Constructive Criticism (Of Steam)

[Bertie BG]

One thing I dislike of Steam and a major fact that is continuously overlooked.

The terms & Conditions state that by using steam to activate a product you are placing that product entirely in the hands of steam and the Steam network has the right to remove your use of the system if it feels you have violated its use. Now, I have no idea what constitutes violation but I buy the product, not Steam therefore what right do Steam have to take away my product and forbid me from using it?

THIS is the one area I majorly disagree with and something that EVERYONE appears to have overlooked.

Taken from Valve T&C's -

All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors.

and

In the case of a free Subscription, Valve may choose to terminate or amend the terms of the Subscription as provided in the "Amendments to this Agreement" section above

I'm no lawyer so I can't state for definite what that may or may not be referring to, but I have utmost confidence that Steam would never remove any content without damned good reason. Pirating the game may well be one of those reasons, it being illegal and all.

As far as I'm aware (again with the caveat that I have no knowledge of lawyering, maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong), technically in pretty much every bit of software (FM included) you ever download, you never truly "own" it. You instead buy a license giving you permission to use it.

[Guest]

Your second suggestion would be even more inconvenient to the genuine purchaser than what we're suggesting now, and again, once the game is out there doesn't necessarily mean it's well protected.

We (or to be exact, the experts at SEGA) looked at every solution available and none would offer as good a protection as what we're doing now without causing a lot more inconvenience to the genuine consumer.

How would it be more inconvenient? At present any purchaser of the game must have access to the internet to download or activate the software so going to a 100% download model via a number of distribution channels is in my mind no more inconvenient but will more importantly offer choice to the consumer as to which online supplier they use.

I think this was mention in the original Steam thread & it's worth repeating, spin online distribution differently. Obviously its use as an anti-piracy measure is key & should not be swept under the carpet but also use this method of distribution as the ethical choice & that by no longer producing a boxed DVD natural resources are not be wasted to produce & ship an item that is 1 use only, all that energy has gone into creating something that cannot be used again.

Add a further spin to the use of natural resources in that as a charitable partner of Warchild it appeared contradictory to continue using resources, which the control off causes many conflicts, when there is a much easy, safer & less resource dependent way of getting your product to market.

As I say it's all about marketing a decision correctly & when it's done well your customers will accept it & better still you will get positive media exposure outside your normal consumer base, good props = increased exposure& potential first time consumers.

As far as I'm aware (again with the caveat that I have no knowledge of lawyering, maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong), technically in pretty much every bit of software (FM included) you ever download, you never truly "own" it. You instead buy a license giving you permission to use it.

About as close as you can get without straying into more legalese, when I buy FM I basically get your permission to install your property on my PC & in turn agree not to alter or share that product with any third party.

The tricky part is, what action you can take if I break that promise & whether a third party is allowed to intervene on your behalf? In this case can Steam prevent access if they thought I was up to no good regardless of whether that is related to your product or not.

I assume in the EULA there is reference that to install the game I/we must accept & abide by Steams(Valve's) terms of use, if there isn't then technically if a steam account is suspended but that action is not linked to any contravention of the EULA for FM then you might be required to provide that individual with a means to use your software.

[leeroytmofo]

How would it be more inconvenient? At present any purchaser of the game must have access to the internet to download or activate the software so going to a 100% download model via a number of distribution channels is in my mind no more inconvenient but will more importantly offer choice to the consumer as to which online supplier they use.

I think this was mention in the original Steam thread & it's worth repeating, spin online distribution differently. Obviously its use as an anti-piracy measure is key & should not be swept under the carpet but also use this method of distribution as the ethical choice & that by no longer producing a boxed DVD natural resources are not be wasted to produce & ship an item that is 1 use only, all that energy has gone into creating something that cannot be used again.

Add a further spin to the use of natural resources in that as a charitable partner of Warchild it appeared contradictory to continue using resources, which the control off causes many conflicts, when there is a much easy, safer & less resource dependent way of getting your product to market.

As I say it's all about marketing a decision correctly & when it's done well your customers will accept it & better still you will get positive media exposure outside your normal consumer base, good props = increased exposure& potential first time consumers.

about as close as you can get without straying into legalese, when I buy FM I basically get your permission to install your property on my PC & in turn agree not to alter or share that product with any third party.

Have to say, this is spot on.

No problem with online distribution, just Steam.

1) Offer online alternatives.

2) Phase out physical copies of the game (which this year are almost unnecessary anyway) and go the eco-route.

3) Plenty of football charities you could support in countries affected by global warming etc...

Marketing it as an anti-piracy move is really missing a trick. Surprised Sega aren't more savvy to be honest.

"It's about saving the planet" sounds so much better to the consumer than "we want to make more money".

[solstar]

technically in pretty much every bit of software (FM included) you ever download, you never truly "own" it. You instead buy a license giving you permission to use it.

Wrong on this part as legally you buy the product which is the copy of the game and you own that copy, as in the license code therefore preventing you from accessing or using your copy violates your ownership rules.

