Cornfleek]

At no stage in any of my posts have I stated the ME is perfect. People seem to be interpreting my posts as blind defences of the ME. My posts are simply suggesting to people seeing randomness and horrible performance that looking at their tactical logic might be useful to them. Unfortunately, that advice seems to cause terrible offence.

:-). No mate, no offence taken, this is the internet, everyone has an opinion.

My guess is some people who don't like the ME are a bit annoyed by the fact that you hint at their tactics being 'not so logical' and stating that if their tactics would be 'logical' that they would have a great time playing the game. And since they are clearly not (and these are players like me that have played this game with great joy for almost two decades), you are indirectly saying they use bad tactics. Which is where the terms 'passive-agressive' and 'condescending' come in. This in combination with you being a mod and being endorsed by the devs that made the ME as a tactical guru ('listen to wwfan, he knows what he's talking about' Paul said I believe?) is what I call putting oil on the fire.

edit: lol, ninja-ed by tubbycrabs

[daylight]

Do you honestly not see how writing something like the below could offend people?

Basically, that's implying that anyone who is not enjoying FM2013 doesn't know anything about football tactics. It's not what I would expect from a moderator because it's (very subtle) baiting and I guarantee you would not hear anyone from SI speak to the members of the forum in such a manner.

wwfan has been doing this since release,I can not believe after some 2 weeks it is still being allowed,if this was a normal poster they would have received warnings for baiting other users.

With so many complaints and even people at SI saying the ME and highlights need work posters still have to put up with "it's your tactics",it is so frustrating to keep reading this.

It would maybe not be such a bad thing that the mods that feel like defending the ME maybe take a step back and let players just vent their frustration for a while until the new update goes live,instead of telling players how they should enjoy the game.

It really is frustrating to read every day.

[wwfan]

Do you honestly not see how writing something like the below could offend people?

Basically, that's implying that anyone who is not enjoying FM2013 doesn't know anything about football tactics. It's not what I would expect from a moderator because it's (very subtle) baiting and I guarantee you would not hear anyone from SI speak to the members of the forum in such a manner.

I'll try to be as polite as possible.

I designed the TC, which feeds directly into the logic the AI accesses for its tactics. I know the exact logic informing the TC, AI and ME. I expect to see certain playing styles fail. Even PaulC defers to me in terms of the theoretical logic of the TC. When I talk about how tactics should work in FM, it is from the horse's mouth.

From everything I've seen in this feedback thread and over the years since the TC started informing the AI and ME, I've not seen one example of a coherent, move between the lines tactic fail. I have, however, seen countless examples of incoherent, static or one dimensional tactics fail. Everything I've read here and the tactics I've seen posted all support my argument that many users are:

1. Randomly picking settings
   
2. Relying on one dimensional tactics that should be easy for the AI to defend
   

Historically, users have been able to do well with both types of tactic by "beating" the ME. The structural changes in the FM13 ME are stopping this from happening. This informs my argument that the FM13 ME is a huge improvement from the FM12 ME, despite its obvious flaws. Hence, users are having to change their approach to succeed. Part of this mindset change is accepting that what you were doing before might not be football logical, but ME busting. A large number of people who have accepted this are doing extremely well, even posting that they are enjoying FM more than ever since doing so.

I can't help if my advice offends you. That is your perogative. However, it doesn't stop it from being good or the right advice.

[ajw10]

Ah same thing is happening although this time I'm losing 2-0. It's just unplayable Absolute disgrace that this game went on sale.

Like, I have a top class left back in Patrice Evra at the club. He just refuses to tackle? How is this acceptable? How does this mirror real life football?

Oh it gets better. Zlatan Ibrahimovic is one on one with the goalkeeper and... turns around and passes backwards. We lose the ball and my rb ends up getting sent off.

[Cornfleek]

I can't help if my advice offends you. That is your perogative. However, it doesn't stop it from being good or the right advice.

Dude, do you even read what other people have to say :-).

We know where you stand, we know how SI thinks of you, we know how you think of yourself (in that way this was an insightful post), and some people are still not happy with the ME, and still don't believe it's their tactics like you suggest. Like Kriss said, maybe we (which includes you) should give it a rest.

[Apos]

I'll try to be as polite as possible.

I designed the TC, which feeds directly into the logic the AI accesses for its tactics. I know the exact logic informing the TC, AI and ME. I expect to see certain playing styles fail. Even PaulC defers to me in terms of the theoretical logic of the TC. When I talk about how tactics should work in FM, it is from the horse's mouth.

