My growing disapointment with every new version of FM

[Frazzle07]

Hi,

I understand that there are many kinds of threads like these that have already been posted but this is quite a lengthy post and I wanted to get peoples reaction, whether it was for and against. I would first like to point out that I have bought every Football Manager game there has been and many of the Championship Manager games, going back to 01/02, and have loved them all. I know the people at SI do a great job and work extremely hard and Sports Interactive are on of the few genuine companies out there who I have great respect for and one of the few where I actually pre-order the games. I would also like to add that this is not a rant or anything like that, just an analysis of my thoughts and feelings of a game I love and if anyone wants to add something please keep it respectful without arguing . However it must be said that I feel a growing disappointment with each new game that comes out.

First of all I would like to discuss the most recent edition of Football Manager, FM12 as an example of my points. I believe that FM12 is the best version of Football Manager ever released. It was a great game which I have played a lot (too much) and have rarely had problems. However I was recently looked at the announcement for FM12 and realised how little had changed and how small the improvement of these features had added to the game. When you first see the announcement everybody is excited for the new version at the prospect of the features, however once you've played the game for a while you realise how much smaller the features are in reality.

The main improvements with FM12 were transfer and contracts, scouting, 3D match engine, tone, add/remove leagues, tone and the tutorial according to the announcement. I personally look at these improvements and after many hours of FM12 realise how little they impacted the game.

The transfer and contract improvements resulted the user being able to "lock in" certain conditions to get a better deal or because of financial constraints. I will admit this feature was handy but to be called a main feature on the official announcement is a bit of a stretch in my opinion. I'm sure that there was work behind the scenes to create a more realistic result for the user but with continuing problems such as the 48 month transfer method (although now sorter in FM13 I believe) and poor AI squad building with regards to transfers, this hardly scratches the surface with improving the transfers and contracts

The 3D match improvements are a yearly upgrade of a very important part of FM. However me, along with many other users, are always disappointed with the end result. Whilst the improvements are always handy and noticing a new animation is quite nice, it never seems enough. I understand that FM will never look like FIFA but I don't want that and realise it will never happen. The 3D match engine was introduced in FM 2008, around four years ago and I don't feel that the presentation has changed that much. Although hard to find a good quality video, have a look at FM2008's match engine compared to the new FM13 videos. The level of improvement disappoints me a little as I feel that for such a core part of the game no big enhancements are present, just little tweaks. I do recognise that the number of people working at SI is very small compared to other big AA companies but there just isn't enough to justify four years of work. We haven't had proper blogs on the new match engine so my comments are a little premature but I am working off of what I have seen so far, although the same tweaks seem to be apparent. The new engine is a result of two years of work but focusses on ball physics. I can't say that this was on my first list of priorities with regards to the match engine but I am being a little harsh here as no blogs have been released yet with information about this so I hope I am pleasantly surprised.

Some other "main features" were the tone system and scouting improvements. For a start I'm not even sure where the improvements are to the scouting. Sure the report screen is more detailed but apart from looking at the stars and personality I don't use any more of that screen. The tone system was nice but it falls into another trap of repetition (same with press conferences). I find myself only using a couple of options that I know will work and will use the same ones forever as there is no need to do anything else. Just to add, adding the tone system to press conferences in FM13 is not a new feature SI, it's doing something you should have done in the last game and will probably be the least used new "feature" due to the fact that press conferences are boring and repetitive and are very easy to leave to my assistant.

Now the big feature that I and a lot of people were excited about last year was the ability to add and remove leagues after we had created a new game. I was very excited about this, even though I am lucky and have a very nice computer that is more than capable of running many leagues. However what we got was less than satisfactory. For a start the feature was buggy. I have seen many people complain about large amounts of players being added after adding leagues leaving the game very slow to run, corrupted saves after adding certain leagues (see my history as I had this problem) which left me scared to use this feature as I didn't want my save to end. Now I am sure that other people have used this with success but the fact that these problems left me unsure to use this feature is unacceptable. Also, it's hard to know which nation to add when you don't get job offers from countries that were not loaded. Why should I load up Spain if I don't know that I will get a job over there.

