4 pictures that sum up everything that is wrong with the defending

I await people telling me that 'it's [my] tactics'.

A player this good should not be so far inside his own half when the ball was in the opposition box a few seconds ago. Then, just as he corrects his mistake, the killer ball is played and he is conveniently playing the opposition player onside. As the screenshots clearly show, the opposition player would have been offside had Voss held a proper line. Due to the players running in opposite directions, a huge gap opened up in a matter of seconds - leaving my goalkeeper completely exposed.

Fortunately, the goalkeeper prevented a goal from occurring. However, that doesn't excuse this sort of inadequate representation of the defence. If a player as good as Voss can't eliminate these errors, what chance do lower league players have? The match engine needs to change.

Heck, even the defender closest to the touchline is poorly positioned. Why, when the ball is in the opposition half, is he standing in his half? It doesn't make any sense.

Prior to the first screenshot, Did he( Voss) drop deep or did the rest Of the defenders push up to close down the attack ?

Could have just been a simple mistake from the defender.

Could have just been a simple mistake from the defender.

Could be many things TBH.

Its in the later stages of the match, we can't see what his condition or morale is like so it could be down to getting tired, loss of concentration, complacency etc. He could have just been on the ground and be picking himself up or possibly still be recovering from a slight knock.

Tactics wise it could be the defensive line or the player's individual instructions. Why does the OP think the defenders shouldn't be in their own half??

Finally it could be that personality and hidden attributes are having a small effect.

If it was my match and I had been watching it I would have a better idea as I would know the players but I think what it boils down to is that the OP has unrealistic expectations. No player is perfect in RL and mistakes happen many times during a match - Wenger was once quoted as saying every goal scored can be attributed to a mistake somewhere.

I would have said every single goal scored is because of a mistake from the opposite team. I cant think of any situation that would result in a goal without a mistake.

He probably did that stupid thing where a defender plays his own game of 'offside, ref!'

Quite amusing though that in all of those screenshots he is basically in the same spot, despite the play going on around him.

He just messed up his positioning.

The animation makes it look exaggerated so you can see what's happened.

I would have said every single goal scored is because of a mistake from the opposite team. I cant think of any situation that would result in a goal without a mistake.

I see what you are saying, and I agree to a point, but I think a difference can be drawn between the defense perhaps being able to do something to prevent a goal and a defender making a ridiculous error in judgment. Van Persie's goal this weekend is hardly due to any significant mistake by a defender, although has the defenders had foresight, something perhaps could have been done. Compare that with the Vidic own goal in the same game, and the defender mistake is much more obvious and pronounced.

The animation makes it look exaggerated so you can see what's happened.

What do you mean? The player isn't actually where he is shown? How is it exaggerating? The player either did what the match engine displayed or he didn't.

I see what you are saying, and I agree to a point, but I think a difference can be drawn between the defense perhaps being able to do something to prevent a goal and a defender making a ridiculous error in judgment. Van Persie's goal this weekend is hardly due to any significant mistake by a defender, although has the defenders had foresight, something perhaps could have been done. Compare that with the Vidic own goal in the same game, and the defender mistake is much more obvious and pronounced.

The mistake was allowing Man Utd to get the ball

The only way for the opposition to get the ball without a mistake is at kick off, in my anal opinion anyway!

It's hard to judge anything from one example since silly mistakes do happen in real football, but with that said, you just need to look at full season statistics to see that the ME is still a long way from accurately representing the basic defending that makes up the bulk of a football match (and I say this based on running numerous test simulations on full detail with no human manager). We all know the FM12 ME creates too many chances, implements width based on the center of the pitch rather than the location of the ball, generally leave too much exploitable space down the flanks and behind central midfielders, and, on average, generates about twice as many tackles as occur in real life, mostly as a result of fullbacks relying too much on tackling. Better basic positioning and a greater emphasis on simple jockeying would address this. Nothing controversial about pointing that out as statistics don't lie. Hopefully, the new ME being developed will make advances in this regard.

