broken game engine

[herne79]

30 minutes ago, Mandy42 said:

my turn to play devils advocate, being able to pause the game and take however long to make a decision is a tool not in the AI's locker, and is just as unrealistic and unimersive  as a team going from zero to hero in 4 minutes. While I understand it fuels the argument that the game engine is weighted towards the player, it once more doesn't feel great to have to resort to that in order to keep up with how quickly the match engine changes.

Because to use your real life example, Burnley are 2-1 down in the last minute of the game, you know they are scuffling with the keeper in the back of the net to get the ball back and put it on the centre spot, there isn't the time to make adequate changes in real life, feels exploitative that you can create that time in the game.

I haven't done that, and probably will look at it as you suggest, it however doesn't feel like the most immersive and realistic solution

Yeh I understand and agree.  The thing is the AI can react faster than we can - we usually watch in a certain highlights mode and by the time the next highlight comes around sometimes it's too late to make an effective change.  Whereas the AI isn't watching highlights, it's playing the match "live".

5 minutes ago, Federico said:

Again, this is too much about human emotions and reactions, and for how good an emulation can be, I would never use this example to explain that. If FM AI was so evolute, I would expect a lot more happening on the pitch.

Like Burnley scoring 2 goals in the last 4 minutes of a match?  That's the example being discussed.

[HUNT3R]

22 minutes ago, Federico said:

Again, this is too much about human emotions and reactions, and for how good an emulation can be, I would never use this example to explain that. If FM AI was so evolute, I would expect a lot more happening on the pitch. And how this can even barely happen without any tactical change... sorry but I don't think it's a valid point in the FM world.

Herne is right though. Determined players would be fired up to get back into the match, for instance. The game does have Personalities and players can behave in a different way to others. On the other team, they may have lost some focus/motivation and that led to an error or two? Not saying it happened and I don't think Herne is either, but these things are possible.

Quote

And if this was true, I would not expect a scissor tackle from a player of mine when the team is comfortably leading 3 or 4-0, deserving a straight red.

Did this happen? I've seen nervous players make rash challenges and I've seen reckless tackles from aggressive or fired up players. I wouldn't expect a situation like you're describing, but it could be a player switching off... not thinking in the moment?

 

---

 

I understand you're on the other side of the fence on this, Federico. You treat this as a game. I treat it like a real life situation and it hasn't failed me so far. Especially in the case of trying to understand players and their thinking in match, transfer, team talk etc situations.

[Federico]

No. An AI that evolute would be a great benefit on many areas of the game, a better understanding of players around the pitch, a better understanding on pass decisioning, shot decisioning, players movements, forwards runs and through balls. A human brain can be affected by X emotional factors a FM player (not user! well even user maybe...) can't never relate with.

I'm not saying it's bad how it is, surely there's no comparison for anything else on the market, big credit to SI for this, and honestly what FM achieved in terms of football representation is terrific. But I'm leading this personal crusade against comparison between real life experiences and FM. I understand there must be something to look at, a source to gather any information possible. But every FM match has to be contextualized within the FM world. In my opinion this is the only way for people to understand and accept what happens around FM.

Il 2/7/2020 in 19:41 , HUNT3R ha scritto:

I understand you're on the other side of the fence on this, Federico. You treat this as a game. I treat it like a real life situation and it hasn't failed me so far. Especially in the case of trying to understand players and their thinking in match, transfer, team talk etc situations.

It happened to opposite to me it failed quite much to me instead and get kind of disappointed from certain situations that I've been forced to judge it as a game so that I could enjoy it again. I am myself a coach, and behind any player, any face you see 3 times a week, every guy or man, there's a universe of thoughts and emotions nobody can even try to understand. A good coach can read through any wall, but it's incredibly difficult and requires a lot of experience and empathy. And, not to say, you have to be ready to fail the most of times, initially at least.

Is this existing in FM? You can only imagine how much I would love this to exist. But it's math.

But yeah, when I happen to win the CL I still feel like Marcello Lippi

 

 

 

[Mandy42]

8 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

o far the only situation you have accepted it is OK for the opposition to contrive to score against you is if you gamble on a win [but it's also unacceptable for you not to already be beating them by similarly wide margins to Man City's better, more attacking side, so go figure]  or if they're Man Utd and don't repeat the implausibly large tactical errors they made in the first game. You claimed you were OK with not winning games if the opposition parked the bus, but promptly added the caveat unless they have negative goal differences. So basically you want me to acknowledge you're cool with the opposition taking points off you if they are at least as good as you, defend well and don't have any players on bookings that you care to dribble at?  Nobody acknowledges Mourinho's shows of humility either  

 

 

 

actually no I have said in multiple posts that the Burnley result of a draw was a fair result, and I made no gamble in that game, they scored twice against me, just in a way that seemed very unrealistic in the context of the game. Plus I've also said I have no problem with my record of W24 D6 L1 which has 7 negative results in it.

10 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Maybe the opposition asked a player to calm down and he actually responded. The AI isn't obsessed with validation, but it does make decisions. The match engine code doesn't know whether it's input from a human button click or an AI function, and literally the only way SI could ease your simultaneous insistence that your players should never get second yellows if you make an instruction, but the opposition should get second yellows regardless of their instructions if your unremarkable-for-the-level winger ran at them would be to change the engine inputs so it could treat yours favourably.

You watch MOTD as well, don't you? Ever seen a player be blatantly targeted by the opposition and not get sent off, or a player get sent off stupidly? Both of them happen literally all the time. There's no particular reason to expect a second yellow card just because your player runs at his opponent, it's just a bonus if he gets it. Similarly, there's no reason to expect your player to be immune to yellow cards if you change his tackling settings, because if every player avoided getting yellow cards if their manager asked them to, it'd be a very different sport. And likewise no reason to expect that telling your players to mark the opponent after he's scored his first goal will guarantee he won't score a second because again, the league would be a very different place if players stopped making mistakes as soon as they were asked.