After dissecting the main features for FM12 I fail to see where the main improvement with the game is. The UI? The community creates much better versions than SI ever had. Better player search? This was made even worse by the fact that if I wanted to search for a player that was English, under 18 with a value over £1m, I had to wait for the search to load all the players one filter at a time leaving me waiting from the list to load before I could select another filter. Team meetings? Top of the league with a good run and you want to congratulate your players with a team meeting feels like a spin of a roulette wheel, never knowing if you're going to get a positive reaction. Looking over the features of FM11, 10, 09 ,08 and so on, the same thing is apparent. For such a long time the game has coasted along without huge improvements since the 3D match engine was introduced and I think it's about time Football Manager got a good shake up. However I don't see this happening in the near future. And why would SI want to do this. The game is always selling very, very well and a shake up could spoil this.

I've always though of Football Manager as a small game. I think this is down to the fact that it receives very little media attention and has quite a tight knit community on these forums and various other fan-sites. It's also not a very "cool" game and is often associated with sitting in your room for hours without social interaction (and in my case true), but it is far from small. SEGA don't post the sales figures so I could never put a number on it but the steam stats for today have put FM12 around fifth with the most peak players. It had around more than double the amount of peak players than The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim. With such a fan base I would have hoped that the game would have advanced more over the years. However I can hardly single out SI. I do understand that they are churning out games every year and even FIFA and all the people working on that hardly makes much improvement each year. I think that it is more of a genre thing, sports games have a habit of tweaking rather than evolving which is understandable, although it is apparent in other genres such as the FPS genre (Call of Duty). A lot of people suggest taking a year out and I do agree this would a good idea. But for SI and SEGA this would not make financial sense as they keep selling the games every year.

Looking at the forums, people always wait until the January transfer window to buy the game so that the bugs are sorted and this should not be the case. All customers should want to buy the game straight away knowing that they will be getting a great game rather than waiting for that inevitable patch and getting the game for a much cheaper price, hurting the developer in the first place. Bugs have had a long history with Football Manager however FM12 was a great improvement in that regards, however with the lack of huge changes in the game should we be surprised? Might be being a little cynical now.

I love SI and the work they do but I can't help but feel that without a proper competitor the game will continue to coast along. PES is very important for FIFA as at any moment PES could become much better (which is what it is trending to at the moment) and FIFA would have to step up their game. Now that Champ Man has gone who else is there? Fifa Manager? .

I would like to apologise for the great wall of text and if you are reading this thanks for taking the time to read it! I do hope that FM13 is going to really stand out but I feel that it won't. I know that I would struggle to tell anyone many features of FM10 or FM11 even though I played them both religiously. Looking at the features of 13 I get the same feeling. The classic mode, while is a very handy feature for a lot of people out there, doesn't appeal to me as I like the deepness and immersion of the full game. Not sure what to make of the training as no video has been released but I quite liked the old sliders, not sure what to make of it just yet but wasn't sure if it needed tweaking. However the network side of improvements does look awesome and I hope the match engine surprises me!

But because of the fact that the game could never possibly get worse because SI never take things out or make drastic changes, the game always gets better, if only gradually. Therefore I always buy the game because even though the improvements are small, I could never go back to an old game as I know I could be playing something newer. It has one of the best money to game play ratios in the business and I can hardly complain with what I get for £19.95. Have I pre-ordered FM13? Yep. Will I at some point stop typing? Yep ! Will I enjoy and play FM13? Yes because it is still the same game I know and love, but I can't help but feel that I'm playing the same game I was playing five years ago.

Am I being harsh/fair/crazy!?

Jake

[Pob]

Fair, and I broadly agree.

I've just got one comment on:

It's also not a very "cool" game and is often associated with sitting in your room for hours without social interaction (and in my case true), but it is far from small.

This didn't always used to be the case. Im sure many of us on here were brought to the CM/FM series by friends playing the game; word of mouth was key to the success of the game; a few versions ago, students at every university would play huge network games and I don't think this happens as much anymore.

[Candre168]

I've been a long time player too, and FM13 is the first time I'm considering giving the game a miss. I think the difference between FM11 and FM12 was worth be buying FM12, but in general I've noticed there's not much difference between the games and you always end up having to deal with bugs until the game gets patched properly. So yeah, I kinda' agree.

I'd actually rather they released FM every two years and just worked on loads of improvements. That being said, won't happen because selling a new game obviously makes more money .

[Lawlore]

I'm with you on the wall of text- it's a good read, and reflects a lot of my own thoughts. Kudos.

I'd considered posting something along similar lines myself, albeit from the perspective of the FM series development beginning to resemble that of FML, but I think you've put the same kind of points across considerably less ranty and far more eloquently.

