Constructive Criticism (Of Steam)

[Lazaru5]

Ok so I havent read the entire 5 page thread about this, but im just going to give my two cents on Steam.

Steam is a fantastic program and service, that is major factor in the survival of PC gaming. I believe a lot, but not all, of Steam "haters" are stuck in the past of when steam used to be all about Valve and wasnt very efficient. And them myths and first impressions of Steam have stuck and spread in groups of friends, etc.

Steam has changed, PC gaming has changed. We are now in a world where on the shelf retail PC purchasing is dead, and instead the shelves where once stood many a great title are now filled with pre-owned console games. The greatest advantage of PC gaming over console gaming is ever improving hardware in real time, adding so much versatility to the PC experience. Therefore digital distribution has become a much better way to advertise and sell PC games.

And that leads me back to Steam, which is undoubtedly the most efficient way to digitally distribute. Steam isnt about Valve anymore its about a PC gaming community brought together by the means of ultimately selling games from all corners of the games development world. One MASSIVE positive feature about the effects of Steam, is Indie gaming. Indie PC games have been a HUGE success via Steam, and provide a fantastic experience for Casual and Hardcore gamers alike. And now recently Free-to-play MMO games have hit Steam with great success aswell.

The pricing of Steam is another positive factor, with most prices being of great value, yes ok there will always be somewhere else where its cheaper, but the same could be said about everything you purchase in your life, its just that the accessibility of the internet highlight video gaming prices. There are some great deals at times during sales on steam and they introduce you to different styles of gaming, whether you are casual or hardcore. Also DLC and automatic updating has brought a new added sense of long lasting gameplay from 1 title.

Steam is a great program now, there was once a time where I didnt like it, but that has long gone. Yes alright at the end of the day it is all about money, but isnt everything in life? Im a hardcore gamer that has played PC games since I turn double figures in age and I have been unemployed for "a while" now and I firmly believe that Steam is incredible. Not only as an experience, but for pricing, and ultimately being a major player as one of the saviours of our beloved PC gaming.

That is all im going to say before I end up typing up 5 pages all by myself, I hope you have read this and I hope you agree too.

Thanks.

I'm sure many gamers would agree with you... I doubt that many FM'ers are gamers though...

Because of the fact that many FM'ers only play FM, something like Steam is seen as unnecessary, unwanted and mistrusted. And that's before anything else occurs...

[Lankylars]

So which way is this thread heading? Are we constructively criticizing Steam or SI's decision to use one activation/copy-protection method for FM12? Because those are two different debates. The pro Steam cloud has obviously voiced why, as an application on the computer, Steam offers many useful features to people desiring those features.

As far as using a solitary activation and copy protection method, the way SI has respond it seems as though Steam was the single way to ensure copy protection and to limit pirating - no other method of activation could match it. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, a defense is only as strong as its weakest link. And offering a method to play the gave outside of Steam's "locked-down" environment, if you will, was evaluated as simply not being strong enough. I don't interpret SI/SEGA's decision as one to intentionally limit consumer choice. They concluded it was simply the only adequate option that would provide their desired level of piracy protection. Phone activation, key code entry, etc wouldn't cut it. Perhaps if a suitable protection method appears in the future, SI/SEGA will use that alongside Steam.

[Sherdil]

I love Steam!

[thesandman]

Like I said I don't really see it as a necessary option for the PC games market. PC games are generally cheaper than console games and they come down in price a great deal in a shortish time. I think it's a very different market to console games.

Well, I don't think, I know you're completely wrong.

Check out how many PC games are for sale on eBay. Over 6,000 not new games in Australia.

There are around 49,000 games currently marked as PC games for sale on UK ebay. About 20,000 listed as new.

So, nearly 30,000 non new PC games currently for sale, just on ebay.

If I search for Football Manager in all non-new games, and remove EA as a producer (so there will be some that slip through that aren't FM) there are, right now, 472 games that come up in that search.

[Frank Abbondando]

So... what's wrong with steam?

[thesandman]

So which way is this thread heading? Are we constructively criticizing Steam or SI's decision to use one activation/copy-protection method for FM12? Because those are two different debates. The pro Steam cloud has obviously voiced why, as an application on the computer, Steam offers many useful features to people desiring those features.

As far as using a solitary activation and copy protection method, the way SI has respond it seems as though Steam was the single way to ensure copy protection and to limit pirating - no other method of activation could match it. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, a defense is only as strong as its weakest link. And offering a method to play the gave outside of Steam's "locked-down" environment, if you will, was evaluated as simply not being strong enough. I don't interpret SI/SEGA's decision as one to intentionally limit consumer choice. They concluded it was simply the only adequate option that would provide their desired level of piracy protection. Phone activation, key code entry, etc wouldn't cut it. Perhaps if a suitable protection method appears in the future, SI/SEGA will use that alongside Steam.

Personally my objection is not with Steam. It could be any similar service.

I play FM on work work machine. I travel for work, so it's great to take FM with me for time travelling, in airports, or late nights. I also play on this machine at home of course.

However, the IT guys are pretty good, I have FM on here no issues, but no way will they let me install Steam on my machine. So that's no FM12 for me. I could play on my wifes machine, but I don't take that with me when I travel, so there is little point to that.

I also alternate between new and second hand versions of the game. That option is now removed for me.