Clearly Valve have never gone to court on this matter and frankly I am amazed that you would think that the purchaser is not the owner of the product but an external, third party (Valve/Steam) is. The person paying the money is the owner, no two ways about this.

Take it to court and there would be a clearly breach of ownership rules.

We/Me/Us/I own the license, which is the game, or our copy of the game. Steam own nothing, SI own the copyright of the database to the game. What has happened is SI give Steam permission to grant access to the database for purchasers of a license. Fine. But suddenly this becomes Steam own that license. They DONT and its worrying that SI have not noticed this "little" point in the T&C's of Valve.

[Bertie BG]

How would it be more inconvenient? At present any purchaser of the game must have access to the internet to download or activate the software so going to a 100% download model via a number of distribution channels is in my mind no more inconvenient but will more importantly offer choice to the consumer as to which online supplier they use.

At the moment you only have to be online to activate and download the small day one patch, the rest can be installed from the disk. There's definitely a convenience difference between having to download 40mb or over 2gb, especially for those on slower connections.

It wouldn't be much difference to me personally, or I'm sure many around here, as I'm on a pretty speedy connection but although I think we're just about ok these days to expect everyone (or at least the vast majority) to have an internet connection to activate, we're still a little way off expecting everyone to have super fast broadband connections.

Maybe it could have been 'spun' differently in the announcement, feedback taken on board. It's difficult to get the balance on that side of things though, you lot are a (mostly) a pretty switched on bunch and would see through most marketing tricks

[solstar]

then technically if a steam account is suspended but that action is not linked to any contravention of the EULA for FM then you might be required to provide that individual with a means to use your software.

[/color]

This is what I am basically trying to say. Steam T&C's clearly violate the agreement between ME and SI. They cannot claim ownership over something they are merely a third party to.

[Guest]

Maybe it could have been 'spun' differently in the announcement, feedback taken on board. It's difficult to get the balance on that side of things though, you lot are a (mostly) a pretty switched on bunch and would see through most marketing tricks

Gives us a cheap token that is shiny & most of us would not notice what you took with the other hand.

[Bertie BG]

Wrong on this part as legally you buy the product which is the copy of the game and you own that copy, as in the license code therefore preventing you from accessing or using your copy violates your ownership rules.

Clearly Valve have never gone to court on this matter and frankly I am amazed that you would think that the purchaser is not the owner of the product but an external, third party (Valve/Steam) is. The person paying the money is the owner, no two ways about this.

Take it to court and there would be a clearly breach of ownership rules.

We/Me/Us/I own the license, which is the game, or our copy of the game. Steam own nothing, SI own the copyright of the database to the game. What has happened is SI give Steam permission to grant access to the database for purchasers of a license. Fine. But suddenly this becomes Steam own that license. They DONT and its worrying that SI have not noticed this "little" point in the T&C's of Valve.

I think the point of it being licensed rather than "owned" is that we still retain ownership of the code behind the game. I.E. you have no rights to delve in there and edit it yourself (I'm obviously not referring to the data editor here!), you only have the right to use the software as sold.

With the Steam T&C's in the bit that was quoted above it does specifically say:

owned by Valve and/or its licensors.

My non-lawyers head looks at that and/or and assumes that in this case, we (i.e. SI/SEGA) would be the licensors and so would be referring to the 'or' rather than the 'and'.

The owned by Valve bit would then refer to the fact that they also sell their own games through Steam and would therefore retain the legal ownership to those.

I may be talking rubbish though, so anyone is free to correct me

[Guest]

I guess it could be interpreted either way which is why lawyers sleep on a bed of money.

[solstar]

Yes but that states therefore that we, the guy who purchases the product with our money owns nothing. Leagally that cannot be right as its our money thats being spent. Valve/Steam own nothing, they never paid for it so how can they claim ownership over it and more importantly decide on us being able to use it.

As was mentioned before, worst case scenario, person would expect SI to provide an alternative if Valve/Steam barred them from accessing their licensed copy of the game and I dont want to hazard how much that would cost to setup.

Either way, its a pretty big clause to totally overlook and I am surprised that you seem a little unfamiliar with it. Personally I would say its a major sticking point to going all out with a third party, good on anti piracy or not.

[Guest]

Either way, its a pretty big clause to totally overlook and I am surprised that you seem a little unfamiliar with it.

That's a little harsh, for all we know Bertie could just be the SI Towers tea boy. :hugesafetywink:

[Loversleaper]

I think there is a lot of people that don't know the difference between 'theft' and software piracy. To steal something means that the original is lost, software piracy means that there will be more of them - so in the eyes of the law they will never be the same thing. So, regardless of how you or I feel, or SI for that matter, these are the facts...

It is illegal but the whole area where you draw the line is still in a very grey area. If it is illegal then it should be the responsibility of the law and law enforcers to take care of the problem, this shouldn't really be in the hands of the gaming industry because what is their reponse? Pass the responsibility on to their consumers, of course...

I know the argument will be that SI have the right to defend themselves, but the way that the gaming industry has done it more looks like they have taken a vigilante approach to it. I appreciate that many enjoy Steam, the only problem is that all the ones speaking for it doesn't have any problems with it (go figure, huh?)...

