Constructive Criticism (Of Steam)

[asdpoo]

Neil Brock, I'd like to ask something I find rather strange. Since you have some figures on sold and pirated copies, is it true that the game is heavily pirated in the UK? Somebody said so in another similar discussion a couple of weeks ago. I kinda understand if it is pirated in the ex-USSR and such, but in highly developed countries?

[PJHoutman88]

You are a sensible person who believes in buying products - the fact is, however, that not everyone is (which is why piracy is rampant).

I'm also confused as to how you can say I "believe" in buying products as if it's a choice (i.e. "believing" in communism or not). Buying products is the very basis of our economic system, it's not a by-product of economic development.

[Neil Brock]

Neil Brock, I'd like to ask something I find rather strange. Since you have some figures on sold and pirated copies, is it true that the game is heavily pirated in the UK? Somebody said so in another similar discussion a couple of weeks ago. I kinda understand if it is pirated in the ex-USSR and such, but in highly developed countries?

I'm afraid I'm not at liberty to reveal numbers but yes, I'm afraid in highly developed countries including the UK there is a large issue with piracy.

[Bertie BG]

You can't quantify it, but I think it's pretty undeniable that if there was no piracy a fair few of those who pirated would buy it instead. It's those people we're after and, by judging some of the comments on some websites we've been following, we're succeeding a little in that effect.

We never said we reckon we'll cut out piracy all together, but the longer we can delay it, the more people will get impatient waiting and will opt to buy the game instead.

It's about finding a balance between protecting our games without affecting, too much, the people who genuinely buy the game. We think we've done that this year with Steam, which is why we went for it. You disagree, which is an opinion you're entitled to.

We chose Steam because, not only did it offer us the best available protection against Piracy, it also adds all sorts of extra benefits to both us and those playing the game. In fact I believe that, even without the piracy debate, the benefits of having Steam outweigh the potential inconvenience of having to run it (which I believe is minimal). You disagree with that as well, which again your entitled to do so but that was the thought process behind it all and, as yet, we've not seen any reason to change that.

[Loversleaper]

I think that the ammount of hoops people have to jump through to make the game run is a little over the top, no matter what the reason was for it. The wrong people are taking the blame, plain and simple...

[Neil Dejyothin]

Because some customers suffer collateral damage (look at all the "I have Steam problems!" threads). In addition, there will be a loss of goodwill that will hurt SI in the long run, due to the lack of choice and the fact that stronger DRM has been imposed than before.

Thanks for all of your feedback, we understand clearly what your views are and where you stand, and we've taken them on board.

The majority of the points you've raised and the risk assessment to the business have already been considered, including this one here. As with any decision, including the development of new features, there is always going to be the potential for some kind of "collateral damage" to occur through natural evolution and progression and as always, we do our best to mitigate against those circumstances with every decision we make about every aspect of producing our games.

Using STEAM is not just about combatting piracy for us, as I've outlined in my post earlier in this thread. We've been in this business for many years and have seen technology and times change incredibly in that time, but we've always responded and adapted where necessary to ensure we prosper. I'd like to think that the majority of our users trust our judgement, will stick with us and consequently enjoy the games we have to offer and at this time, we are very pleased with how Football Manager 2012 is being performing and being received.

[BiggusD]

I'm glad someone has created a constructive thread as I've had so many issues with Steam over the last few days (lost save data, FM not starting numerous times, and I've just witnessed a total blackout mid-match that rendered my Mac useless until I did a manual reboot - something I despise doing) that I've decided if SI force Steam activation again I won't buy any more in the series.

I used Steam before FM12, for Audiosurf when I had a Windows PC and for Portal on my Mac. I never had any real issues, just the occasional time when the program wouldn't open for some reason. I was never hugely against it, but it's undeniably unstable and extremely erratic. However, with games like the aforementioned Audiosurf and Portal, you immerse yourself and don't need to/have time to switch between multiple programmes. With FM, the loading times make flicking an inevitability. However, on a Mac, this is an incredibly cumbersome task, almost impossible for two reasons:

a) The game isn't properly made for Macs. Windowed mode doesn't fit properly, and even with the package contents workaround the game slows right down for a reason I can't fathom, and the ME becomes extremely jumpy.

b) Because of the processing power and RAM that Steam/FM eat up, the Mac can't even perform a simple task like scroll between programs using cmd + tab when in full-screen mode (how I like to play the game). Well, it can if the game isn't loading anything at that particular moment, but it will auto-revert back to windowed mode etc etc. All very cumbersome.

My Macbook Pro simply can't handle Steam and FM running at the same time, which is of course a requirement for the game. It's not inferior technology, I bought the Mac less than 3 months ago and it has a decent processor (albeit not a super one), but my 'Free Memory' app shows that Steam is a massive resource-eater, by far the biggest of any application or program on the system. Right now, with Steam and FM closed, my Mac has 2GB of free memory, despite having Chrome, Mail, and iTunes open. That's half of the total memory. Having iTunes and FM open simultaneously is a distant (Windows) dream thanks to Steam's resource-eating, but even when the only applications I have running are FM and Steam, my free memory goes right down to about 300MB, and during a match has gone to as low as 23MB - dangerously low as anyone who has an iota of knowledge about computers will know.