This isn't to say it would be easy, of course. "Basic" defending is actually the most difficult thing to program as it requires programming each player to have a sophisticated awareness of the space around him and the positioning of his teammates.

This is also one of the reasons pace has such a disproportionate effect on the effectiveness of a player. The ME generally leaves so much space for players to run into that a fast player will rarely be without a clear path to the goal. In a "perfect" ME, Composure, Agility and Balance would be far more important attributes.

It seems like in the first pic,your outside CDs(its a 3man defense right?)are man marking the wingers,if so than the only player left centrally is voss which means nothing is wrong here.But if your outside CDs are not man marking then the spacing is weird at the back.

bare in mind the graphical representation is just a visual idea of what the engine said happened in the processing, it gives you the idea that your defender was well out of position, dont pay too much attention to how bad it looks... just that there is something to tweak..

I would have said every single goal scored is because of a mistake from the opposite team. I cant think of any situation that would result in a goal without a mistake.

What, every goal ever has come from a mistake? I'll throw one in example (there would be millions). straight from kickoff, lovely slick passing then bang 30 yarder straight into the top corner.

What, every goal ever has come from a mistake? I'll throw one in example (there would be millions). straight from kickoff, lovely slick passing then bang 30 yarder straight into the top corner.

Midfielders & defenders at fault for not closing down, blocking the pass or making a tackle while the keeper is at fault for letting a shot in from 30 yards.

Midfielders & defenders at fault for not closing down, blocking the pass or making a tackle while the keeper is at fault for letting a shot in from 30 yards.

Exactly.

I would love to hear the millions of examples tho, i bet every single on can be pointed towards a mistake.

although this is bad.. I've seen worse in Champions League, World Cup, European Championship etc etc.. ***** happens.. also to the very best of players

I've seen Raúl (one of the best finishers in history) hit a ball, without any pressure, from 7-8 metres from goal and, I **** you not, it went out for a throw in.. so essentially it wasnt wide off the goal.. it was on its way away from the goal.. it never went towards it.. he, also, is "too good" for this to happen.. but it did

Defending is and always has been a joke.

Try and play a defensive tactic for a season and you'll quickly find out you can't as the ME isn't anywhere near good enough when you are not going gung-ho in attack.

Defending is and always has been a joke.

Try and play a defensive tactic for a season and you'll quickly find out you can't as the ME isn't anywhere near good enough when you are not going gung-ho in attack.

Total rubbish, I've played many seasons with a variety of teams in many leagues/countries and have had loads of success with more defensive, counter attacking tactics. In fact I rarely play attacking tactics at all.

I've taken Histon from BSN to Championship by playing a defensive 4-5-1 counterattack tactic.. I've tried to play more offensive when my players got better.. but nothing works better than 4-5-1 counter for me

It's your tactics.

I'm sorry but it is.

Defending is and always has been a joke.

Try and play a defensive tactic for a season and you'll quickly find out you can't as the ME isn't anywhere near good enough when you are not going gung-ho in attack.

I've won League One with an unfancied team playing a counter attacking 4-5-1, conceding just 35 goals in 46 games.

pal its ur tactics change them dont moan the games wrong

SI have admitted that there are issues with the defending and defensive line that are hard coded and cannot be fixed under the current ME.

Damn dude. That defender is a beast.

It seems like in the first pic,your outside CDs(its a 3man defense right?)are man marking the wingers,if so than the only player left centrally is voss which means nothing is wrong here.But if your outside CDs are not man marking then the spacing is weird at the back.

No, it's a 4 man defence. The player furthest away is the RB, Voss is a CB, the other player by the halfway line is the second CB and the player closest is the LB.

No, it's a 4 man defence. The player furthest away is the RB, Voss is a CB, the other player by the halfway line is the second CB and the player closest is the LB.