 

 

 

I have no idea whether the AI told their player to calm down or not, I know he didn't respond because he committed multiple further fouls, I know this because the match engine showed me the fouls. Thus I am perplexed as to why the player is still on the pitch. Again drawing the comparison that I don't see my player commit any fouls until I see the one that gets him sent off. Nowhere did I say that I shouldn't receive 2nd yellow cards just that again comparing the two instances it seems unfair, simply because of how the match engine depicts it.

And for the record no I don't watch Match of the Day. Watching overpaid pundits validating referee mistakes and denounce technological solutions, suggesting that "a player of that calibre should be doing better in that instance" or whatever over used troupe is the flavour of the week is part of the problem not the solution.

18 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

tbf it is valid to argue highlight selection can sometimes be a little weird. But this is because writing highlight selection code to figure out which passages of play are interesting and how they segue into other chances is hard, and because for better and for worse Extended Highlights intentionally doesn't show every shot and intentionally always shows kickoff and [too much of] the last play of the match. I don't think code which satisfied your desire to both see every foul you gave away and not see any buildup to your own free kicks would be better though (and afaik the highlights engine is also unbiased as to which sides' chances it shows) never mind other things you've complained about like Man City's form..

 

 

 

 Almost an admission of something I wrote being potentially ok, I think I need to lie down! It is definitely subjective, as I don't care about interesting, not in a sense of drama or entertainment, I want an accurate simulation of what is happening on the pitch, not wondering why I'm having attempts on target that are not good enough to show but yet I am still not seeing any highlights fullstop.

20 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

 

 

I mean, if the only explanation that 'visually makes sense' to you when you watch a highlight of the opposition throwing on a striker and put the ball on his head for him to put the ball into the net is a conspiracy theory about developers contriving to make tension in the overall competition, it's hard to believe your actual problem is with the information it chooses to show or that SI could ever genuinely satisfy you with a balanced match engine.

You 'feel validated' when you benefit from putting on a striker and write posts complaining that the manner of the negative results is irrational highlighting one occasion all season the opposition succeed from it 

 

Again not what I said, or rather not only what I said. Burnley didn't throw an extra striker on, they didn't make a visible change in the 24 minutes before they scored. They didn't touch the ball for the whole of the 2nd half. We were woeful in the 1st half and we should have been out of sight in the 2nd, which we weren't so (as I have repeatedly said) the fair result was a draw. The issue being that 4 minutes of perfect football after 89 minutes of crap is not a realistic way for the game to show me that result. 

Also pretty sure in my 1st post I highlight how irrational it is for Liverpool to score the same freak goal twice in 1 game compared to the flowing highlights I watch them create against the AI every other time. Once more not unhappy to lose, but unhappy to lose in a manner which seems so out of character with the narrative displayed against other teams.

But continue to draw just the conclusions you want from my posts  while indicating I do exactly the same thing regarding the game engine, think I might actually go play the game now

[HUNT3R]

@Mandy42 I have noticed that the AI in FM20 make their attacking changes later in matches than they used to. Sometimes as late as the 85th minute. It's sometimes easy to miss. Personally, I'm not a fan of it as I don't believe people would wait that long, but I have been caught off guard by it once or twice early on.

That was some good advice, higher up, to keep the formation widget open. It helps to spot these things.

[Mandy42]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

@Mandy42 I have noticed that the AI in FM20 make their attacking changes later in matches than they used to. Sometimes as late as the 85th minute. It's sometimes easy to miss. Personally, I'm not a fan of it as I don't believe people would wait that long, but I have been caught off guard by it once or twice early on.

No I understand that, it also reminds me of a real Newcastle game against Chelsea where they parked the bus for 80 minutes then decided to give it a go with 10 minutes to go, basically trying to restrict their vulnerability to only 10 minutes where we had any chance at all of getting penetration or affecting the game.

It just doesn't feel like football, that you would wait that long, or that your players would be able to switch gears / mentalities / formations and have a definitive impact in such a narrow window of time.

[HUNT3R]

13 minutes ago, Federico said:

It happened to opposite to me it failed quite much to me instead and get kind of disappointed from certain situation that I've been forced to judge it as a game so that I could enjoy it again. I am myself a coach, and behind any player, any face you see 3 times a week, every guy or man, there's a universe of thoughts and emotions nobody can even try to understand

I understand that. Perhaps, you make a point that we're seeing too much of this info in FM? We do get a fair amount of information. We can see morale, body language during a match, reactions to team talks etc. Is it too much or too accurate? I can't say for sure. What I can say is that in the FM world, it is possible to 'understand' players.

[Federico]

16 minuti fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

Did this happen? I've seen nervous players make rash challenges and I've seen reckless tackles from aggressive or fired up players. I wouldn't expect a situation like you're describing, but it could be a player switching off... not thinking in the moment?

Yeah, more than once honestly. Have you ever experienced straight reds in pre-season games against your U18?

[enigmatic]

9 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Yeh I understand and agree.  The thing is the AI can react faster than we can - we usually watch in a certain highlights mode and by the time the next highlight comes around sometimes it's too late to make an effective change.  Whereas the AI isn't watching highlights, it's playing the match "live".

It's not difficult to make the right changes after a goal or highlight - just hit pause and they'll all kick in at the next restart, which is quicker than any real life manager can intervene. Obviously if you're not watching on full match [who has the time] you miss stuff that happens in between highlights. But the AI misses a lot more from being too basic to properly analyse a match.

 

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Did this happen? I've seen nervous players make rash challenges and I've seen reckless tackles from aggressive or fired up players. I wouldn't expect a situation like you're describing, but it could be a player switching off... not thinking in the moment?