From everything I've seen in this feedback thread and over the years since the TC started informing the AI and ME, I've not seen one example of a coherent, move between the lines tactic fail. I have, however, seen countless examples of incoherent, static or one dimensional tactics fail. Everything I've read here and the tactics I've seen posted all support my argument that many users are:

1. Randomly picking settings
   
2. Relying on one dimensional tactics that should be easy for the AI to defend
   

Historically, users have been able to do well with both types of tactic by "beating" the ME. The structural changes in the FM13 ME are stopping this from happening. This informs my argument that the FM13 ME is a huge improvement from the FM12 ME, despite its obvious flaws. Hence, users are having to change their approach to succeed. Part of this mindset change is accepting that what you were doing before might not be football logical, but ME busting. A large number of people who have accepted this are doing extremely well, even posting that they are enjoying FM more than ever since doing so.

I can't help if my advice offends you. That is your perogative. However, it doesn't stop it from being good or the right advice.

And what about players who use actually football logical tactics, yet they find the ME punishing them just as much?

Who decides what is "football logical" or not? The ME designers or actual football? Every year there are many actually solid tactics that the ME fails to cope with. That's not an improvement, but neither a step back, it's just going around in circles, having the same mistakes happen in different places each year.

One year it's crossing, other it's winger, next year it will be midfielders or whatever, that's barely an improvement. It's just a stalemate.

[wwfan]

It's obviously a total waste of my time trying to help. Enjoy your game.

[treble_yell_:-)]

I should probably say at this point that since reading wwfan's post about using a simple tactic from the pull down and tweaking for individual strengths , I have went 15 games unbeaten with Spurs and played some rather attractive football.

That's not to say that I don't want to launch my mouse across the room when Lennon runs to the byline and tries to shoot again, but he does know his stuff. It will be a while before I go back to trying to make complicated tactics using the TC.

[daylight]

I will say this,

If FM has come down to the fact that you have to use this tactic or that tactic then it is no longer a sandbox game.

CM/FM has always been a sandbox game and I could if I wish play a 3-5-2 formation and work on that to make it a winning formation,If now I have to be told time and time again it is my tactics and "this" is how I should play,well then it is not a sandbox anymore,it is just a game that I have to play a certain way,basically a corridor shooter were you go through the motions,in an fps I can select the weapon and move down the corridor,in FM I can select the team but move down the corridor.

Not what I want from FM.

[treble_yell_:-)]

I will say this,

If FM has come down to the fact that you have to use this tactic or that tactic then it is no longer a sandbox game.

CM/FM has always been a sandbox game and I could if I wish play a 3-5-2 formation and work on that to make it a winning formation,If now I have to be told time and time again it is my tactics and "this" is how I should play,well then it is not a sandbox anymore,it is just a game that I have to play a certain way,basically a corridor shooter were you go through the motions,in an fps I can select the weapon and move down the corridor,in FM I can select the team but move down the corridor.

Not what I want from FM.

Football isn't a sandbox, there is a reason that you rarely see 442 or liberos or sweepers or even any formation with 2 up top any more.

if the ME is exposing these tactics as not workable then it's working. And no one is saying a 3-5-2 or whatever cannot work "it's your tactics is (mostly) used to troll or get a reaction. I think what wwfan is saying is that IF the tactic is illogical , and would be seen/work in real life then it wont work in the current ME.

Half the rage is previous ME's have had tactics developed for them that games the system , and people get angry when they can't find 1 catch all tactic that is all destroying, this will no doubt come in time when the ME's flaws are exposed and are arguably being seen now in the amount of 35xx tactics being developed in the tactics forum.

[daylight]

It's obviously a total waste of my time trying to help. Enjoy your game.

Help is one thing,everyone likes that.

Basically insulted other players is another,I am also sure people don't enjoy having you repeating that "This guy said I know my **** so you better listen" does not help.

I have no doubt you know how to play the game but that does not help when the people want to play a sandbox game their own way,also the know all attitude does not help,you could have put across your thoughts a lot better without having an attitude about it.

[themadsheep2001]

Football isn't a sandbox, there is a reason that you rarely see 442 or liberos or sweepers or even any formation with 2 up top any more.

if the ME is exposing these tactics as not workable then it's working. And no one is saying a 3-5-2 or whatever cannot work "it's your tactics is (mostly) used to troll or get a reaction. I think what wwfan is saying is that IF the tactic is illogical , and would be seen/work in real life then it wont work in the current ME.

I was just replying but you summed it up better than I was going to.