2 strikes really, so that's it for me. I was getting more and more 'out of love' with the game, and this is really the final nail.

I used to be a mad keen player, started with 93/94. Then I stopped after I thought SI made a real mess of CM4 and handled it badly. Slunk back and got into 08, then there was the 09 Steam fiasco. Now, I step back in with 11, and now this. That's the final nail in the coffin for me with Sega/SI/FM.

And before I read "Oh, you just can't handle steam Grandad", that has to be the lamest argument I've ever read. I work for a company the develops games software. I have been an IT manager. I can handle Steam technically.

I do support Segas/SI's efforts to prevent piracy. Piracy is getting totally out of hand. But I don't like the way it's being done. It has directly stopped me from playing this years version, and again, I think the second hand market is a huge part of this.

I would suggest customers being allowed to sell their authentication back to Steam/SI for, I don't konw, 25% of the full cost? And then Steam/SI reselling just those licences for let's say 35% of the full cost? Everybody wins that way. (let's say after 8 or 9 months of going live).

[quad]

So... what's wrong with steam?

Read the thread.

[hugo_rune]

Personally my objection is not with Steam. It could be any similar service.

I play FM on work work machine. I travel for work, so it's great to take FM with me for time travelling, in airports, or late nights. I also play on this machine at home of course.

However, the IT guys are pretty good, I have FM on here no issues, but no way will they let me install Steam on my machine. So that's no FM12 for me. I could play on my wifes machine, but I don't take that with me when I travel, so there is little point to that.

Well if you can install FM, they obviously don't have program-level protection so you can install Steam as well, but you can't get it through the work firewall. If you're on a work laptop, take it home, connect it to your home network, and connect to Steam, and set to 'start in offline mode'. That way, if you leave it in that mode, neither Steam nor FM will need to connect to the internet and you can play at work as much as you want. If you're on a work desktop - and your IT guys are really as good as you say - and you really are allowed to play FM at work - then surely they'll open the port for you, as long as you need to do this Maybe you need to find a way to do the "I'll scratch your back you scratch mine" thing. Honestly, though, if they won't do this, you pretty much have to respect their reasoning - being able to play games that require internet activation at work strikes me as something that should be a privilege, not a right.

[Trikstaa]

YO! If you like the game, you'll use Steam. I don't understand why people are going mental about Steam! If you have a computer that can run FM2012, you have one that can run Steam. Let the company do as it wishes if it makes the game a better product!

[pigfacemonkeyman]

I think this is getting rather off track from the topic at hand. Whether computer games or art has little bearing on whether FM should be on Steam. It all started with yet another attempt to plumb the depths to find a reason why Steam is wrong.

PC games aren't usually and item that is traded on anyway, simply for the main fact that there is often a code that goes with the game and once it's used then it can not be transferred. FM is often under the same requirement so I hardly think it is worthwhile to start discussing the ability or inability to sell games on.

Someone needs to find a really strongly merited reason why Steam is so bad if I'm going to accept they're not just misunderstanding and failing to give the platform any chance, and no one has. It's all clutching at straws.

I have never used 'Steam', so maybe you could help me. What, precisely, is 'Steam' doing that causes so many computer safety applications to "cause issues with Steam"?

[bigdunk]

I have never used 'Steam', so maybe you could help me. What, precisely, is 'Steam' doing that causes so many computer safety applications to "cause issues with Steam"?

It's downloading executable files from the internet and running them. That's exactly the sort of behaviour that's going to trigger any security software, but it's also Steams primary purpose. Any piece of software that does this is always going to have issues with AV and Firewall software, that's just the way it is.

[Jamie Cortez]

Perhaps SI will look into releasing 1 Version of the game next year, and distribute it through the Onlive service now available in the UK

http://www.onlive.co.uk/?

Problem solved!

[Nijuu L]

Look, this is coming from the perspective of someone who has played (and collected many) games over the years (i'm 42). I much much prefer the old manual and cd and serial based checks past games (whatever game) had. More convenience for the user, and you dont feel as if your renting the service like you do with Steam. No matter what anyone says, they could shut up shop and your games are gone on the spot. I DO have a steam account (over 100 games) and while i do like the service (as i do Origin - lets face it, Steam IS pretty much a monopoly atm - digital downloads does need more competition), i am always wary that if my account gets hacked (god forbid) or something else happens to it, i will lose $$$$$ in games forever. Its one reason why im unhappy at SI using steam as the preferred DRM (YES it still is DRM no matter which way you look at it). I had no issues with the previous once off activations with the previous methods used with SI FM games. Not everyone has access to the internet you know.Especially if your travelling around and while you can play offline, its only temporary (someone told me the credentials need to be revalidated by going online within 6-9 months, cant remember exactly).My 2 cents worth.

[bigturnip]

"Preparing to launch Football Manager 2012..." How long do you need to prepare for Steam?

[bigturnip]

SI using steam as the preferred DRM

It's not just the preferred DRM, it's the only DRM, and that's the real problem here, I don't think anybody minds having Steam as an option or the preferred DRM, they just want another way to activate the game.

[hugo_rune]

It's not just the preferred DRM, it's the only DRM, and that's the real problem here, I don't think anybody minds having Steam as an option or the preferred DRM, they just want another way to activate the game.

