Constructive Criticism (Of Steam)

[ManUTactician247]

That certainly makes it easier for me, but what about patches?

You can go online, download the patch which shouldn't take long and then go back into offline mode again.

[jetpack23]

i know that a lot of people are saying steam take up loads of space on macs and that it runs slow is that for older macs or most as im thinking of getting a new one soon put am now put of and am thinking maybe a good laptop instead. am real confused now

[Blaupunkt]

If this was directed at me, then please bring up the points that I have misinformed and we will take a look at them together. It was a twist in words, if we did not buy the game in legal terms then there is not much option other than buying it in illegal terms. That is why the whole area is very grey, legally...

Here is a quote:

"The first-sale doctrine as it relates to computer software is an area of legal confusion. Some software publishers claim in their End User License Agreements (EULA) that their software is licensed, not sold, thus the first-sale doctrine does not apply to their works. Courts have contradicted. Bauer & Cie. v. O'Donnell and Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus are two related Supreme Court cases."

You don't have to take my word for it...

no not directly at you, but everyone who seems to think piracy is not theft, you own the software you are using, when in fact you have just brought the licence to use it, steam is the worst piece of software known to man etc etc.

as for your "grey area" why should i go through it with you, i have seen, read and been involved with very similar debates over the years and i have come to the conclusion that no matter what evidence is shown, how easy you make it for people to understand they will simply refuse to believe what it put in front of them and keep using the "its a (very)grey area" and all to do with interpretation.

seeing as you like a quote

The hallmark of proprietary software licenses is that the software publisher grants the use of one or more copies of software under the end-user license agreement (EULA), but ownership of those copies remains with the software publisher (hence use of the term "proprietary"). This feature of proprietary software licenses means that certain rights regarding the software are reserved by the software publisher. Therefore, it is typical of EULAs to include terms which define the uses of the software, such as the number of installations allowed or the terms of distribution.

The most significant effect of this form of licensing is that, if ownership of the software remains with the software publisher, then the end-user must accept the software license. In other words, without acceptance of the license, the end-user may not use the software at all. One example of such a proprietary software license is the license for Microsoft Windows. As is usually the case with proprietary software licenses, this license contains an extensive list of activities which are restricted, such as: reverse engineering, simultaneous use of the software by multiple users, and publication of benchmarks or performance tests.

[Loversleaper]

seeing as you like a quote

Of course, anyone can see that it is basically saying that you are not allowed to pirate the game, which we all agreed on was illegal...

P.S. Regarding the theft part read post #195...

[Blaupunkt]

Of course, anyone can see that it is basically saying that you are not allowed to pirate the game, which we all agreed on was illegal...

i did a little research, you do realise that the first sales doctrine you quoted from >wiki< was set in the USA and there for might not be the same as or relevant in the UK, also that was taken form a case in 1908, things might have been changed since then.

so am i right in thinking that while you agree that it is illegal to pirate software, you do not agree that pirating software is actually theft ? having had a quick re read through a few of your posts..

[edwingray]

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe the point has already been raised.

I haven't bought the game this year, because of the Steam issue. I have no problem with SI / SEGA choosing a system that tries to stop pre-release piracy. What I do object to is that I would have to install the Steam client.

Why is it not possible to have a system where the boxed game is delivered with a code which has to be entered into a website (could be Steam for all I care - have no problem creating an account, just don't want the client on my computer), the website generates the new activation key, which is entered into the computer. It would be quite simple to make sure the (Steam) website doesn't generate the activation keys until after the official release date.

[SCIAG]

You can go online, download the patch which shouldn't take long and then go back into offline mode again.

That doesn't reallly help him, as he can't afford the download.

[Guest]

Haven't read the whole thread, so maybe the point has already been raised.

I haven't bought the game this year, because of the Steam issue. I have no problem with SI / SEGA choosing a system that tries to stop pre-release piracy. What I do object to is that I would have to install the Steam client.

Why is it not possible to have a system where the boxed game is delivered with a code which has to be entered into a website (could be Steam for all I care - have no problem creating an account, just don't want the client on my computer), the website generates the new activation key, which is entered into the computer. It would be quite simple to make sure the (Steam) website doesn't generate the activation keys until after the official release date.

The problem with that solution is that the decryption key would also have to be on the disc which would make the job of those trying to crack the game much easier.

[SCIAG]

I timed how long it takes the game to launch now. From clicking on my shortcut to the game first launching the splash screens took 131 seconds. When I'm finished on FM for the day, I'll launch 09 (easiest to do) and see how long that takes.

