Constructive Criticism (Of Steam)

[milnerpoint]

I do not pretend to understand how technical things work, but...

Would it not of been possible to require steam to activate your game, then be able to remove steam to play it? (sorry if its been answered already).

No because steam needs to authenticate the game every time you start it up, think of Steam replacing the CD in your drive that had to be there to play the game years ago. If the CD was not in the drive you could not load up FM, steam works in a similar way.

[usernamehere]

Thanks for your answers, that explains that, in an easy way for a numnut to understand!

[Sjg123]

I hope you were kidding when you said you were a law student, because the statement that we are not buying the game in legal terms is hard to grasp - I wouldn't want you as my lawyer, that is for sure . You don't consider that if you can't get the Steam to work so you can play the game is not a legitimate legal reason to complain about Steam, even though you have paid to play the game? Please explain...

You are not buying the game (as in the actual code with which the game is built) but a liscense to use the program. You could consider it an everlasting bus ticket. It would allow you to ride the bus whenever you want, but it would not give you the right to change the bus, nor demand that the bus arrives or departs at different times or in different places.

If you can't get Steam to work, that could only be basis for a legal challange if your system fulfills all requirements and you have done nothing to break the terms of the ToS/EULA agreements. I can't really think of any reasons why you would have problems getting Steam to work aside from

a) having your computer break down, which really is no one elses fault

b) getting banned from Steam (although last time I checked, steam bans were game specific, so getting banned from one game did not affect your ability to play other games you own on the same account).

Just because you can't grasp what I am saying, it does not make me wrong.

[milnerpoint]

If you can't get Steam to work, that could only be basis for a legal challange if your system fulfills all requirements and you have done nothing to break the terms of the ToS/EULA agreements.

But Steam is part of the requirements, and having it working is essential to playing FM, could you really go down that route?

[Guest]

But Steam is part of the requirements, and having it working is essential to playing FM, could you really go down that route?

If Steam blocked you but you had done nothing against the FM EULA then (imo) there is enough legal wiggle to make a case for Sega to provide you access to the license you purchased, it could also be argued the other way which is why lawyers make heaps of money.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

EULAs and English law (with reference to a Scottish case) if you can be bothered;

http://www.lawiki.org/lawwiki/Shrink-wrapped_licence_agreements:_the_UK_legal_position

[Lankylars]

Based upon my rough reading of this thread, I have concluded that posters here break down into four main groups.

1) Steam haters who will use any argument to complain about Steam usage. Some have been rumored to also hate ironing, old locomotives, and nuclear power because they too require Steam

2) Steam favorers (like myself) who also enjoy Steamed clams and other fruits of the sea

3) A possible group of pirate supporters who are angry because they used their booty to buy FM rather than a smarter shoulder parrot

4) A very small group of people who realize Steam's many uses in life but got burned once and now prefer cooler water

[Sjg123]

We have been through this already, software piracy is not theft and I'll tell you why. To steal means that the original is lost, software piracy means that there will be more of it - so, again, in the eyes of the law they will never be the same. As long as the law doesn't recognise it as theft none of us can either, if we do then it will merely be an oppinion...

Whether piracy is theft or not is really a semantic and not a practical discussion, given the fact that it infringes on copyright anyway, which IS illegal. What would you call someone who sneaks into a concert/theme park/on the bus/train/where ever else with admission costs?

There's nothing wrong with protecting your rights and property, be it physical or intellectual, with legal means such as Steam.

What do you mean by no to my answer? If you are a law student then you should know that Consumer Protection laws stands above all the other laws, other laws within that area has to be in accordance with the CPL otherwise they cannot exist. If you do any research I am sure you will see that it is discussed as a very grey area, especially in the area of the First Sales Doctrine where it is described as being in a state of legal confusion...

By "no" I mean to indicate disagreement, in case that was unclear. Evidently, English is not my first language, nor am I a resident of the UK, so my familiarity with the finer aspects of anglo-american court systems leaves a lot to be desired. Still, even though the principle of lex specialis applies to Consumer Protection laws, that only applies if the specific case falls within the realm of said laws. It's completely uncontroversial for intellectual property right holders to retain that ownership while selling liscenses to use whatever it is they own. This applies to games, movies, tv shows, any other kind of software that isn't freeware or open source.

Technically, this will fall under contract law. CP laws will come into play in the instances where there has been misleading marketing, a company refuses to correct an error or fault with the product and blames the consumer, the agreement terms are unreasonable due to the consumer being such a weak party to the agreement.

