Constructive Criticism (Of Steam)

[Joga]

I'm not sure how that logically follows. Studies show that people are willing to pay for something - after all, this is why SI make money, after all. It doesn't imply that things should be free with an option to pay.

If studies show that people are willing to pay for this game why is this still piracy? So if you are just going to test the game or, show it to your friends you pay 0, because you are not really playing it, but if you are going to play it you should pay for it.

Okay this logic fault is that it requires piracy to be okay, and it's not

[Visitor13]

I'm glad someone has created a constructive thread as I've had so many issues with Steam over the last few days (lost save data, FM not starting numerous times, and I've just witnessed a total blackout mid-match that rendered my Mac useless until I did a manual reboot - something I despise doing) that I've decided if SI force Steam activation again I won't buy any more in the series.

I used Steam before FM12, for Audiosurf when I had a Windows PC and for Portal on my Mac. I never had any real issues, just the occasional time when the program wouldn't open for some reason. I was never hugely against it, but it's undeniably unstable and extremely erratic. However, with games like the aforementioned Audiosurf and Portal, you immerse yourself and don't need to/have time to switch between multiple programmes. With FM, the loading times make flicking an inevitability. However, on a Mac, this is an incredibly cumbersome task, almost impossible for two reasons:

a) The game isn't properly made for Macs. Windowed mode doesn't fit properly, and even with the package contents workaround the game slows right down for a reason I can't fathom, and the ME becomes extremely jumpy.

b) Because of the processing power and RAM that Steam/FM eat up, the Mac can't even perform a simple task like scroll between programs using cmd + tab when in full-screen mode (how I like to play the game). Well, it can if the game isn't loading anything at that particular moment, but it will auto-revert back to windowed mode etc etc. All very cumbersome.

My Macbook Pro simply can't handle Steam and FM running at the same time, which is of course a requirement for the game. It's not inferior technology, I bought the Mac less than 3 months ago and it has a decent processor (albeit not a super one), but my 'Free Memory' app shows that Steam is a massive resource-eater, by far the biggest of any application or program on the system. Right now, with Steam and FM closed, my Mac has 2GB of free memory, despite having Chrome, Mail, and iTunes open. That's half of the total memory. Having iTunes and FM open simultaneously is a distant (Windows) dream thanks to Steam's resource-eating, but even when the only applications I have running are FM and Steam, my free memory goes right down to about 300MB, and during a match has gone to as low as 23MB - dangerously low as anyone who has an iota of knowledge about computers will know.

The Mac's system requirements easily match the requirements for FM10 + FM11, I can't check 12 because I bought the game as a download. I don't imagine they'd be too much different though. Either the system requirements are wrong, or you haven't taken into account just how much of a resource-eater Steam is.

I'm not a hater of Steam, but it certainly does not go well with Football Manager. Please SI, please, do not force activation through Steam again. And if you do, please make it so that it is just literally an activation check and we don't require both programs to be open at the same time, because that is what is killing the game for me really. And it's a shame, because it's a great game.

Just wondering - do you have any of the previous FMs installed on your Mac? If so, do they work better without Steam in the background?

[alucasa]

ROLF, piracy is not thief. lol

Man... This world is starting to get ****ed up. They are getting so used to pirating(stealing) that they are accepting it as a normal mean to "acquire" games.

[Sheffield Sunday]

Just a quick comment to the Mac user above. Putting Steam in off-line mode has made a significant improvement to my FM12 game, and my PC is not exactly a slouch either. i7-sandy bridge laptop, 8GB RAM

[Robsy1990]

Just wondering - do you have any of the previous FMs installed on your Mac? If so, do they work better without Steam in the background?

Yeah I have both FM10 and FM11 installed. Both of which (especially FM10) perform far, far better than they ever did on my Windows PC. They're both installed via disc, and require disc to play them (ie no need for Internet connection). So I'm pretty sure my troubles aren't related to my hardware, it is mainly a Steam/resource issue.

I can understand the reasons for SI using Steam though. I just wish you could do an activation check and then never have to have Steam open again while playing the game - as I said before, that's the killer.

Edit > yes, I forgot to mention that when I switched to offline mode it did free up a little more memory - emphasis on the word little - but the hardware is still struggling to run it (especially in Windowed mode for some reason).

[jase19]

It's not a lost sale for the reasons above this quote.