[axehan1]

is this thread still constructive criticism?this is the first time i have used steam and at the moment i have nothing but praise,download was relatively quick,installation was fine and at the moment not had a single problem(yet)playing in online mode aswell.

[RBKalle]

How many of those who illegally downloaded FM over the years would have gladly spent £30 or €45 for the original copy?!

See, I think the biggest fallacy behind the "we chose Steam to fight pirates" explaination lies right in that figure...

Not every pirate is a potential customer, but most customers will still be customers

Loyal FM'er have bought the game year after year (or at least when they were "into" the game)... some got it on day 1, some waited a while, some got it used or the Nice Price edition...

Casual FM'ers bought the game one-off...

Some casual players DID PIRATE it, but the question is: would have they bought it hadn't they found the £0 edition?

My answer is a resounding NO!

Let's be realistic... illegal copies have been around since the dawn of PC gaming, and I'm pretty sure we all have played some games for free we wouldn't have spent 5 quids on...

It's just natural... If I can get for FREE something I don't really want or need, I might as well get it... But if I'm going to pay, be it 10, 50 or 100, I'm going to spend my money on something I want and I know I'll like.

Therefore the Steam-only deal is a smart move financially but it's a debatable move from a PR standpoint, as it creates problems to several categories of users... Just take a look at Amazon's reviews...

[usernamehere]

Just take a look at Amazon's reviews...

I just had a look, and it is like 50% of comments/ratings are 1/5 just because of the steam issue! I guess them numbers cant be looked to far into, as people are more motivated to write a bad review than a good one IMO, but it goes to show that it is not just a hand full of people that are unhappy with the forced steam installation.

It is a shame that there will be only ONE way to play the game without steam, and that is not a road I want to go down

[Blaupunkt]

I just had a look, and it is like 50% of comments/ratings are 1/5 just because of the steam issue! I guess them numbers cant be looked to far into, as people are more motivated to write a bad review than a good one IMO, but it goes to show that it is not just a hand full of people that are unhappy with the forced steam installation.

It is a shame that there will be only ONE way to play the game without steam, and that is not a road I want to go down

what ? of the 27 user reviews that are on there now as of 22:20 as i type this 10 give it 1 star, 1 person gives it 1 star, 1 person gives it 3 stars and 13 people give it 5 stars out of 5. how is that 50% of people giving it 1 star ??

[usernamehere]

what ? of the 27 user reviews that are on there now as of 22:20 as i type this 10 give it 1 star, 1 person gives it 1 star, 1 person gives it 3 stars and 13 people give it 5 stars out of 5. how is that 50% of people giving it 1 star ??

I was basing it on the 5 stars and 1 stars! note I said "it is lke 50%", I am very sorry, it is currently 37.03703703703704% now can you sleep tonight? geez.

[Blaupunkt]

I was basing it on the 5 stars and 1 stars! note I said "it is lke 50%", I am very sorry, it is currently 37.03703703703704% now can you sleep tonight? geez.

but its not "like 50%" at all, what your doing is posting misleading information, people come onto these forums read things like that then scream and shout about how half the gamers who buy FM hate it and steam.

you only have to look at all the misinformation posted on these very forums about steam and how people jump on the steam hating band wagon with out really knowing what they are talking about, look at the threads about the "game breaking bugs" and how they are not playing the game until the first patch is out, i would wager that a lot of these people moaning have not even en counted these bugs, i have 2 games going, 1 on my laptop i use during the day and 1 on the PC i am using now and i am yet to see any of these game breaking bugs or if i have seen them i have not noticed!

EDIT:

P.S. i would have been able to sleep just fine by the way

[KUBI]

I just had a look, and it is like 50% of comments/ratings are 1/5 just because of the steam issue!

That's most probably because the game itself is that good.

[RBKalle]

Does it really matters if the 1* reviews or the "I'm not buying it" posts on here are from "uninformed users"?

The matter of fact is their money is as good as that of super-competent users and professional apoligists... and it's money SEGA/SI aren't going to get this year or are likely to lose next year should things not change...

Also, I'd like to point your attention back to my original question:

How many "pirates" would actually pay for their copy of FM anyway?

How many regular users would have bought the game if it had Steam-less activation/playability?

I'm pretty sure the latter group would be much bigger than the former one.

Pirating is "a way to get for free something I'd not pay much for, if at all"... Upsetting a portion of the PAYING CUSTOMERS in order to discourage a portion of non-paying casual players is like chopping your jonhson off to punish a girl who didn't want to sleep with you anymore.