So in the first pic, 2 of your back-four are drawn to where they shouldn't. In the second pic your three defs are outnumbered 4:3, with the other centre-back apparently still trying to recover his position. That's just trouble. Voss is where he should be, the rest of the defence isn't.

So in the first pic, 2 of your back-four are drawn to where they shouldn't. In the second pic your three defs are outnumbered 4:3, with the other centre-back apparently still trying to recover his position. That's just trouble. Voss is where he should be, the rest of the defence isn't.

You think a defender should be that far inside their own half when the ball is in the opposition's half?

Off the ball stat is 11...

In all seriousness, as others have posted don't worry too much about the graphical portrayal of the match. It's not 100% accurate and I don't think it's supposed to be 100% accurate. It's supposed to give you a visual representation of what is going on, not an exact blow by blow account. Think yourself lucky, the first football manager game I played (Kenny Dalglish football manager I think it was called for the C64) had 3 or 4 animations for scoring a goal or missing. That was it...

Off the ball stat is 11...

In all seriousness, as others have posted don't worry too much about the graphical portrayal of the match. It's not 100% accurate and I don't think it's supposed to be 100% accurate. It's supposed to give you a visual representation of what is going on, not an exact blow by blow account. Think yourself lucky, the first football manager game I played (Kenny Dalglish football manager I think it was called for the C64) had 3 or 4 animations for scoring a goal or missing. That was it...

And still it was lots of fun.....as much as I like things to be realistic, it always is an abstraction of the real thing. As long as limitations and bugs don't kill the fun of indulging into the game. I find all things considered FM a pretty much perfect experience. Always room to improve certain areas.

Well, as you say yourself, if Voss weren't in that position, the striker would be in offside and there wouldn't have been a chance in that situation at all. In other words, for there to be a highlight, Voss would have to ruin the offside line (or the rest of the defenders would need to have a brainfart, which is more likely in that situation). Your tactical instructions would also have to allow the ME to create such a situation, which in this case is probably that you push up high and have high closing down settings for your defenders.

So, to sum it all up; since the highlight/chance you show us screenshots of has already happened the moment it loaded, what we see is what transpired. There are three different types of highlights; 1) Team A attacks and succeeds with the attack, 2) Team A attacks and fails the attack or 3) Team A attacks but the failure results in a counter-attack from team B. The highlight in question is of type 1), and the reason it succeeded was an error from your defense. So the cause of Vossen's error is not (necessarily) anything related to tactics or player material, tiredness, jadedness, overconfidence or whatever but simply that there was an attack which succeeded and something had to go wrong in your defense for it to do so.

Off the ball stat is 11...

Off the ball stat has influence only on attacking positioning, it's the positioning attribute that determines where the player will be when his team is defending.

Voss's positioning is pretty much spot on, to be fair. I'd take issue with the other centre back, who looks to be pressing nothing inside the opponents half and the right back, who definitely is pressing too high up.

The second screen shot shows roughly almost perfect starting positions IMO, apart from the right back.

What marking and pressing settings are you using?

Sorry to go OT but could you link that DB with the moldovon league? wouldn't mind trying to make Sheriff a top European team.

So, to sum it all up; since the highlight/chance you show us screenshots of has already happened the moment it loaded, what we see is what transpired. There are three different types of highlights; 1) Team A attacks and succeeds with the attack, 2) Team A attacks and fails the attack or 3) Team A attacks but the failure results in a counter-attack from team B. The highlight in question is of type 1), and the reason it succeeded was an error from your defense. So the cause of Vossen's error is not (necessarily) anything related to tactics or player material, tiredness, jadedness, overconfidence or whatever but simply that there was an attack which succeeded and something had to go wrong in your defense for it to do so.