Whichever way you want to twist it, the statement around which this part of the debate revolves is not even close to a grey area. "All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors." is simply stating, in short, that they are not splitting up and selling the intellectual property rights to their games, aka that they will not allow you to buy a game, make copies/changes and sell them on while retaining your 1st copy.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Based upon my rough reading of this thread, I have concluded that posters here break down into four main groups.

1) Steam haters who will use any argument to complain about Steam usage. Some have been rumored to also hate ironing, old locomotives, and nuclear power because they too require Steam

2) Steam favorers (like myself) who also enjoy Steamed clams and other fruits of the sea

3) A possible group of pirate supporters who are angry because they used their booty to buy FM rather than a smarter shoulder parrot

4) A very small group of people who realize Steam's many uses in life but got burned once and now prefer cooler water

5) People with no interest in Steam, but who do not want to install third party software on their computers just to play a game.

6) "I'm Alright Jacks" seemingly unable to leave people, who are having problems, alone.

[Sjg123]

If this was directed at me, then please bring up the points that I have misinformed and we will take a look at them together. It was a twist in words, if we did not buy the game in legal terms then there is not much option other than buying it in illegal terms. That is why the whole area is very grey, legally...

Here is a quote:

"The first-sale doctrine as it relates to computer software is an area of legal confusion. Some software publishers claim in their End User License Agreements (EULA) that their software is licensed, not sold, thus the first-sale doctrine does not apply to their works. Courts have contradicted. Bauer & Cie. v. O'Donnell and Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus are two related Supreme Court cases."

You don't have to take my word for it...

You do realize that the first-sale doctrine simply lets you resell a legal liscense/copy to a 3rd party? It does not challange their ownership of the code/movie/music, but it challanges their attempts to prevent people from selling on used but legally obtained copies of games/movies/music.

In a sense, Steam bypasses this because the game is linked to your steam account. You could still technically sell your steam account and they would be none the wiser for it. While I am sure that the Steam agreements may forbid it, that is an area where you might be able to mount a challange under the first-sale doctrine.

[Kriss]

5)6) "I'm Alright Jacks" seemingly unable to leave people, who are having problems, alone.

I agree, this we can do without, help or butt out seems to be a good slogan:)

[Lankylars]

5) People with no interest in Steam, but who do not want to install third party software on their computers just to play a game.

6) "I'm Alright Jacks" seemingly unable to leave people, who are having problems, alone.

I understand your frustration with (5), having been annoyed myself in the past with other third party solutions (Starforce, anyone?). But for many users, Steam provides added services and value beyond mere copy protection for the company. Additionally, arguments of needing third party software to run the game are being a little facetious, since to run anything on a computer we use mounds of extra software. I need Windows 7, video and sound card drivers, other hardware drivers, Direct X, etc etc etc. Resource-wise (which various for users, I know) right now as I play FM and comment here, Steam is using 12.3Mb of RAM and 0% processor. My virus scanner/firewall suite uses about 80Mbs of RAM at idle, Desktop Window Manager (used by Win 7 to make things pretty) uses 20Mb and 1% processor, browsing the web with Firefox right now is consuming 40 times more RAM that Steam and 10% processor... I ask that anti-Steamers put things in perspective.

As far as (6), sure, some come to pick a fight, but most don't. I made a humorous comment because this thread has started going in circles, and some of the "Alright Jacks" probably comment on these posts because anti-Steam threads by a few users keep popping to the top of the forum and pushing other stuff down. For people who often casually browse the forum (as I do) rather than search for one particular topic, the Steam threads will always be in their view.

[Lazaru5]

I think the biggest problem that the pro-Steam lobby have is that they address each person's issue separately. The anti-Steam lobby see the bigger picture, we can see that not only is Steam not owned by SI or SEGA (making it third party); not only does Steam cause technical problems; not only is Steam a major resource hog on a Mac; not only do people have problems installing the game; not only have people had previous bad experiences (e.g. 2009); not only do people not understand why the need for Steam; not only do people not know what Steam does (that goes for ALL of you, some care about that... some don't ); not only do people not have an Internet connection; not only are people not allowed to install Steam because it's not their computer (e.g. an employer provided laptop); not only are people unhappy at having to buy 2 copies where they'd previously shared the cost and the copy; not only do people not trust Valve/SEGA; not only does Steam take longer to load; not only are people unhappy at the lack of choice of activation; not only are people unhappy at having to have Steam running to play FM12; not only are people unhappy at the lack of information provided; not only is there one single gripe against Steam... there's lots, and lots, and lots...