The Mac's system requirements easily match the requirements for FM10 + FM11, I can't check 12 because I bought the game as a download. I don't imagine they'd be too much different though. Either the system requirements are wrong, or you haven't taken into account just how much of a resource-eater Steam is.

I'm not a hater of Steam, but it certainly does not go well with Football Manager. Please SI, please, do not force activation through Steam again. And if you do, please make it so that it is just literally an activation check and we don't require both programs to be open at the same time, because that is what is killing the game for me really. And it's a shame, because it's a great game.

I stopped reading right there...

[anagain]

Personally I'm 100% behind SI on this issue. They've stamped out piracy for their game, which is a damn site more than many other games developers have managed to do.

I play a lot of games and I've seen some awful copy protection in my time. There was the Ubisoft game where you had to be online to play the game...and that was fine until their servers kept going down and no one could play the game they paid for. Then there was the way FM did it the other year with having to authorise your game with a code. It didn't work and it caused a huge backlog of users trying to autheticate their game. The forums were full of people complaining and that's pretty much why SI went the way they did last year; having Steam and no anti-piracy but having to have the disk in your machine.

That doesn't stop piracy though, but this year's protocol has.

If you ask me I can't help but feel there will be a lot of other developers out there looking at how SI has performed against piracy. They will then be discussing the merits of using Steam in this way. I'd welcome it.

Yes there's people out there complaining they have issues and they can't play the game. How many of those issues are down to the user not doing things properly, rather than the fault of Steam? I've had nothing bar a few minor connection problems in three years of using Steam, and those connection problems haven't been seen for a couple of years. It's a reliable tool that doesn't hog my system, it doesn't interfere with my AV and it doesn't go wrong.

I'd rather have having to authenticate the game with Steam than an always online service, such as Ubi's, or something like SecuROM. If you think the grumbles about Steam have been bad here, then you want to see arguments against SecuROM on game forums.

If the folks at SI can think of a way to stamp out gold sellers in MMOs then please pass them on to the MMO developers. You seem to have won this one, so maybe you can beat that virus as well.

[phnompenhandy]

I've changed my mind.

In the 42-pqge thread before release, I made a few posts strongly opposed to the compulsory activation through Steam. This was not due to sharing a view with x42, but because of the nightmare I went through with FM09 - the time and money it cost me in a third world country with expensive unreliable internet could fill a page. This time I have to say the activation went very smoothly for me and I've got it configured to stay off-line so it's unobtrusive. I don't care about their achievements or other gimmicks, but as long as Steam stays out of my face and let's me play like the old days, I'm fine with that.

For me, therefore, SI are vindicated. They have every right to hamper piracy and I'm glad they've succeeded so far. Even if in the coming weeks the game is cracked it shouldn't hit the company badly since the vast majority of FM12 sales have now been made. I understand that a minority of fans have had/are having problems with Steam and I trust SI are doing everything to help them.

[Robsy1990]

I stopped reading right there...

Can I ask why?

[Peljam]

Can't say I've ever really had a problem with steam. I've got plenty of games, editors and DLC on mine. It runs smoothly and it is very convenient when it comes to installation/uninstallation. I'd expect any decent game to be available via steam really. If FM12 wasn't available on steam I would have had concerns really (So you can't win SI )

As a DRM system is doesn't seem very intrusive, and as a program itself I find it useful, and easy to use. Those who have had problems have been receiving support, an unprecedented amount of support really if you compare how other companies work. Also, I don't want to make sweeping generalisations if I can help it but I'm losing track of the amount of complaint threads about steam where the issue has actually been down to the user rather than the program (driver issues, being under spec etc). That's not to say there aren't users experiencing steam problems but I feel the number who actually are is much smaller than it would initially appear.

On the piracy front....the main reason why the 'piracy is not theft' motto is used so heavily lies more with psychology than legality. Cognitive dissonance. Individuals don't want to be consider criminals or theives but they also want the prodcut for nothing. So it's justified as not technically being theft, as being a by-product, as being unavoidable, as being something lots of people do, as being harmless. All so it is easier to square away actions with ideals.

I should probably just point out. I don't think piracy is theft. I think it's fraud.

[Guest]

I've changed my mind.

In the 42-pqge thread before release, I made a few posts strongly opposed to the compulsory activation through Steam. This was not due to sharing a view with x42, but because of the nightmare I went through with FM09 - the time and money it cost me in a third world country with expensive unreliable internet could fill a page. This time I have to say the activation went very smoothly for me and I've got it configured to stay off-line so it's unobtrusive. I don't care about their achievements or other gimmicks, but as long as Steam stays out of my face and let's me play like the old days, I'm fine with that.

For me, therefore, SI are vindicated. They have every right to hamper piracy and I'm glad they've succeeded so far. Even if in the coming weeks the game is cracked it shouldn't hit the company badly since the vast majority of FM12 sales have now been made. I understand that a minority of fans have had/are having problems with Steam and I trust SI are doing everything to help them.