Is it a crime? Yes. Is it theft? No. Theft implies an accounting financial loss

piracy is not a loss of a sale? so you downloaded it, but you don't want it? it's just gonna sit there on your hard drive and never be used? yeah, maybe you wouldn't want it if you couldn't get it free. but maybe you would have bought it eventually if you couldn't play it for free for long enough, too. so i really don't buy that "not a loss of a sale" crap.

[Kazza]

Just a quick comment to the Mac user above. Putting Steam in off-line mode has made a significant improvement to my FM12 game, and my PC is not exactly a slouch either. i7-sandy bridge laptop, 8GB RAM

Same specs as me - will test putting Steam in offline mode. Why has it made such a difference?

[Keyzer Soze]

Theres another area where i think STEAM will help reduce the piracy in FM. Since all the patch will be Steam exclusive, i dont see a ilegal copy of the game be uptodate. So, any user that wants to play with the game fully patched must have steam and the original game!

As for me, i never "worked" with steam before, but so far:

- Install the game without any problems

- Activation went well

- 2 patches installed without problems

- Download Editor and the Resource Archiver without problems

Of course, if i had problems with any of the item above, i would probably be a bit angry, but as always we've got the folks from SI and SEGA to help.

In conclusion, steam is a great adiction to FM, and i hope that it's here to stay.

[Visitor13]

Yeah I have both FM10 and FM11 installed. Both of which (especially FM10) perform far, far better than they ever did on my Windows PC. They're both installed via disc, and require disc to play them (ie no need for Internet connection). So I'm pretty sure my troubles aren't related to my hardware, it is mainly a Steam/resource issue.

I can understand the reasons for SI using Steam though. I just wish you could do an activation check and then never have to have Steam open again while playing the game - as I said before, that's the killer.

Ok, thanks. I'm planning to get a Mac soon, so I'm anxious how FM12 and the previous two will work on it.

[Sheffield Sunday]

Kazza - really not sure - I played FM11 through Steam online and didn't notice it, but FM12 in offline mode is noticeably faster than in online mode, during news and non-viewable game processing (if that makes sense).

[Donki]

By definition piracy is not theft it is more plagiarism, which is still illegal and still a bit scummy IMO. Everything that can be done to reduce it should be done no matter who moans about it, I dont really see the argument here.

[Shawn2166]

so from reading this piracy excists so to try to stop it is pointless just let it happen cause maybe they might buy the game some day. Why would i ever buy the game if it was easy to pirate it? i havn't paid a dime for music because i can just download it for free, same with ebooks. why pay for it when a pirated copy is the excate same game but free?

Studies show people are willing to pay for something yet i don't know of a single person who would go out and buy something if they could get the excate same product for free

I don't understand the problems with steam, sure it collects info but so does allot of other things and i bet those who complain use those services, how many who hate steam use facebook for example?

I'm going to go pirate some music now and if i ever get sued i'll tell them i was planning on buying it at a later date i'm sure they will drop the lawsuit then

[alucasa]

I have about 90ish games with Steam and have been using it for ... I don't even recall.

Currently *bought* and downloading Stronghold 3 at the moment. No need to wait for a shipment and no need to pay for shipping.

I do understand that there are people who only play FM and are perhaps out of touch with how the gaming industry is flowing nowadays, but they've better accept the changes. They are just paining themselves.

[Donki]

Oh and also why are SOME people on here not looking at the bigger picture in piracy, criminal organisiations make huge ammounts of money selling pirated material. This isn't just some spotty teenager downloading a game its done on a huge scale and in alot of occassions these organisations have links to other nasty "bussiness" opperations such as prostitution, drugs and people trafficing.

[jase19]

should do an official poll to see how steam is going over with FMers. not just for forum goers, but like somehow make the poll pop up when you load up fm or steam for fm.

[Kain]

I'll be honest, I was dead against Steam when it was announced too. I think I'd tried Steam in the past and found it to be an awful piece of software, and removed it from my computer as quickly as possible. However, I was willing to give it another chance; not because SI told me to, but because I had a simple choice. I could either buy the game, use Steam and play it, or I could not buy it and play FM10 a bit longer. Pirating the game for me simply wasn't an option, mostly because it hit a bit too close to home.