The thinking was the more ways there were to unlock the game, the quicker pirates would be able to hack it.

The solution was to go with a single method that balanced strong security with relative convenience - and it's worked, because the game hasn't been cracked yet. In time will it be? Maybe but I suspect the big brains in the underground will move on to relatively easier software targets, if they haven't already. To the pirates who are driven by the challenge, I wish them endless hours of frustration and questioning of self.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

The thinking was the more ways there were to unlock the game, the quicker pirates would be able to hack it.

The solution was to go with a single method that balanced strong security with relative convenience - and it's worked, because the game hasn't been cracked yet. In time will it be? Maybe but I suspect the big brains in the underground will move on to relatively easier software targets, if they haven't already. To the pirates who are driven by the challenge, I wish them endless hours of frustration and questioning of self.

And to the sufferers of "relative convenience"?

[hugo_rune]

And to the sufferers of "relative convenience"?

Blame the pirates, not SEGA and SI - they have a right to protect their investment. Were they forced into this, no. But publishers have to be smart, piracy isn't going to go away, if the tools are there to prevent it or make it as close to prohibitively difficult as possible, they should be used. That enables them to get more profits, which encourages further investment and possible expansion. That's a good thing for the true customers.

edit - and honestly, if your computer technology meets current standards and exceeds the minimum requirements of Football Manager, there is no way that Steam should be a problem for you, unless as noted in my prior post, which I'm not going to go into further for obvious reasons.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

Blame the pirates, not SEGA and SI - they have a right to protect their investment. Were they forced into this, no. But publishers have to be smart, piracy isn't going to go away, if the tools are there to prevent it or make it as close to prohibitively difficult as possible, they should be used. That enables them to get more profits, which encourages further investment and possible expansion. That's a good thing for the true customers.

edit - and honestly, if your computer technology meets current standards and exceeds the minimum requirements of Football Manager, there is no way that Steam should be a problem for you, unless as noted in my prior post, which I'm not going to go into further for obvious reasons.

What do you mean by "true customers"? and can only people who are not inconvenienced be "true customers"?

Well if you can install FM, they obviously don't have program-level protection so you can install Steam as well, but you can't get it through the work firewall. If you're on a work laptop, take it home, connect it to your home network, and connect to Steam, and set to 'start in offline mode'. That way, if you leave it in that mode, neither Steam nor FM will need to connect to the internet and you can play at work as much as you want. If you're on a work desktop - and your IT guys are really as good as you say - and you really are allowed to play FM at work - then surely they'll open the port for you, as long as you need to do this Maybe you need to find a way to do the "I'll scratch your back you scratch mine" thing. Honestly, though, if they won't do this, you pretty much have to respect their reasoning - being able to play games that require internet activation at work strikes me as something that should be a privilege, not a right.

I don't know your 'obvious reasons' for not going into this post, but mine are that you should read the post that you responded to properly, (#506 I believe) because there is no mention of him playing the game at work.

[Jamie Cortez]

Nope just that he plays it on a works machine, and is restricted by his works IT dept.

He also states he plays it on said machine during late nights, being a work machine i think Hugo is assuming he means on his late nights at work, which is a pretty fair assumption in my book

[magic_benja]

I am as many other people not too happy by having Steam stopped down in my throat. I am generally not happy with 3rd party software. It's like buying a laptop. The first thing I do is un-install all the crap-ware that is on the laptop. Just as I would with Steam.

I was happy that I actually could chose if I wanted to use Steam or not with FM 2011 and had hoped it would be the same with FM 2012 - but no :'(

Had I known this I would absolutely not have bought the game and I would continue playing with FM 2011. It's a shame because I have bought the game every year when they came out with a new release and also when it was called CM. But I guess all good things come to an end.

FM 2012 will be the last game I buy in the FM series unless SEGA change their policy and actually let the users decide if they want to install crap-ware or not.

I thank the FM-team for some great games...

Cheers,

Benjamin

[wild2475]

Ok so as the OP I wanted to summarise as best as I could the main issues that seem to be associated not just with Steam (someone changed the title of the thread) but with Sega/SI's decision making process and their justifications of it:

1. Piracy - In the official Q&A Sega stated quite simply that the decision to go to Steam was only due to stopping or disrupting piracy.

However as time has gone on it is quite apparent via the posts from SI employees that there are other reasons for this decision that are not piracy related at all. Whether it be the information Steam passes onto them about your PC, your gameplay, etc or whether it be some other financial reason.

However if you just stick with piracy you then have to ask what is the cost of piracy to the company as not all pirates would buy the game?

By tackling the pirates they are also affecting the loyal fan base many of whom have been with the series since the beginning and many of whom feel as if they are being disadvantaged as much as the pirates if not more.

Ultimately it would be interesting to see how the sales of the game go and whether profits actually increase at all from soley the piracy angle.

2. Security of Steam - the T&C's of Steam state quite categorically that they cannot guarantee the service will be virus free, in operation, etc.

Now this may just be the usual legalities of T&C's but it is quite worrying that if they were hacked, they went bankrupt, they had serious technical issues, etc you have no right of recompense and no rights against them.

This is fine if it is your choice to use their system and hope that none of the above happens but when it is the only option given by Sega/SI it's not so much of a choice.