I have seen it on rare occasions in FM, most notably a German AI side deciding to balance up their two goal lead by getting a couple of pointless red cards and then conceding eight goals to me. But I've also seen players do dumb and reckless things occasionally under little pressure IRL so I'm not sure if it's any more likely in FM.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Mandy42 said:

It just doesn't feel like football, that you would wait that long, or that your players would be able to switch gears / mentalities / formations and have a definitive impact in such a narrow window of time.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not a fan of it. Start changing at 70 or 75 mins at least. Give yourself time to have a chance of doing something. There was only one Man Utd with Fergie Time. It is a change I'd like to see for future - the AI being less inclined to make changes that late - unless it was a fairly late goal against them of course.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Federico said:

Yeah, more than once honestly.

Must say, that's a surprise. But maybe try to see if there's some sort of pattern. Either in their Personality or in their Body Language at the time. There's a reason why they do what they do  

3 minutes ago, Federico said:

Have you ever experienced straight reds in pre-season games against your U18?

Honestly, I don't know. I sometimes arrange them, but I hardly manage any friendlies. Red cards in friendlies do happen, but if you're regularly seeing it, or anything more than the odd occasion, maybe there's more to it like what I mentioned in the above text.

[Federico]

14 minuti fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

I understand that. Perhaps, you make a point that we're seeing too much of this info in FM? We do get a fair amount of information. We can see morale, body language during a match, reactions to team talks etc. Is it too much or too accurate? I can't say for sure. What I can say is that in the FM world, it is possible to 'understand' players.

I don't know I just think that people expect so much from FM, and probably me too, that we always get disappointed and we finally come here venting&ranting. As said above, the effort from SI to make it as likely as possible to real football is... MASSIVE! What I mean is, sure, you can understand players. No wait... can you really understand players? You read a description of his current emotional status/body language. How his currect emotional status is affecting the way he is playing the game? Is there a counter-shout that can push him to improve his personal performance? What I get by demanding more? what I get by pushing more? will my players be faster? more aggressive? how can I know if some particular shout will benefit Mr. X but will be a malus for Mr. Y? I think, my point of view, I think to understand players, but I know nothing. So I pretend to think that if a player is nervous, shouting him to calm down will relax him. And maybe I sub him. How this affects his way to play, Odin only knows.

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, Mandy42 said:

When you are playing in game against bottom 3 teams with massively negative goal differences, who somehow can keep your team out for 90 minutes and find a way to score low % goals to take points off you, it seems both unrealistic and unfair compared to the AI vs AI games who have no trouble scoring and winning.

1) Surely the first port of call was Looking at what those Ai was doing differently (SPOILER: It won't be rocket science though SI have received suggestions in the past.) And connected to 2) This isn't true as an universal experience as the AI drops a good amount of points, usually -- as recorded and complained about by many (in this very thread, by the way too, highlighting how even top Team shot conversions can be quite subpar). In particular if it doesn't have worldy squads to begin with (e.g. not PSG style squad Quality dominations in Ligue 1)...

Edited July 2, 2020 by Svenc

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, Federico said:

I don't know I just think that people expect so much from FM, and probably me too, that we always get disappointed and we finally come here venting&ranting. As said above, the effort from SI to make it as likely as possible to real football is... MASSIVE! What I mean is, sure, you can understand player. No wait... can you really understand players? You read a description of his current emotional status/body language. How his currect emotional status is affecting the way he is playing the game? Is there a counter-shout that can push him to improve his personal performance? What I get but demanding more? what I get to push more? will my players be faster? more aggressive? how can I know is some particular shout will benefit Mr. X but will be a malus for Mr. Y? I think, my point of view, we think to understand players, but we know nothing. So I pretend to think that if a player is nervous, shouting him to calm down will relax him. And maybe I sub him. How this affects his way to play, Odin only knows.

I know that what I see in Body Language matches what I see in the on-field behaviour. Nervous player act in a rash way. They'll snatch at chances, clear the ball when they'd normally pass. I'd see complacent players be a little slower in reacting to a situation. ETC. I've posted this elsewhere but in order to properly learn the game, I spent a lot of time watching everything. In my case, I did it for half of FM13 and all of FM14 (not saying you need to take this much time) to look at team talks, their reactions, watch full matches with a lot of widgets open too etc. In that time, I learned a hell of a lot. Toward the end, I did all of that just for fun.

I even did an article on Cleon's magazine thing where I gave the complete opposite team talks to what would be expected. The reactions were insightful and players seemed to react according to their personality / media handling style. After that, they became more human to me.

[Federico]

11 minuti fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

Must say, that's a surprise. But maybe try to see if there's some sort of pattern. Either in their Personality or in their Body Language at the time. There's a reason why they do what they do  

Honestly, I don't know. I sometimes arrange them, but I hardly manage any friendlies. Red cards in friendlies do happen, but if you're regularly seeing it, or anything more than the odd occasion, maybe there's more to it like what I mentioned in the above text.

Fortunately it's quite a rare occurrance, but something you notice when it happens because out of any logic.

I started like... let's say "many" careers, at some point it turned to be something so common that I began to accept it (here my appeasement towards the FM world mentioned above)

[Federico]

1 minuto fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

I know that what I see in Body Language matches what I see in the on-field behaviour. Nervous player act in a rash way. They'll snatch at chances, clear the ball when they'd normally pass. I'd see complacent players be a little slower in reacting to a situation. ETC. I've posted this elsewhere but in order to properly learn the game, I spent a lot of time watching everything. In my case, I did it for half of FM13 and all of FM14 (not saying you need to take this much time) to look at team talks, their reactions, watch full matches with a lot of widgets open too etc. In that time, I learned a hell of a lot. Toward the end, I did all of that just for fun.

I even did an article on Cleon's magazine thing where I gave the complete opposite team talks to what would be expected. The reactions were insightful and players seemed to react according to their personality / media handling style. After that, they became more human to me.

I will have a look at then

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, Federico said:

I will have a look at then

Maybe this will help. I've attached the article.

I obviously believe my way of doing it and seeing things is correct, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. I do understand that people view things differently though. And you gave me some food for thought too about just how much info we have available and whether it's maybe too much.