Steam works great for you? Wonderful! (at what cost...?)

The Anti-Steam lobby aren't "just against change" we all have a genuine and valid reason for not wanting to use Steam, for disagreeing with the decision by the bods at SEGA...

Why shouldn't we voice our concerns? We're customers, just like you... the adage "the customer is always right" only applies when you want that customer's money it seems, otherwise it's "the customer will do xyz or they can whistle". (we need a whistling smiley...) Telling the customer that they're wrong is bad for business, because an unhappy customer is a lost customer. If you want their money you have to agree with them even if they say that the moon is made of cheese - just until you have their dough...

What is clear from the many threads and posts around here, and the number of people that are joining the forum because they either a) have a problem or b) don't want to install Steam or c) are unable to install Steam, is that there are a lot of unhappy customers... and in a lot of cases SI/SEGA haven't even got their dough!

Please, instead of "I've used Steam for a million years on a 486 and never had a problem", try to understand and empathise with those who have concerns or problems because of Steam. Don't name-call because people don't like Steam... realise that there are a lot of genuine reasons to not want or be able to use Steam not just the fear of change...

[Guest]

EULAs and English law (with reference to a Scottish case) if you can be bothered;

http://www.lawiki.org/lawwiki/Shrink-wrapped_licence_agreements:_the_UK_legal_position

Always good to read a breakdown of legal statutes & case law, I really should have pursued that path when I was at college.

[Lankylars]

Lazaru5, I do sympathize for those, like you, who have had actual problems with Steam. And I cannot comment from a Mac standpoint, obviously. But if I were you and Steam truly did eat inordinate amounts of resources on a capable Mac, I'd be frustrated too. And I 100% support your right to complain, because it's what I would do if I had issues. What I have a problem with is the non-core group of people who take issue with things for reasons that are, at least at face value, less than legitimate. After all, half of this thread broke down into a debate about piracy and "is it theft", "is it good for sales", "should we support it", etc etc. Legitimate complaints from users like you come and then, unfortunately, the issue becomes a magnet for people on both sides of the aisle to voice all manner of things.

On the note of you having a right to voice concerns, people who enjoy the Steam system also have a right to voice our support. If it weren't for Steam, I never would have found Football Manager. One day an advert popped up in Steam for FM 08, I downloaded the demo, and haven't looked back since. I also feel that a true and proper debate about consumer choice and product availability would be better suited to a separate thread focused solely on that issue, not one mingled among other things.

One final note, when you mention the number of negative threads. There's an old marketing expression that I feel applies a little here: "please a customer, they'll tell a friend; disappoint a customer, they'll tell 10." So while some of you have serious concerns and/or technical problems, I also dislike those who use hyperbole such as "at least 50% of users hate Steam and everything about it".

I'm all for positive, rational discourse, and the recognition that at the end of the day, we're all hear because we love FM.

[Sjg123]

If Steam blocked you but you had done nothing against the FM EULA then (imo) there is enough legal wiggle to make a case for Sega to provide you access to the license you purchased, it could also be argued the other way which is why lawyers make heaps of money.

Depends on the reason why you're blocked from Steam, but yea. I've only really seen VAC bans in my time as a Steam user, and those only affect the VAC protected servers for the particular game you got banned in. I can't really think of anything that is likely to get you banned aside from attemtped piracy and/or fraud and hacking.

[RBKalle]

I don't think the point of any poster in this thread was to claim piracy isn't illegal...

The "anti-steam brigade" mostly consists in FM lovers who:

a) are having issues with Steam right now

b) had issues with Steam before

c) don't like the Steam-only policy for various reasons

Trying to write them (us) off as "old fashioned, change-hating, informatically challenged whiners" is reductive if not plain insulting...

Because even if that was true (which isn't) their £30 are still good money and I'm quite sure SEGA/SI would still want and need those...

Then I don't see what's wrong with trying to expand the debate a little and discussing about how/IF piracy actually affects sales and whether a strict anti-pirates policy that ends up pissing off some paying customers is a good idea or not.

Surely that doesn't mean "we hate Steam because we love piracy and we want to download the game for free"!

[-Silverfoxx-]

Hey been reading the thread and thought that I need to put my view across.