Further to the security Steam itself lists a whole range of security/anti-virus products that may cause issues with their system. This then makes you think why? Because security products are designed to only sniff out programs or file commands that are potentially invasive of your system and could therefore be a malicious attempt to extract information from your PC or transfer data to your PC that is malicious.

On the technical threads SI have been saying for a while that you can just allow Steam to be in the 'approved list' on your anti-virus program which would normally allow the game and Steam to then not interfere with your security product.

However as Steam categorically state that they cannot guarantee that the system will be virus free then it still could prove to be dangerous to allow this.

The Steam T&C's also categorically state that they can take information from you and your gameplay/system as part of you signing up for an account with them. Many people again dislike this as it is through no choice that an account has to be created and through no choice that they have to agree to the T&C's (unless you don't want to play the game).

Steam also doesn't run fantastically well on all PC's and the way the game/updates are deployed via Steam can cause crashes (and has).

3. No Choice - Another big issue has been that Sega/SI have stated it is this or nothing and if the decision stops you playing the game then tough luck.

Many people have limited internet connectivity/no internet/dislike Steam/Steam doesn't work well on their system, etc and these people seem to have been marginalised as not a big enough market to really worry about.

However as FM is played by many old school gamers and the market share of FM appears to be quite different to many other games market shares it does seem to be a very poor PR exercise from Sega/SI giving no other alternative.

4. Better Game Prospects - We're told that Steam will generate more money for the series and this in turn will generate a better game as bigger budgets will be allowed.

Will be interesting to see how profits actually fare especially in next 1 or 2 years or could this just be bigger profits for the fat cats but same investment in the game, time will tell.

5. T&C's - The terms and conditions is a big thing for me in relation to Steam.

As we have seen they give you no guarantees on stability of service, security of service, etc.

The biggest issue I have noticed as per previous posts (and am still awaiting to see if Steam will clarify this officially) is that the game is suitable for ages 3+, but to have a Steam account you have to be 13+.

The T&C's state your account (over 13 year old) cannot be used by anyone else. So how do under 13's play the game without breaking the Steam agreement?

There have been a variety of posts on this but the T&C's are all that matter as what they say goes. Hopefully Steam can clarify this point and if they do I will re-post.

6. 2nd Hand Market - Steam destroys this, not a big issue for me but does seem to have affected many.

So many people like Steam, many people dis-like it, and some begrudgingly accept it.

Each to their own but Steam is also there to make money and they have a near monopoly in their particular market which is never good for the industry or the consumer.

Time will tell if the decision was correct.

[Jamie Cortez]

Well written, i cant agree with some of what your saying, as i don't mind steam at all, but its about the most constructive post here.

I know your summarising whats already been posted, but i think point number 2. could use more clarification, as everything you download carries the same viral risk even down to the very basics of drivers for your computers hardware, virus software itself is hardly a convincing argument, every companies software reports thousands infact tens of thousands of false positives every year that have to be weeded out, as come up before what does anti virus software actually do while its scanning your files,folders that you open, what links you click on, what web pages you visit.

Like i say well written

[Blaupunkt]

I have never used 'Steam', so maybe you could help me. What, precisely, is 'Steam' doing that causes so many computer safety applications to "cause issues with Steam"?

i have used steam since it first came out, i can honestly say i have never had any issues with anti virus programs etc, i have used a wide variety of paid for and free ones over the years and never had problems, i currently use avist! free edition along with Malwarebytes, i do not set up these programs in any particular way just install and leave them running in the background, having played various clans in various games over the years with lots of people who also use steam i can say none of these people have had or do have any of these problems.

you say you have never used steam, so as i said earlier in this thread, most of the anti steam people are spreading rubbish and scaremongering people who have never used it into believing things that are not true, the vast majority of people who use steam do not have any of these problems, if they did the steam forums would be full of such issues.

most problems are end user errors and not the app its self, i point you to this thread on the steam forums - make sure to read it to the very end. >>click me<<

as for steam is for hardcore gamers only argument, again i say rubbish, i know 3 or 4 people who only really play FM on their PC's and they have got FM 12 and have no issues with steam.

[magic_benja]

Just wanted to let everybody know I found this on the web and it worked for me:

Installing the game from Disc:

If you have the disc version of the game, please first follow the steps below to activate the game on Steam:

- Open up Steam

- Go to +ADD A GAME at the bottom-left of the window

- Then select Activate a product on Steam

- Enter your Activation Code found on the back of the manual.

Now Steam will be trying to download the full game. Please follow the instructions below:

1. Click on 'Games' followed by 'View Games Library'.

2. Right click on the game and click 'Delete local content'. The non-installed information will appear next to the game.

3. Close Steam (File, Exit).

* Ensure STEAM is not shown near Notification Area (system clock). If STEAM is shown in the Notification Area right click on the STEAM icon and select exit.

4. Insert Disk 1 into your DVD drive and select Autorun.

5. From the Windows Desktop, click on the Start Button, (XP) click Run (Vista/7) type Run into the Start Search box and choose Run from the list.

In the window Run box enter the following:

E:\Setup.exe

- If your CD/DVD drive is not E: please change it accordingly.