[SCIAG]

I timed how long it takes the game to launch now. From clicking on my shortcut to the game first launching the splash screens took 131 seconds. When I'm finished on FM for the day, I'll launch 09 (easiest to do) and see how long that takes.

FM09 took 42 seconds. That means that using Steam is taking me 89 seconds, or a minute and a half, each time I want to use it. It might not seem like much, but a) try sitting there for 90 seconds without doing anything and see how long it is, and b) that adds up pretty quickly. I'll probably launch FM 100 times a year, that's two and a half hours waiting for Steam to load. It's worse when Steam's client has to update.

However you try and spin it, Steam is much more intrusive than any other form of DRM SI have used. I really hope it isn't compulsory to use it next year, and if SI manage to bring out a patch that removes the need to go through Steam for FM12 then I'll go out and buy two more copies of FM12.

[Loversleaper]

so am i right in thinking that while you agree that it is illegal to pirate software, you do not agree that pirating software is actually theft ?

Honestly, it doesn't matter what I 'think'. If I were to clarify my standpoint:

Should piracy be illegal? - Of course it should

Is piracy theft? - For the laws/law makers to determine

Should there be a punishment for piracy? - For the laws/law enforcers to deal with, but personally I think it should

Should the prevention of piracy be in the hands of the gaming industry? - Not exactly and let me explain

I think that you have the right to prevent, but it has to be within reason. These things should be determined by the rules and laws that we live by. If the gaming industry manages to get around the first sale doctrines and the consumer protection laws then hats off to them. I don't know how many of you are consumers, but these kind of things can be a cause for worry for some. What will be next? That is one of the things that can make one wonder once you start going down these type of paths.

I know that it is clear that the ones that don't have problems with Steam 'don't see the problem'. Lately there has been a sort of attitude that the ones that complain about Steam are just hating for the sake of hating, that they are basically lying about it - but looking around at different forums suggest that there are some problems. There is not much simpathy for these people when you read some posts from the pro-steam posters.

Preventing piracy is one thing, but at what cost? Preventing people who have done nothing wrong and have paid for the game is something entirely else. Even though it might be acceptable damage in the eyes of the gaming industry, I find it unacceptable damage as a consumer...

[Blaupunkt]

FM09 took 42 seconds. That means that using Steam is taking me 89 seconds, or a minute and a half, each time I want to use it. It might not seem like much, but a) try sitting there for 90 seconds without doing anything and see how long it is, and b) that adds up pretty quickly. I'll probably launch FM 100 times a year, that's two and a half hours waiting for Steam to load. It's worse when Steam's client has to update.

However you try and spin it, Steam is much more intrusive than any other form of DRM SI have used. I really hope it isn't compulsory to use it next year, and if SI manage to bring out a patch that removes the need to go through Steam for FM12 then I'll go out and buy two more copies of FM12.

i just did the same test, from clicking the steam short cut on my task bar, typing in my P/W closing down the deals of the day pop up steam has, and then launching FM 12 to the point where i can click "load my last save game" it took just over 48 seconds.

[nessi]

FM09 took 42 seconds. That means that using Steam is taking me 89 seconds, or a minute and a half, each time I want to use it. It might not seem like much, but a) try sitting there for 90 seconds without doing anything and see how long it is, and b) that adds up pretty quickly. I'll probably launch FM 100 times a year, that's two and a half hours waiting for Steam to load. It's worse when Steam's client has to update.

However you try and spin it, Steam is much more intrusive than any other form of DRM SI have used. I really hope it isn't compulsory to use it next year, and if SI manage to bring out a patch that removes the need to go through Steam for FM12 then I'll go out and buy two more copies of FM12.

I really admire your intellectual honesty and agree with every single word you said

[usernamehere]

I just had a read through steams terms, and a few points just reinforced my view about having to have 3rd party software to play FM 2012, I am posting the main ones that concern me, but for fairness, the link to read through all their terms is at the bottom of this post.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this section in particular, from those who do, and do not want the steam software on their PC.

steam terms

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

full terms: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

[RBKalle]

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

Well that doesn't sound encouraging, albeit some of it might just be a "you can't sue us if something goes wrong" sort of deal, possibly to keep their ass safe in case of outside interferences?

Anyway I still don't see a reason why I should be FORCED to accept such ToS in order to play a game I might have purchased in its boxed "flesh and bones" version and be HAPPY ABOUT THAT!

Is it better for the producers? Sure.

Is it better for the developers? Allegedly so.

But is it better for ME? Hell no.