I work in a place affected heavily by piracy too, in the sales department so I feel it personally on top of that. In the past, record labels have tried various DRM to prevent piracy, and it's failed. Whether it's stopping people buying it legitimately putting the music on their ipod, DRM has simply affected people who buy the CDs negatively way more than it has affected pirates negatively. So we don't use it for anything anymore. We know piracy will always happen, and we know it will cost us money.

We're not going to pretend every pirated copy is a lost sale, because we all know that simply isn't true. However, the fact is that there are a number of people who would buy a copy of the CD if it wasn't available to download illegally. Any efforts to stop piracy are mostly aimed at those people; if we can get those people to buy music again without affecting customers who already buy from us too much, then we'd be stupid not to do it. Imo, Steam works very well for SI in this regard. It's a relatively minor inconvenience for people who would have bought the game anyway, and seems to have stopped FM being pirated early on. I'm sure there'll be a few people who downloaded copies of previous FM games and enjoyed it immensely, to the point where they cannot get a pirated copy early this time and would rather splash out on £25 instead of waiting for the inevitable.

I still wish I didn't have to use Steam to play the game, but so far, it hasn't really affected my computer at all, and hasn't affected how I play the game in any way. Besides having to download it and register the game via Steam at the start, it has done absolutely nothing so far in any way. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not too fussed if they continue with the policy they have this year; I'd just rather they didn't.

That said, if I experience a lost saved game or any other technical issues that others have reported, then I will change my mind on the subject.

[usernamehere]

I will not be buying FM 2012, and the ONLY reason, is because I do not agree with being FORCED to download software I do not like or want.

I am an old school CM/FM customer, back to the days of Amiga, and I think I have only missed one release in this time.

I do not know if it is possible, but if it were, I would be happy to activate/register my product through steam, as long as I can then remove steam completely from my PC!

I understand the need to stop pirates, but forcing honest customers to download additional software is not the way, we (the customer) should not be fighting piracy for you (by downloading software). This should be done by the company.

I also strongly believe that you will NEVER stop the illegal downloading of the game, there will always be someone out there who can bypass any security features you impliment, and if someone wants to download the game illegally, they will probably NEVER pay for it in any case!

Anyway, I will wait in hope that FM 2013 is not linked to steam, cheers!

[Kriss]

But surely technology is more advanced now that with the CD Key/Serial that at a certain time you have to "update" the game at midnight from SI own website to "activate" that serial key to play the game? Ive got Steam (love it) and FM12 (Love it) so there is no problems for me using steam, im just trying to get involved and think of ways to both help SI and its customers with other viable options.

I was talking to those who say you shouldn't have to use the internet to activate the game. Jimmy.

[tlm_77]

I was dubious about STEAM but now I've got fm12 VIA STEAM and have been running it since release, I've had no issues at all.

Thumbs up for Steam from me.

[Donki]

usernamehere

The point is you do need it to play FM12? But you dont need to even open the steam control panel to play the game, just to install it and enter your verification code. You dont have to have it as a running program unless your playing FM12, its not doing you any harm, I really dont get what everyones problem is.

I hope FM13 does use steam and hope more games use it and believe we will, COD possibly the biggest game francise on the PC has used it for there last 3 games.

[Donki]

To be honest I remmeber people moaning when PC games no longer ran from DOS!! Change is inevitible people either you move with it or get left behind.

[jetpack23]

getting a imac in december. if i download steam will it have my fm12 game already there if i log in to my account or do i have to reinstall it. and can i even reinstall the game with the same code on the leaflet

[milnerpoint]

I will not be buying FM 2012, and the ONLY reason, is because I do not agree with being FORCED to download software I do not like or want.

I am an old school CM/FM customer, back to the days of Amiga, and I think I have only missed one release in this time.

Please dont take this as me having a go, but i think the VAST majority with this problem have those statements side by side.

Sorry to say it guys but you either move with technology and the times or you dont play PC games anymore. Its NEVER going back to the days of CD only, and most likely never going back to key activation due to the easiness of cracking it. PC gaming is moving this way, and sadly you guys are massively outnumbered by those who use and have no issue with Steam.

[Walter Duncan]

There is an irony here; I am the example.

I have BROUGHT legally EVERY CM/FM from the 94/95 season to FM2012. Now, because of Pirates, SI are using Steam. And there is a small group of people like me who are suffering because of it.

I have managed just 2.5 hours of play since I got FM2012 because of a Steam issue I am experiencing. SI are being very helpful - but we are still to sort it out.