[Bertie BG]

Yes but that states therefore that we, the guy who purchases the product with our money owns nothing. Leagally that cannot be right as its our money thats being spent. Valve/Steam own nothing, they never paid for it so how can they claim ownership over it and more importantly decide on us being able to use it.

As was mentioned before, worst case scenario, person would expect SI to provide an alternative if Valve/Steam barred them from accessing their licensed copy of the game and I dont want to hazard how much that would cost to setup.

Either way, its a pretty big clause to totally overlook and I am surprised that you seem a little unfamiliar with it. Personally I would say its a major sticking point to going all out with a third party, good on anti piracy or not.

You do own something. A license to play the game. The code behind the game itself remains legally the possession of SEGA/SI. As I said, I don't think Valve are claiming ownership of it, I'm pretty sure in the case of FM that line would reads 'or' and refers to us.

If Valve/Steam barred you from playing the game it would be generally only be because you've broken the T&C, most likely through piracy. If that was the case, you certainly couldn't expect us to provide you with an alternative, if you've been pirating the game you would have broken our EULA as well.

I wouldn't be surprised that I'm personally unfamiliar, I am but one small cog in the process here. I'm pretty sure I can say with authority that no agreement would have been made to distribute it though Steam if the lawyers at SEGA felt that this was a problem.

If you ever did get barred from Steam and was wondering what the legal situation was, you can always contact SEGA or Valve's Customer Support and they'll be able to advise you on the best next steps.

[Bertie BG]

That's a little harsh, for all we know Bertie could just be the SI Towers tea boy. :hugesafetywink:

You're not too far wrong

[Bertie BG]

I think there is a lot of people that don't know the difference between 'theft' and software piracy. To steal something means that the original is lost, software piracy means that there will be more of them - so in the eyes of the law they will never be the same thing. So, regardless of how you or I feel, or SI for that matter, these are the facts...

It is illegal but the whole area where you draw the line is still in a very grey area. If it is illegal then it should be the responsibility of the law and law enforcers to take care of the problem, this shouldn't really be in the hands of the gaming industry because what is their reponse? Pass the responsibility on to their consumers, of course...

I know the argument will be that SI have the right to defend themselves, but the way that the gaming industry has done it more looks like they have taken a vigilante approach to it. I appreciate that many enjoy Steam, the only problem is that all the ones speaking for it doesn't have any problems with it (go figure, huh?)...

I wouldn't call it a vigilante approach, we're not exactly rounding people up and trying to get them put in prison. We're trying to stop it happening in the first place.

The equivalent in theft (I stress the word equivalent, I accept the legal differences), might be supermarkets putting safety locks on booze or asking for proof of ID. They're not trying to police underage drinking but they are trying to prevent it.

And before people go picking holes in the analogy, I'm not saying it's perfect

The law against piracy is there to protect the interests of the digital and creative industries so of course it's in our interest to try and prevent it.

[solstar]

I agree, I doubt Sega would've entered into a questionable agreement but as a user such a statement on the T&C's of Valve/Steam do raise eyebrows. Prior to using this system it was pretty clear what we could do but with this it seems that there is now another barrier to simply playing the game. If for whatever reason Steam are not happy with you, you can't play FM. Irrespective of what SI think or Sega think. THAT is worrying. To me at least.

I think its like buying a car and being told the wheels belong to the garage but you can use them unless the garage wants them back, then one day you go to your car and you have no wheels.

[solstar]

The law against piracy is there to protect the interests of the digital and creative industries so of course it's in our interest to try and prevent it.

Technically its there to prevent them losing money. Judging by what's constantly released within the music industry, it has nothing to do with creative interest.

[Bertie BG]

I agree, I doubt Sega would've entered into a questionable agreement but as a user such a statement on the T&C's of Valve/Steam do raise eyebrows. Prior to using this system it was pretty clear what we could do but with this it seems that there is now another barrier to simply playing the game. If for whatever reason Steam are not happy with you, you can't play FM. Irrespective of what SI think or Sega think. THAT is worrying. To me at least.

I think its like buying a car and being told the wheels belong to the garage but you can use them unless the garage wants them back, then one day you go to your car and you have no wheels.

If you have concerns, please do raise them to SEGA Customer Support, they may be able to assure you much better than I can

[Bertie BG]

Technically its there to prevent them losing money. Judging by what's constantly released within the music industry, it has nothing to do with creative interest.

I never said creative interest, I said the interest of the creative industries. Making money is of interest to any industry

[KUBI]

I think its like buying a car and being told the wheels belong to the garage but you can use them unless the garage wants them back, then one day you go to your car and you have no wheels.

People who are using car analogies should be banned.

(Or punished to read all the car analogies posted on this forum in the last 10 years.)

[Bertie BG]

People who are using car analogies should be banned.

Ha, after the original Steam thread I'm inclined to agree

Well, it's been fun but I'm off to bed

[Loversleaper]

I wouldn't call it a vigilante approach, we're not exactly rounding people up and trying to get them put in prison. We're trying to stop it happening in the first place.