It's a simple case of "my way or the highway" and IMO it's not a smart choice for a niche product...

P.S. on a more general note, how come a digital download copy of a game is often as expensive (if not MORE, in FM12 case for € customers) as a traditional boxed copy?

No costs for media production, packaging, distribution and no retailers' profit... Why should I pay 50€ for a game I don't even "own"?

[usernamehere]

Off topic, but I was just googling piracy and football manager in regards to this thread, when I found this video titled "All Football Manager 2012 Fans - Here is the CRACK!!!"

(please note it IS NOT the crack! so I guess its ok to post?) haha.. take that you pirates!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irpPLeHprP0

[thesandman]

Honestly, it doesn't matter what I 'think'. If I were to clarify my standpoint:

Should piracy be illegal? - Of course it should

Is piracy theft? - For the laws/law makers to determine

Should there be a punishment for piracy? - For the laws/law enforcers to deal with, but personally I think it should

Should the prevention of piracy be in the hands of the gaming industry? - Not exactly and let me explain

I think that you have the right to prevent, but it has to be within reason. These things should be determined by the rules and laws that we live by. If the gaming industry manages to get around the first sale doctrines and the consumer protection laws then hats off to them. I don't know how many of you are consumers, but these kind of things can be a cause for worry for some. What will be next? That is one of the things that can make one wonder once you start going down these type of paths.

I know that it is clear that the ones that don't have problems with Steam 'don't see the problem'. Lately there has been a sort of attitude that the ones that complain about Steam are just hating for the sake of hating, that they are basically lying about it - but looking around at different forums suggest that there are some problems. There is not much simpathy for these people when you read some posts from the pro-steam posters.

Preventing piracy is one thing, but at what cost? Preventing people who have done nothing wrong and have paid for the game is something entirely else. Even though it might be acceptable damage in the eyes of the gaming industry, I find it unacceptable damage as a consumer...

Firstly, let me say this so I'm not accused of being biased or a raving fanboy. I won't be buying FM this year. I play on my work provided laptop, and the systems guys won't let me install Steam. End of story.

Secondly, even if I was going to, it would have (probably) been of ebay after the final patch, when somebody is sick of their game.

Now, Steam has killed the second hand market for FM. Will that have an impact on its sales figures? Don't know. Probably not immediately, it may even increase sales, but over the long term? I've got into many 'series' of games by first buying an old second hand copy, and then after that buying the new versions as they're released (both for PC and console games). I have been an infrequent buyer over the last few years anyway, as I haven't really liked the direction the game is going (too much peripheral rubbish, not enough football), so I'm no great loss to SI.

Anyway, the game is SI's to do as they please with, no matter what I think. Piracy is theft, end of story. Another crap analogy is that sure, you're not directly stealing a tangible good, but it's no different to photocopying or scanning a book. And even if only 1 in 100 potential pirates buy the game, it's an extra sale. (no way in hell you'll convert 1 in 4).

As for the "but pirates will eventually buy it" argument, that's just rubbish. Why would they? they've got a perfectly functioning game for free. They will spend that money on something they don't already have. That's both common sense, and also borne out in my own real world experience.

As for whether SI should get involved in actively trying to prevent piracy?? Of course they should, that's just crazy to think otherwise. A company can bring in whatever inconvenience to their loyal, legal customers to prevent theft. It's no different to a bricks and mortar store checking bags on the way out of the shop, putting rfid tags on clothes (that put holes in clothes), limiting the number of items customers can try on, putting goods in lockable display cabinets etc.

Retail stores don't just make no effort to prevent theft, and sit around and hope the law sorts out the thieves. That would be mental.

Just as I've been in some newsagents where the owners have told some guys reading the magazines basically to "buy it or bugger off

What I'm saying is, even as a pretty vocal critic of SI at times (and even of the Steam thing, purely because it impacts me ) I understand why they're trying to do it. Piracy really does pose the threat of wrecking all forms of the entertainment industry, and it's only going to get worse as people that are now teenagers grow up with the attitude that piracy (or "getting stuff for free") is a perfectly legitimate way of acquiring things.

[shirajzl]

Piracy really does pose the threat of wrecking all forms of the entertainment industry, and it's only going to get worse as people that are now teenagers grow up with the attitude that piracy (or "getting stuff for free") is a perfectly legitimate way of acquiring things.

I think it's already too late for that. Most of kids nowadays consider downloading games/movies/music a normal way of getting things. No counter measure by SI or any other company will change that. Every game can be cracked, it's just a matter of time. The most (in)famous cracking groups fight for prestige in cracking game after game, especially world-wide popular games like FM.