[haunted1234]

i was playing fifa manager for like 5-6 years till my cousin convinced me of football manager (the lack of displayed player strengh was a huge turn off for me at first thats why i was starting so late)

so i decided to get fm11 played alot, shortly after 12 came and i played 600 hours on steam respectivly, my cousin has not much free time he didnt get the 12 version hes still playing 11 and we were talking about "what changed" from 11 to 12, namely i just listed "you can lock number in contract negotiations", because honestly, from what i felt or recognize nothing else changed. yes you could add and remove leagues but i never bothered.

then he asked me, are all youth players still sucky? ehm yes, unless you have the biggest and best all in build out youth acadamy there can be you dont even need to bother lookin at your youth intakes.

i hope they improved the youth development with the new coaches as such that you can at least get 1 or 2 usefull players out of it if your buildings are not top notch.

sometimes i wish the game had some more options to mod, because iam sure there are some modding brains out there who could tweak the transfer AI to a point where its not absolutly ridicoulus

[Columnarius]

This is a classic issue associated with software products' lifecycle.

A typical product starts out with the minimum viable feature set that would cause someone to buy it. The product is then augmented over time. Typically a company looks to recoup their costs and make a profit by selling each iteration at a price. For many types of software, this is done through a yearly "version" release.

Early on, the product has lots of things it could improve, which would cause more people to buy it again but also more new people to buy it for the first time. There are a lot of juicy features on the table, and tackling those tend to net big gains in sales.

But as the product matures, two things happen.

1. There are less potential new customers for your product who are not currently using it.

2. There are less juicy features that will win you more share of the market.

Once a product reaches that level of maturity, you typically see companies adding features with less and less meaningful differentiation on the previous version. With a certain set of resources and with certain assumptions about how many of the people who bought before will buy again, you do your best to put in enough new things to entice your customers to buy again.

That's where we find Football Manager at this point. The game has tackled most of the major features associated with delivering a realistic and rewarding simulation of football to a high percentage of what they could be. Since they've done that, they are now left to identify and implement incremental improvements because there really are no major areas left to improve. One could argue that there are still some big areas left to tackle. I personally think just about anything would go into the "incremental improvement" bucket at this stage.

And so each of us as potential customers is left to determine whether the small improvements are worth enough to pay for the new version. Until many of us do not do that, SI will continue to invest and produce an incrementally improvement product.

Once many of us don't, then SI can ask itself whether selling the same product over a few years (perhaps while releasing minor patches including things like updated player databases) while they work on even larger and more fundamental changes (similar to a Microsoft Office model) is the way to go.

The alternative that some software companies reach (less so sports oriented software games) is to decide they've reached the end of meaningful incremental value they can deliver, at which point its time to invest all those resources in creating a brand new game.

Bust most likely, the success that comes from selling around a cyclical activity such as professional sports, and the ability to continue to attract a customer base to re-buy the same product with many (each one relatively incremental) changes will continue to push SI to continue this model.

[laBOMBA]

I somewhat agree with what has being said. For me, FM13 doesn't seem to have a BIG improvement. Nothing of the impact that previous improvements had such as the 3d engine, dynamic league reputation, add/remove leagues.

I'm not a fan of all the team/press/player talks as they take up so much time and get repetitive very quick so the FM Classic seems like a good alternative, but I don't like you can't load more than 3 nations.

Maybe the ball dynamic is a great improvement but I'll refrain from commenting once I had a crack at it.

So far, I haven't pre-ordered and I'm not sure if I'll do. Might skip this year.

[asdpoo]

Exactly my thoughts and since you are a native speaker and put it so nicely I hope people listen instead of telling you to take your moaning elsewhere!

The changes year-to-year are so small that I'd never buy it at the full retail price. Going from FM11 to FM12 at the price of GTA4/Skyrim seems ridiculous. I'd rather see the game make vast improvements than be content with buying it at 40-50% deals.

Columnarius, there are still bigger things to do than tone and camera angles. To name a few:

1. The game can be times faster if it used multiprocessing right. You'll be able to load much more leagues and players, leading to much better experience.

2. The UI can be a lot better, especially at 1080p. It needs to lower the number of clicks to do stuff and lower the waste of space with big empty boxes.

3. Some things are outright wrong. Like players asking for improved contract 2 months after signing one or asking for a huge wage increase, then signing for worse club with lower wage.

4. Mandatory mention of the AI. After a few years, when you make a good squad, the game becomes very easy due to poor AI squad building. For me this takes away the joy in playing a long save with one club.