Piracy is a big issue within the PC gaming market and I can see where Sega and FM Developers are being unfairly treated when there product is out before realease date etc.

Think Neil said earlier in the thread "Piracy is Unfair" a true comment but by taking the action Sega / FM has now they are being Unfair to a section of there customers by saying they have to use a system they do not want to use.

I have no problems with Steam and think it provides an amazing service but Steam still remains quite buggy for some and can really cause issues for people who are not technically savvy.

The route Sega has taken isnt the correct one in my view, if the main reason for usign the steam platform is to Reduce piracy then I think a bit of sharing the problem between customers and Sega may be a better one.

The majority of piracy occurs at a games release when everyone wants the game.

So for me a solution would be to release games like football manager like they release films, So you would release the game and for the first six months of the game would have to have steam installed / required to play as per this games release.

However after six months those who have not enjoyed their experiences with steam or have other issues are able to aquire a patch to allow them to have installed without Steam.

I know this is not perfect for those who do not want to use steam but for me it is a better alternative than forcing all to use steam.

As Neil put "Piracy is unfair" but Sega / FM but they shouldnt make it unfair on a section of customers and should compromise in the future.

[Blaupunkt]

Lazaru5, I do sympathize for those, like you, who have had actual problems with Steam. And I cannot comment from a Mac standpoint, obviously. But if I were you and Steam truly did eat inordinate amounts of resources on a capable Mac, I'd be frustrated too. And I 100% support your right to complain, because it's what I would do if I had issues. What I have a problem with is the non-core group of people who take issue with things for reasons that are, at least at face value, less than legitimate. After all, half of this thread broke down into a debate about piracy and "is it theft", "is it good for sales", "should we support it", etc etc. Legitimate complaints from users like you come and then, unfortunately, the issue becomes a magnet for people on both sides of the aisle to voice all manner of things.

On the note of you having a right to voice concerns, people who enjoy the Steam system also have a right to voice our support. If it weren't for Steam, I never would have found Football Manager. One day an advert popped up in Steam for FM 08, I downloaded the demo, and haven't looked back since. I also feel that a true and proper debate about consumer choice and product availability would be better suited to a separate thread focused solely on that issue, not one mingled among other things.

One final note, when you mention the number of negative threads. There's an old marketing expression that I feel applies a little here: "please a customer, they'll tell a friend; disappoint a customer, they'll tell 10." So while some of you have serious concerns and/or technical problems, I also dislike those who use hyperbole such as "at least 50% of users hate Steam and everything about it".

I'm all for positive, rational discourse, and the recognition that at the end of the day, we're all hear because we love FM.

I could not agree more!

Especially with the first paragraph, and the section i highlighted.

[wild2475]

Hey been reading the thread and thought that I need to put my view across.

Piracy is a big issue within the PC gaming market and I can see where Sega and FM Developers are being unfairly treated when there product is out before realease date etc.

Think Neil said earlier in the thread "Piracy is Unfair" a true comment but by taking the action Sega / FM has now they are being Unfair to a section of there customers by saying they have to use a system they do not want to use.

I have no problems with Steam and think it provides an amazing service but Steam still remains quite buggy for some and can really cause issues for people who are not technically savvy.

The route Sega has taken isnt the correct one in my view, if the main reason for usign the steam platform is to Reduce piracy then I think a bit of sharing the problem between customers and Sega may be a better one.

The majority of piracy occurs at a games release when everyone wants the game.

So for me a solution would be to release games like football manager like they release films, So you would release the game and for the first six months of the game would have to have steam installed / required to play as per this games release.

However after six months those who have not enjoyed their experiences with steam or have other issues are able to aquire a patch to allow them to have installed without Steam.

I know this is not perfect for those who do not want to use steam but for me it is a better alternative than forcing all to use steam.

As Neil put "Piracy is unfair" but Sega / FM but they shouldnt make it unfair on a section of customers and should compromise in the future.

I agree, I would be very happy not buying FM12 for 6 months or so then buying it if Steam can be taken off.

However piracy isn't the only reason that Steam is being used, think of the benefits SI/Sega will have if they get info from Steam regarding what hardware your PC has, what other games you play, how often you play FM, how often you use Steam for other games, etc.

If you are happy to voluntarily give this info to a 3rd party and then SI/Sega to also have this info then great, but some people are tired of their privacy being abused.

This is why no choice but Steam is such an issue.

[Kriss]

I agree, I would be very happy not buying FM12 for 6 months or so then buying it if Steam can be taken off.