What SI have achieved this year is that there's still no cracked version of FM out there (AFAIK), which means almost a week after the official release the only way to play the game is to actually buy it (mind you, that is partially because pirates were busy cracking some other popular titles like Battlefield 3). I know for a fact that has swayed many impatient people to buy it, instead of waiting for crack. Judging by that, SI accomplished their mission. The regulars buyers who won't buy the game because of Steam-only policy are obviously collateral damage. Although, the question is, how many of honest and long-time costumers will simply turn to pirated version this year when it comes out?

[Wiggins Top Boys]

Of course it's about the bottom line. What Neil was referring to is the oft-given allegation that we're all just money-grabbing bandits and that's not the case. From SI's perspective certainly, the more money that the game makes, the more is invested back into the studio, meaning more developers, better tools and an improved game at the end of it. Here at SI, we really are just fans of the game and of football, trying to make as good a game as we can.

I'm not going to get into the does Piracy affect the bottom line argument here, because I've read your (x42bn6's) thoughts a few times on this forum and suffice to say that we, and the experts who SEGA employ, disagree with you on that front. I'm not saying you're wrong, many other experts agree with your perspective, but we're all entitled to our opinions and ours is that piracy affects sales, and by reducing piracy, especially pre-release, we'll increase sales.

The problem with adding the extra alternatives you suggest is that they're all much easier to crack than the options we've chosen this year. The fight against piracy is only as strong as the weakest link in our defence. We believe that the methods we've chosen this year offer 100% pre-release protection (which has been proved) and a damned good effort after that (which, as it hasn't been cracked yet, also looks to be working). If we had offered other options as well, there's no guarantee we would have had the same successes. SEGA's experts advised that other options available just wouldn't have been as good so the chances are we might well have been cracked by now if we had.

As you say though, it's all measured by the bottom line, so if we're wrong and the extra protection has a negative effect this year as many have suggested, then we'll obviously look at things again. We're doing ok in the charts so far though

i make it 100k down on last years week 1 sales in europe. that's nearly half. is that correct or close?

[Neil Dejyothin]

i make it 100k down on last years week 1 sales in europe. that's nearly half. is that correct or close?

No where near close, and we're not even a week in yet either.

[Wiggins Top Boys]

fair enough just looking up something else and came across it. i'm going to guess they were first day or weekend sales given the release date, i foolishly didn't check it

[RBKalle]

I know for a fact that has swayed many impatient people to buy it, instead of waiting for crack. Judging by that, SI accomplished their mission.

But those are customers who would have probably bought the game anyway!!!

Steam or no Steam, cracked copy available on day -1 or on day 10, 30 or 100...

I can hardly imagine "compulsive downloaders" biting their nails while frantically searching the net for a working cracked version of FM2012 and then deciding they have waited enough and paying to get their legit copy on Steam, on Amazon or at the local gaming store.

All I can concede is a tiny portion of "lazy FM fans" might have bought the game instead of trying the illegal copy as some sort of "extended demo" to evaluate it before eventually buying it later on, but that's a SMALL portion of the fanbase, and it's not even guaranteed they could count as "increased sales" beucause for many it was just a matter of an "early purchase" of something they would eventually had bought anyway.

The regulars buyers who won't buy the game because of Steam-only policy are obviously collateral damage. Although, the question is, how many of honest and long-time costumers will simply turn to pirated version this year when it comes out?

That's the interesting part of the deal, and one I'm not sure SEGA/SI have considered while embracing Steam...

IMO it's much more likely than a regular buyer would think "sod it, I'm not buying it" because he doesn't like/want Steam (out of technical ignorance, out of technical issues or out of sheer matter of principle) rather than an impatient pirate thinking "oh god, the crack's not out yet... I'll buy the game!"

Collateral damage is affordable if the main objective is achieved, but to be completely honest I don't think chasing a couple of potentially converted pirates is worth the certainty of alianating a portion of the loyal and paying fanbase.

[milnerpoint]

That's the interesting part of the deal, and one I'm not sure SEGA/SI have considered while embracing Steam...

IMO it's much more likely than a regular buyer would think "sod it, I'm not buying it" because he doesn't like/want Steam (out of technical ignorance, out of technical issues or out of sheer matter of principle) rather than an impatient pirate thinking "oh god, the crack's not out yet... I'll buy the game!"

Collateral damage is affordable if the main objective is achieved, but to be completely honest I don't think chasing a couple of potentially converted pirates is worth the certainty of alianating a portion of the loyal and paying fanbase.