WHS

I threw my arms wildly in the air when the announcement was made, this was also due to having a bad experience with Steam in 09 & I didn't have the drawback of living in a 3rd world country (that's right Daily Mail readers). Since then I have installed Steam, set it to my liking & a month later it is still sitting there doing no harm to me or my PC.

[Robsy1990]

As I previously said, my only issue with Steam is how much room it takes up. I guess that's not really SI's fault so will be looking to replace the 4GB of RAM with an 8GB one (hopefully will prevent the screen from blacking out & my other minor issues - I'm assuming that was a memory problem). It will still be slightly annoying to have to have it running in the background, but other than that I don't see what the problem with Steam is.

I also think that piracy is more fraud than it is theft, but as Neil and the guys have said, it's still illegal however way you look at it. Not sure why it needs to be discussed any further than that?

[Peljam]

I also think that piracy is more fraud than it is theft, but as Neil and the guys have said, it's still illegal however way you look at it. Not sure why it needs to be discussed any further than that?

I agree, illegal is illegal. Just to clarify I didn't mean to suggest that because it was more fraud than theft that it was okay. Just that the battle cry about it not being theft rings hollow when it is just a difficult type of illegality

[TotallyRathen]

I'd like to point out that I looked the game up on a very popular piracy website, and the only torrent for it is full of people frothing at the mouth because there is no crack for it. Looks like Steam has worked in this regard. I do love Steam, and will be enjoying my game whilst those who are vehemently against it will have to find something else to do.

[ms998]

As this appears to be a suitable place for this

What other DRM enabled solutions did SI/Sega consider? Even though I'm not a huge fan of origin, some competition in the download market would help.

[BiggusD]

Can I ask why?

Steam cannot cause you to lose save data from FM. Saves are stored locally.

[glyndav]

"a) The game isn't properly made for Macs. Windowed mode doesn't fit properly, and even with the package contents workaround the game slows right down for a reason I can't fathom, and the ME becomes extremely jumpy.

b) Because of the processing power and RAM that Steam/FM eat up, the Mac can't even perform a simple task like scroll between programs using cmd + tab when in full-screen mode (how I like to play the game). Well, it can if the game isn't loading anything at that particular moment, but it will auto-revert back to windowed mode etc etc. All very cumbersome.

My Macbook Pro simply can't handle Steam and FM running at the same time, which is of course a requirement for the game. It's not inferior technology, I bought the Mac less than 3 months ago and it has a decent processor (albeit not a super one), but my 'Free Memory' app shows that Steam is a massive resource-eater, by far the biggest of any application or program on the system. Right now, with Steam and FM closed, my Mac has 2GB of free memory, despite having Chrome, Mail, and iTunes open. That's half of the total memory. Having iTunes and FM open simultaneously is a distant (Windows) dream thanks to Steam's resource-eating, but even when the only applications I have running are FM and Steam, my free memory goes right down to about 300MB, and during a match has gone to as low as 23MB - dangerously low as anyone who has an iota of knowledge about computers will know."

Sorry, but there is something wrong with your Mac if that is the case. I am running FM on a Macbook Pro through Steam with multiple leagues and large database loaded, so the most resource heavy it can be and I get no issues whatsoever. Whilst playing the game, I normally have Mail, Safari and Logic open and notice no degradation of performance in any open program.

If you have only a three month old macbook pro and it is using up all of your resources, it is definitely not the game or steam that is causing that, your computer is far far too good for that to happen.

Also, how do you mean windowed mode doesn't fit properly? That is how I normally play it and it fits fine.

[alucasa]

How can a new Mac not handle Steam and FM ?

Even 10 year old P4 can handle those two with ease. I have to say that you are making it up. Steam uses virtually no resources.

[Guest]

Steam is known to be a piece of garbage when used on OSX, please research subjects before calling someone a liar.

[Jibby123]

The online activation crap, Steam or not, peeves me.

It's fine for the marketing suits sipping their latte's and gobbing off in their i-phones but a shedload of peeps won't play FM yet because maybe their 'protecting UK interests overseas' (Don't laugh ) or in increasing recessions the suits might not consider that the tinternet might be the first thing to be binned on family budgets.

Steam rapes my computer for personal information?? Nobody has yet explained why that's a good thing for me.

[tiagotgp]

I know this is off-topic but I wanted to write this here since the developers are here wasting time talking about piracy.

Seriously I just wanted to know when is the game crashing after team talk is going to be fixed because honestly paying for the game and not being able to play it to the full extent is minimally frustrating especially when watching developers disregarding the Maintenance phase of the game to discuss piracy.

Please understand that I just want to play for what I paid and not just to have an idle icon in my Desktop.

[SCIAG]

The online activation crap, Steam or not, peeves me.

It's fine for the marketing suits sipping their latte's and gobbing off in their i-phones but a shedload of peeps won't play FM yet because maybe their 'protecting UK interests overseas' (Don't laugh ) or in increasing recessions the suits might not consider that the tinternet might be the first thing to be binned on family budgets.

Steam rapes my computer for personal information?? Nobody has yet explained why that's a good thing for me.