[MSCCG]

I feel like this is always a complaint that comes up when any long term product has had many iterations. Fact is, when some kind of vision has been reached, it is difficult and in many cases even undesirable to make drastic changes that mess with the way people has used it before. At this point, the product is about polish and incorporating new technology rather than continuously re-inventing the wheel.

For me, FM is worth the £20 even if you see it only as a database update. However, I believe that if you look at the past titles, you will see many changes that have gradually led to the product we see today. Maybe only small differences in 2011, but when you get back to 2010, 2009, 2008 the game is vastly more playable now and beyond that it is barely recognisable.

[davidbowie]

The 3D engine is a complete waste of time. Should never have been introduced.

They should be spending time fixing the actual match engine, not wasting time making the already crap animations slightly better. If they were owned by EA sports they'd have a full mo-cap group they could use (like DICE in Battlefield Three), but they aren't.

[randomale]

Most of the valid points have already been made, the series is in a dilemma, it has to have 'hundreds of new features' (which are not exactly new features) to try to attract new players to the game but at the same time it has to keep the formula for the game very similar.

There are arguments that these 'hundreds of new features' are actually drowning the game and maybe that's why the new 'modes' are being introduced (these 'modes' have been talked about for years but were always rejected by SI previously).

I think you can see the trend for Si (and particualry Sega) now, 'some' modes free and others to be paid for, pushing the game via Steam, constant yearly updates of the game that are at times nothing more really than a 'patch' and not worth a 'new game price'.

I've brought the game for over 10 years and I have now got into a new cycle, buy the new version in Aug/Sept (just before the newqest version is soon to be released), get the game for under £10, patch the game up and get a new database loaded in, play the game for a year and then begin again.

For me it gives me the game that i want and at a price that I think is acceptable for what they produce, I would only ever pay full price on release date if they actually launched a 'new version' proper.

[milnerpoint]

Its amazing, FM13 has been written off before any of you have even seen the box.

[michaelthestrange]

A lot of people suggest taking a year out and I do agree this would a good idea. But for SI and SEGA this would not make financial sense as they keep selling the games every year.

I'd love to see SI releasing an "Add-On" (or whatever you want to call it) for FM12 simultaneously with FM13, that makes you start the game in FM12 a season later (the current season) and with the same database as in FM13 (i.e. players at their current clubs, new sets of attributes etc.) They could be selling it for probably half the price of the new game and I'd surely buy it, because a database update is the most important part of a new game version for me (I now about user-made updates but that is not the same thing).

Your post was an excellent read and I broadly agree. And I'll still end up buying FM13 as well

[spankie]

The problem is that there are precious few new ground breaking things that SI can add to the game, so what they can do is improve and polish what is already in the game and add new small features to make the game more realistic.

If you can think of any that would actualy be possible then please post them in the wishlist.

They can't do a match engine that looks like FIFA for a few good reasons:

1 - EA have a huge team making their games, much bigger then SI with more money to back them up the SI and Sega can.

2 - SI has little chance of getting the image rights for the real players, so none of the players will look like they do IRL. Can you imagine the number of complaints SI would get if Puyol doesn't look like a hippy of Rooney like Shrek?

3 - Faces of regens would be an issue. SI would have to create a brand new way of generating regen faces that can be incorporated in the profiles and match engine. If that was possible it would take years before it would be ready.

An add on for FM12 might not be possible. There probably will be changes in the database that would make the FM13 database incompatible with FM12, previously there would be options added in the new database that the older games would not recognise for example new PPMs, new types of contracts and so on. That would mean that SI would have to have 2 teams on database duty to compile and test databases for their older games as well as the new game.

People wouldn't be happy paying money for a databse update as there would not be any new features or bug fixes in the update.

[myfmdaily]

The 3D engine is a complete waste of time. Should never have been introduced.

They should be spending time fixing the actual match engine, not wasting time making the already crap animations slightly better. If they were owned by EA sports they'd have a full mo-cap group they could use (like DICE in Battlefield Three), but they aren't.

A 3d engine like Fifa Manager will increase the requirement, especially on graphic cards. I think FM 3d engine is good enough, allowing older computers to play the game and more people will buy the game.

Probably that's why Fifa Manager sell less than FM, because computer requirements are higher.

[Govnar1]

2. The UI can be a lot better, especially at 1080p. It needs to lower the number of clicks to do stuff and lower the waste of space with big empty boxes.

SI's UI team:

[Goose54]

I totally agree with the first post!

I love fm 13 and i preordered, but the last versions seems like a DLC, minor features and updated database, more like a DLC add-on.