I was very septical being 'forced' to install Steam so to play FM2012... kinda seeing my own point. Even when I 'fix' the problem, I just worry that it wont be long until it may raise again. I remember last year FM2011 was installed by me via Steam and I ended deleteing FM2011 of PC and going via old styley because of an issue loading Steam.

However, because of Illegal copies, me - a trusted legal user - I can't play.

ho-hum

[Neil Brock]

getting a imac in december. if i download steam will it have my fm12 game already there if i log in to my account or do i have to reinstall it. and can i even reinstall the game with the same code on the leaflet

It'll already be activated to your account but yes you'll need to reinstall it.

[Kriss]

getting a imac in december. if i download steam will it have my fm12 game already there if i log in to my account or do i have to reinstall it. and can i even reinstall the game with the same code on the leaflet

You never need the code again after the first install, you can log onto Steam from any PC in the world and the game will be in your library.

Yes of course you need to d/l it to a new PC because that's where the working files live.

[Walter Duncan]

@ milnerpoint

I have to agree with you. The problem I have is that I am 'embracing it' because I want to continue to play FM. I even upgraded Laptop last year JUST for FM.

I just have issue with, for me, Steam being unreliable - meaning I cannot play FM yet.

<insert gutted face here>

[Neil Dejyothin]

I will not be buying FM 2012, and the ONLY reason, is because I do not agree with being FORCED to download software I do not like or want.

I am an old school CM/FM customer, back to the days of Amiga, and I think I have only missed one release in this time.

I do not know if it is possible, but if it were, I would be happy to activate/register my product through steam, as long as I can then remove steam completely from my PC!

I understand the need to stop pirates, but forcing honest customers to download additional software is not the way, we (the customer) should not be fighting piracy for you (by downloading software). This should be done by the company.

I also strongly believe that you will NEVER stop the illegal downloading of the game, there will always be someone out there who can bypass any security features you impliment, and if someone wants to download the game illegally, they will probably NEVER pay for it in any case!

Anyway, I will wait in hope that FM 2013 is not linked to steam, cheers!

It's a shame for us that you feel that way, but that's your right and we respect that.

[milnerpoint]

@ milnerpoint

I have to agree with you. The problem I have is that I am 'embracing it' because I want to continue to play FM. I even upgraded Laptop last year JUST for FM.

I just have issue with, for me, Steam being unreliable - meaning I cannot play FM yet.

<insert gutted face here>

I can fully sympathies with any issues, much like i would if you had an issue with your graphics card or anything similar. Of course the irony of it all is that people like myself who have no steam issues have installed the game a few times, flawlessly each time, where as skeptical users like yourself have run into problems. As they say, "sods law". I very much hope you get your issues sorted out, i hate to see any old FM player drop the game because of this,

[usernamehere]

It's a shame for us that you feel that way, but that's your right and we respect that.

Thanks for your reply, and on a side note, thanks to you and all the devs who have worked on all the CM/FM games, you have gave me many hundreds of hours entertainment! I will always rate a game that cant be "completed" above any other, simply for the value for money!

Good luck with this years release

[usernamehere]

Please dont take this as me having a go, but i think the VAST majority with this problem have those statements side by side.

Sorry to say it guys but you either move with technology and the times or you dont play PC games anymore. Its NEVER going back to the days of CD only, and most likely never going back to key activation due to the easiness of cracking it. PC gaming is moving this way, and sadly you guys are massively outnumbered by those who use and have no issue with Steam.

No problem, you can say what you like! Im a chilled guy.

It is not the "moving with technology" that bothers me one bit, I have downloaded steam before without thcnical problems, when I bought Napoleon Total War. Even then, It really got my goat!

I just like my PC and whats on it, the way I want it, I like to have the choice, hope you get where Im coming from.

[Jimmy_Jambo]

I was talking to those who say you shouldn't have to use the internet to activate the game. Jimmy.

Sorry, didnt mean to cause offense or sound rude, was just reading through and have seen most of the Steam threads, and most of the time its the same thing of the actual Steam program and activation, the internet part of it is a rare problem, but if you were to activate the game on the set release day by downloading a certain patch from an encrypted/autorised website(s) AND also have Steam as a viable option. You are therefore eliminating pre-release piracy and also keeping some customers happy by given them the option of either Steam or a downloadable patch upon release.