Only 4% of the activated games for FM09 were down the phone, the rest were online. At worst, SI are losing 4% of their customers by forcing them to have an internet connection. They might end up losing more by forcing them to use Steam (though I hope anyone who would be prepared to buy the game but doesn't want to use Steam would still buy the game).

Apparently Steam doesn't collect any data if you untick the relevant boxes.

[Neil Dejyothin]

I know this is off-topic but I wanted to write this here since the developers are here wasting time talking about piracy.

Seriously I just wanted to know when is the game crashing after team talk is going to be fixed because honestly paying for the game and not being able to play it to the full extent is minimally frustrating especially when watching developers disregarding the Maintenance phase of the game to discuss piracy.

Please understand that I just want to play for what I paid and not just to have an idle icon in my Desktop.

This appears to be your first post on the forum. If you are having an issue, please post it in the relevant forum (Technical Issues) and provide as much information as you can and someone will try to assist you.

[tiagotgp]

Thanks for the reply.

I checked the FAQs and it said there you were working on it so I assumed it was a general bug.

[Neil Dejyothin]

Thanks for the reply.

I checked the FAQs and it said there you were working on it so I assumed it was a general bug.

This isn't a general bug at all. In your case, if you are trying to enter a match, it's possible it's hardware related. You could try several things to check this by lowering the Graphical Detail to turning off some of the graphical options one by one, such as Crowds and Weather, etc, or turning off 3D completely.

[Robsy1990]

How can a new Mac not handle Steam and FM ?

Even 10 year old P4 can handle those two with ease. I have to say that you are making it up. Steam uses virtually no resources.

Oh yes, that's right, I enjoy writing massive elaborate lies on forums about issues I'm having with my computer/a program, just for the sheer thrill Don't be an idiot. Don't tell me it uses virtually no resources when Activity Monitor is telling me right now it's using up just under a third of my Mac's resources - almost 20% more than the amount of the next program.

Sorry, but there is something wrong with your Mac if that is the case. I am running FM on a Macbook Pro through Steam with multiple leagues and large database loaded, so the most resource heavy it can be and I get no issues whatsoever. Whilst playing the game, I normally have Mail, Safari and Logic open and notice no degradation of performance in any open program.

If you have only a three month old macbook pro and it is using up all of your resources, it is definitely not the game or steam that is causing that, your computer is far far too good for that to happen.

Having delved a little deeper I think it may be something to do with my RAM. What are the specs on your Mac? Mine only has 4GB of memory, and I think this may be part of the problem. I am going to upgrade my RAM to 8GB and se if it makes a difference.

I do have a large database with 130,000 players from 75 different leagues loaded, so was expecting some slowdown, but I've always played with large databases and never had issues before.

Also, how do you mean windowed mode doesn't fit properly? That is how I normally play it and it fits fine.

Well it's not just me that has had issues with Windowed, because there is a full official topic on these very forums of how to get around it. Basically in windowed mode the bottom of the screen is chopped off and there is no way to retrieve or resize it without editing a file in the 'Package Contents' folder - basically making it look like you're in full screen mode when you're actually in windowed mode. The workaround does work, but when I turned on FM afterwards the ME was no longer smooth. I will look again now to see if it is any better. A bonus of this also is it also recognises Mac genstures, working around the issue of program scrolling I previously mentioned.

[Optimistic Dave]

Piracy is not theft. A pirate could buy the product in the end. A pirate might show off the game to friends, and one of those friends might buy even if the original pirate doesn't. A pirate could download it multiple times, inflating the figures. A pirate might not have even bought the software for £0.01, so you would never have made money off that pirate anyway (if piracy didn't exist, that person simply wouldn't buy it anyway).

Because piracy has a (possibly slim) chance of growing your customer base, killing piracy for the sake of killing piracy is a bad idea. Converting pirates, however, is a good idea and it is how it should be done.

So thieves (pirates gives the wrong impression - they are thieves) are actually doing SI a favour as they are marketing the game?

Anyway, you contradict yourself. You say these thieves wouldn't buy it anyway, then you go on to propose that these thieves should be persuaded by SI (how??) to turn to the Light Side.

I really don't follow this argument.

[glyndav]

Robsy,

Got to be honest, the windowed mode one was new to me! I'll double check myself.

With your memory issues, what is Steam showing in Activity Monitor? I've just set up a new game with the same amount of leagues loaded and 130000 players and it never goes above 175mb for me, with FM using at most 700 but normally lower. With other programs open, I am still showing around a gig of free memory (I have 4 gig as well).

More memory would fix it definitely, however there seems to be another underlying issue there.

[ms998]

Whats not right is your computer - sort that then steam - then FM

[chairman meow]

Ok this debate seems to be based on things that are largely irrelevant to the issue at hand. Is piracy theft? Who cares, it doesn't matter in this situation (it isn't btw). Is SI/SEGA only after the money? Tangentially related but still irrelevant (the answer is no but it is the overwhelming factor in the decision). Is Steam a horrible piece of software? Even this question doesn't matter (the answer is no for the most part, but it doesn't add anything to my experience and I don't want it). So what is the issue? Consumer rights, as I believe someone may have fanned on. Apologies if it was discussed more indepth I took a while to write this and I took a many hour long break from when I started.