Fmclassic/FMlight, i hate it, but i understand that it might suit some - but come on with the real improvements, how many years are we running on the same ****** match engine?

[Wiitastic]

TBH, I gave up reading this non-fiction story book after the 1st 1/2 line ...

[milnerpoint]

Do any of you watch or read anything they have given us about this game? The match engine has been re-worked!! 2 years worth of re-working!!

Honestly.

[RBKalle]

Its amazing, FM13 has been written off before any of you have even seen the box.

We've watched the videos...

Maybe it's just me, but if there were significant changes in the KEY AREAS of FM, those who have been dodgy/flawed/broken for the last N iterations of the game (and swinging from "too much" to "too little" like transfers, loans, morale), I would have at least mentioned them in a video, giving them visibility.

Sure, for all we know SI may or may have not drastically improved AI squad building and development skills... too bad we won't know til we're in our 5th season of career, as all the promotional stuff is about FMC and vital stuff like tones in press conferences...

Even giving the game the benefit of the doubt, it's another case of less than stellar PR, just like it happened last year for the Steam-or-die policy.

As said in countles threads, I've nothing against FMC or new features... I just wish the chronic issues were fixed before "wasting" resources on new things...

[milnerpoint]

We've watched the videos...

Maybe it's just me, but if there were significant changes in the KEY AREAS of FM, those who have been dodgy/flawed/broken for the last N iterations of the game (and swinging from "too much" to "too little" like transfers, loans, morale), I would have at least mentioned them in a video, giving them visibility.

Sure, for all we know SI may or may have not drastically improved AI squad building and development skills... too bad we won't know til we're in our 5th season of career, as all the promotional stuff is about FMC and vital stuff like tones in press conferences...

Even giving the game the benefit of the doubt, it's another case of less than stellar PR, just like it happened last year for the Steam-or-die policy.

As said in countles threads, I've nothing against FMC or new features... I just wish the chronic issues were fixed before "wasting" resources on new things...

If you had watched the vids, you would have heard Miles talk about how they have improved the AI when it comes to buying players, improved the match engine, massively improved the loan system, to name just 3 things, but of course its easy to miss when all your looking for is another reason to post complaints.

Tell me, what have they "wasted" resources on?

[myfmdaily]

We've watched the videos...

Maybe it's just me, but if there were significant changes in the KEY AREAS of FM, those who have been dodgy/flawed/broken for the last N iterations of the game (and swinging from "too much" to "too little" like transfers, loans, morale), I would have at least mentioned them in a video, giving them visibility.

Sure, for all we know SI may or may have not drastically improved AI squad building and development skills... too bad we won't know til we're in our 5th season of career, as all the promotional stuff is about FMC and vital stuff like tones in press conferences...

Even giving the game the benefit of the doubt, it's another case of less than stellar PR, just like it happened last year for the Steam-or-die policy.

As said in countles threads, I've nothing against FMC or new features... I just wish the chronic issues were fixed before "wasting" resources on new things...

Every version of FM, SI have introduced several improvements like player roles, backroom advice, team report was also improved, etc. There are some things that can be improved and step by step on each version SI will improve the game. Some things that aren't on FM 2013, probably will be on FM 2014.

I have watched all the videos and once again SI introduce huge improvements, the FMC, Sports Director, some specific rules were implemented on Leagues.

[RBKalle]

Every version of FM, SI have introduced several improvements like player roles, backroom advice, team report was also improved, etc. There are some things that can be improved and step by step on each version SI will improve the game. Some things that aren't on FM 2013, probably will be on FM 2014.

I have watched all the videos and once again SI introduce huge improvements, the FMC, Sports Director, some specific rules were implemented on Leagues.

Yeah and we still have, among other issues, a moronic reputation-based transfer system and a manager turnover which is, at its core, the same of CM2.

I would gladly give FMC, DoF and the whole media interaction (a shambles in itself) to have a sensible AI when it comes to signings, loans, formations and scouting.

But sure, let's all rejoice we can now use tones in press conferences

[milnerpoint]

I would gladly give FMC, DoF and the whole media interaction (a shambles in itself) to have a sensible AI when it comes to signings, loans, formations and scouting.

Again, watch the videos, most off those issues have been discussed.

[SpinchterPleasure]

Most gamers here are aiming for some minimalistic goal, such as taking 4th division club to the Premiere League (Premiere League is garbage to begin with, the players have no skill, no technique, no footballing-IQ and understanding whatsoever, if you are paid huge amount of money to put a ball inside the net, you might as well have to do it CORRECTLY, like Spain did against Italy 3 months ago) .