I always laugh when people assume they have thought of something a dedicated team of people who speciaise in these things might have missed, these people think of everything and every situation, that is their job, if they missed something as simple as that SI would not be around.

These people you speak about, the regular buyer with a steam issue right now has no option to use a hack, there isnt one on out.

Again with the "loyal" comments, so loyal they ditch the game as soon as they dont agree with an activation method.....

[wild2475]

I always laugh when people assume they have thought of something a dedicated team of people who speciaise in these things might have missed, these people think of everything and every situation, that is their job, if they missed something as simple as that SI would not be around.

These people you speak about, the regular buyer with a steam issue right now has no option to use a hack, there isnt one on out.

Again with the "loyal" comments, so loyal they ditch the game as soon as they dont agree with an activation method.....

I think it is important to realise that the activation of the game isn't really the main issue that people have had.

It's the fact that AFTER activation of the game Steam remains on the system and as we are seeing especially via the patch updates this can cause many users issues for a variety of reasons.

Many companies have made huge marketing mistakes in the past and time will tell, probably FM13 and not 12 (if Steam remains) what the true cost to SI/Sega is.

Many charts have FM12 down to position 2 or 3 in the PC charts already, not sure how the sales compare to last year and maybe this is normal.

[RBKalle]

I always laugh when people assume they have thought of something a dedicated team of people who speciaise in these things might have missed, these people think of everything and every situation, that is their job, if they missed something as simple as that SI would not be around.

Then have a good laugh...

I'm not saying I've thought of something particularly clever.. it's just a consideration based on what I know about paying customers, dedicated customers, occasional dowloaders and "bulimic downloaders".

About SI having people to think about every circumstance, well... it doesn't take a genius to see there's unrest in the FM community thanks to the Steam-only deal.

SI thought it was the best way to go, but I still maintain they're getting the "pirates can be buyers" philosophy completely backwards! I can gurantee you those who download several GBs worth of games EVERY DAY won't lose sleep over FM12 not being cracked... They'll just find something else.

These people you speak about, the regular buyer with a steam issue right now has no option to use a hack, there isnt one on out.

Not yet, sure. And if it will never be one, many won't buy the game at all.

So, again, how smart is it? Losing CERTAIN PURCHASES in order to prevent people who wouldn't have purchased the game anyway from playing it for free illegally?

Let's assume last year there were 100000 illegal copies of FM11 stored/installed, how many of those do you think would have been legit purchases if there hadn't been the cracked copy around?

Again with the "loyal" comments, so loyal they ditch the game as soon as they dont agree with an activation method.....

I might be loyal but I'm not married to FM, so if I don't like the direction it's going I see no reason to put myself through annoying/unpleasant experiences just to play a game (I might even not be able to play at times due to ridiculous technical issues)

[Loversleaper]

Now, Steam has killed the second hand market for FM. Will that have an impact on its sales figures? Don't know. Probably not immediately, it may even increase sales, but over the long term?

Retail stores don't just make no effort to prevent theft, and sit around and hope the law sorts out the thieves. That would be mental.

Just as I've been in some newsagents where the owners have told some guys reading the magazines basically to "buy it or bugger off

I have said that you can use prevention, but it has to be within reason. Usually when you go into stores you are not inconvenienced in a manner where you have to jump through hoops just to get into the store and then when you buy something, go out the door to find that there is nothing in your bag after you paid money over the counter...

Second hand markets have been around for ages and something that has always been beneficial to our society, keeps the money flowing and allows people who couldn't afford the product straight off the shelf to have chance to enjoy it as well...

That is why the first-sale doctrines and consumer protection laws were made to start with. They were not implemented for any other reason than to look out for and protect the customer, these laws uphold the standard of products and the service that goes with them. That is why if the gaming industry gets around these laws then there will be other corps who will try to do the same, and evidently it will be the cosumers/customers that will be punished (hence the reason of the laws to start with)...

That is why I do not entirely agree with the gaming industry to take these matters fully into their own hands, their self interest will outwiegh the customer and go against the laws that protect us, well the consumer at least (because judging by a lot of posts, a lot of people are talking as if they are not consumers)...

[milnerpoint]

Then have a good laugh...

I'm not saying I've thought of something particularly clever.. it's just a consideration based on what I know about paying customers, dedicated customers, occasional dowloaders and "bulimic downloaders".

About SI having people to think about every circumstance, well... it doesn't take a genius to see there's unrest in the FM community thanks to the Steam-only deal.