6. Press OK, Steam should now start the installation from the disk.

7. At the end of the installation process, Steam will connect on Internet to download a small update.

[thesandman]

Nope just that he plays it on a works machine, and is restricted by his works IT dept. He also states he plays it on said machine during late nights, being a work machine i think Hugo is assuming he means on his late nights at work, which is a pretty fair assumption in my book

If you guys read my whole post you'd also see I said I play in airports, when I travel and at home.

Believe me, I don't lug around a desktop with me. The guys let me have FM. They do regular software audits on our machines.

They don't mind FM or anything that's a simple 'offline' game or program. They are all gamers, when I mentioned Steam they just said "no chance mate". They don't want anything that "phones home". Yes, I could play offline. But how offline is offline? And they'd either have to put in work time to lock my machine down, or trust me. A good IT dept never runs on trust. As for whoever said its a privilege to play at work? Thanks for your moralizing, but I don't play when I'm in the office. Reread my post if you have to.

[hugo_rune]

They don't mind FM or anything that's a simple 'offline' game or program. They are all gamers, when I mentioned Steam they just said "no chance mate". They don't want anything that "phones home". Yes, I could play offline. But how offline is offline? And they'd either have to put in work time to lock my machine down, or trust me. A good IT dept never runs on trust. As for whoever said its a privilege to play at work? Thanks for your moralizing, but I don't play when I'm in the office. Reread my post if you have to.

Steam only phones home if you're playing in online mode, which you only have to do once, the first time, or when you choose to go online and patch, so they either don't understand how it works or they're being a little unreasonable. That said, I'm not moralising, just trying to work you through this and help you see it from the point of view of your work and of Sega. Sega and Steam have a responsibility to help you get the game working on a computer that you own, through an internet connection that you own, that meets the system requirements and has working software and hardware. When your connection and your hardware is owned and restricted by a third party, the responsibility of Sega and Steam ends, and you need to either negotiate with the third party - your work in this case - to either allow you to play, or accept that they own the connection and, if you want to play FM 2012, acquire hardware and a connection of your own, if you don't already have it.

This to me is quite reasonable common sense and I'm a little bemused that you would criticise me for trying to help you understand the nature of the issue you face, and even bermused that someone else is so bitter about what I said that they dragged it into this thread. Good luck to you, and I mean that genuinely.

To those who are evidently pissed off that they have to pay for something - that cost other people millions to develop - that they've always acquired for free in the past - hah! I hope every other game developer has similar success in making their games pirate-proof I'm going to enjoy my game, that I happily paid for, as I have always paid for my games in the past. Welcome to the honest world, people. You don't have to whinge about it so much.

[milnerpoint]

Ive wondered in the past few weeks how many pirates have actually signed up to the forums just to moan because steam has stopped them stealing the game so far, im not for one second saying everyone in this thread or the forums against steam are in that group, but i bet there are quite a few who have signed up to try and add momentum to the anti steam brigade.

[lukekarts]

I've only read the first page of this topic, but feeling compelled to reply. In amongst the dislike of Steam, the debate on piracy; SI's intentions, I think I've got slightly confused about the point of this topic.

Steam is a great piece of software though. I was sceptical about 8 or 9 years ago, when I purchased Half Life 2, and had to install Steam. At the time, an obtrusive piece of software with a limited library that was forced upon me.

Now, it's a great tool. Bargains galore, a great way of managing my games (I have Steam on my MacBook Air and PC and installing between the two is easy), some additional benefits such as save game backups, some fantastic offers - such as the Halloween sale, the summer sale etc.

As a system resource user, on both my PC (C2D, 8GB, 335M) and MBA (i5, 4GB, Intel HD) it works seamlessly in the background, I've never had any issues over the 8 or so years.

Steam's support is great, and Valve's intentions are good - ethically, the company has good principles and are well respected.

Steam isn't without its faults, but it's no more intrusive than something like XBL or PSN, simply log in and load.

People unwilling to accomodate Steam are missing out; and quite frankly stuck behind the times when it comes to PC gaming.

[hugo_rune]

And can I just say... for anyone who honestly has always bought the games they play including of course FM, and genuinely does feel inconvenienced about Steam, and thinks I'm unfairly suggesting that they're pirates, I apologise. However, I'm not so naive that I don't know (as SEGA also know) that pirates are absolutely ****ing fuming about what has been done, and they are going to go to every effort to try and create the appearance of a backlash - because if other software vendors learn from SI's success and replicate it - and more to the point, if other publishers step up their security because they do not want to be left out again - then pirates are going to be far less special - less 'elite' (hah) than they were in the past. That's what they are really afraid of. And I think they are doing their utmost to create an impression of an unhappy customer base. I would suggest that this is something that is not difficult to create on the internet with a bit of deception, and pirates are not known for their honesty. I also think SEGA and SI know this, and I suspect that they are very comfortable that this is not the actual case - they have ways of getting a more accurate understanding than the buzzings on message boards. For that reason, I believe that some people in this thread are not being fair dinkum. Not all of you - some of you are genuine customers and have genuine complaints that the software is not working for them, and I hope that you can resolve them - but understand it's ultimately for everyone's benefit than they did this. Unfortunately the need to have an extra application on the computer has ruled some out who are playing on 'protected' systems owned by third parties, but that's just the way of it and SI/SEGA can't cater for those situations.

[Äktsjon Männ]

People unwilling to accomodate Steam are missing out; and quite frankly stuck behind the times when it comes to PC gaming.