A person actually built a perfect city with Sim City 3000.

[video=youtube;JtB2ZfVuLhY]

I've set my goal in finding the perfect formation and its corresponding strategy, the perfect balance between defense and attack, ball retention, fluid attack-defense transition. So far, it hasn't been disappointing. I play with Real.

I'll probably patent this formation and strategy, and sell to Barcelona , because they know nothing about defensive work.

OK, i'm probably exaggerating a little bit, you won't attend West Point and apply for military tactician major, after winning in StarCraft II against a South Korean, you probably won't start your own coaching career after taking your team to the very top in this game, but it boosts your self-esteem , knowing deep down inside that you have the potential to be a world class manager.

[Frazzle07]

Its amazing, FM13 has been written off before any of you have even seen the box.

I understand that and when I have commented on things that haven't properly been introduced yet (such as the 3D match engine) I have said so in my post. I'm just going on what I have seen so far and what I think i'll see in the future.

[milnerpoint]

Im sorry but none of that has anything to do with this thread.....

[Frazzle07]

Do any of you watch or read anything they have given us about this game? The match engine has been re-worked!! 2 years worth of re-working!!

Honestly.

Yep and I'm looking forward to seeing what the improvements are in this area. Like I said before, I'm jumping the gun a little with regards to the match engine but I was just voicing my own views about what I have seen over the past four years and where I think it will go in the future .

[TacticalGenius]

@SpinchterPleasure

Obvious troll is obvious.

Do me a favour and stop posting such drivel. You brag about your Real Madrid save yet you admit cheating. You're an idiot. Go away.

[Crispypaul]

The 3D engine is a complete waste of time. Should never have been introduced.

But it's optional, so you don't need to worry about it.

[RBKalle]

Again, watch the videos, most off those issues have been discussed.

Which one exactly discussed improved AI, and I mean discussed it properly?

All I've seen is some vague stuff about scouting [which AFAICT is merely a better GUI presentation of the report, but if the report is still about a useless 20yo "prospect", all the progress is pontless] and the bit about tactical preferences in contract negotiation.

[dazbowski]

So I imagined the way AI clubs buy players and squad build has been discussed?

[Frazzle07]

Just want to address a couple of things here.

Firstly, FM is hardly unique in that each year it just evolves a bit from the last release, rather than introducing any major new changes. Look at any game that is released annually and you'll see the same pattern, minor improvements every year that don't make the game feel much different but overall improve the experience.

Secondly, the vast, vast majority of users buy the game either on release or shortly after, only a tiny minority wait for the patches to all be released, it just seems like a lot do because you quite often see people start a thread on here to announce that they are waiting till january, while those that buy it early don't feel the need to try and make a big deal of that!

Thirdly, every single game has bugs when it is released, many have gamebreaking bugs, even major releases like FIFA13 on PC, just released and for the majority of users it is crashing before even loading the start screen. It's just that with FM, because the nature of the game is that people invest a lot of hours on it the bugs are all found pretty quickly, and so it feels like there are a huge number of bugs because most of them are discovered very shortly after release and then posted up here, in reality when you consider the scale of the game the number of bugs is actually fairly low.

Anyway, I'm sure that this post won't make much sense but I am currently pretty sleep deprived and so can't really think straight right now!

You make some great points here man and it did make sense . Gaming in general is suffering from a lack of risk due to the fact that it so easy to churn out a sequel with little and improvements and still sell as well or even better than the prequel. Recently Borderlands, a game I love, has changed very little in the sequel and I was disappointed in this. Your point about the bugs is also completely true and I think SI have been really clever with the beta. People will be more likely to pre-order the game because they want to get it two weeks earlier, people will find early bugs quickly and that fact that the game is in beta means that they are protected from complaints that would have happened if it wasn't in beta and we all get a better polished game on release.

[steve_r]

Go back to FM 2005 if you dont think there has been many significant changes. It won't take long to realise that all the minor changes over the years add up to a very big difference. Yes, changes between each years versions are not earth shattering, but the cumulative effect is very significant.

One game takes me longer than 1 year, so I tend to miss out every other game anyway.