As has been stated numerous times by the officials: The ME does not work that way, arbitrarily working out a set of play and in this case particularly awkard movement that would result in the goal or missed chance it determined beforehand - and would be pretty useless if it did.

edit: Totally aggree about what you're saying about tactics and player material, though. There is an element of randomness and ambiguity naturally, there has to be. I think in one of the rare moments where Paul Collyer touched upon the inner workings publicly, he was talking about the concept of "weighted random numbers". These would ensure that by and large fast players would outrun slower ones, technically gifted players would do better on the ball than limited ones, but not always. There have to be exceptions, as we all remember the limited defender hitting it with beauty or the unhumanly reliable goal keeper suddenly ****ing it all up in the final seconds of a tournament. Btw, I always find it fascinating to see how by and large players running the longest distances over the course of a season tend to be those with high ratings in work rate or PPMs that make them cover ground a plenty. If you full-sim a country from down to bottom league tier, you will even see those numbers dropping tier by tier, as they should do. Same goes for players getting booked - I recently edited a fantasy team consisting of Gattuso, de Jong, van Bommel, Pepe, et all, and they really show up to be the most booked team in the competition on average. All the random elements and engine faults considered, you don't get this close a relationship between cause and effect in other management games. And therein, to me, lies the secret to success of Football Manager.

Yeah Biggus im sure you have been told on a number of occasions that is not how it works.

As has been stated numerous times by the officials: The ME does not work that way, arbitrarily working out a set of play and in this case particularly awkard movement that would result in the goal or missed chance it determined beforehand - and would be pretty useless if it did.

The answers given by the "officials" are just semantics. The truth is that when the game kicks off everything is already decided (until changes are made), including mistakes like the above. What they say is that the ME works out the sequence up to the goal in chronological order, not the goal first, but at the time the highlight starts that is completely irrelevant. When you watch the highlight, it is already decided whether there's a goal at the end of it or not, and thus the same can be said about ridiculous positioning errors and other "Defending Bugs" as well. FM knows what happens in the highlight and shows you what it calculated, so since the end result of the highlight is known the chronological order of events are all necessities of that end result.

This is not critique of SI or FM.

It is just a call to the brains of those playing FM who fools themselves into believing that they see 22 individual AI units calculating decisions at the same time. If you watch the highlights keeping in mind that they are single events with a single actor, that is a much healthier approach.

The answers given by the "officials" are just semantics. The truth is that when the game kicks off everything is already decided (until changes are made), including mistakes like the above. What they say is that the ME works out the sequence up to the goal in chronological order, not the goal first, but at the time the highlight starts that is completely irrelevant. When you watch the highlight, it is already decided whether there's a goal at the end of it or not, and thus the same can be said about ridiculous positioning errors and other "Defending Bugs" as well. FM knows what happens in the highlight and shows you what it calculated,

Yeah, but you appeared to argue the same as here. That is what I was objecting to. My mistake if I got it wrong.

The answers given by the "officials" are just semantics. The truth is that when the game kicks off everything is already decided (until changes are made), including mistakes like the above. What they say is that the ME works out the sequence up to the goal in chronological order, not the goal first, but at the time the highlight starts that is completely irrelevant. When you watch the highlight, it is already decided whether there's a goal at the end of it or not, and thus the same can be said about ridiculous positioning errors and other "Defending Bugs" as well. FM knows what happens in the highlight and shows you what it calculated, so since the end result of the highlight is known the chronological order of events are all necessities of that end result.

This is not critique of SI or FM.

It is just a call to the brains of those playing FM who fools themselves into believing that they see 22 individual AI units calculating decisions at the same time. If you watch the highlights keeping in mind that they are single events with a single actor, that is a much healthier approach.

You really don't fully understand how it works do you?

I'll attempt to expand on some of the issues:

A) If you play in full match mode nothing is calculated in advance, everything is calculated on the fly. If you use highlights then the match is played in advance so FM can identify what is a highlight. If it was possible to take a random match and play it once in full match and once with highlights FM would calculate it to be identical with the same goals scored in exactly the same way. However this isn't possible as we have to choose one way or another when we proceed to the match.