CCC4.pdf

[Mandy42]

moving past my feelings rightly or wrongly regarding a different visual experience in the game engine.

While lots of people are commenting, what do people think about the times you don't get an offside replay from a VAR decision? Is that a simulation of an officiating mistake or just the same as game giving an offside replay for some legitimate goals and not for others?

[enigmatic]

10 minutes ago, Mandy42 said:

actually no I have said in multiple posts that the Burnley result of a draw was a fair result, and I made no gamble in that game, they scored twice against me, just in a way that seemed very unrealistic in the context of the game. Plus I've also said I have no problem with my record of W24 D6 L1 which has 7 negative results in it.

And yet you've also insisted that a lot of those individual results are wrong because you feel entitled to beat teams if they have poor goal difference, especially if they lose by wide margins in other games against better sides, and also complained about defeats because you find the goals they score too scruffy or too perfect. I said you were impossible to please, not that you were coherent  

 

15 minutes ago, Mandy42 said:

I have no idea whether the AI told their player to calm down or not, I know he didn't respond because he committed multiple further fouls, I know this because the match engine showed me the fouls. Thus I am perplexed as to why the player is still on the pitch. Again drawing the comparison that I don't see my player commit any fouls until I see the one that gets him sent off. Nowhere did I say that I shouldn't receive 2nd yellow cards just that again comparing the two instances it seems unfair, simply because of how the match engine depicts itplay the game now

I'm not sure why you would assume the other fouls committed by the player were yellow card worthy? Persistent fouling second yellows are rare in real life and nothing in the match engine given you any indication that fouls committed by your player weren't much worse [the visuals really aren't that detailed], so again, I don't think it's SI's fault you have decided this thing which happens regularly in football is unfair when it happens to you.

 

23 minutes ago, Mandy42 said:

Also pretty sure in my 1st post I highlight how irrational it is for Liverpool to score the same freak goal twice in 1 game compared to the flowing highlights I watch them create against the AI every other time. Once more not unhappy to lose, but unhappy to lose in a manner which seems so out of character with the narrative displayed against other teams.

Again, the 'narrative' argument is conspiratorial excuse making. It's not generating 'narrative', it's a bunch of data tables allied to a random number generator which doesn't know whether the inputs are coming from you or the AI. The same engine generates the other full detail matches you're not participating in. 

So since the narrative is entirely subjective perception and entirely in your head try a different narrative: Liverpool didn't create flowing highlights against you because you didn't have any glaring weaknesses in your back line to exploit due to a sounder setup and team than the average Premier League AI team [yes, that means your tactics were good for that game  ] . They had enough possession [and a crowded enough box edge] to take some deflected speculative shots and were a bit lucky with the goals, but their players were good enough and well set up enough not to be threatened much by your long throws [which may or may not be a bit exploity given that nobody's really done much with them at the top level IRL since the Premier League figured out Delap ten years ago]. Your less-expensively assembled team wasn't as good as Liverpool's world class superstars who excel at big games, and probably panicked a bit more than usual, but kept them in a game that could have gone the other way with a bit of luck.

If AI Klopp could talk he'd probably be fuming at the narrative meaning the one time his flowing moves didn't work was a cup final though.

[enigmatic]

23 minutes ago, Mandy42 said:

While lots of people are commenting, what do people think about the times you don't get an offside replay from a VAR decision? Is that a simulation of an officiating mistake or just the same as game giving an offside replay for some legitimate goals and not for others?

Can't actually remember VAR overruling offsides without a replay tbh. Lots of non VAR games with offside calls and some real time offsides, and goals and penalty decisions confirmed without offside lines being necessary, but they're all different scenarios. Still, if SI have bothered to code VAR errors they'd be rare...

Whilst we're on criticising highlights, that referee running to the side of the pitch animation is awful though  

[Federico]

32 minuti fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

Maybe this will help. I've attached the article.

I obviously believe my way of doing it and seeing things is correct, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it. I do understand that people view things differently though. And you gave me some food for thought too about just how much info we have available and whether it's maybe too much.

CCC4.pdf 4 MB · 3 downloads

I think I collected those pdf back in the days... but it was so long ago I confess I remember nothing of what I read

About the infos available to us... this is another argument of discussion. And probably we users are the cause of that, because we like to ask more more and more. I think I use FM at 15% of his potential, at best. This means one thing: time passes inherosably, and I'm growing old

[Mandy42]

13 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Can't actually remember VAR overruling offsides without a replay tbh. Lots of non VAR games with offside calls and some real time offsides, and goals and penalty decisions confirmed without offside lines being necessary, but they're all different scenarios. Still, if SI have bothered to code VAR errors they'd be rare...

Whilst we're on criticising highlights, that referee running to the side of the pitch animation is awful though  

He doesn't even bother half of the time! he just puts his hand to his ear and disallows the goal.

And yes they are pretty rare, just wondering if other people had experienced it and what they thought about it.

And AI Klopp can talk, he said his players relished rising to the big occasion which is a fair assessment. 

I guess I assume the other fouls were yellow card worthy because I am being shown them, or that after seeing frequent fouls from the same player who is on a yellow card subjectively I'm wondering what it needs for him to be sent off. Must mean there is a random element to a referee's decision to what is a 2nd yellow. I don't see the comparison to real life as acceptable, second yellow cards are rare because officials don't have the stones to enforce the rules or they interpret the rules in a subjective way, not because the cards shouldn't be given. 

I will say after today's back and forth on this discussion thread that the narrative in my head is more balanced than it was last night, that isn't to say that there aren't passages of play that drive me spare (when my defender decides to head an opposition long ball down into space for the opposition midfield to run onto, when he is under no pressure, rather than step under it and leave it for the keeper, or just nod it down to his team mate a few paces to his side.) I just have to keep reminding myself that I do in fact see the same thing happen with the AI team

Edited July 2, 2020 by Mandy42

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, Mandy42 said:

He doesn't even bother half of the time! he just puts his hand to his ear and disallows the goal.