However piracy isn't the only reason that Steam is being used, think of the benefits SI/Sega will have if they get info from Steam regarding what hardware your PC has, what other games you play, how often you play FM, how often you use Steam for other games, etc.

If you are happy to voluntarily give this info to a 3rd party and then SI/Sega to also have this info then great, but some people are tired of their privacy being abused.

This is why no choice but Steam is such an issue.

Sorry but this you have wrong, Steam takes NO information unless you actively agree that it can, i.e. it asks your permission.

Before Steam SI did collect this info WITHOUT your consent, so you're actually back to front on that particular subject.

[wild2475]

Sorry but this you have wrong, Steam takes NO information unless you actively agree that it can, i.e. it asks your permission.

Before Steam SI did collect this info WITHOUT your consent, so you're actually back to front on that particular subject.

My understanding is that by signing up to Steam and agreeing to their terms and conditions by creating an account they do take this info and their terms and conditions indicate this as well. If you could get some official confirmation from SI/Sega to confirm categorically that Steam will take NO information unless you agree and you can use Steam and run the game still then that would be good.

With regards to SI taking the info without our consent previously, how exactly did they do this if the game was run via the CD?

[Lord_Seifer]

Based upon my rough reading of this thread, I have concluded that posters here break down into four main groups.

1) Steam haters who will use any argument to complain about Steam usage. Some have been rumored to also hate ironing, old locomotives, and nuclear power because they too require Steam

2) Steam favorers (like myself) who also enjoy Steamed clams and other fruits of the sea

3) A possible group of pirate supporters who are angry because they used their booty to buy FM rather than a smarter shoulder parrot

4) A very small group of people who realize Steam's many uses in life but got burned once and now prefer cooler water

You, sir, win the topic X3

[Kriss]

With regards to SI taking the info without our consent previously, how exactly did they do this if the game was run via the CD?

It wasn't on all issues, from FM09? possibly, I honestly can't remember which version it started with but it was part of the DRM.

[wild2475]

It wasn't on all issues, from FM09? possibly, I honestly can't remember which version it started with but it was part of the DRM.

Yeah I understand FM09 due to the DRM debacle that was created but I can't understand how they would have had any other information available other than that version.

[wild2475]

Sorry but this you have wrong, Steam takes NO information unless you actively agree that it can, i.e. it asks your permission.

Before Steam SI did collect this info WITHOUT your consent, so you're actually back to front on that particular subject.

Might be worth reading the below:

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

Makes it quite clear information will be taken and used and shared in certain circumstances.

[-Silverfoxx-]

Wild,

Yes I agree there is many other benefits for the developers wanting to use steam.

As you mentioned gathering technical information, getting this information directly from your player base is a big time saver when it comes time to sit down and discuss technical requirements for FM13. If they do collect data this way and im not saying they do or dont they would have plently by the time 6 months has passed, also the amount of users who are happy to use steam after 6 months will still give them a broad range of data.

By the time 6 months has passed they will most likely have released all major patches / updates and be well into focusing for the next game.

But for me the biggest benefit to using steam for the developers that hasnt been mentioned in this thread is reducing used game sales.

As the biggest point that has been given by the developers is that they are using steam to reduce piracy then my above point would be a better solution.

However I think it would be better (not perfect) if Sega was able to say to its customers "hey you have to use this for the first six months, after that you can remove if you wish, and if you dont want steam please wait for six months to enjoy our work"

Rather than "You dont want to use steam, well we respect your decision!, Byeeee"

[Kriss]

Might be worth reading the below:

http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

Makes it quite clear information will be taken and used and shared in certain circumstances.

Yeh, they reserve the right to but there's also a piece in the sign up agreement which says they will always ask first, of course typically I can't find it now:D

[smythw]

The steam issue only came to my attention when I tried to install from my DVD. Prior to that I had no knowledge because in all the years I've used Champ Man/ FM I've never had much cause to visit these forums. I suspect there are a good many users in my position who only found out about the steam-only policy when they got their DVD.

However the playerbase is now fully informed, so sales figures for FM2013 and future versions will be interesting.

What will I do? Well I've always purchased a copy of FM out of loyalty to the franchise and I've always found the game to be an improvement over the previous one. Since I've never felt my money has been wasted in the past, I didn't even bother to check what the new features were for this version when I pre-ordered.