[tomtuck01]

I stopped reading the OP after I read this;

The 3D match improvements are a yearly upgrade of a very important part of FM. However me, along with many other users, are always disappointed with the end result. Whilst the improvements are always handy and noticing a new animation is quite nice, it never seems enough. I understand that FM will never look like FIFA but I don't want that and realise it will never happen. The 3D match engine was introduced in FM 2008, around four years ago and I don't feel that the presentation has changed that much. Although hard to find a good quality video, have a look at FM2008's match engine compared to the new FM13 videos. The level of improvement disappoints me a little as I feel that for such a core part of the game no big enhancements are present, just little tweaks. I do recognise that the number of people working at SI is very small compared to other big AA companies but there just isn't enough to justify four years of work. We haven't had proper blogs on the new match engine so my comments are a little premature but I am working off of what I have seen so far, although the same tweaks seem to be apparent. The new engine is a result of two years of work but focusses on ball physics.

First, I'll explain that I stopped reading because, like so many others, the OP can't seem to grasp that there is no mythical "3D Match Engine". There is however a 3D representation of the Match Engine, just like 2D is. I don't see how watching the game unfold in 3D is a core feature of the game in the slightest. Why do you think it is "a core feature" and a "very important part of FM"?

My biggest grievance over past few years is that SI devoted such great resources to developing the 3D stuff in the first place. Those resources could have been used in much better ways, like improving the match engine, which has needed a bit of a revamp for some time.

[spankie]

My biggest grievance over past few years is that SI devoted such great resources to developing the 3D stuff in the first place. Those resources could have been used in much better ways, like improving the match engine, which has needed a bit of a revamp for some time.

PaulC, who leads the ME team, has said lots of times that he is not interested in getting more staff to help him out as his team work exactly as he wants and previous experience has shown him that throwing more bodies at it is a hinderance.

Anyyway, I'm pretty sure that SI have hired different people to do the 3D view and animations. It could be argued that those extra staff could be used for something else, but not on the ME.

[daylight]

The 3D match engine is a core feature and a lot of players see it as being very important part of FM.

I played this game when the only option was to view the text,then later the 2D engine and now I use the 3D engine.

I could never go back to just reading the text now,times have moved on and SI understand that the 3D engine is important these days to a lot of players so they keep working on it and improving it and so they should.

You may not see it as very important just like I can't stand the press conference's,team talks and the pretty poor talking to a player without upsetting him so much he can not play for **** after the chat!

I think the 3D match engine is much more important to the game than the 3 things I listed.

[tomtuck01]

PaulC, who leads the ME team, has said lots of times that he is not interested in getting more staff to help him out as his team work exactly as he wants and previous experience has shown him that throwing more bodies at it is a hinderance.

Anyyway, I'm pretty sure that SI have hired different people to do the 3D view and animations. It could be argued that those extra staff could be used for something else, but not on the ME.

Well yes I didn't exclusively mean that reources should be used on developing the ME, that was just an example.

I think the 3D match engine is much more important to the game than the 3 things I listed.

Then FIFA is your friend.

[Frazzle07]

It's a core feature of the game because the match day experience is very important in Football Manager. What's the point in signing and training players if you can't see them in action? Isn't it so much ncie to see your young academy player spray a 50 yard pass across the pitch rather than having a piece of text telling you? I understand what you are saying about it being a representation and the match engine is the most important part rather than how it is presented, but for someone like me who watches my game in extended highlights and gets excited when my player gets a one on one opportunity, the 3D match engine is very important. I believe that the 3D presentation, while not as important as the match engine its self, is still a core part of the game which is why SI continually improve it every year because they recognise that it's important to keep upgrading.

I feel that the resources they put into the 3D experience is not a waste but a much needed improvement. Both the match engine and the presentation of this engine wor k hand in hand. The better the 3D presentation looks, the better they can show of the match engine itself.

Thanks for the comment .

[daylight]

Then FIFA is your friend.

Now that is a pretty poor response,why would FIFA (that I have never ever played) be my "friend" just because I say the 3D match engine in FM is now an important part of the game?

I have played CM/FM for 15 years and I enjoyed it for more than just the 3D match engine,that does not take away that times have moved on and these days the 3D engine is very much an important part of the game.

[tomtuck01]

It's a core feature of the game because the match day experience is very important in Football Manager. What's the point in signing and training players if you can't see them in action? Isn't it so much ncie to see your young academy player spray a 50 yard pass across the pitch rather than having a piece of text telling you? I understand what you are saying about it being a representation and the match engine is the most important part rather than how it is presented, but for someone like me who watches my game in extended highlights and gets excited when my player gets a one on one opportunity, the 3D match engine is very important. I believe that the 3D presentation, while not as important as the match engine its self, is still a core part of the game which is why SI continually improve it every year because they recognise that it's important to keep upgrading.