To anyone who isn't a SI/SEGA employee and to anyone who hasn't pirated the FM series, why do you support the decision to use Steam exclusively? First off some don't, I think many don't in fact. Good on you. To those that do support the decision, what good does it do you? Do you enjoy not having a choice? Even if the choice is one you like? If you only vote Labour, would you not like having anyone to oppose and criticize them? Even if the candidate in your riding is corrupt? Do you still want no choice?

So the only points I've heard are A) Steam is awesome and B) We need to stop piracy to continue funding the game. Obviously the former has been discussed a lot and you may agree with the statement, but there is nothing that says it should be the only choice. There are a million things that can go wrong with Steam and the internet. Even if they never happen to you why would you want to take that risk? What's in it for you? I'd love an answer. What if the apocalypse happens and Steam's servers go offline before you install the game? Again let's assume Steam is great. Just tell me why we consumers shouldn't have a choice? That brings us to B and an even weaker argument. So is this game losing money? No a game with yearly releases like this is generally very profitable (unless SI/SEGA want to correct me???). Is the game going to cease to exist if Steam doesn't have exclusive activation rights? Of course not. If SI/SEGA can make a Pound off the game it will be developed. That is the only fear for the consumer, will this game exist in the future. Let's assume here for a second that piracy puts a dent in the bottom line. Do you care? The answer based on a self interest stance is no, it does not matter to the consumer. But many of you may say yes. Ok irrational human, but is it enough to sacrifice choice and your consumer rights? Is there a limit to your irrational sacrifice? What if now you just had to stay connected to the internet the whole time? What if you had to have a registered national I.D. card that you had to swipe and also do a eye scan before you can play? Just to make sure there were no pirates playing and SI/SEGA make another Pound? Why would you sacrifice anything when you don't have to? Well since it's not your choice at least why would you without putting up a fight? I'll let you in on a secret too, even if they make any measurable amount of money by trying to stop pirates (which they won't of course) it won't be enough to affect the quality of the game or afford PL rights or something. It will go to SEGA shareholders and the CEO.

What I'm getting at is there shouldn't be anyone who supports Steam only activation unless you are in the employ of SEGA/SI/Valve. If you like Steam then use it. I realize it offers many things to people and if it is something that contributes to a good experience then great. You'll get no argument from me. Just don't be apathetic towards this issue no matter how you feel about Steam. It isn't about that. It's about consumer rights and freedom from being forced to do something. I'm trying to approach this from a self-interest stand point though because I think any kind of goodwill towards the community arguments would be dismissed (even though I feel those are equally if not more valid).

And a little extra from me personally...

Yes I hear it already "If you don't like it then just don't buy it! No one is forcing you to do anything." It's not about that. I plan to buy it when I can find it priced at under $20 as long as it's not purchased through Steam. 50% of the price I normally buy it at is punishment enough for SI for now at least from me. To the point though not buying it isn't really an option. I want this game. But I want to make my voice heard as a customer that I do not approve of this. I would like every person on this board to say that too, there is no reason not to. You are giving things up needlessly. And even worse than the ones that don't really care are the one's who support this! Think about it for a minute and tell me why you want to take away your own choices. A huge problem in general in today's Western societies is complacency and apathy. Also voting/doing things against one's own interests. Everything our Westernized society has fought for and achieved over the centuries is slowly being taken away from us from big brother governments and corporations and no one seems to care. lol not that that is quite on the same scale and importance as this obviously but it is similar.

[Bertie BG]

Leeroytmofo - I've deleted your posts because you are encouraging piracy of the game. Please do repost without mentioning it as the rest of what you are saying is very relevant to this discussion, otherwise you'll end up being banned.

Piracy, at the end of the day, is illegal and we do not allow anyone to discuss doing so, even in the terms of last resorts, on these forums.

[Optimistic Dave]

And a little extra from me personally...

Yes I hear it already "If you don't like it then just don't buy it! No one is forcing you to do anything." It's not about that. I plan to buy it when I can find it priced at under $20 as long as it's not purchased through Steam. 50% of the price I normally buy it at is punishment enough for SI for now at least from me. To the point though not buying it isn't really an option. I want this game. But I want to make my voice heard as a customer that I do not approve of this. I would like every person on this board to say that too, there is no reason not to. You are giving things up needlessly. And even worse than the ones that don't really care are the one's who support this! Think about it for a minute and tell me why you want to take away your own choices. A huge problem in general in today's Western societies is complacency and apathy. Also voting/doing things against one's own interests. Everything our Westernized society has fought for and achieved over the centuries is slowly being taken away from us from big brother governments and corporations and no one seems to care. lol not that that is quite on the same scale and importance as this obviously but it is similar.

Why should we rise up and support your anti capitalist crusade? I've used Steam for years, relatively problem free. I couldn't give a monkeys about your "principled" standpoint. Leave me out of it. You say "apathy", I say "quiet approval". Keep an eye out on Steam for special offers - already 25% off!

[Sir Stuart Wilson]

Whether piracy is theft is a bit of a moot point. Piracy is Piracy. It's illegal and it's unfair on legitimate customers. Would a pirate buy the game if they had no other choice? In some cases yes, in some no. Piracy does need to be stamped out either way.