Some are willing to accomodate it but don't want it forced on them, that's what some people are failing to grasp. Personally I'm not willing to give up playing FM because of it. I suppose I should on principle but I guess my principles arent strong enough and it's too good of a game. I want it and I'm not willing to miss out on it. But what else would I exactly be missing out on if I chose to not use Steam? I don't play any other games (except an odd venture into one of the older GTA games or a nostalgia trip with some of the classics - all of which I own anyway) so the bargains mean zero to me. I don't give a monkey's about Valve's good intentions, their software is of no use to me except from enabling me to play the only game I want to play. Which I'd much prefer to be playable without it.

Basically I get it, people like Steam and find it useful for them. That's fine. But don't come telling me how I should feel about it because so far I've yet to find one useful purpose for it other than the fact that it lets me play FM.

[wild2475]

And can I just say... for anyone who honestly has always bought the games they play including of course FM, and genuinely does feel inconvenienced about Steam, and thinks I'm unfairly suggesting that they're pirates, I apologise. However, I'm not so naive that I don't know (as SEGA also know) that pirates are absolutely ****ing fuming about what has been done, and they are going to go to every effort to try and create the appearance of a backlash - because if other software vendors learn from SI's success and replicate it - and more to the point, if other publishers step up their security because they do not want to be left out again - then pirates are going to be far less special - less 'elite' (hah) than they were in the past. That's what they are really afraid of. And I think they are doing their utmost to create an impression of an unhappy customer base. I would suggest that this is something that is not difficult to create on the internet with a bit of deception, and pirates are not known for their honesty. I also think SEGA and SI know this, and I suspect that they are very comfortable that this is not the actual case - they have ways of getting a more accurate understanding than the buzzings on message boards. For that reason, I believe that some people in this thread are not being fair dinkum. Not all of you - some of you are genuine customers and have genuine complaints that the software is not working for them, and I hope that you can resolve them - but understand it's ultimately for everyone's benefit than they did this. Unfortunately the need to have an extra application on the computer has ruled some out who are playing on 'protected' systems owned by third parties, but that's just the way of it and SI/SEGA can't cater for those situations.

Thats also like saying people praising Steam are are actually Steam employees in disguise or SI/Sega employees in disguise!

The only thing we can do is acknowledge the points raised, try to understand them, and realise that this decision is good for some and not so good for others.

When you look at the points raised it is obvious some of them are very valid.

[hugo_rune]

Thats also like saying people praising Steam are are actually Steam employees in disguise or SI/Sega employees in disguise!

There are far more pirates out there than there are Steam/SI employees, and as a group they have very few scruples about cheating, stealing, and the general art of deception. Steam and SI employees, on the other hand, have any reason to hide who they are - and they are not the only beneficaries, customers also benefit from SEGA getting more revenue that they can reinvest into SI's future developments.

[Lazaru5]

There are far more pirates out there than there are Steam/SI employees, and as a group they have very few scruples about cheating, stealing, and the general art of deception. Steam and SI employees, on the other hand, have any reason to hide who they are - and they are not the only beneficaries, customers also benefit from SEGA getting more revenue that they can reinvest into SI's future developments.

hugo, you're going the right way to get this thread closed. Suggesting any of the regular posters on these forums who have genuine concerns or problems *may* be pirates because they "have very few scruples about cheating, stealing, and the general art of deception", which is essentially what you're suggesting is plain wrong.

There are a great many of forum regulars who are just as unhappy about the introduction of the Steam-only activation route, despite being able to acknowledge it's apparent success in the battle against piracy. Whilst we don't like the former, we most certainly do applaud the latter, so to suggest that we're pirates is, frankly, almost offensive.

Just because we're unhappy about the decision does not make us pirates, and I think you'll find that a great many of those who have joined the forum to complain have bought the game without realising the need for Steam and therefore unhappy or have bought the game, installed Steam and are having genuine issues... I don't think they're pirates either, do you?

[W_Beattie]

Steam should NOT be forced upon us.

My account has been 'hijacked' meaning I can't play something I paid £30 for and have in my posession. It's a complete farce.

[hugo_rune]

hugo, you're going the right way to get this thread closed. Suggesting any of the regular posters on these forums who have genuine concerns or problems *may* be pirates because they "have very few scruples about cheating, stealing, and the general art of deception", which is essentially what you're suggesting is plain wrong.

As I said, I'm not saying everybody is in this category and I'm not accusing any one specific person. But you have to be very gullible to think that everybody complaining is genuine, or that pirates would not come and complain in the pretense of being legitimate users. That's just common sense. The genuine issues are there, although in many cases that I have seen, they are simply not the responsibility of Sega, SI, or Steam to fix, because the user does not presently meet the requirements of the game (such as having an internet connection and hardware that they have control over), and there are alternatives available that are within the users' control.

The simple fact is that the overhead of Steam is now irrelevant on any healthy computer that is within a few years old, and a functional Internet connection is normal for any gamer playing on their own systems. SI and SEGA are quite reasonable to assume that all their customers have access, or can have access, to this, and it is not unreasonable for them to ask us to install Steam as a part of the process of protecting the software.

[CoachFlu]

The genuine issues are there, although in many cases that I have seen, they are simply not the responsibility of Sega, SI, or Steam to fix, because the user does not presently meet the requirements of the game (such as having an internet connection and hardware that they have control over), and there are alternatives available that are within the users' control.