Well, you guys did round us all up and tried to put us in Steam...

The equivalent in theft (I stress the word equivalent, I accept the legal differences), might be supermarkets putting safety locks on booze or asking for proof of ID. They're not trying to police underage drinking but they are trying to prevent it.

And before people go picking holes in the analogy, I'm not saying it's perfect

The law against piracy is there to protect the interests of the digital and creative industries so of course it's in our interest to try and prevent it.

I sincerely hope that booze and playing FM don't have the same consequences on society...

Prevention is one thing, but preventing the ones that have done nothing wrong is what I do not entirely agree with...

[auto98uk]

Steam sales are quite possibly the greatest thing in the universe ever. And if no games decided to go on steam, those sales probably wouldn't happen. So I like games going on steam.

[Sjg123]

After reading through this thread, the feeling is that the anti-Steam faithful are just conservative and resisting change for the sake of it...

Aside from preventing people with no internet access (or option to use someone elses) from activating the game, I don't see any noteable issues with Steam.

Steam is preventing piracy.

Steam eases distribution of both the game itself and updates.

Steam doesn't do anything suspicious on your comp, even though your dimwit AV might tell you it is. False positives are hardly uncommon, I used to get them all the time before I changed AV programs.

And people who have clearly never set foot in a law school should probably not try to pick EULA/ToS (or any other legal) documents apart... It takes some getting used to interpretation of legal documents (I'm a law school student). Too lazy to copy and paste from the thread, but there are two or three things I can tell you right now:

1. "All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors."

Valve does not own nor claim to own the game, as one of the SI guys pointed out SI/SEGA is a liscensor. Hence SI/SEGA is the owner of the intellectual property.

2. As has been correctly pointed out, you never actually own any software you purchase. You own a liscense to use it. The significance of this difference lies in what you can and cannot do with your liscense compared to software that is your intellectual property.

By buying a liscense you are entitled to use, but not modify/change (unless this is allowed by the owner of the intellectual property rights) or reproduce with the intent of selling the software. If you actually own the software, either by creating it yourself or by purchasing the rights to it, you will obviously to do as you damn well please with it.

3. "In the case of a free Subscription, Valve may choose to terminate or amend the terms of the Subscription as provided in the "Amendments to this Agreement" section above"

This relates to Valve games, not liscensed games, as far as I can tell.

[Loversleaper]

And people who have clearly never set foot in a law school should probably not try to pick EULA/ToS (or any other legal) documents apart... It takes some getting used to interpretation of legal documents (I'm a law school student). Too lazy to copy and paste from the thread, but there are two or three things I can tell you right now:

1. "All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors."

Valve does not own nor claim to own the game, as one of the SI guys pointed out SI/SEGA is a liscensor. Hence SI/SEGA is the owner of the intellectual property.

This law can only have an effect as long as it doesn't effect the Consumer Protection laws. This area is still fairly grey due to the fact that people are forking over money...

2. As has been correctly pointed out, you never actually own any software you purchase. You own a liscense to use it. The significance of this difference lies in what you can and cannot do with your liscense compared to software that is your intellectual property.

By buying a liscense you are entitled to use, but not modify/change (unless this is allowed by the owner of the intellectual property rights) or reproduce with the intent of selling the software. If you actually own the software, either by creating it yourself or by purchasing the rights to it, you will obviously to do as you damn well please with it.

In law terms purchase means you acquire (in other words: own). The two points above is very well thought out, the only problem is that EULA/tos documents don't state that we need to use Steam by law...

3. "In the case of a free Subscription, Valve may choose to terminate or amend the terms of the Subscription as provided in the "Amendments to this Agreement" section above"

This relates to Valve games, not liscensed games, as far as I can tell.

There is always small print and it sometimes can be hard to grasp the actual meaning behind it, to some this point could be perceived as a precaution 'just incase' they go bust...

[Robioto]

I've made my feelings clear in a number of threads. But I'm far from happy at being forced to use Steam. A 3rd party programme that I should ahve the option to use. I've had problems with it in the past with past versions of FM as well as in general in the few times with other games. I tried it with FM2010 and turned off automatic updates so the game wouldn't patch itself but it did anyway, which in turn ended up destroying a long term save as it completely knackered many of the games main features making it unplayable. I don't want ads popping up every time I play the game, I don't want error messages every other time I open the game and I certainly don't want patches being downloaded automatically whic will potentially ruin my save.

I bought the retail version to avoid all this Steam rubbish, then I find out there is no difference apart from disc installation being quicker than downloading and it doesn't even come with all the content as I had to download the editor and resource archiver anyway!

As a regular paying customer I'm not happy with the descision, at all. I expect my (or others) protests will achieve nothing but there you go. I have made my point 3 times now in different threads).

[Sjg123]

This law only can have an effect as long as it doesn't effect the Consumer Protection laws. This area is still fairly grey due to the fact that people are forking over money...

No, the principles behind "All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors." are pretty much universally accepted in the developed world. I don't see any shades of grey in this instance.