I don't agree with this regardless of the Steam activation this year the game will at some point be hacked/cracked/pirated so you have ultimately risk disenfranchising a number of loyal customers who will not purchase or have an operational game yet the game will still inevitably be pirated. Given that iirc FM11 had no DRM at all yet recorded record sales?

So now you possibly face having fewer sales legitimate customers and still see the piracy of the game at some expense? Tbh this seems to be at he hand of SEGA as SI has been renowned in the gaming community for its close communication and interaction with its fanbase and customers however over the last few years since the link up with SEGA sadly this view has been somewhat compromised.

[leeroytmofo]

Leeroytmofo - I've deleted your posts because you are encouraging pirating of the game. Please do repost without mentioning it as the rest of what you are saying is very relevant to this discussion, otherwise you'll end up being banned.

Piracy, at the end of the day, is illegal and we do not allow anyone to discuss doing so on these forums.

Can I stress here then that I DON'T pirate software and DON'T believe anyone should.

I'm unfortunately trying to discuss some of the lengths I am now having to go through to play something I own.

Sorry for mentioning specific sites etc.

My point is: there are many who have bought and paid for FM2012 who are now having to look on pirate sites so that they can find a patch to play a game they've purchased. Mad no?

[Bertie BG]

Can I stress here then that I DON'T pirate software and DON'T believe anyone should.

I'm unfortunately trying to discuss some of the lengths I am now having to go through to play something I own.

Sorry for mentioning specific sites etc.

My point is: there are many who have bought and paid for FM2012 who are now having to look on pirate sites so that they can find a patch to play a game they've purchased. Mad no?

Why do you need to look at pirate sites to play the game though? There are very few, if any, problems with Steam that can't be sorted. All you need to do is ask in the appropriate place and one of our team will be glad to help.

[leeroytmofo]

Why do you need to look at pirate sites to play the game though? There are very few, if any, problems with Steam that can't be sorted. All you need to do is ask in the appropriate place and one of our team will be glad to help.

Please don't do this.

There are obviously a whole host of problems with Steam, otherwise me and countless others wouldn't have issue with it crashing the hell out of our machines.

I have a life. I don't have time to spend ages uninstalling and reinstalling everything on my PC just because a piece of software I don't use (but have been forced to use) is having problems.

I'm not going to remove the entire contents of my PC to try and get the 1 thing crashing it working.

I need to look at pirate sites because when there is a patch to remove Steam I will be able to apply it and play the game (something which cost me £30!) within about 30 seconds.

It's convenience, but also please don't assume I haven't arsed around with Steam trying to get it to work in the past.

For something that doesn't have any problems that can't be fixed I personally know A LOT of people who have issue with it.

In fairness, I know a lot more who have no issue at all.

The assumption there isn't a significant minority who can't use Steam that haven't been shafted probably isn't going to do SI/Sega any favours though.

[m@rk]

I don't often post but have lurked for a while..

I installed Steam for FM11 as I kept leaving the disk at home when I went away and would miss out on making Everton the best team in the world - didnt manage that though! , had no problems whatsoever. When FM12 was announced and that you would need Steam i decided to buy from Steam rather than a shop and have a pointless disk lying around, so pre-downloaded and then activated and away I went. Like many others I found the process to be pretty straightforward and hassle free. My only problem now is that I'm a useless manager and Everton will never be successful with me at the helm.....now is there a patch for that??

[Bertie BG]

As I said, all you need to do to get help getting Steam working on your computer is ask in the appropriate forum and one of our experts will do what they can to help you with that. I'm yet to see a Steam specific problem (although admittedly I'm not one of the experts on it) that hasn't been solvable in some form or another.

For the record:

a) downloading a pirated crack, even if you've bought the game originally, is still against the terms of the game's EULA and is in effect, still illegal.

b) if you do so, you risk rendering the game useless as we make no guarantees of how well it will work. You will, in all likelyhood, worsen your experience playing the game beyond what you are experiencing now, if you do so.

If you're the honest consumer you say you are, let us help you get the game working on your computer.

Steam, in my experience, and those of I'm sure the millions of others who use it regularly, is a seamless, easy to use and resource friendly bit of software that only adds benefit to playing games on a PC/Mac. It really is a minority who are having issues and most, if not all of those, are solvable.

I'm sorry you've been having issues yourself, but you can't really blame us if you won't let us try and help you fix them?

[TeeWee]

Why should we rise up and support your anti capitalist crusade? I've used Steam for years, relatively problem free. I couldn't give a monkeys about your "principled" standpoint. Leave me out of it. You say "apathy", I say "quiet approval". Keep an eye out on Steam for special offers - already 25% off!

It's not an anticapitalist crusade he's arguing.

The analogy he's looking for is a CD/DVD only era and SI/Sega only distributed the game through e.g. HMV. Now, HMV may or may not be an awesome store, and they may have the best internal distribution line security (preventing 0-day piracy), but I don't think many of you would like being given no choice but to go to HMV to buy the game.