A genuine issue which is most certainly the responsibility of SI/Sega is that many of us simply don't like being forced into one specific direction.

I've had a steam account for a few years and never had any significant technical issues with it. I've used it for a handful of games. Some because I didn't notice it was necessary before I got home with the DVD, others because the desire to play the game outweighed my objections. FM12 falls in the latter category, so I put up with it. For now. But it's most certainly a big fat mark in the minus column.

Being forced down one path is never a good thing for the customer. Even if you love Steam, the lack of available alternatives should not be something to take so lightly.

[W_Beattie]

Is it now impossible to play FM without the internet? Thinking in terms of taking it to work etc..

[Lawlore]

(going back a few posts to #466)

The fact that people are claiming one of the updates came down despite them turning off automatic updates, the fact that people's games are not starting until updates are downloaded, and (my own bugbear) the fact that this is happening without any forewarning or in-game/in-client documentation suggests that things are not right yet.

This is where I think one of the problems lies for those that are having problems, because turning off the automatic updates relates to the game itself - and not necessarily to the updating of the Steam client. The question is, if Steam can try to update itself due to detected internet connection even though you have it in offline mode, it could explain some things. Neil Brock said that he was going to check this and get back to us, unfortunately I haven't been able to find his response anywhere as of yet...

Nor I, and I think this does need an answer, because for me this is one of the biggies that is validating concerns about FM going Steam-only. An official word would be extremely useful.

Although this thread is also a concern- I'd be interested to see the outcome of that. The immediate one is that a guy can't play a game he's bought because of Steam. I can't see how anyone could disagree with that statement- if the game were not running through Steam, that would not have happened.

And, whilst I've no great experience of the hacking/cracking community, part of me can't help but wonder if a game this difficult to crack is only attracting more people to try and do so, given that there'd be major kudos within that community for finally doing so. I don't know- it may not work like that, it may be that they get sick of trying, throw their hands up and move onto attacking other stuff.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

i have used steam since it first came out, i can honestly say i have never had any issues with anti virus programs etc, i have used a wide variety of paid for and free ones over the years and never had problems, i currently use avist! free edition along with Malwarebytes, i do not set up these programs in any particular way just install and leave them running in the background, having played various clans in various games over the years with lots of people who also use steam i can say none of these people have had or do have any of these problems.

you say you have never used steam, so as i said earlier in this thread, most of the anti steam people are spreading rubbish and scaremongering people who have never used it into believing things that are not true, the vast majority of people who use steam do not have any of these problems, if they did the steam forums would be full of such issues.

most problems are end user errors and not the app its self, i point you to this thread on the steam forums - make sure to read it to the very end. >>click me<<

as for steam is for hardcore gamers only argument, again i say rubbish, i know 3 or 4 people who only really play FM on their PC's and they have got FM 12 and have no issues with steam.

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9828-SFLZ-9289

[Diego Birtles]

Steam hasn't even automatically installed 12.0.3 for me and there's no option to have it done manually as fas as I'm aware.

[anagain]

Well, I don't think, I know you're completely wrong.

Check out how many PC games are for sale on eBay. Over 6,000 not new games in Australia.

There are around 49,000 games currently marked as PC games for sale on UK ebay. About 20,000 listed as new.

So, nearly 30,000 non new PC games currently for sale, just on ebay.

If I search for Football Manager in all non-new games, and remove EA as a producer (so there will be some that slip through that aren't FM) there are, right now, 472 games that come up in that search.

Ok, I'll accept that there are some PC games second hand, but you can't deny that many are problematic due to used codes and DRM. I'd be reluctant to buy a used copy of a game for fear of it not working because the code is used.

As for the copies of FM12 on Ebay, I looked. The ones that stated new and sealed where not much less than anywhere else and had gotten bids. Only one of the ones that I saw not marked new had any bids, and that started at 99p. So FM12 is hardly a goer on Ebay when used.

[anagain]

I have never used 'Steam', so maybe you could help me. What, precisely, is 'Steam' doing that causes so many computer safety applications to "cause issues with Steam"?

Can't say as I have any issues...or have ever had any worries.

[Äktsjon Männ]

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9828-SFLZ-9289

So this sublime piece of software that everyone should embrace is partly incompatible with ATI driver software, Skype and some HDD managment tools among other things.

[anagain]

Ok so as the OP I wanted to summarise as best as I could the main issues that seem to be associated not just with Steam (someone changed the title of the thread) but with Sega/SI's decision making process and their justifications of it:

1. Piracy - In the official Q&A Sega stated quite simply that the decision to go to Steam was only due to stopping or disrupting piracy.

However as time has gone on it is quite apparent via the posts from SI employees that there are other reasons for this decision that are not piracy related at all. Whether it be the information Steam passes onto them about your PC, your gameplay, etc or whether it be some other financial reason.

However if you just stick with piracy you then have to ask what is the cost of piracy to the company as not all pirates would buy the game?

By tackling the pirates they are also affecting the loyal fan base many of whom have been with the series since the beginning and many of whom feel as if they are being disadvantaged as much as the pirates if not more.

Ultimately it would be interesting to see how the sales of the game go and whether profits actually increase at all from soley the piracy angle.