And yes they are pretty rare, just wondering if other people had experienced it and what they thought about it.

And AI Klopp can talk, he said his players relished rising to the big occasion which is a fair assessment. 

I guess I assume the other fouls were yellow card worthy because I am being shown them, or that after seeing frequent fouls from the same player who is on a yellow card subjectively I'm wondering what it needs for him to be sent off. Must mean there is a random element to a referee's decision to what is a 2nd yellow. I don't see the comparison to real life as acceptable, second yellow cards are rare because officials don't have the stones to enforce the rules or they interpret the rules in a subjective way, not because the cards shouldn't be given. 

The fouls are shown because you created something from the free kicks, or the highlight generator rightly or wrongly thought the bit of play beforehand was interesting. IIRC it doesn't bother showing most of the actual cards on Extended, never mind fouls a referee might consider giving a card for.

There's obviously a random element to ME yellow card giving, but you've seen real life refs! There's also definitely systematic variation with some AI refs being programmed to be harsher than others and probably a strong bias against marginal second yellows and small home bias in decision making as well. It is supposed to be a simulation after all.

[Mandy42]

For example

I feel rather lucky this goal stands. As although at full speed it looks close, frame by frame I think Kirby is offside when the ball is played through to him, thus even if he doesn't receive the ball he is interfering with play, because if he isn't there the defender doesn't have to challenge the pass and the ball doesn't come back to the eventual goal scorer.

Now whether in real life he would be called up for interfering with play, or whether the simulation takes those rules into account I don't know. Why I hate the subjective nature of the offside rule, if you are on the pitch you damn well better be interfering with play, you are getting paid enough!

So yeah, from a narrative point in my head, I got away with one there

[Pasonen]

1 hour ago, Mandy42 said:

frame by frame I think Kirby is offside when the ball is played through to him

Maybe not the main point of the post, but cdL is clearly lower than Kirby.

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, Mandy42 said:

For example

I feel rather lucky this goal stands. As although at full speed it looks close, frame by frame I think Kirby is offside when the ball is played through to him, thus even if he doesn't receive the ball he is interfering with play, because if he isn't there the defender doesn't have to challenge the pass and the ball doesn't come back to the eventual goal scorer.

Now whether in real life he would be called up for interfering with play, or whether the simulation takes those rules into account I don't know. Why I hate the subjective nature of the offside rule, if you are on the pitch you damn well better be interfering with play, you are getting paid enough!

So yeah, from a narrative point in my head, I got away with one there

It'd be contentious IRL as to whether Kirby was trying to play the ball or not; I think FM defaults to assuming he is. But I'm not sure he is offside, and I'm not sure it's a VAR game either (are Huddersfield in the Premier League or is it an early cup round?) so I'd leave the injustice narrative to AI Huddersfield fans.   

Think the lines only show in highlights if it's chalked off by VAR which for whatever reason it obviously wasn't.

[Mandy42]

1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

It'd be contentious IRL as to whether Kirby was trying to play the ball or not; I think FM defaults to assuming he is. But I'm not sure he is offside, and I'm not sure it's a VAR game either (are Huddersfield in the Premier League or is it an early cup round?) so I'd leave the injustice narrative to AI Huddersfield fans.   

Think the lines only show in highlights if it's chalked off by VAR which for whatever reason it obviously wasn't.

It's 5th round of the FA Cup, and we as a Premier League team are at home so we are "licensed to use it" which in itself seems contentious that games in the same competition have different technology available to them depending on "the luck of the draw"

[hearth1969]

Hey all,

 

The reason I posted in the first place was to try and help because I love FM and it's so much more than a "game" to me. I really appreciate the tremendous amount of work put into this project for all these years and if I sounded offensive towards someone, then apologies, not done on purpose. I'm too old to fight over the net and too tired to try and prove Earth ain't flat. It sure feels like a sphere to me, let's leave it at that.

I just checked Steam and says I've put 714hrs in FM20. Not too bad, having a family and kids. First 650hrs or so were nothing short of joyful.

To make myself clear, I don't think the game is biased against the player. You might want to check this out, called it "Bradford MUST score" - and I manage Bradford.

 

Comedy time:

Benahmed and Todibo, valued 75mil each with Concetration/Decisions of 16 etc etc. Score at 0-0 in the 19th minute of the game. No fatigue or stress whatsoever. Benahmed starts a counter, then stops for no reason, probably thinking "Nah, I'll just pass it back among this group of players all running towards me". My striker misses. Keeper on the resulting free kick tells Todibo "Here mate, get the ball and please make sure you pass to their other striker because the first one missed". Todibo is only happy to oblige.

Won't be doing any more postings in this thread, thank you for having me. Like I said, I don't just like FM, I love it. Thank you for making a tremendous game and please keep making it better each year.

[Federico]

Well... this is hard to counter, ain't it?

[Mandy42]

3 hours ago, Federico said:

Well... this is hard to counter, ain't it?

Just how Pep drew it up! 

[Federico]

1 ora fa, Mandy42 ha scritto:

Just how Pep drew it up! 

Yeah I bet so

But I meant... this will be hard to counter with some valid argument explaining that what happened has some logic. To be honest I've never been that unlucky to witness such an amazing wonder, but I played enough to watch, powerless, many similar instances like that. Again, forcing myself to steer away from realism and actually realise this is a game, saved my money to be spent for yet another desk

[Mandy42]

Yeah, having come to this thread and talked it out and seen other perspectives, it's saved my keyboard at the very least.

Finally played my game in hand over Man City, a win would have taken us top of the table. We drew 0-0 against 17th placed Palace. Their keeper made 7 fantastic saves. Is there a voice in their saying "the game doesn't want me to win the league blah blah blah" yeah, but it's a lot quieter.