B) Yes, when the highlight starts FM already knows if a goal has been scored at the end of the highlight but you still have it backwards. FM does not then change the highlight to suit the outcome, everything shown in the highlight was calculated already by the ME and the goal is scored due to what happens during the highlight. Going back to (A) if you had been watching the match in full mode (Calculated on the fly) the defender would still have been positioned in the same position that he was in the OP.

C) FM does in fact calculate every single pass, tackle, shot, block etc etc etc that you see despite what you think.

A) If you play in full match mode nothing is calculated in advance, everything is calculated on the fly. If you use highlights then the match is played in advance so FM can identify what is a highlight.

Playing in full match mode is the same as watching in highlight mode, though. Except the action isn't cut short to the sequences that are "marked" as being match highlights, but you get to see what was calculated in its entirety. There isn't anything being calculated "on the fly" and "real-time" by the ME - this was one of the first things I wondered about when I first discovered FM rather late in 2007ish. Also explained by PaulC, I think. :-)

Could be many things TBH.

Its in the later stages of the match, we can't see what his condition or morale is like so it could be down to getting tired, loss of concentration, complacency etc. He could have just been on the ground and be picking himself up or possibly still be recovering from a slight knock.

Tactics wise it could be the defensive line or the player's individual instructions. Why does the OP think the defenders shouldn't be in their own half??

Finally it could be that personality and hidden attributes are having a small effect.

If it was my match and I had been watching it I would have a better idea as I would know the players but I think what it boils down to is that the OP has unrealistic expectations. No player is perfect in RL and mistakes happen many times during a match - Wenger was once quoted as saying every goal scored can be attributed to a mistake somewhere.

Give me a break. The biggest fanboy post I've seen in ages.

Look at the first screenshot, Voss is standing still (no running animation) What the OP is saying is that the ME is flawed, a 24yr old world class CB doesn't do dumb errors like that. And to top it, he doesnt even follow the running opponent.

Playing in full match mode is the same as watching in highlight mode, though. Except the action isn't cut short to the sequences that are "marked" as being match highlights, but you get to see what was calculated in its entirety. There isn't anything being calculated "on the fly" and "real-time" by the ME - this was one of the first things I wondered about when I first discovered FM rather late in 2007ish. Also explained by PaulC, I think. :-)

Thats right, apologies if I wasn't clear enough.

The calculations are far quicker than it takes to show the match but everything you see is second by second as the ME calculated it as PaulC clarified in the thread you linked earlier.

Give me a break. The biggest fanboy post I've seen in ages.

Look at the first screenshot, Voss is standing still (no running animation) What the OP is saying is that the ME is flawed, a 24yr old world class CB doesn't do dumb errors like that. And to top it, he doesnt even follow the running opponent.

Ignoring your first comment as you seem clueless as to what one is I listed many possible reasons why Voss was in the position he was in.

Without more information its impossible to know and it could easily be a mix of several things but given he is standing still facing the wrong way in the first screenshot I suspect something occurred prior to that screenshot which influenced his position.

More weight is added to my suspicion by the second screenshot which shows Voss running forwards attempting to regain position/close down the ST.

Finally in the third screenshot it shows him having turned and giving chase which totally contradicts your final comment above.

It would be much easier to analyse if the OP uploaded the PKM to be honest.

You really don't fully understand how it works do you?

I'll attempt to expand on some of the issues:

A) If you play in full match mode nothing is calculated in advance, everything is calculated on the fly. If you use highlights then the match is played in advance so FM can identify what is a highlight. If it was possible to take a random match and play it once in full match and once with highlights FM would calculate it to be identical with the same goals scored in exactly the same way. However this isn't possible as we have to choose one way or another when we proceed to the match.