I feel that the resources they put into the 3D experience is not a waste but a much needed improvement. Both the match engine and the presentation of this engine wor k hand in hand. The better the 3D presentation looks, the better they can show of the match engine itself.

Well thanks for that, captain obvious. With no ME, the 3D representation is completely redundant, as is the game, so of course the ME is more important than being able to watch it in 3D.

I watch the game in 2D, which is also extremely important to me as I can see how my tactics are working, (which is by the may much better than 3D). But I bet much fewer resources were ever needed to develop that than were required to develop the 3D view.

Also, please chech out the meaning if the word "core" if you are going to keep calling 3D a "core feature".

Core; The basic or most important part; the essence:

[tomtuck01]

Now that is a pretty poor response,why would FIFA (that I have never ever played) be my "friend" just because I say the 3D match engine in FM is now an important part of the game?

I have played CM/FM for 15 years and I enjoyed it for more than just the 3D match engine,that does not take away that times have moved on and these days the 3D engine is very much an important part of the game.

I'll repeat; there is no 3D engine.

And FIFA would be your friend because being able to view the game is much more important in FIFA as it is the essence of FIFA, and that is not the case with Football Manager.

[daylight]

I'll repeat; there is no 3D engine.

And FIFA would be your friend because being able to view the game is much more important in FIFA as it is the essence of FIFA, and that is not the case with Football Manager.

I think you know very well what I mean when I say "3D match engine" if you like I will go back and edit it to "3D highlights" if that will cheer you up.

I will just let you get on with your tantrum as I have no idea why you keep saying FIFA would be my friend.

I have never said anywhere I only play the game because of the 3D HIGHLIGHTS I said it is now an important part of the game for a lot of people.

I played the game for hours and hours on end without any 2D or 3D HIGHLIGHTS as they were not in the game,now they are in the game they should continue to work on improving them.

[Frazzle07]

In what way is the 2D view much better. I too use it for tweaking tactics as it is much easier to get a view of your players positioning but the 3D view gives a much more immersive match day experience. And why do you keep talking about FIFA? No-one players FM because of the graphics, we play it because it gives you the deep simulation of being a football manager. But the matches are very important in FM and the 3D view adds to this. Lots of people love it and so do I so I don't see how this is a waste of resources?

And I take your point about the definition of "core"...

[tomtuck01]

I think you know very well what I mean when I say "3D match engine" if you like I will go back and edit it to "3D highlights" if that will cheer you up.

I will just let you get on with your tantrum as I have no idea why you keep saying FIFA would be my friend.

I have never said anywhere I only play the game because of the 3D HIGHLIGHTS I said it is now an important part of the game for a lot of people.

I played the game for hours and hours on end without any 2D or 3D HIGHLIGHTS as they were not in the game,now they are in the game they should continue to work on improving them.

Honestly, funniest thing I've read in a loing time, considering I only said it once.

And well done in playing the game for a long time, you should be proud. Now please, stop detracting from what has been a very decent thread for a change here in GD.

[Frazzle07]

Please keep the thread nice, all these threads seem to end the same way and I don't want it to happen to this one!

[daylight]

Then FIFA is your friend.

And FIFA would be your friend

Indeed I will leave you to it.

[tomtuck01]

In what way is the 2D view much better. I too use it for tweaking tactics as it is much easier to get a view of your players positioning but the 3D view gives a much more immersive match day experience. And why do you keep talking about FIFA? No-one players FM because of the graphics, we play it because it gives you the deep simulation of being a football manager. But the matches are very important in FM and the 3D view adds to this. Lots of people love it and so do I so I don't see how this is a waste of resources?

And I take your point about the definition of "core"...

You kind on answered your first question it yourself - it's much better for tweaking tactics, and that (your tactics/formation) is something that is more important than being able to watch what is happening in 3D.

And I think it was/is a waste of resources, (not a total waste as I see the validity of it, just don't approve of it), as there are areas of the game that needed, and still do need, improving greatly. I personally think that AI squad builiding, transfers, player interaction, etc, are much more important to the game than being able to see what happens in 3D.

Indeed I will leave you to it.

Yep, I once said that FIFA is your friend, and another time that it would be. Thanks for proving me right.

Please keep the thread nice, all these threads seem to end the same way and I don't want it to happen to this one!

I quite agree with you.

[FrazT]

Enough of the bickering guys please.

[themoffster]

I agree with everything from the OP.

I just can't understand why SI don't say "in the release after this one, these are the areas we were going to improve - vote for the one we should prioritise"