There is also a voice in there that wasn't there before saying "well we played really well and we had 7 shots on target, on another day we'd have come away with a big win, their keeper was just up for it today" And pick ourselves up and go again against Brighton in 3 days time

[robinthebest]

gegenpressing beats all the tactics says it all, the game is all about high tempo high pressing

[Guest]

1 hour ago, robinthebest said:

gegenpressing beats all the tactics says it all, the game is all about high tempo high pressing

According to the JSON file, yes.

[Federico]

But haven't you said the opposite in another thread? Or maybe I just misunderstood?

 

[Fosse]

Are there fake shots in the ME? I  can’t recall ever seeing one 

[aj6658]

I think the ME needs a complete overhaul. This ME has been in place for more than 10 years. Yes its had extensive revisions and updates but at the end of the day its framework and core are essentially the same. The football ideas 10 years ago have evolved and to expect the same dated technology to keep up is unrealistic.  There is only so much you can add and tweak before you need to overhaul the engine.

 

My issues

• Why is it, that when you set up a tactic where you have players switching (e.g. Wingers switching flanks) that it breaks the game if you change players or formations. This has been an issue for years. For example if i have switching wingers in a 4-3-2-1 and then decide  to go for a 4-3-1-2 (this is a different saved tactic not just making in game adjustments to the current tactic). I make Sancho a false 9 and sub Rashford for Fred, the game still swaps Sancho with Fred throughout the game. Its even worse when you decide to change formations completely. I've had it where i've changed to a back 3 and have had a striker and defender swapping just because of the way i subbed and arranged.
• Strikers movement is terrible at times and doesnt make sense. If we are on the counter and my midfielder is driving towards goal, my striker (who is faster) should be looking to dovetail to create more space for the midfielder or look to break lines to get through on goal. But the game all too often has the strike slow down and end by behind the midfielder. For example if we win it in the centre circle my striker will jog and end up being 20m behind playing as a midfielder. Theres a difference between making the wrong decision (based on player intelligence) and a broken decision. How many times have you ever seen that in a real game?  
• Instructions are continuously ignored. I don't have any tall strikers so i dont want floated balls. I want them driven in hard and low or even cut back. So why is it that whatever i do, my full backs always float the more far too often. 
• The amount of one-on-ones missed is too high and unrealistic. The amount of defence splitting passed from defence from decent players is too many. I get in real games this happens but not to the extent i have seen
• You are far more likely to win by just having a high press making tactical set up obsolete. I could play with a newly promoted team and play high octane pressing football and i will do well even if my players are below quality.  Tiredness has little impact on the game other than increasing injuries.  They need to make it more obvious that when a player is playing week in, week out that they wont perform as well. 

[safcrhys]

I’m fed up of having 20-30 shots per game, 15 on target and drawing 1-1 thanks to an opposition goal from an indirect free kick. Seems to happen every other game.

[yolixeya]

On 03/07/2020 at 18:32, Federico said:

Well... this is hard to counter, ain't it?

Yes. Because other players defend the game just for the sake of it and they need to find ridiculous excuses for it. 

It isn't even that bad. It is extremely unfortunate because it happened twice in a row but at leest it is clear what happened even from limited graphical engine.

But I have seen mistakes represented worse like this one from my GK. Even defenders had a terrible reaction but I don't blame them because they were confused with what my GK tried to pull off, 

[dudek1]

On 02/07/2020 at 18:15, yolixeya said:

That was just my experience with it. And I was too lazy to change who marks tall player when I rotate the squad so sometimes it would be someone who is poor in the air. So I let that the game pick who marks who and I just set the players I want to mark zonally specific area. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it but you could give it a try.

Thanks for the advice. Part of me as an actual football manager cant bring myself to do that. My 2 CB's are always monsters, and i cant help but want to be telling them all week at training ''you two mark the two tallest guys who come forward, everyone else mark whoever you can and lets have a couple of zones sorted''. If i don't actually tell them to mark Tall Player, and the big CB for the opponents score, i will be sat in front of my laptop as the one the blame! At least this way i can put it down to some kind of glitch and not feel like a failure!

 

I have gone half way and only have my tallest player with 'Mark Tall player', everyone else who i would like to mark has 'go back' except my second tallest player who has 'Man Mark'. Typically at home to Burnley just now in my first game since submitting my post here, my tall guy decided to mark the 6ft midfielder. My other CB with just 'Mark Player' marked the 6ft 2 CB and my 5ft 10 CM with 'go back' marked the other 6ft 2 CB. Of course the corner was right on the head of the guy against my CM and he scored with ease. This time the size difference isn't too bad, but i would still expect the one guy who has been told to mark Tall Player to pick up at least 1 of the 2 tallest opponents. Hey ho, back to the training ground where i will continue to give instructions to what appears to be a group of brick walls

[Overmars]

"Broken" is indeed harsh, but it is a word that comes to mind when an AI opponent decides they are just going to pass among themselves in their own half all game. I just played a match against top of the table Rangers (we are a slightly lower rep club), and the image below shows all 60 passes the Rangers GK received. The match ended 0-0 with a total of two key passes from both teams combined. I was using a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide with a very urgent high press, but it was impossible to pressure the AI enough to clear the ball.

As an experiment, I played the same match again using a 4-2-3-1 and experienced the same anti-football from Rangers. So then I went down a rabbit hole to see what it took to get Rangers from repeatedly passing back to their keeper. A 4-3-3 narrow was about the only thing that could do it. The most interesting test result was when Rangers suffered a red card in the 5th minute and yet were still able to achieve 65% possession (and 40 GK passes) in the first half against my high pressing 4-2-3-1. Honestly, that's just a nonsense result that reveals how it is far too easy for teams to keep the ball between their CDs and GK.