Basically having the same procedure but with and without Steam

Again, i know it wont be as cut and dry as i make out, if its understandable that is

[Walter Duncan]

@ milnerpoint

It's a good job I can play FM11 as a backup...'while I wait'

[x42bn6]

Theft does not require a financial loss, if I remove a family photograph from your house have I committed theft in the eyes of the law despite the fact that the photograph has no financial value?

Yes, because I could have sold that photograph.

Piracy is a modern form of theft & any argument to the contrary is merely a play on words.

That's not how it is defined in the dictionary.

The T-shirt still took time, money and effort to produce. So does Football Manager. Pirating the game is taking something that people have put effort into and giving nothing back in return. So does stealing a T-Shirt.

There are differences as well as those similarities yes, as you mention, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's illegal and morally wrong.

There are enough similarities though that I feel using the word "stolen" is justified. Feel free to disagree on the semantics if you like, but that's not really the point of this is it

It is important as "theft" has specific laws to deal with it, and piracy does too, but under different terms ("copyright infringement"). Therefore they must be different. It's easy to bundle theft and piracy into one to raise an appeal to emotion but that is dishonest.

The law distinguishes the two cases because they are fundamentally different. You cannot really "pirate" a shirt because making a billion shirts is expensive, while making a billion copies of a DVD in digital format is essentially free. As a result, one pirated copy of a DVD is not the same as one stolen t-shirt.

x42bn6 you seem so consumed with a hatred of Steam that you're losing yourself in the argument. Rather than arguing for the rights on the consumer, you're now arguing for the rights of the pirate.

Not at all. I've never said pirates are correct. All I am saying is that in a lot of ways, fighting piracy by reducing its rate is not necessarily the way to go about doing things.

I've always argued for the rights of the consumer - to have choice, and not be dictated on what is best for

Speaking as a consumer, why should I have to pay £20 to fund this game and future devlopment of the game (as well as a profit margin admittedly), whilst a pirate pays no contribution into the pot.

I'm not saying it's right for pirates to not contribute.

As for why you should pay when the pirates don't - why do you buy when the pirated copy is available? It's simple - the game is at a price point that is comfortable for you. It just so happens that factoring in everything, it's not the same case for a pirate.

There is in theory no reason for you to buy, except for the fact that it is against the law and is immoral. But that pretty much answers your question anyway.

It isn't just SI who are losing out on piracy, it's the consumer picking up the tab too.

Without piracy, prices would go up anyway, as they would no longer be competing against "free". Look at CDs and the arrival of P2P, for example. P2P drove music prices down to levels where the music industry is reluctantly accepting. It's simple - it's expensive to make software, but easy and cheap to distribute digital copies of it. Therefore, in theory, the price of software should actually be close to "free" as long as it is any good.

So you aren't really picking up the tab for piracy... You're just paying the market price, as without piracy, things could be even more expensive.

If studies show that people are willing to pay for this game why is this still piracy?

People are willing to pay for a certain price. It doesn't mean that they will pay if given the option not to. Human beings are rational and if I can get something for cheaper (possibly free) for the same amount of effort and risk, then I will go for the cheaper one - that's fact. However, this is not an option because we feel empathy towards developers and acknowledge their work, and the law is not on the pirates' side - i.e. it's cheaper, but

So if you are just going to test the game or, show it to your friends you pay 0, because you are not really playing it, but if you are going to play it you should pay for it.

Okay this logic fault is that it requires piracy to be okay, and it's not

Pirates don't necessarily apply this logic. Some will, some won't.

If someone pirates the game and then buys it, the publisher gets the money - which is what matters.

piracy is not a loss of a sale? so you downloaded it, but you don't want it? it's just gonna sit there on your hard drive and never be used? yeah, maybe you wouldn't want it if you couldn't get it free. but maybe you would have bought it eventually if you couldn't play it for free for long enough, too. so i really don't buy that "not a loss of a sale" crap.

In order for something to be a lost sale, it must be the case that "without piracy, the user would have bought the software". We know this isn't the case. If the user were aware of the game but piracy didn't exist, would they rush into the nearest shop to purchase the game? They would, but only if the game was at a comfortable price.

Quick analogy - although piracy is not theft, let's assume it is for a moment. If someone left their keys in their expensive sports car and you knew that there was absolutely no way you would be caught if you stole the car, does it mean that you would have bought the same car from a car dealer if the car couldn't be stolen? No! You might not be able to afford it.