I may well purchase future versions of FM, but the feature set is absolutely going to need to justify it....and to give a clue, the improvements in FM2012 wouldn't; I will probably end up purchasing every 2-3 versions. I suspect I will also wait for positive user consensus to form, rather than blindly pre-order and hope for the best. My goodwill has gone.

[wild2475]

Yeh, they reserve the right to but there's also a piece in the sign up agreement which says they will always ask first, of course typically I can't find it now:D

Read the sign up agreement and from what I could see there isn't anything to override the privacy agreement I put a link to in my other post.

It has the link to the privacy agreement in the sign up agreement indicating that this is their policy with regards to your privacy so I would say the privacy agreement is what you are bound by and that does make it clear information will be taken and could be used.

On another point, Steam says you have to agree to be over 13 years old to be able to sign up but the game says suitable for ages 3 and over.

What if someone under 13 buys the game and then can't create a Steam account????

[Kriss]

On another point, Steam says you have to agree to be over 13 years old to be able to sign up but the game says suitable for ages 3 and over.

What if someone under 13 buys the game and then can't create a Steam account????

Good question:) surely they'd have to refund in a case like that, though I'm sure plenty under 13 are playing games through Steam.

[wild2475]

Good question:) surely they'd have to refund in a case like that, though I'm sure plenty under 13 are playing games through Steam.

I'm sure they would but putting age 3+ on the game then forcing people to install Steam and then have to agree to terms and conditions stating you are over 13 via Steam is not on.

I'm sure many under 13's are on Steam but feel that the game case should make this abundantly clear as to me it seems to be very very misleading.

[-Silverfoxx-]

Agree with Kriss that a refund is due but I think that is information in the future Sega will have to print on the box which they wont like

[Kriss]

I'm sure they would but putting age 3+ on the game then forcing people to install Steam and then have to agree to terms and conditions stating you are over 13 via Steam is not on.

I'm sure many under 13's are on Steam but feel that the game case should make this abundantly clear as to me it seems to be very very misleading.

Agree that, all games which require Steam (FM included) should have a bloody great Steam logo front and back, it should be made impossible to buy one and not be aware of the requirement.

I did buy Settlers (Ubisoft) for my grandaughter without realising you had to be online to play:mad:

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I'm sure they would but putting age 3+ on the game then forcing people to install Steam and then have to agree to terms and conditions stating you are over 13 via Steam is not on.

I'm sure many under 13's are on Steam but feel that the game case should make this abundantly clear as to me it seems to be very very misleading.

They need to sort this out. I came across frostyone a couple of days ago asking about needing three copies in one household;

thats fair enough gonna have to just buy the copy for myself and maybe the boys will get a copy each at xmas

From Valve's(Steam) privacy policy, just in case it is relevant to you;

Children Under The Age of 13

Valve will not knowingly collect personally identifiable information from any person age 12 and under. Valve encourages parents to instruct their children to never give out personal information when online. Parents who are concerned about the transfer of personal information from their children may contact us at privacy@valvesoftware.com to obtain a record of any information held by Valve and have it removed at their request.

Valve Privacy Policy; http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html

How hard will it be explaining to your kids if this age mismatch ends up being the reason they can't have FM12?

[Optimistic Dave]

It's not an anticapitalist crusade he's arguing.

The analogy he's looking for is a CD/DVD only era and SI/Sega only distributed the game through e.g. HMV. Now, HMV may or may not be an awesome store, and they may have the best internal distribution line security (preventing 0-day piracy), but I don't think many of you would like being given no choice but to go to HMV to buy the game.

The complaint is not against Steam per se, but being forced to shop at Steam. A potential customer can have all sorts of problems with Steam that are unrelated to the technical awesomeness of Steam; there may have been a poor customer-service contact which have ruined Steam for that customer (have you ever sworn to never set foot in a store because of exceedingly poor service?); he may have already invested heavily into a different online-store (for example, Impulse) and doesn't want to add another one;

The point is, having choice is better than no choice. I can understand users going for Steam, but I also question SI for forcing me to opt for Steam in the first place.

In my analogy: I may not want to shop at HMV for my own personal reasons. If it were available from any other store, it would be fine; just not HMV.

Note: I'm not against Steam as such and may (or may not) buy the game from Steam. Though it will then be the first Steam-installed game; so it is going to be a hurdle for me (because it does add another bit of footprint to my computer).

Carrying over his logic to your HMV example would suggest that if he doesn't want to shop at HMV then it's fine to walk in and steal a copy.