[Sarin1]

It's obviously a total waste of my time trying to help. Enjoy your game.

No offense but that is how the people who play the game feel when playing it.

Thats its obviously a waste of time trying to get any sort of tactic that isnt just exploiting a bad Match Engine.

They arnt going to be happy when you reply "the ME isnt perfect fix your tactics" and the problem is that the Match Engine allows only exploiting tactics that look anything like football.

Most of them arnt losing, hell ive won 90% of the competitions, its the football from the match engine thats BAD.

[daylight]

Football isn't a sandbox, there is a reason that you rarely see 442 or liberos or sweepers or even any formation with 2 up top any more.

if the ME is exposing these tactics as not workable then it's working. And no one is saying a 3-5-2 or whatever cannot work "it's your tactics is (mostly) used to troll or get a reaction. I think what wwfan is saying is that IF the tactic is illogical , and would be seen/work in real life then it wont work in the current ME.

This game has always been a sandbox,of course it has,you can do as you please and make it work,a 3-5-2 can work in the real footballing world and has been proven,the same as a 4-2-2-2 can work.

The point is with so many problems in the ME every single day we have to hear "it is your tactics",really?

I posted earlier about my 5-0 down after only 23 minutes,1 of those goals I had to watch my goalkeeper and defender look at each other as the ball lay on the 6 yard line,both were about 2 yards away,a striker that was on the edge of the box came running in and put it into the net,my players just stood and watched...I am sure it was my tactics that neither player decided to actually kick the ball...yes it was my tactics.

[dave7867]

I'll try to be as polite as possible.

I designed the TC, which feeds directly into the logic the AI accesses for its tactics. I know the exact logic informing the TC, AI and ME. I expect to see certain playing styles fail. Even PaulC defers to me in terms of the theoretical logic of the TC. When I talk about how tactics should work in FM, it is from the horse's mouth.

From everything I've seen in this feedback thread and over the years since the TC started informing the AI and ME, I've not seen one example of a coherent, move between the lines tactic fail. I have, however, seen countless examples of incoherent, static or one dimensional tactics fail. Everything I've read here and the tactics I've seen posted all support my argument that many users are:

1. Randomly picking settings
   
2. Relying on one dimensional tactics that should be easy for the AI to defend
   

Historically, users have been able to do well with both types of tactic by "beating" the ME. The structural changes in the FM13 ME are stopping this from happening. This informs my argument that the FM13 ME is a huge improvement from the FM12 ME, despite its obvious flaws. Hence, users are having to change their approach to succeed. Part of this mindset change is accepting that what you were doing before might not be football logical, but ME busting. A large number of people who have accepted this are doing extremely well, even posting that they are enjoying FM more than ever since doing so.

I can't help if my advice offends you. That is your perogative. However, it doesn't stop it from being good or the right advice.

you are delusional about the difference between the fm12 me and the fm 13 one BIG TIME

listen in my 6th season i've played 20 matches WON 19 DREW 1 LOST 0(FM13) but its getting to be a chore not FUN its a GAME after all aint it.

Sure make game a bit harder WE all adjust in some way.

and of course i could list HUNDREDS of examples past and present about it.

Oh and if you and your Colleagues of having the game ,what minimum 6 weeks haven't seen the same issue then the game is in a serious problem.

Beta release 19th Oct and Full release 2nd Nov but how long were the testers and yourselves playing it?

[themadsheep2001]

This game has always been a sandbox,of course it has,you can do as you please and make it work,a 3-5-2 can work in the real footballing world and has been proven,the same as a 4-2-2-2 can work.

The point is with so many problems in the ME every single day we have to hear "it is your tactics",really?

I posted earlier about my 5-0 down after only 23 minutes,1 of those goals I had to watch my goalkeeper and defender look at each other as the ball lay on the 6 yard line,both were about 2 yards away,a striker that was on the edge of the box came running in and put it into the net,my players just stood and watched...I am sure it was my tactics that neither player decided to actually kick the ball...yes it was my tactics.

Yes, as an example, providing the logic of the 3-5-2 is sound. and even then 3-5-2 has strengths and weaknesses against various formations (putting other variables aside such as player ability etc). Being sandbox does not mean an unworkable approach should work...

[WizbaII]

This game has always been a sandbox,of course it has,you can do as you please and make it work,a 3-5-2 can work in the real footballing world and has been proven,the same as a 4-2-2-2 can work.

The point is with so many problems in the ME every single day we have to hear "it is your tactics",really?