[yolixeya]

21 hours ago, dudek1 said:

Part of me as an actual football manager cant bring myself to do that. My 2 CB's are always monsters, and i cant help but want to be telling them all week at training ''you two mark the two tallest guys who come forward, everyone else mark whoever you can and lets have a couple of zones sorted''.

I would put my CBs to mark tall players but I fear that AI would score goals from corners taiming at 6 yard box. That is where I assign 2 CBs and DM who is also grat in the air. And it is working great for corners, never had problems with it. I struggled more with indirect free kicks in the past but I managed to concede none in my last seson before I left club.

[dunk105]

7 hours ago, Overmars said:

"Broken" is indeed harsh, but it is a word that comes to mind when an AI opponent decides they are just going to pass among themselves in their own half all game. I just played a match against top of the table Rangers (we are a slightly lower rep club), and the image below shows all 60 passes the Rangers GK received. The match ended 0-0 with a total of two key passes from both teams combined. I was using a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide with a very urgent high press, but it was impossible to pressure the AI enough to clear the ball.

As an experiment, I played the same match again using a 4-2-3-1 and experienced the same anti-football from Rangers. So then I went down a rabbit hole to see what it took to get Rangers from repeatedly passing back to their keeper. A 4-3-3 narrow was about the only thing that could do it. The most interesting test result was when Rangers suffered a red card in the 5th minute and yet were still able to achieve 65% possession (and 40 GK passes) in the first half against my high pressing 4-2-3-1. Honestly, that's just a nonsense result that reveals how it is far too easy for teams to keep the ball between their CDs and GK.

Seeing this a lot too- the matches are extremely tedious particularly when you've built a winning team. I don't even use downloaded tactics and have tried to be a bit more pragmatic but as the opposing team doesn't even come out you still hit the same brick wall as if you were pressing high up the pitch. Also as you say an issue with this is that the press isn't good enough to get into the defence who are passing it around at the back, watching pressing in FM20 is just players running around, not pressing in groups (well apart from ST and AMC closing down the keeper which is a known bug) or shutting down passing lanes .

I win most games but its a pattern of get an opener or two from set pieces and then in the last 15-20 minutes when the opponent actually comes out I might get a goal or two from open play and even then its just the repetitive cross to back post for a header- despite me having low crosses set and my wingers and wingbacks not having any traits to suggest they should ignore it . Crossing itself is terrible as there seems to be no difference in what the players do no matter what the instruction is- they either cross to the back post or cut it back to a midfielder, ignoring the striker and AMC i've got waiting centrally.

Have given up trying to play through the middle in any way as the player intelligence in terms of attacking centrally is woeful, its fair enough and pretty realistic that defending deep is effective but on the flipside world class players should have the tools to unlock defences- there are no clever dinked passes, no (or just occasional) precision through balls on the deck splitting a defence, never seen a 1-2 even though I try and train all my players to have this. Its truly terrible. I don't care if these things come off or not- it'd just be nice to see some varied creativity in the game.

 

[roykela]

8 hours ago, Overmars said:

"Broken" is indeed harsh, but it is a word that comes to mind when an AI opponent decides they are just going to pass among themselves in their own half all game. I just played a match against top of the table Rangers (we are a slightly lower rep club), and the image below shows all 60 passes the Rangers GK received. The match ended 0-0 with a total of two key passes from both teams combined. I was using a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide with a very urgent high press, but it was impossible to pressure the AI enough to clear the ball.

As an experiment, I played the same match again using a 4-2-3-1 and experienced the same anti-football from Rangers. So then I went down a rabbit hole to see what it took to get Rangers from repeatedly passing back to their keeper. A 4-3-3 narrow was about the only thing that could do it. The most interesting test result was when Rangers suffered a red card in the 5th minute and yet were still able to achieve 65% possession (and 40 GK passes) in the first half against my high pressing 4-2-3-1. Honestly, that's just a nonsense result that reveals how it is far too easy for teams to keep the ball between their CDs and GK.

 

31 minutes ago, dunk105 said:

Seeing this a lot too- the matches are extremely tedious particularly when you've built a winning team. I don't even use downloaded tactics and have tried to be a bit more pragmatic but as the opposing team doesn't even come out you still hit the same brick wall as if you were pressing high up the pitch. Also as you say an issue with this is that the press isn't good enough to get into the defence who are passing it around at the back, watching pressing in FM20 is just players running around, not pressing in groups (well apart from ST and AMC closing down the keeper which is a known bug) or shutting down passing lanes .

I win most games but its a pattern of get an opener or two from set pieces and then in the last 15-20 minutes when the opponent actually comes out I might get a goal or two from open play and even then its just the repetitive cross to back post for a header- despite me having low crosses set and my wingers and wingbacks not having any traits to suggest they should ignore it . Crossing itself is terrible as there seems to be no difference in what the players do no matter what the instruction is- they either cross to the back post or cut it back to a midfielder, ignoring the striker and AMC i've got waiting centrally.

Have given up trying to play through the middle in any way as the player intelligence in terms of attacking centrally is woeful, its fair enough and pretty realistic that defending deep is effective but on the flipside world class players should have the tools to unlock defences- there are no clever dinked passes, no (or just occasional) precision through balls on the deck splitting a defence, never seen a 1-2 even though I try and train all my players to have this. Its truly terrible. I don't care if these things come off or not- it'd just be nice to see some varied creativity in the game.

 

Decided to check here as well what the numbers are for the GKs received passes in my game, so i checked my last 5 matches, with Roma, plus the game v Inter, because they are on top of Serie A
I also added my tactical setup:





I'm in 2nd on 22nd December and i find the comparison interesting, as those numbers with Rangers are nowhere near the numbers i find in my game.
A better comparison would probably have been to take Rangers in my game, but i can't see the numbers there due to the detail levels, so i'm using my own team.
But i do find myself often reading these posts and wondering if i'm playing the same game. Those numbers people mention and/or show are not remotely close to what i see here.
Same with headers, set pieces and 1v1s.