In law terms purchase means you aquire (in other words: own). The two points above is very well thought out, the only problem is that EULA/tos documents don't state that we need to use Steam by law...

That is correct, but you are not buying the game in legal terms. You are buying the right to use it, also known as a liscense. As far as the EULA/ToS documents go, I have not read more than the excerpts posted in this thread, but there is no legal reason why Steam would have to be mentioned. Even if you refuse to install Steam on your computer and as such are unable to play the game, that is you preventing yourself from playing it, not SI, Sega, Valve or anyone else.

I could see this point if there were any truly legitimate legal reasons to complain about Steam, but there simply aren't any.

There is always small print and it sometimes can be hard to grasp the actual meaning behind it, to some this point could be perceived as a precaution 'just incase' they go bust...

Truth be told, the intention and meaning (in legal terms) of the quote "In the case of a free Subscription, Valve may choose to terminate or amend the terms of the Subscription as provided in the "Amendments to this Agreement" section above" is impossible to read due to the lack of context. Normally, important terms (such as "subscription"/"free subscription") will be defined in the preliminary chapters of the agreement and the "Amendments..." will give the conditions for when they can do what.

[Lazaru5]

I've been thinking about this and basically Sjg123 is right. Computer piracy is theft, pure and simple, and I'll tell you for why.

Back in the '80's two brothers came up with the idea of creating a football manager game. From that moment they owned the Intellectual Property rights to that idea. They'd thought of it, and it was theirs to do whatever they wanted to do with it. They chose to share it with others, but with caveats... you can use this software, this intellectual property of mine, but only if you agree to certain conditions - one of which involves the payment of money for the permission. Whether Paul and Ov are still the only owners of the IP rights or not is not the point, what is the point is the fact that we pay for permission to use their intellectual property.

Computer pirates don't pay for the permission, they use it anyway - they steal the Collyer bros. intellectual property. Theft, no if's, no but's... simple.

Whilst I may be against Steam, I'm most certainly against computer piracy too.. I'm perfectly happy to pay for the rights to play Football Manager, but this year I don't agree with the terms under which it is available for much documented reasons and so won't be buying it. That's not to say that I don't congratulate SI/SEGA on the apparent success of the Steam-only activation, long may it continue I'm just sorry that I'm not able to play the game myself because of it:(

However, on a side-note... I hope RiM paid boatloads for the '09 ads... although why they think anybody would want a Blackberry after the server failure is beyond me...

[Max Keitt]

I would much rather have a boxed copy of the game, but Steam has never caused me problems. In addition, I really appreciate Steam's support for independent developers (e.g. Terraria).

SI deserves to get paid for their work, so I can't blame them for doing what they can to keep people from stealing from them.

[Graham206]

I just want to know if all the people who object to Steam on principle - "I object to having to install third party software" also boycott BBC iplayer which requires Adobe Air to run?

When I first had to install Steam a couple of years ago I had the same sort of kneejerk conservative response - why do I have to install this rubbish? Now I've seen how effective it is in practice, using minimal resources, making patching effortless and even updating my video drivers, I can see I was completely wrong. And I understand that Steam or equivalent, like EA Origin, is becoming standard for PC gaming. If you want to play games on a sophisticated machine which can be used to pirate games some type of copyright protection is inevitable, I'm afraid.

[wild2475]

As the OP I think it is good to see that people are looking and commenting on the issues raised and voicing their opinions good or bad on the Steam decision and the overall stance by Sega/SI on the situation.

Obviously there are people for and against the decision, some love Steam, some grudgingly accept Steam, and others refuse to use it at all.

The most interesting thing I have seen so far is that slowly but surely SI have admitted that the Steam decision wasn't just down to piracy but there were other benefits to them that were also taken into account. It's a small point but the official Q&A from Sega made it very clear that this was a pirating decision only and obviously this isn't the case.

A few other points to think about is that by forcing every user of the game to use 3rd party software you are totally reliant (unless there is a very good and quick back up plan in place) on that company and this piece of software. We have seen quite recently that hackers have brought down Sega's systems (and these forums), targeted Sony, etc and that personal information is likely to have been stolen and whether encrypted or not could be easily accessed with the right tools. What happens if Steam/Valve go bankrupt (not uncommon nowadays for even successful companies) or if their systems have a major glitch whether malicious or not?

Let's also be honest, what happens if this decision stops piracy or at least causes a huge disruption to the pirates but causes game sales/profits to fall due to the Steam protest? Of course, Steam would get dumped very quick whether the piracy issues were a success or not, thats why this has never just been about piracy.

Each to their own, we all have different morals, different standards, and different ways of gaming. Some like this move others detest it not just beacuase of Steam but the way it was handled and the way having the software constantly on their PC is not to their liking due to privacy, crashes, resource issues, etc.

I hope at the least SI (because I really don't think Sega care) acknowledge (and I think they do) that this decision has affected a fair few people who have loyally played and contributed to this game. I personally feel that some of what I felt was the ethos of SI has disintegrated over this decision but maybe that was just my interpretation of the company they were.

[Loversleaper]

I've been thinking about this and basically Sjg123 is right. Computer piracy is theft, pure and simple, and I'll tell you for why.