2. Security of Steam - the T&C's of Steam state quite categorically that they cannot guarantee the service will be virus free, in operation, etc.

Now this may just be the usual legalities of T&C's but it is quite worrying that if they were hacked, they went bankrupt, they had serious technical issues, etc you have no right of recompense and no rights against them.

This is fine if it is your choice to use their system and hope that none of the above happens but when it is the only option given by Sega/SI it's not so much of a choice.

Further to the security Steam itself lists a whole range of security/anti-virus products that may cause issues with their system. This then makes you think why? Because security products are designed to only sniff out programs or file commands that are potentially invasive of your system and could therefore be a malicious attempt to extract information from your PC or transfer data to your PC that is malicious.

On the technical threads SI have been saying for a while that you can just allow Steam to be in the 'approved list' on your anti-virus program which would normally allow the game and Steam to then not interfere with your security product.

However as Steam categorically state that they cannot guarantee that the system will be virus free then it still could prove to be dangerous to allow this.

The Steam T&C's also categorically state that they can take information from you and your gameplay/system as part of you signing up for an account with them. Many people again dislike this as it is through no choice that an account has to be created and through no choice that they have to agree to the T&C's (unless you don't want to play the game).

Steam also doesn't run fantastically well on all PC's and the way the game/updates are deployed via Steam can cause crashes (and has).

3. No Choice - Another big issue has been that Sega/SI have stated it is this or nothing and if the decision stops you playing the game then tough luck.

Many people have limited internet connectivity/no internet/dislike Steam/Steam doesn't work well on their system, etc and these people seem to have been marginalised as not a big enough market to really worry about.

However as FM is played by many old school gamers and the market share of FM appears to be quite different to many other games market shares it does seem to be a very poor PR exercise from Sega/SI giving no other alternative.

4. Better Game Prospects - We're told that Steam will generate more money for the series and this in turn will generate a better game as bigger budgets will be allowed.

Will be interesting to see how profits actually fare especially in next 1 or 2 years or could this just be bigger profits for the fat cats but same investment in the game, time will tell.

5. T&C's - The terms and conditions is a big thing for me in relation to Steam.

As we have seen they give you no guarantees on stability of service, security of service, etc.

The biggest issue I have noticed as per previous posts (and am still awaiting to see if Steam will clarify this officially) is that the game is suitable for ages 3+, but to have a Steam account you have to be 13+.

The T&C's state your account (over 13 year old) cannot be used by anyone else. So how do under 13's play the game without breaking the Steam agreement?

There have been a variety of posts on this but the T&C's are all that matter as what they say goes. Hopefully Steam can clarify this point and if they do I will re-post.

6. 2nd Hand Market - Steam destroys this, not a big issue for me but does seem to have affected many.

So many people like Steam, many people dis-like it, and some begrudgingly accept it.

Each to their own but Steam is also there to make money and they have a near monopoly in their particular market which is never good for the industry or the consumer.

Time will tell if the decision was correct.

Can I just clear up for, everyone's sake, that this list of points is the view of wild2475 and not the god given truth. It's the paranoid view of someone who doesn't like Steam and will say whatever they can in the hope it isn't used for FM again.

Steam have to say they are not responsible for any virus infection. It's a commonly used term and just safeguards them from legal action. It's highly unlikely you will get a virus from Steam. If you went to a dodgy site linked from the Steam community, then possibly, but that's not Steam.

That is just the biggest misnomer from wild's post.

[Blaupunkt]

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=9828-SFLZ-9289

i think you will find that virus, ad-ware and spy-ware effect all programs not just steam, software firewalls alert you that program X is trying to access the internet and gives you the option to allow it on a permanent basis if you wish, a lot of modern routers will self configure to allow software access, if not there are loads of sites that hold your hand and guide you through how to do it.

as for the list of programs, well i have used some not all and as i said never had a problem, it says "have been known" not "will cause problems" there is a difference, and im sure a lot of those programs "might" effect other software also, if someone does have an issue and i'm sure some will then your link only goes to show that there is help out there for these people.

[anagain]

Is it now impossible to play FM without the internet? Thinking in terms of taking it to work etc..

The internet is so readily available in this day and ages, and even on the move. Does that argument really cut it any more?

[Äktsjon Männ]

The internet is so readily available in this day and ages, and even on the move. Does that argument really cut it any more?

Is it an argument? The guy's just asking. The answer is no, it's not impossible to play without internet available. It is impossible to activate it without internet though. So if you can't use steam on your work computer (if that's what you plan to play it on) and/or go online to log into it then you won't be able to play on that machine. If you're thinking about taking your laptop to work with FM on it then you most certainly can play it without internet available as long as you have set steam to work offline.

[SpooneyDM]

All this back and forth discussion is just repeating and going over the exact same points over and over again.

At the end of the day, If you want to play the game so badly, you will buy it and play it no matter what, whether it comes via Steam or not, all of this is much to do about nothing.

So not to sound rude but there is no other way to say this, but pipe down everyone and play some FM, because its awesome.

/end thread

[GuitarMan]

Steam hasn't even automatically installed 12.0.3 for me and there's no option to have it done manually as fas as I'm aware.

The database version is still version 12.0.0 even with update 12.0.3 as the database has NOT been updated, you will need to check the credits or game status to see which version you are actually running