[stevies qpr]

if i bought sonic the hedgehog for the ps3, or downloaded a "snide" copy for a chipped playstation, im pretty sure i wouldnt have to go through the rigmorol i have, buying this game????

[Loversleaper]

You do realize that the first-sale doctrine simply lets you resell a legal liscense/copy to a 3rd party? It does not challange their ownership of the code/movie/music, but it challanges their attempts to prevent people from selling on used but legally obtained copies of games/movies/music.

In a sense, Steam bypasses this because the game is linked to your steam account. You could still technically sell your steam account and they would be none the wiser for it. While I am sure that the Steam agreements may forbid it, that is an area where you might be able to mount a challange under the first-sale doctrine.

I mentioned the first-sale doctrine because this is where I think one of the first points arise. If computer software doesn't apply to this, then we are moving out into a 'grey area'. It has been stated that it doesn't apply to them due to the licensing aspect, for this to work then the contract terms would only be legal if the consumer pressed the 'I accept' option to agree with their terms. But here is where things get tricky, what can be included in these terms? Where do you draw the line and, more importantly, who decides this? If it is up to the software industry then they make up the rules, this can be a problem if the rules are not within reason. What happens if the consumer agrees to the terms but somehow misuses it, will they be breaking a law? Your breaking terms but what exactly does that mean? This get's even trickier when you add 3rd parties to it...

On the FM box you don't see the terms and conditions of Steam, so consumers can be put in the situation where they buy something that they are not fully aware of. The age aspect some of the other users discussed above is just the tip of the iceberg, and when these type of situations happen then who is ultimately resposible - in American terms: who should be sued in this situation? ...

There is a lot of small print, which not everyone will thoroughly understand. Like the lady who bought a winnebago, read the manual where when you hit the 'auto-pilot' you could just sit back and basically let the vehicle drive by itself. She got onto the freeway, applied the auto pilot - and went into the back to make herself a cup of coffee...

When the terms hit the area on prevention it's just opened another can of worms, hence the state of confusion...

[SCIAG]

Carrying over his logic to your HMV example would suggest that if he doesn't want to shop at HMV then it's fine to walk in and steal a copy.

That isn't carrying over his analogy at all, because he doesn't advocate pirating the game, or hacking into Steam's servers and stealing a key. He just said that it seems odd that people are in favour of the game ONLY being availible on Steam (or at HMV) for reasons other than "it will keep SI afloat", because some people are always going to want to use another method (or shop), and just because it happens to be the method (or shop) you like doesn't mean everyone should have to use it.

[Almondo]

Can I just state that although the game has a Age rating of 3 this rating is not given to the game by either Sega or SI. It comes from PEGI and as such even though steam has the age rating of being 13 to use neither company is actually misleading anyone. PEGI gives out the rating and SEGA/SI print the covers etc. I do think it could be handled better however. Maybe like Loversleaper has said have the fact that the game is a Steamworks game on the front of the box in type big enough to read. I know it's on the back above the specifications of the game but maybe just put it on the front as well.

SI isn't the only developer that has gone down the line of Steam only for it's PC releases as there are several threads on the official forums of Bethesda games that are full of posts from people who won't be buying the next Elder Scrolls game - Skyrim because it is a Steam only game.

Don't get me wrong I like Steam but I would like to have at least some kind of choice about how I install my game especially when I've spent around £30 on it and as such I can understand why those who don't want to use steam are angry about the use of a program I originally thought was the worst piece of software that I'd ever installed on my computer but now actually like.

[thesandman]

Wild,

Yes I agree there is many other benefits for the developers wanting to use steam.

But for me the biggest benefit to using steam for the developers that hasnt been mentioned in this thread is reducing used game sales.

As the biggest point that has been given by the developers is that they are using steam to reduce piracy then my above point would be a better solution.

However I think it would be better (not perfect) if Sega was able to say to its customers "hey you have to use this for the first six months, after that you can remove if you wish, and if you dont want steam please wait for six months to enjoy our work"

Rather than "You dont want to use steam, well we respect your decision!, Byeeee"

I mentioned that briefly in my long spiel before, and I've seen it mentioned a few times on this board.

That to me is the kicker. That's a major reason IMO SI are pursuing this. It makes sense to me. The second hand market is a real bug bear to the games industry, I've read a lot of articles about it (for console and PC games) from both the games creators POV and the second hand games dealers POV. The implementation of Steam as you say is a nice little side step around the whole thing.