SI thought it was the best way to go, but I still maintain they're getting the "pirates can be buyers" philosophy completely backwards! I can gurantee you those who download several GBs worth of games EVERY DAY won't lose sleep over FM12 not being cracked... They'll just find something else.

There is unreast amongst a small minority of forum users, change always brings unrest, it will always leave some people behind and encourage some new people to get involved, that is the nature of change. Steam is not this big FM revolution, its just SI catching up with the rest of the PC gaming world. It wont be going away anytime soon.

Not yet, sure. And if it will never be one, many won't buy the game at all.

So, again, how smart is it? Losing CERTAIN PURCHASES in order to prevent people who wouldn't have purchased the game anyway from playing it for free illegally?

Let's assume last year there were 100000 illegal copies of FM11 stored/installed, how many of those do you think would have been legit purchases if there hadn't been the cracked copy around?

I wont put any numbers to that question because obviously i have none. Losing certain sales to move your product forward is part and parcel of the commercial world we live in, if companies stand still they risk being exposed or left behind, this is just another example of a company reacting to the more modern world of PC gaming.

As has been discussed over and over and over, converting the majority of pirates is not the point of this, delaying their ability to pirate the game is, which SI have been very successful with.

I might be loyal but I'm not married to FM, so if I don't like the direction it's going I see no reason to put myself through annoying/unpleasant experiences just to play a game (I might even not be able to play at times due to ridiculous technical issues)

Your not loyal, i am not loyal, no customer is loyal, you pay for a product, if you dont like the product you dont buy it again, its not about loyalty its about enjoyment. You dont buy the game year after year if you hate it.

[Loversleaper]

Loyalty goes both ways or not...

[milnerpoint]

Loyalty goes both ways or not...

If we really must go down this route, then loyalty would be buying the game even tho you hate steam and dont agree with what is being asked of you, because your loyal to the game and will support it even during bad times, loyalty is not turning your back as soon as SI do something you dont agree with.

But like i say loyalty when buying a computer game doesnt exists.

[Loversleaper]

If we really must go down this route, then loyalty would be buying the game even tho you hate steam and dont agree with what is being asked of you, because your loyal to the game and will support it even during bad times, loyalty is not turning your back as soon as SI do something you dont agree with.

But like i say loyalty when buying a computer game doesnt exists.

So, that means it's perfectly okay for SI to force Steam on us to play our favorite game, evidently causing some loyal customers to be prevented from playing game (the ones who did nothing wrong) - and you expect them to carry on being loyal...?

I bet you are someone who sides with the corps and thinks collateral damage is acceptable...

Good luck (I hope they pay you well)

[Kriss]

This gets closed pretty soon the way it's going, don't need another 45 pages of going in circles, ta muchly:D

[milnerpoint]

So, that means it's perfectly okay for SI to force Steam on us to play our favorite game, evidently causing some loyal customers to be prevented from playing game (the ones who did nothing wrong) - and you expect them to carry on being loyal...?

I bet you are someone who sides with the corps and thinks collateral damage is acceptable...

Good luck (I hope they pay you well)

I didnt say they were loyal, infact i have stated several times none of us are. But it is perfectly ok for SI to insist on steam and force anyone who wants to play their game to use it, it still leaves everyone with a choice.

Anyway im off to enjoy my new 99" flat screen TV Miles personally took round to my house for sticking up for FM so much, you enjoy FM11

[themadsheep2001]

This gets closed pretty soon the way it's going, don't need another 45 pages of going in circles, ta muchly:D

It was kind of inevitable though. The same very good points raised by all sides of the debate. But since there isnt going to be an agreement it just comes down to the sides repeaing their stance

[Elohir]

Yes we have had threads about this type of issue before but they have been closed time and time again even though there are very valid arguments made within the threads. So to try to avoid a thread being closed (or giving SI a reason to close it) please comment with constructive criticism of the decision (or praise if they are your feelings) and how this has affected your ability to play the game or to even purchase it.

It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I've played CM/FM games since the early 90s, bought the expansions, bought the data updates, even bought the quiz game (I also won a copy when I was working for SI/Eidos *wave* )

That was until the ridiculous Sega DRM debacles we're now guaranteed every year and I'll never buy them again (this also includes most of my mates, my sister and my brother in law, who were all CM/FM addicts and who have all now given up on the game).

Don't get me wrong, I still love the game and I think it's a masterpiece, but until SI go back to their roots and put customer first I'll be sat on the sidelines waiting patiently.