Players are given through balls, forward hitting the ball over the GK far out, forward rounding the keeper, clever 1-touch play, 1-2 play, squaring the ball for the guy inside the area etc.
Most of my assists come from my wingers but that's exactly what i want from my team and that's how i've set it up. With the right players there, of course.

And it's not a dig at anyone. I'm genuinely curious. Why is it so different here from those aforementioned others and vice versa?

[Overmars]

34 minutes ago, roykela said:

I'm in 2nd on 22nd December and i find the comparison interesting, as those numbers with Rangers are nowhere near the numbers i find in my game.
A better comparison would probably have been to take Rangers in my game, but i can't see the numbers there due to the detail levels, so i'm using my own team.
But i do find myself often reading these posts and wondering if i'm playing the same game. Those numbers people mention and/or show are not remotely close to what i see here.
Same with headers, set pieces and 1v1s.

Players are given through balls, forward hitting the ball over the GK far out, forward rounding the keeper, clever 1-touch play, 1-2 play, squaring the ball for the guy inside the area etc.
Most of my assists come from my wingers but that's exactly what i want from my team and that's how i've set it up. With the right players there, of course.

And it's not a dig at anyone. I'm genuinely curious. Why is it so different here from those aforementioned others and vice versa?

At this point in my save, Rangers are managed by Colin Calderwood whose managerial tendencies are "Sit back and protect a lead" and "Plays out of defence." A lot of AI managers do not have those tendencies and will actually attempt to cross the halfway line. This was Rangers' eighth match of the season, and they have yet to concede a single goal. I love that they have an in-game personality and style, but I think it is too extreme and effective to pass to your keeper >50 times in order to kill time.

[roykela]

15 minutes ago, Overmars said:

At this point in my save, Rangers are managed by Colin Calderwood whose managerial tendencies are "Sit back and protect a lead" and "Plays out of defence." A lot of AI managers do not have those tendencies and will actually attempt to cross the halfway line. This was Rangers' eighth match of the season, and they have yet to concede a single goal. I love that they have an in-game personality and style, but I think it is too extreme and effective to pass to your keeper >50 times in order to kill time.

That would make sense then. Too extreme might possibly be.
Sit back and protect the lead AND play out of defense though, which they're probably very good at, compared to the rest of the league....why wouldn't they do it?
What seemingly matters to Rangers are the points. Well, what matters to Calderwood, to be more precise, and not goals.
If they're better than most of the other teams (of course i don't know if they are in your game) then scoring a goal on them would be very hard, if they would get the first goal.


In my game Stuttgart's manager Colin Kazim-Richards likes to sit back and protect a lead as well. But does not have the "plays out of defence" tendency.
Stuttgart won that game 2-1 with their 2nd coming in the 76th.
After that their GK received just 4 passes. Plays out of defence certainly seems like it plays a big role but i get the feeling there's more to it than just those tendencies.
 

[Pasonen]

1 hour ago, roykela said:

I'm in 2nd on 22nd December and i find the comparison interesting, as those numbers with Rangers are nowhere near the numbers i find in my game.

Its because this happens when attacking usually higher reputation team uses very high LOE and higher defline and extremely urgent pressing intensity. Defensive team goes cautious or less mentality and they cant make passes fwd at all because lower mentalities take less risks with passes. In earlier versions of game cautious mentality defenders would have hoofed ball to st's even with short passes set on. Now they move ball back to gk and clear ball over sideline. So your tactic is not aggressive enough in terms of pressing to get this cautious ball passing out of oppisition. I'm not aggressive presser neither so this is not a problem for me too.

[Pasonen]

2 hours ago, dunk105 said:

Seeing this a lot too- the matches are extremely tedious particularly when you've built a winning team. I don't even use downloaded tactics and have tried to be a bit more pragmatic but as the opposing team doesn't even come out you still hit the same brick wall as if you were pressing high up the pitch.

How high you pressed in this game? Or is it really the manager tendency because they pass around in own area.

[roykela]

3 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Its because this happens when attacking usually higher reputation team uses very high LOE and higher defline and extremely urgent pressing intensity. Defensive team goes cautious or less mentality and they cant make passes fwd at all because lower mentalities take less risks with passes. In earlier versions of game cautious mentality defenders would have hoofed ball to st's even with short passes set on. Now they move ball back to gk and clear ball over sideline. So your tactic is not aggressive enough in terms of pressing to get this cautious ball passing out of oppisition. I'm not aggressive presser neither so this is not a problem for me too.

That's what i was thinking too. And if Rangers (in this case) are good with the ball, having good movement off the ball with great teamwork/cohesion and good decision-making, it would be very hard taking the ball off them.
They could just move the ball around infinitely, so to speak, and secure the 3 points.

[Overmars]

13 hours ago, roykela said:

That's what i was thinking too. And if Rangers (in this case) are good with the ball, having good movement off the ball with great teamwork/cohesion and good decision-making, it would be very hard taking the ball off them.
They could just move the ball around infinitely, so to speak, and secure the 3 points.

It doesn't seem to matter much how good they are. Rangers doesn't have great ball playing defenders, and their keeper is nothing special. I played a match against Hibs, and they were using the same time wasting approach with a mediocre team. After the first 15 minutes, the Hibs keeper had 24 passes! I was forced to alter my formation to something ridiculous (3 attacking midfielders + 2 forwards) to prevent Hibs from having 70% possession and killing the game before it even started.

The key problem in all of this is that the pressing team does not push up enough, even with extremely urgent pressing, a very high line of engagement, and high work rate players. Once the time wasting team passes back to their keeper, a pressing team should be pushing up to the defenders and forcing the keeper to play it long. In FM20, this does not happen. The keeper can still play to defenders because the pressing team never pushes up high enough to take away the passing lanes. "Prevent shot GK distribution" as an instruction only seems to make the matter worse because two players rush to the keeper, the keeper still gets the pass away, and the defenders now have even more space in which to play keep away.