Computer pirates don't pay for the permission, they use it anyway - they steal the Collyer bros. intellectual property. Theft, no if's, no but's... simple.

We have been through this already, software piracy is not theft and I'll tell you why. To steal means that the original is lost, software piracy means that there will be more of it - so, again, in the eyes of the law they will never be the same. As long as the law doesn't recognise it as theft none of us can either, if we do then it will merely be an oppinion...

No, the principles behind "All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors." are pretty much universally accepted in the developed world. I don't see any shades of grey in this instance.

What do you mean by no to my answer? If you are a law student then you should know that Consumer Protection laws stands above all the other laws, other laws within that area has to be in accordance with the CPL otherwise they cannot exist. If you do any research I am sure you will see that it is discussed as a very grey area, especially in the area of the First Sales Doctrine where it is described as being in a state of legal confusion...

[Loversleaper]

That is correct, but you are not buying the game in legal terms. You are buying the right to use it, also known as a liscense. As far as the EULA/ToS documents go, I have not read more than the excerpts posted in this thread, but there is no legal reason why Steam would have to be mentioned. Even if you refuse to install Steam on your computer and as such are unable to play the game, that is you preventing yourself from playing it, not SI, Sega, Valve or anyone else.

I could see this point if there were any truly legitimate legal reasons to complain about Steam, but there simply aren't any.

I hope you were kidding when you said you were a law student, because the statement that we are not buying the game in legal terms is hard to grasp - I wouldn't want you as my lawyer, that is for sure . You don't consider that if you can't get the Steam to work so you can play the game is not a legitimate legal reason to complain about Steam, even though you have paid to play the game? Please explain...

[Kriss]

As usual people are going down the side track of trying to define piracy (actually totally irelevant) but for the record, I think of the people who crack it and put it up for free d/l as something different from the people who then use it (probably best described as unauthorised use)

There's another class too, those who sell cracked copies commercially (DVD & digital) that's big business in some parts of the world.

All this is totally irelevant though, because whatever you choose to call it the developer is entitled by law to try preventing it.

It's up to the developer to find an effective way that increases net sales and therefore profit (not sure why people keep inferring that's somehow devious it's what business's do)

If SI wanted to and thought it would be effective they could say that you can only have a copy of FM12 if you personally deliver two sacks of rice to SI Towers.

What they've done is what they do every year, they've tried a method which they hope will succeed to a level that achieves its objectives.

We can't and won't be given exact figures (not allowed for listed companies) but we'll know when they announce the DRM for FM13 if they achieved what they wanted.

Also for FM13 they'll decide whether or not any alternative methods have developed which offer the same (or better) results, i.e. all bets are on again.

Remember too that this is the first time it's been Steam only and if Civ V (and others) are anything to go by the problems people encounter rapidly diminish second time round, plus there's a year to resolve some of the problems people are now coming across all of which in theory means a less hassle free release next time for a greater proportion of users.

[fuzzrab]

I have to say like a few others i was dead against steam when it was first announced this would be required for me to play FM2012. This was mainly based on rumours and horror stories i had seen on these forums rather than my own opinion. after sorting out my prob below i know have no issues with it and am even considering getting the game via steam next year.

I decided like most of the people on here i decided i would give it a go. I bought the disc, do so every year as i prefer that, and tried to install it. the activation part was simple as. the actual problems installing of the game from disc was my only problem and the only critiscm i have.

I imagine i am like a lot of people who buy the disc and just put the disc in without readinjg the instructions and follow the prompts. Whoever because of steam being online the game was trying to install from steam and not the disc. it took me at least 3 hours to finally install the game. I had to do the full uninstall in the FAQ's and then re-install.

My critisicm is really that i dont think it was really explained beforehand (if it was and i didnt notice it i apologise) how you would have to go about installing from the disc. In future maybe have the game install from disc and then have to go online and activate it on steam. not sure if this is viable or not.

I have to say though that SI were as always very helpful to me when i posted in the activation sticky despite my rather long winded rant and rather silly accusations. So big thumbs up for that as i am sure most developers would just ignore my post.

[Kriss]

I imagine i am like a lot of people who buy the disc and just put the disc in without readinjg the instructions and follow the prompts. Whoever because of steam being online the game was trying to install from steam and not the disc. it took me at least 3 hours to finally install the game. I had to do the full uninstall in the FAQ's and then re-install.

My critisicm is really that i dont think it was really explained beforehand (if it was and i didnt notice it i apologise) how you would have to go about installing from the disc. In future maybe have the game install from disc and then have to go online and activate it on steam. not sure if this is viable or not.

They need to look at how the disc installation works methinks, it shouldn't be able to cause the problems it did imho.

[DaveinaCape]

I am just going to throw my worthless 2 pence in here.

I honestly don't see why people aren't buying this game because of steam. I've seen threads saying that they don't like it running in the background because it slows everything down, It always has issues that prevent games from working, it messes with your antivirus and so on and so forth.

If your system is honestly being slowed down by steam when your running a (lets be honest) mostly text based game then you need a new system...end of discussion as far as that is concerned.