B) Yes, when the highlight starts FM already knows if a goal has been scored at the end of the highlight but you still have it backwards. FM does not then change the highlight to suit the outcome, everything shown in the highlight was calculated already by the ME and the goal is scored due to what happens during the highlight. Going back to (A) if you had been watching the match in full mode (Calculated on the fly) the defender would still have been positioned in the same position that he was in the OP.

C) FM does in fact calculate every single pass, tackle, shot, block etc etc etc that you see despite what you think.

This is all fine, except you don't "expand" on any of what I said. Nothing I said contradicts what you say. I never said that FM changes the highlight to suit the outcome, and that is not what I try to get at either.

Bottom line is that the highlight just IS, so the OP's example of what is wrong with the defending in FM is simply beside the point. The Hand of God's post in #10 explains what is really wrong with defending and personal mistakes aren't among them. There are many threads on awful mistakes and bloopers and even more threads on missed chances but those wouldn't pop up as often if FM players just realized that when their striker missed an absolute sitter what they saw wasn't a sequence of play which ended in a stupid striker not doing his job. What they saw was their striker missing a sitter! The whole damn highlight was about their striker missing a sitter and that is all it was!

Understanding that, there is no need to complain to SI about strikers not scoring 100% sure chances, and yes if it happens repeatedly it is indeed your tactic.

Yeah you need to see the PKM really, something has happened before the first screen shot for the centre back to be in the position he is in and facing the way he is, the entire backline is all over the place, im guessing this was a quick counter from the opp. Without seeing that the screen shots are kinda pointless, yes he is out of position from what you would expect in a normal situation, but i wouldnt say its a huge mistake or anything, but again without seeing the full sequence its hard to say really.

He's clearly done that weird little movement like the defender is playing his own game of offside, where he makes an illogical movement forward when the ball is played, then turns around and chases in vain. Like below...

[video=youtube;UQj6Mk39E_c]

Whether it's a graphical or ME bug or tactical I don't know, but this single occurence is a huge reason so many simple balls forward turn into through balls. OP can you upload to youtube to see exactly what movement (or lack thereof) the defender has made?

Voss's positioning is pretty much spot on, to be fair. I'd take issue with the other centre back, who looks to be pressing nothing inside the opponents half and the right back, who definitely is pressing too high up.

This, particularly if you're using a deep defensive line, would make sense if Voss is on a cover role and the other CB on a stopper role. Stopper role seems to be far too eager to go for the ball most of the time and I no longer use it.

This is repost, but it really speaks volumes about current ME: Video

He's clearly done that weird little movement like the defender is playing his own game of offside, where he makes an illogical movement forward when the ball is played, then turns around and chases in vain. Like below...

Whether it's a graphical or ME bug or tactical I don't know, but this single occurence is a huge reason so many simple balls forward turn into through balls. OP can you upload to youtube to see exactly what movement (or lack thereof) the defender has made?

Yes clearly in your link your DC is trying to play offside but the DL plays the ST on but thats significantly different to the OP's pictures.

This is all fine, except you don't "expand" on any of what I said. Nothing I said contradicts what you say. I never said that FM changes the highlight to suit the outcome, and that is not what I try to get at either.

Bottom line is that the highlight just IS, so the OP's example of what is wrong with the defending in FM is simply beside the point. The Hand of God's post in #10 explains what is really wrong with defending and personal mistakes aren't among them. There are many threads on awful mistakes and bloopers and even more threads on missed chances but those wouldn't pop up as often if FM players just realized that when their striker missed an absolute sitter what they saw wasn't a sequence of play which ended in a stupid striker not doing his job. What they saw was their striker missing a sitter! The whole damn highlight was about their striker missing a sitter and that is all it was!

Understanding that, there is no need to complain to SI about strikers not scoring 100% sure chances, and yes if it happens repeatedly it is indeed your tactic.

I think I can see your point Biggus and for the most part I think we agree just some of your comments are a little ambiguous and its possible I may have misunderstood what you meant in some places.