I posted earlier about my 5-0 down after only 23 minutes,1 of those goals I had to watch my goalkeeper and defender look at each other as the ball lay on the 6 yard line,both were about 2 yards away,a striker that was on the edge of the box came running in and put it into the net,my players just stood and watched...I am sure it was my tactics that neither player decided to actually kick the ball...yes it was my tactics.

I don't understand the point of these arguments. When you have something that is obviously an ME flaw, post it in the bugs forum. I don't think anyone would argue that players standing there to watch the ball is a tactics issue.

[Butters76]

I don't understand the point of these arguments. When you have something that is obviously an ME flaw, post it in the bugs forum. I don't think anyone would argue that players standing there to watch the ball is a tactics issue.

Accually WWfan (i believe) argued in one example that the tactical setup made the player not know what to do. When I use an example of a defender 5 yards from the ball walked slowly towards the ball while the striker 15 yards away ran over and snatched it before the defender standing by the ball.

I argued that it was a miss between the ME and graphics engine, where in the math behind it the striker was actually closer to th ball to begin with and the display engine made the defender walk slowly to compensate.

WWfan argued the tactical instructions must have made the player not know what to do. I know footballers arn't the brightest guys on the planet, but c'mon. No instructions should make the players do something that stupid.

Biggest problem I see is it seems the players often can't see the ball, don't know where it is. But I'm sure it will get fixed with updates.

[daylight]

Yes, as an example, providing the logic of the 3-5-2 is sound. and even then 3-5-2 has strengths and weaknesses against various formations (putting other variables aside such as player ability etc). Being sandbox does not mean an unworkable approach should work...

I am not talking about a 1-1-8 formation here.

I am talking about the fact that some mods are telling you how the game should be played,this game should not be and never has had a "you should play it this way",not sure what you don't understand about that.

I am sick of hearing that I have to have my players do this or they should do that,why even bother playing the game if I have to follow someone else's advice?

It is almost like in real life the board saying "Okay Sir Alex plays like this so that is how you should play,If you don't you wont win and get sacked".

I have always been successful in this game and tbh I still am but this ME and the attitude of some of the mods regarding the new ME is really frustrating.

[BiggusD]

It's obviously a total waste of my time trying to help. Enjoy your game.

I have a question for you which isn't a total waste of your time. Here's my ultradefensive tactic:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

My direct and very clear question to you is that when I use this tactic in matches where it makes sense to do so, like for instance against a club from a league or two above me away in the cup, how is it that the main way (the only way, even) that I concede is through 70-yard through balls given after some lure-out passing deep into the superior team's defense? I mean, I have instructed my players to abandon all attempts at being anywhere near constructive in any possible way, I have told them to remain in their defensive shape no matter what as long as the opposition has the ball. I have told them to NOT close down beyond the line in the middle of the pitch. Yet, the way they score is through creating a 40-meter space behind my defensive line and booting the ball into it. What am I doing wrong? How can I make my players adhere to the obvious tactical plan to destroy any attempt at good football, frustrate the opponent and score on the counter when they are vulnerable to one? The tactic is defensively sound as hell, and actually does what it is designed to do... except in that one instance where I immediately understand what is going to happen; they pass aimlessly beween each other on the edge of their own 16-yard box so that my entire team comes into their half, and then score an easy goal.

I really need your help, because I don't understand how that could possibly happen with this tactic.

Thanks in advance.

[daylight]

I don't understand the point of these arguments. When you have something that is obviously an ME flaw, post it in the bugs forum. I don't think anyone would argue that players standing there to watch the ball is a tactics issue.

Because what is the point when a mod of this forum keeps blindly saying it is the player tactic?

And on top of this SI are backing the mod saying he knows his ****?

Everytime someone posts something in this thread that is downgrading the game it is quickly pointed out that the ME is fine and the player should look at their tactics.

That is why I suggested that maybe the mods defending the game maybe take a back seat and let players vent their frustration.

[Guest]

I designed the TC, which feeds directly into the logic the AI accesses for its tactics. I know the exact logic informing the TC, AI and ME. I expect to see certain playing styles fail. Even PaulC defers to me in terms of the theoretical logic of the TC. When I talk about how tactics should work in FM, it is from the horse's mouth.

I think this paragraph explains your responses for me. I'll stay out of this thread from now on.

[Caketiger]

I'm playing as Wellington Phoenix in the A-League. It's impossible to arrange friendlies, even with the other NZ teams. The board won't sanction away matches and the opposition won't travel to Wellington as it is "too far to travel". Not true in real life obviously.