If you think it's not launching properly because of steam, then again you probably need a new system or go to the tech support froums because valve are one of the best companies around, they actually care about their customers and those who use their service and will actually try to help you fix it because yes it should launch when you want it to so they will try help you.

As for the anti virus...just add steam as an exception to your firewall...done. Why people don't think of unblocking steam is beyond me.

(Just to add a note about steam not launching games, I have a friend who called me to try figure out why his FM wasn't launching...turns out he was just impatient as steam was running first time set-up -__-)

I think steam was the best thing to happen to FM. It stops piracy and help SI know really just how many people play the game, If you can't afford it then don't buy it. If you wanna "try before you buy" there is a demo for that, now the pirates have no excuse.

Good job SI on a brilliant game.

[Matej]

x42bn6 can you be my lawyer? dam you are good with words. about topic, SI can do whatever they want, but i dont agree that steam is only option. i dont agree with any product that requires internet connection.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I am just going to throw my worthless 2 pence in here.

I honestly don't see why people aren't buying this game because of steam. I've seen threads saying that they don't like it running in the background because it slows everything down, It always has issues that prevent games from working, it messes with your antivirus and so on and so forth.

If your system is honestly being slowed down by steam when your running a (lets be honest) mostly text based game then you need a new system...end of discussion as far as that is concerned.

If you think it's not launching properly because of steam, then again you probably need a new system or go to the tech support froums because valve are one of the best companies around, they actually care about their customers and those who use their service and will actually try to help you fix it because yes it should launch when you want it to so they will try help you.

As for the anti virus...just add steam as an exception to your firewall...done. Why people don't think of unblocking steam is beyond me.

(Just to add a note about steam not launching games, I have a friend who called me to try figure out why his FM wasn't launching...turns out he was just impatient as steam was running first time set-up -__-)

I think steam was the best thing to happen to FM. It stops piracy and help SI know really just how many people play the game, If you can't afford it then don't buy it. If you wanna "try before you buy" there is a demo for that, now the pirates have no excuse.

Good job SI on a brilliant game.

But you do see! :confused:

[gate]

I honestly don't see why people aren't buying this game because of steam.

Because Steam collect personal information from users. It raises privacy concern.

Google do that, too. But Google provide free service to exchange your personal information. And people can decide accept it or not by themselves. By pushing to stream only, SI leave no choice to FM players but provide personal information to steam.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

x42bn6 can you be my lawyer? dam you are good with words. about topic, SI can do whatever they want, but i dont agree that steam is only option. i dont agree with any product that requires internet connection.

Just be careful you don't employ him to present your opinion on these forums when he is near to his limit for posts allowed under the 'fair usage' policy here, because he will soon be 'politely encouraged' to shut up.

[Maystor]

Personally, I will not be buying the game, for the first time since 1999. Not only I had major issues with Steam in the past but I'm also against the whole idea of mandatory use of third party software to run the game. I have no choice but respect SI's decision to go this route but it really does make me wonder if the extra sales gained due to delayed piracy are going to make up for the loss of a portion of loyal customers, because I know quite a few CM/FM players with very similar feelings on this issue. I guess only time will tell. I for one am hoping they find a way to give people a choice AND combat piracy as much as it's possible for FM 2013.

[nessi]

I have already voiced my displeasure about the steam decision, haven't changed my mind since then and have nothing to add about that.

@usernamehere: I feel exactly the same, and I mean EXACTLY.

@x42bn6: man you always say what I'd like to say, just much better than I would

I'd like to express this thought: I really think "progress" is gradually making this game worse. "Old school" players are certainly some old dinosaurs with crappy pc that probably shouldn't play videogames anymore. In fact we don't play videogames, we only play FM and paradoxically this makes us a less appealing market even for SI

The "new" market, the "new" players have 100+ games library on steam, they chat on three different social networks while they play and have a dozen other windows open on their high performing pc. I don't judge you, just find this somewhat weird like I'm sure you find MORE weird how I play(ed) FM with my old offline pc at night instead of sleeping (and had to go to work in the morning)

I have the feeling that SI games is more interested in "you" - and it's probably the right choice for them. Therefore FM is gradually but steadily going towards the "new" generation of players, and they're making the game maybe not "easier" but more... "friendly"? Tactics are becoming less and less relevant, while simple "man management" is getting more powerful than ever. Had this feeling in FM11 and, from what I'm reading in this community, several other people feel things are getting even worse in FM12 with new featres like team mettings and conversation tones (haven't played FM12 myself though)

Can't blame steam for all this maybe. But I certainly feel it's part of the process. Some of you commenting here remind me of a great song by Pearl Jam. It's evolution baby!

[Lazaru5]

We have been through this already, software piracy is not theft and I'll tell you why. To steal means that the original is lost, software piracy means that there will be more of it - so, again, in the eyes of the law they will never be the same. As long as the law doesn't recognise it as theft none of us can either, if we do then it will merely be an oppinion..