The complaint is not against Steam per se, but being forced to shop at Steam. A potential customer can have all sorts of problems with Steam that are unrelated to the technical awesomeness of Steam; there may have been a poor customer-service contact which have ruined Steam for that customer (have you ever sworn to never set foot in a store because of exceedingly poor service?); he may have already invested heavily into a different online-store (for example, Impulse) and doesn't want to add another one;

The point is, having choice is better than no choice. I can understand users going for Steam, but I also question SI for forcing me to opt for Steam in the first place.

In my analogy: I may not want to shop at HMV for my own personal reasons. If it were available from any other store, it would be fine; just not HMV.

Note: I'm not against Steam as such and may (or may not) buy the game from Steam. Though it will then be the first Steam-installed game; so it is going to be a hurdle for me (because it does add another bit of footprint to my computer).

[leeroytmofo]

As I said, all you need to do to get help getting Steam working on your computer is ask in the appropriate forum and one of our experts will do what they can to help you with that. I'm yet to see a Steam specific problem (although admittedly I'm not one of the experts on it) that hasn't been solvable in some form or another.

For the record:

a) downloading a pirated crack is still against the terms of the game's EULA and is in effect, still illegal.

b) if you do so, you risk rendering the game useless as we make no guarantees of how well it will work. You will, in all likelyhood, worsen your experience playing the game beyond what you are experiencing now, if you do so.

If you're the honest consumer you say you are, let us help you get the game working on your computer.

Steam, in my experience, and those of I'm sure the millions of others who use it regularly, is a seamless, easy to use and resource friendly bit of software that only adds benefit to playing games on a PC/Mac. It really is a minority who are having issues and most, if not all of those, are solvable.

I'm sorry you've been having issues yourself, but you can't really blame us if you won't let us try and help you fix them?

I don't blame anyone at all mate.

Again, the "if you're really the honest consumer you say you are" comment was unneeded, but I'm getting used to it - Steam crashes really don't exist, and anyone that suggest they do is obviously a pirate etc etc....

If I try to start Steam my laptop freezes and crashes.

Every time.

Always has.

Thankfully I've never been in the situation where the crash has damaged my Windows boot or anything nasty like that, but I certainly don't like even trying to run it and have avoided trying again until now.

A fresh install and a nasty crash this time around and I probably won't touch it again.

Does look like I won't be touching FM again any time soon if it stays solely on Steam.

Once again, is there really no one I can ring with my activation code to get this game started? If not it's a refund and continuing with FM2011 for me. Luckily for FM, Fifa Manager still looks gash ;-)

[Bertie BG]

I do understand the argument for choice and in many ways I can support that, but the problem is that the more choice we give, the more routes there are to pirating the game.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, our defences against piracy are only as strong as our weakest link. We've tried alternative activation methods in the past and we've been cracked well in advance of release day. We've tried Disc in Tray methods in the past and we've also been cracked well in advance of release day.

This year, we're making a serious effort to stop pre-release piracy (which we have) and delay post-release piracy for as long as possible (which, to my knowledge, is working so far).

If there were better ways of protecting the game that was more convenient to the honest consumer, we would have taken it. However, at this moment in time, Steam offers us the best defences against piracy that are currently available and does so in a way that, we believe, only benefits those playing the game as it also brings added benefits such as community integration, the ability to roll out and download updates on the fly, achievements, the ability to download and play the game just by logging into an account and more.

You may argue that it's still not enough and that it's too still too much to ask, and that's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. The bottom line though for us is that this year we believe we're offering a product that combats piracy effectively whilst still being of benefit to those playing the game.

If we're wrong, time will tell and we'll obviously look at other options in the future, but so far we're confident we've made the right choice.

[Bertie BG]

I don't blame anyone at all mate.

Again, the "if you're really the honest consumer you say you are" comment was unneeded, but I'm getting used to it - Steam crashes really don't exist, and anyone that suggest they do is obviously a pirate etc etc....

If I try to start Steam my laptop freezes and crashes.

Every time.

Always has.

Thankfully I've never been in the situation where the crash has damaged my Windows boot or anything nasty like that, but I certainly don't like even trying to run it and have avoided trying again until now.

A fresh install and a nasty crash this time around and I probably won't touch it again.

Does look like I won't be touching FM again any time soon if it stays solely on Steam.

Once again, is there really no one I can ring with my activation code to get this game started? If not it's a refund and continuing with FM2011 for me. Luckily for FM, Fifa Manager still looks gash ;-)

The reason I said the "honest as you say you are" quote, is that you've constantly referred to searching for cracks for the game. Cracks, as explained, are still illegal whether you've bought the game or not, so I think it was justified. I apologise if I've misunderstood your posts though.

In short, no. The only way to activate the game this year is through Steam. I would still really encourage you to just start a thread in the appropriate forum asking for help though, we may be able to help, you never know

If that's still a problem for you, then do contact the retailer you bought the game off for a refund. We'd be sorry to lose you as a customer, but I'm not sure what else I can suggest.

[leeroytmofo]

I do understand the argument for choice and in many ways I can support that, but the problem is that the more choice we give, the more routes there are to pirating the game.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, our defences against piracy are only as strong as our weakest link. We've tried alternative activation methods in the past and we've been cracked well in advance of release day. We've tried Disc in Tray methods in the past and we've also been cracked well in advance of release day.