Therefore it cannot be a lost sale, as there is no guarantee of revenue should piracy not have existed. That pirate could easily have walked away.

Is it lost revenue? Debateable, due to word-of-mouth and due to the fact that pirates might actually buy the software later anyway. Studies do show that pirates do buy more.

[Donki]

@ x42bn6

Ok I agree that piracy is not theft by definition but it is plagorism, would you agree?

Also alot of people pirate to make profit, and alot of it, you simply cant put all piracy down to people in their homes, is some piracy ok and some isn't?

[Neil Brock]

x42bn6, your post is absolutely full of assumptions. As I said earlier -

Whether piracy is theft is a bit of a moot point. Piracy is Piracy. It's illegal and it's unfair on legitimate customers. Would a pirate buy the game if they had no other choice? In some cases yes, in some no. Piracy does need to be stamped out either way.

[asdpoo]

If the problem was that the game was leaking before release day, you could have easily made your own activation, encrypting the exe and making the key available on release day. The key being fetched automatically online or entered manually for offline activation. Add on top of that cdkey, disc checks and what-not. Nobody would have complained about that. But now we are stuck with Steam forever.

[PJHoutman88]

Quick analogy - although piracy is not theft, let's assume it is for a moment. If someone left their keys in their expensive sports car and you knew that there was absolutely no way you would be caught if you stole the car, does it mean that you would have bought the same car from a car dealer if the car couldn't be stolen? No! You might not be able to afford it.

I'll just reply to this:

If you seriously think that would be in anyway acceptable, you have serious mental issues. You might want to ask your local psychiatrist if you're a sociopath. If you can't afford something, don't buy it. Taking something which is being sold by it's producer for free is not acceptable, no matter what reason you have (I might buy it! My friends might! They are not giving me a fair price!) for doing so. If you want to have a product, you buy it. People like you are the reason the world is currently in a state of financial crisis - you want all the benefits but are not disposed towards paying for them.

[x42bn6]

@ x42bn6

Ok I agree that piracy is not theft by definition but it is plagorism, would you agree?

No. Plagiarism has the additional issue that you present that work as your own.

Also alot of people pirate to make profit, and alot of it, you simply cant put all piracy down to people in their homes, is some piracy ok and some isn't?

Some go the extreme view and assume there's an optimal level of piracy.

I simply state that piracy is a by-product of good software, and that if you make your software awesome enough, pirates will jump ship to become legitimate customers. That piracy rate might keep increasing is meaningless - I'd rather spend more money making my software awesome than fighting pirates and having customers suffering collateral damage.

In other words, improving your software indirectly fights piracy.

Piracy is just an opportunity to get new customers.

x42bn6, your post is absolutely full of assumptions. As I said earlier -

Whether piracy is theft is a bit of a moot point. Piracy is Piracy. It's illegal and it's unfair on legitimate customers. Would a pirate buy the game if they had no other choice? In some cases yes, in some no. Piracy does need to be stamped out either way.

You can't stamp out piracy.

The better your product, the more it will get pirated.

I'd argue any money you spend fighting piracy is better-served developing your code. Your piracy rate might increase, but like I have said, it is like the proportion of developers with ginger hair.

Let me ask you this, Neil - how would you quantify how much you have lost through piracy?

[Joga]

Pirates don't necessarily apply this logic. Some will, some won't.

If someone pirates the game and then buys it, the publisher gets the money - which is what matters.

Yes, but you have betas and demos that gives you an possibility to test the game. So i don't really see an another reason for piracy than just downloading the game without wanting to pay for it.

[x42bn6]

I'll just reply to this:

If you seriously think that would be in anyway acceptable, you have serious mental issues. You might want to ask your local psychiatrist if you're a sociopath. If you can't afford something, don't buy it. Taking something which is being sold by it's producer for free is not acceptable, no matter what reason you have (I might buy it! My friends might! They are not giving me a fair price!) for doing so. If you want to have a product, you buy it. People like you are the reason the world is currently in a state of financial crisis - you want all the benefits but are not disposed towards paying for them.

Let's keep personal insults out, thanks.

I'm not saying that's right. I said that it is nonsense to assume that if "free" disappeared, everyone would flock to buying things. I'm saying that if "free" disappeared, only some would buy it, whilst others would walk away.