What do you mean by no to my answer? If you are a law student then you should know that Consumer Protection laws stands above all the other laws, other laws within that area has to be in accordance with the CPL otherwise they cannot exist. If you do any research I am sure you will see that it is discussed as a very grey area, especially in the area of the First Sales Doctrine where it is described as being in a state of legal confusion...

The Law does recognise it, in fact the Government take the protection of your IP rights so seriously they have a dedicated website for it!

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/

Instead of believing all the rhetoric and hype, believe the LAW - IP Theft AKA Computer Piracy is Stealing... Is Theft!

What is IP infringement?

Infringement of IP rights usually takes place when a person who is not the owner exercises any of the exclusive rights without the permission of the owner.

What is IP crime?

Counterfeiters illegally use other people's trade marks, whereas piracy relates to the illegal use of copyright material.

Copyright applies to...

Copyright applies to all sorts of written and recorded materials from software and the internet to drawings and photography

It's all there, you just need to read it

[Loversleaper]

The Law does recognise it, in fact the Government take the protection of your IP rights so seriously they have a dedicated website for it!

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/

Instead of believing all the rhetoric and hype, believe the LAW - IP Theft AKA Computer Piracy is Stealing... Is Theft!

Please friend, as much as I agree with you that piracy shouldn't be allowed - I still have to disagree with you and the way you have displayed it. The site you showed says nothing about paragraphs within the law stating that you can punish people under the 'theft act'. If you are going to throw up proof I would advise you to get your facts straight.

Check out this site: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_Act_1968

If you notice, then nowhere is software piracy mentioned...

If it should be classified as theft or not is a whole other discussion, but sadly not up to any of us...

[Blaupunkt]

I hope you were kidding when you said you were a law student, because the statement that we are not buying the game in legal terms is hard to grasp - I wouldn't want you as my lawyer, that is for sure . You don't consider that if you can't get the Steam to work so you can play the game is not a legitimate legal reason to complain about Steam, even though you have paid to play the game? Please explain...

he is quite correct about only buying a licence to use the software, just like with any of the windows operating systems, you are not buying windows you are simply buying the licence to install and use the software, nothing more.

after reading through most of this thread the amount of rubbish, misinformation and assumptions thats being spouted by some forum members trying to make out XWY is fact when it clearly is not is staggering!

for the record i have no problems with steam or company's using it, i have been using it since about 2002/03 when valve brought it out for CS 1.6

[eple]

I have bought every incarnation of CM/FM since '93, and I probably will end up buying this one as well at some point.

The reason I'm not getting it now though is Steam. I do dislike having to install a 3rd party software to use something I've payed for, but the game is worth the annoyance. The main reason though is that I'm currently living in South Africa and being constantly connected to the internet to play the game and downloading patches via steam is much to expensive down here. To put it this way: If I were to download the game through Steam the data traffic would cost more then the price of the game.

With FM2011 I was able to download the patches at a internet cafe where I only pay for the time and not for the traffic, and then install it at my desktop with a flash stick.

I guess the market for FM in africa is really small compared to Europe, but this is why I feel alternatives should be available to users that doesn't have the fantastic internet speeds and prices availible in Europe. Back home I have a uncapped 30/15 mbps that cost me almost nothing. Here I pay more for 3gb data traffic then the game costs.

[Loversleaper]

after reading through most of this thread the amount of rubbish, misinformation and assumptions thats being spouted by some forum members trying to make out XWY is fact when it clearly is not is staggering!

If this was directed at me, then please bring up the points that I have misinformed and we will take a look at them together. It was a twist in words, if we did not buy the game in legal terms then there is not much option other than buying it in illegal terms. That is why the whole area is very grey, legally...

Here is a quote:

"The first-sale doctrine as it relates to computer software is an area of legal confusion. Some software publishers claim in their End User License Agreements (EULA) that their software is licensed, not sold, thus the first-sale doctrine does not apply to their works. Courts have contradicted. Bauer & Cie. v. O'Donnell and Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus are two related Supreme Court cases."

You don't have to take my word for it...

[ManUTactician247]

I have bought every incarnation of CM/FM since '93, and I probably will end up buying this one as well at some point.

The reason I'm not getting it now though is Steam. I do dislike having to install a 3rd party software to use something I've payed for, but the game is worth the annoyance. The main reason though is that I'm currently living in South Africa and being constantly connected to the internet to play the game and downloading patches via steam is much to expensive down here. To put it this way: If I were to download the game through Steam the data traffic would cost more then the price of the game.

With FM2011 I was able to download the patches at a internet cafe where I only pay for the time and not for the traffic, and then install it at my desktop with a flash stick.

I guess the market for FM in africa is really small compared to Europe, but this is why I feel alternatives should be available to users that doesn't have the fantastic internet speeds and prices availible in Europe. Back home I have a uncapped 30/15 mbps that cost me almost nothing. Here I pay more for 3gb data traffic then the game costs.

You don't have to be constantly online, you can go on offline mode and you won't need the internet, you have to get steam to remember your password though.

[eple]

You don't have to be constantly online, you can go on offline mode and you won't need the internet, you have to get steam to remember your password though.

That certainly makes it easier for me, but what about patches?