This year, we're making a serious effort to stop pre-release piracy (which we have) and delay post-release piracy for as long as possible (which, to my knowledge, is working so far).

If there were better ways of protecting the game that was more convenient to the honest consumer, we would have taken it. However, at this moment in time, Steam offers us the best defences against piracy that are currently available and does so in a way that, we believe, only benefits those playing the game as it also brings added benefits such as community integration, the ability to roll out and download updates on the fly, achievements, the ability to download and play the game just by logging into an account and more.

You may argue that it's still not enough and that it's too still too much to ask, and that's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion. The bottom line though for us is that this year we believe we're offering a product that combats piracy effectively whilst still being of benefit to those playing the game.

If we're wrong, time will tell and we'll obviously look at other options in the future, but so far we're confident we've made the right choice.

I can attest it's definitely stopped pre-release piracy and there's still nothing out there looking like vaguely cracking the game in the near future ;-)

I do understand the arguments for the route you've gone down... I suppose I'm just frustrated I can't play at the moment as a direct result!

What about when Steam IS cracked though (this will happen at some point as I'm sure you're aware).

Any plans for an alternate activation method later down the line?

I will obviously return the game for now as there seems little point keeping hold of something I can't play that may well drop in price in the future. Would be really good to get to play it at some point though without having to resort to a crack.

From a personal point of view, a really well put together interactive element would have been the best way to combat piracy for me. Something like Xbox Live that boots pirated gamers and rewards those who pay and support you.

You could even charge for updates and extras if you did that ;-)

[Welshace]

personally , ive never understood the argument against steam... the benefits of it are immense and the drawbacks are miniscule and easily overcome...

its simply a brilliant platform which provides instant updates, information, tools and a community aspect to the game...

i add all my non steam games to steam aswell...

i can only assume those against it are simply adverse to change...

i can only congratulate SI for making the choice to move fully to steam.

[Bertie BG]

From a personal point of view, a really well put together interactive element would have been the best way to combat piracy for me. Something like Xbox Live that boots pirated gamers and rewards those who pay and support you.

You could even charge for updates and extras if you did that ;-)

In many ways, that's exactly what Steam is

What about when Steam IS cracked though (this will happen at some point as I'm sure you're aware).

Any plans for an alternate activation method later down the line?

I'm sure it will be cracked at some point, we're under no illusions there.

We're constantly reviewing the situation, but right now, they're aren't any plans to change anything.

[leeroytmofo]

personally , ive never understood the argument against steam... the benefits of it are immense and the drawbacks are miniscule and easily overcome...

its simply a brilliant platform which provides instant updates, information, tools and a community aspect to the game...

i add all my non steam games to steam aswell...

i can only assume those against it are simply adverse to change...

i can only congratulate SI for making the choice to move fully to steam.

This is a bit like saying because it's brilliant and reliable for you it must be for everyone else.

Unfortunately no 2 PCs are the same and inevitably there are some of us who slip through the cracks mate.

Glad you're happy and it works for you though.

But it's not a change thing (unless the change I'm adverse to is a crashed PC)...

[Guest]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, our defences against piracy are only as strong as our weakest link. We've tried alternative activation methods in the past and we've been cracked well in advance of release day. We've tried Disc in Tray methods in the past and we've also been cracked well in advance of release day.

That would be a problem with your production centre (do Sega press the DVD's in-house?) or your retail partners as these are surely the only sources that can be used to obtain copies of the game prior to release.

There are really only two solutions to this, invest heavily in investigating the source of any leaked code in a fruitless attempt to bring criminal charges against a single individual or move to digital only distribution via a select group of trusted online retail partners which will allow much greater control of your product.

[Bertie BG]

There are really only two solutions to this, invest heavily in investigating the source of any leaked code in a fruitless attempt to bring criminal charges against a single individual or move to digital only distribution via a select group of trusted online retail partners which will allow absolute control of your product.

On your first suggestion, even if we did manage to plug every leak before release day, many (if not most) alternative methods of protection would still have been hacked within hours of the game being released. It may not be quite as bad as pre-release piracy, but it's still incredibly damaging and doesn't really solve the problem.

Your second suggestion would be even more inconvenient to the genuine purchaser than what we're suggesting now, and again, once the game is out there doesn't necessarily mean it's well protected.

We (or to be exact, the experts at SEGA) looked at every solution available and none would offer as good a protection as what we're doing now without causing a lot more inconvenience to the genuine consumer.

[solstar]

One thing I dislike of Steam and a major fact that is continuously overlooked.

The terms & Conditions state that by using steam to activate a product you are placing that product entirely in the hands of steam and the Steam network has the right to remove your use of the system if it feels you have violated its use. Now, I have no idea what constitutes violation but I buy the product, not Steam therefore what right do Steam have to take away my product and forbid me from using it?

THIS is the one area I majorly disagree with and something that EVERYONE appears to have overlooked.

Taken from Valve T&C's -

All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors.

and

In the case of a free Subscription, Valve may choose to terminate or amend the terms of the Subscription as provided in the "Amendments to this Agreement" section above