You are a sensible person who believes in buying products - the fact is, however, that not everyone is (which is why piracy is rampant). You can't deal in ideals - you have to deal with reality. And the reality is that piracy is going absolutely nowhere.

[x42bn6]

Yes, but you have betas and demos that gives you an possibility to test the game. So i don't really see an another reason for piracy than just downloading the game without wanting to pay for it.

Because a beta is worse than the full copy (it's a beta after all) and a demo is restricted and not the final product.

[Joga]

And about that how much is lost money matter i remember reading an Miles Jacobs interview on Eurogamer:

Eurogamer: Sega said that if a quarter of all people that pirated Football Manager bought the game, sales would double. Does that work out that for every four people pirating FM, there is an FM sale? That's alarming.

Miles Jacobson: It is. That figure is just from what we've been able to track, and the reality is that it's higher than that.

[Neil Brock]

You can't stamp out piracy.

Again assumptions! The game has gotten 9/10 reviews and better near enough across the board, this discussion is going nowhere fast pretty much. The fact we've seen people on well known pirating sites give up and say "screw this I'm buying the game" is a testament that there ARE users out there who will buy the game given no choice to get it for free.

[Joga]

Because a beta is worse than the full copy (it's a beta after all) and a demo is restricted and not the final product.

Demo is an part of the final product and gives you and example what the hole game is. I am pretty sure that everyone can make an assumption of the demo what the final product will be and do you want to play the full version. I think that betas give you a fair look what the final product will be. ex. BF3 Beta was buggy as hell, but since i know it was beta and full game doesn't have them i'll buy it because i like the overall of the game.

[x42bn6]

And about that how much is lost money matter i remember reading an Miles Jacobs interview on Eurogamer:

Eurogamer: Sega said that if a quarter of all people that pirated Football Manager bought the game, sales would double. Does that work out that for every four people pirating FM, there is an FM sale? That's alarming.

Miles Jacobson: It is. That figure is just from what we've been able to track, and the reality is that it's higher than that.

Yes, and how can you derive the loss?

The only way is to go back in time and somehow kill piracy, then see how many sales SI would have had without piracy. Then subtract the two figures.

Otherwise, you are estimating assuming that everyone who pirates would have bought the software, which falls into the same trap as "not a lost sale". Also, since piracy spreads word-of-mouth and those who pirate may also buy software, you might find that some of your sales are actually down to piracy, directly or indirectly.

Turkey is an example - SI have a high piracy rate there. One day, if Turkey's economy booms and everyone in Turkey can afford the software, they would buy it and sales would go up. However, they would never have had that happen if piracy didn't exist, as piracy didn't give them an inroad into Turkey in the first place. If you cut out piracy, it is debateable whether a future Turkey would have as many sales compared with a Turkey rampant with piracy.

[PJHoutman88]

If free disappeared, and those who would pirate the game walk away, (assuming none of them actually go on to buy the game) your sales remain unaffected. You have shifted the same amount of copies. So what's the harm in trying?

[Neil Brock]

No offence x42bn6 but you've had your say, much like you did with a very large number of posts in the other thread originally to do with Steam and activation. I think it's only fair if you allow other users to have their say as well and leave this thread for a bit.

[x42bn6]

Again assumptions! The game has gotten 9/10 reviews and better near enough across the board, this discussion is going nowhere fast pretty much. The fact we've seen people on well known pirating sites give up and say "screw this I'm buying the game" is a testament that there ARE users out there who will buy the game given no choice to get it for free.

As long as the Internet is around, piracy will always exist. It's not an assumption. You can only control piracy as long as you somehow control everyone's PC and their network connections.

If the game were cracked tomorrow, the game would be pirated. The fact that some users who can't wait for a crack doesn't mean anything when it comes to whether piracy can be stamped out or not. Once the game is cracked, and it will inevitably be, the game will be pirated.

And, of course, some users will simply walk away and play (possibly pirate, of course) something else.

[x42bn6]

If free disappeared, and those who would pirate the game walk away, (assuming none of them actually go on to buy the game) your sales remain unaffected. You have shifted the same amount of copies. So what's the harm in trying?

Because some customers suffer collateral damage (look at all the "I have Steam problems!" threads). In addition, there will be a loss of goodwill that will hurt SI in the long run, due to the lack of choice and the fact that stronger DRM has been imposed than before.