[Sherdil]

All I can say is that I am glad that I am able to help SI in the development of next year's game by buying the game for a fair modest price. I'm gonna play this game no less than 300 hours this season so paying £30 for it is paying 10 cents per hour. I think that's a pretty darn good deal! Plus I can be assured of an even better game next year. Really, if everyone just bought the game the past few years, steam wouldn't even be in the picture. But now that it is, since I know it is for a good cause, I'm good with it. It's a great software that doesn't mess with your computer. Plus, you get to have the digital games basically forever.

If you don't want to buy the game, that is your choice, but I assure you that if you do, it'll be really worth it! Cheers!

P.S. Mods, perhaps it's time to close this thread?

[wild2475]

The thread should be left open as it is important that a variety of people get the opportunity to contribute to it and describe their thoughts on the subject.

Let's not have another thread closed by SI or a Mod and get pushed further down the Forum page only for other threads with similar issues to just be started again.

Keep it open, keep it respectful, don't have ongoing dialogues as it becomes an argument, but most of all describe your experience of the decision SI/Sega have made.

[Kriss]

The thread should be left open as it is important that a variety of people get the opportunity to contribute to it and describe their thoughts on the subject.

Let's not have another thread closed by SI or a Mod and get pushed further down the Forum page only for other threads with similar issues to just be started again.

Keep it open, keep it respectful, don't have ongoing dialogues as it becomes an argument, but most of all describe your experience of the decision SI/Sega have made.

We'd like to do that, one reason being that as any Steam issues get resolved and people become more familiar with it I'd hope and expect to detect that in a thread like this.

It's a fact that other games (Civ V is a good example) went through exactly this but on the even grander scale you'd expect given its sales, that picture changed over time, the same should happen here.

[Elohir]

..Doubleposted for some reason

[Elohir]

Actually, this post from 2008 says it better. Sad to see how right I was.

The whole issue boils down pretty simply imo.

SI are well within their rights to use this DRM. The decision to use it has already been made, and presumably was discussed at length with stakeholders so ranting and/or appealing to SI now is largely a waste of time.

The DRM will p*** off large numbers of legitimate customers (e.g. people buying the game and not being able to use it, concerns about number of activations, etc.)

The DRM will not prevent cracked versions of the game.

The more legitimate customers are p***ed off, the more people will download cracked versions of the game. Those customers not only represent lost sales for this release, but likely lost sales of all successive versions. (I.e. Why pay for v10 when you were burned by v9 and got it for free?)

The game will still sell, SI will make plenty of money on it and the sales they lose due to DRM almost certainly won't be enough to convince them not to do the same or worse next time.

Personally, I've just had 2 machine failures in a week and so even after owning the game for a few days, I'd be basically nearly halfway through the usable lifespan of the product.

I won't be getting a cracked version, but I won't be buying it either. Someone's really dropped the ball with this release.

Just my $0.02

[Jimmy_Jambo]

I know what is is what is, but no matter how much SI lose, they have done what has been done. Steam is not everyones cuppa tea. For me, its works fine, no problems. But in my mind, personally they are fighting the wrong corner in this one. Try to stop "pre-release" piracy. Thats irrelevent now, as the games nearly a week old. To me, the customers are more important than people who dont pay for the game. I couldn't give a rats cinnamon ring if some douche next door plays the game a week before me.. I have other things to do in life, and i would just play FM11 for a week longer, or Rage (the game, not kick my other half in her sponge) or something.

Steam has its pro and cons, and I see both arguments and im sitting with the guys who dont back Steam. Even though i use Steam alot!

My feelings are that a company shouldn't limit the customer, which is what SI have done. SI have backed people into a corner and rammed Steam down there throats, and people not willing to use Steam have no other option then to move on, which is bad marketing. They should offer online activation, EITHER via Steam or like a website generated by SI just for activation purposes. The way technology is moving it would seem simple to implement.

Thats my 2 pence on the matter.

[usernamehere]

I do not pretend to understand how technical things work, but...

Would it not of been possible to require steam to activate your game, then be able to remove steam to play it? (sorry if its been answered already).

[Guest]

I do not pretend to understand how technical things work, but...

Would it not of been possible to require steam to activate your game, then be able to remove steam to play it? (sorry if its been answered already).

In a word, no. I believe that Steam is used to validate the game each time you launch it which is why the hacking groups are having such a tough time, if you remove the need for Steam to remain installed the game would be much easier to hack as you'd only need to clone the initial activation protocol.

Disclaimer - Some or all of the above might be utter bull.