[Sherdil]

I mentioned that briefly in my long spiel before, and I've seen it mentioned a few times on this board.

That to me is the kicker. That's a major reason IMO SI are pursuing this. It makes sense to me. The second hand market is a real bug bear to the games industry, I've read a lot of articles about it (for console and PC games) from both the games creators POV and the second hand games dealers POV. The implementation of Steam as you say is a nice little side step around the whole thing.

That's a pretty interesting point! In the end of the day though, bigger sales = bigger developing budget = bigger better game.

When SI eventually counts the gains from the new sales, customer expectations will grow ten-fold due to the bigger budget then even more pressure will be on them (SI). If they don't deliver... everything will back fire.

With greater risk comes chance for a greater reward!

[smgran]

Of course the object of businesses is to make money. The game developers may also be football fans but this is their livelihood, they're not producing this game to give money to the poor. And that's cool. As said, business is in business to make money.

But clearly the steam decision was a mistake. Perhaps a more disastrous business decision that happen recently here in the US was Netflix. It cost them so much money that they had to backtrack and have so damaged their brand that it may take a year or more to fix. And during that time they are losing lots of money, instead of making more.

Will Sega lose money on this decision? I'd hazard a guess to say probably. That's just a guess, but I sincerely doubt any of the people who pirate a game are going to run out and buy it. Especially when the prior version is still available to them.

I've bought the game since the '09 version and won't be buying 12. FM11 is fine by me so I'll just wait till Sega produce a game without steam (or just continue to use the editor in FM11 to update the game myself).

I also question the logic of the anti-piracy decision to go with steam only. Throughout this thread I keep reading that they decided on steam to combat "pre-release" piracy. Does that mean you still expect pirates after the release? So you're punishing people like me (loyal buyers) to stop pirates at launch, but then you're expecting the same pirates to steal your game later on?

Again, this decision to go steam only is a mistake and will probably not benefit sales as much as hurt them.

[hugo_rune]

And here I thought Sports Interactive were paid by SEGA to run a charity. They want customers to pay for the game? The outrage! The horror! This will cost them in the future!

OK, sorry for the sarcasm, but I couldn't resist it.

The overwhelming question raised is this one: Should SEGA and Sports Interactive really care about the 'goodwill' of people who don't buy their game, have never bought the game, never will, and think it's their right to expect other people, such as SI, to work to provide them entertainment without receiving any recompense? 'Hell no! We don't owe these people anything, if they want to play Football Manager, maybe it's time they paid for it like our real customers' - that was the answer of SEGA and SI. So what about these people who thought it was their right to play any game produced for free, paid for by others? They're unhappy. But this is a good thing! Some of them (shock horror) are even considering buying a game and not freeloading, maybe for the first time in their lives. All I can say is this: Pirates - come over to the dark side! If you think a game is great and want to play it: Buy it! If you think a game is crap and isn't worth paying for: Pass over it! If you're not sure: Try the demo. The choice is wonderful!

[Dr Eskenen Un Un]

Before this, just double click at the desktop icon and you are ready to play

But now :

Open PC, double click at FM2012 icon > "Could not connect to steam network" > or "steam is updating" box appear > you get bored and click cancel, you try to open again > "steam is already running"

Do I need to restart my PC 2-3 times everytime I want to play this game ?

p/s : I alraedy solve "the game is currently unavailable" ****

p/s : I cannot play my game right now, that's why I open this thread

[Tommy_Styles]

So do the millions of people who download pirated versions, just consider yourself a sacrifice for the greater good

[mrness23]

its not making me play either. havent played since wednesday.

i knew i shouldnt have bought the game

[h@@kon]

Before this, just double click at the desktop icon and you are ready to play

But now :

Open PC,

:-) Just try to click the icon next time. you don't have to open your pc just because you use steam.

[bigturnip]

So do the millions of people who download pirated versions, just consider yourself a sacrifice for the greater good

The people with pirated versions don't have to worry about the annoyances of Steam, that's what I don't get about the whole Steam thing, it doesn't stop the pirates, it just annoys genuine users. FM12 took just 3 days for the pirates to crack, so SI managed to thwart the pirates for a whole 3 days, but they will go on thwarting genuine users.

[Irchard]

"Could not connect to steam network"

Is this a common thing? I currently live in a third-world country with a corresponding third-world internet connection and I have had absolutely no issues with Steam at all. I'm surprised people are getting upset about it.