FM2017: Please fix the Half-Back Mechanism!!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hey everyone, hope you're enjoying the FM 2017 beta!

Unfortunately, it took less than 6 minutes of my first match to notice that the Half-Back role has still not been fixed. Seen as we're still in the beta phase, I'm hoping something can be done.

I posted about this last year, so it's not a new issue:

 

What's the problem?

When you play a Half-Back in front of a flat back four, he drops in between the centre backs but the centre backs don't fan out so it's highly congested, easy to press and provides zero benefit.

Example: Simple, 4-3-3 system using Barcelona

Sergio Busquets, in my opinion, is the stereotypical Half-Back. In fact I'm pretty sure his role in Guardiola's 4-3-3 was the reason the role was created.

The screenshot above shows Busquets dropping between my centre backs, but then the centre backs failing to fan out. The opposition No. 9 is showing just how easy to press that is.

 

What should happen?

This.

It's a technique for building possession from deep called La Salida Lavolpiana - http://www.martiperarnau.com/tactica/la-salida-lavolpiana/. Made famous by Guardiola but used by a lot of top coaches.

In simple terms this is the mechanism of a 4-man defence evolving into a 3-man defence, allowing the fullbacks to push forward and aiding ball circulation (illustrated clearly, on Zonal Marking)

As I'm sure you can see, it's a particularly effective method of getting your players in space and allowing you to build up an attack effectively.

The screenshot above is what happens when you simply push your fullbacks into the wingback strata, like so:

 

Why is this a problem?

1. Formations are your defensive shape. Do you really want to play a 'back two' in a league with the likes of Ronaldo and Bale on the flanks??
2. The wingbacks regularly push too far up, making themselves unavailable for the ball and playing right on top of attacking midfielders.
3. It means you can't play a 4-1-4-1 variant as the WBL/R would be right on top of the MR/ML, not to mention any other number of variants people may dream up.

 

What's the solution?

The fullbacks are positioned correctly in the 4-3-3 build up, you just need the centre backs to fan wide as they do in the 2-3-2-3.

 

Resolving this issue would open lots of very interesting doors tactically and make the game much more appealing.

[herne79]

Was about to suggest you raise this in the Beta Bugs Forum but see you have done it. 

[yonko]

So the problem is not with the actual Half Back role per se, but rather with the behavior of the Central Defenders when the role is used.

Personally I used the 2-3-2-3 in FM16 and now exactly the same one in FM17 and have no issues with it while using HB role. My WB are on Support Duty and they provide a nice balance between defense and attack.

[callamity]

Is this on very fluid?  

 

I was hoping to use the half back in my take of a 4231. I assume that they fan out better the higher the fluidity and mentalit?  

 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

40 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Was about to suggest you raise this in the Beta Bugs Forum but see you have done it. 

 

Yep, realised that I'm 3 seconds after clicking submit!

 

20 minutes ago, yonko said:

So the problem is not with the actual Half Back role per se, but rather with the behavior of the Central Defenders when the role is used.

Personally I used the 2-3-2-3 in FM16 and now exactly the same one in FM17 and have no issues with it while using HB role. My WB are on Support Duty and they provide a nice balance between defense and attack.

 

The fundamental problem is that given formations are your defensive shape, wing backs just leave way too much space in behind. They're also regularly right on top of my attackers so it's not great in either defence or attack, in my opinion.

 

6 minutes ago, callamity said:

Is this on very fluid?  

 

I was hoping to use the half back in my take of a 4231. I assume that they fan out better the higher the fluidity and mentalit?  

 

 

 

Yes, very fluid. It's clearly a mechanism in the match engine rather than a question of certain instructions. The examples above are identical tactics aside from the fullbacks and look at the difference.

They just need to make the centre-backs act as they do in a 2-man defence, when you're playing a 4-man defence.

[yonko]

I haven't noticed a difference in defense between the FB position and WB position. Therefore for me it is no problem to play 2-3-2-3 formation. But I agree with you that SI needs to work on the CBs positioning in a 4-man defense when using HB role in front of them. 

[MBarbaric]

except 4 never really drops so deep to be in the line with two center backs while team is in their defensive zone and try to evade pressing and transition forward. if he was, that would nullify the idea of build up as he wouldn't really be passing option if he was sitting in line with two center backs. instead, he would drop deeper but still in a way to form a triangle with centerbacks and provide passing angles and help the build up.

depending on opposition, or manager, 4 might drop deeper once ball reaches the middle third to form a back tree. 

[callamity]

17 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

Yep, realised that I'm 3 seconds after clicking submit!

 

 

The fundamental problem is that given formations are your defensive shape, wing backs just leave way too much space in behind. They're also regularly right on top of my attackers so it's not great in either defence or attack, in my opinion.

 

 

Yes, very fluid. It's clearly a mechanism in the match engine rather than a question of certain instructions. The examples above are identical tactics aside from the fullbacks and look at the difference.

They just need to make the centre-backs act as they do in a 2-man defence, when you're playing a 4-man defence.

Is this on very fluid?  

 

I was hoping to use the half back in my take of a 4231. I assume that they fan out better the higher the fluidity and mentalit?  

 

Let's hope they respond to your feedback then. 

 

I used to get the libero to play the way a half back should but can't remember how or if it would still work the same.

[Anaconda Vice]

This really needs to be addressed. I have tried to implement it myself and the CB's are just too narrow with the HB. As Ozil says it works ok with the WB's in the DM Strata but in the defence strata it simply doesn't.

[tejas]

Be even better if wingers would actually hug the touchline when in possession as well.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

I haven't noticed a difference in defense between the FB position and WB position. Therefore for me it is no problem to play 2-3-2-3 formation. But I agree with you that SI needs to work on the CBs positioning in a 4-man defense when using HB role in front of them. 

 

It'd also be nice to use a Half-Back in other systems such as a 4-1-4-1, which with the current mechanism would involve a WBR/L directly behind a MR/ML.

... or a counter-attacking system with a Half-Back. You're hardly going to sit deep and counter with spaces open behind your wingbacks!

 

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

except 4 never really drops so deep to be in the line with two center backs while team is in their defensive zone and try to evade pressing and transition forward. if he was, that would nullify the idea of build up as he wouldn't really be passing option if he was sitting in line with two center backs. instead, he would drop deeper but still in a way to form a triangle with centerbacks and provide passing angles and help the build up.

depending on opposition, or manager, 4 might drop deeper once ball reaches the middle third to form a back tree. 

 

Sorry, I haven't quite got you - what are you referring to with 'except'?

When the opposition is in possession the Half-Back should sit in front of the back four acting as a typical Defensive Midfielder. In fact, the Half-Back is only really any different to a standard Defensive Midfielder when his team are in possession, in their own third (or as you say, sometimes higher).

When in possession, in the attacking 3rd the Half-Back should resume his DM position to create an option for recycling possession and guard against the counter.

[yonko]

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

It'd also be nice to use a Half-Back in other systems such as a 4-1-4-1, which with the current mechanism would involve a WBR/L directly behind a MR/ML.

... or a counter-attacking system with a Half-Back. You're hardly going to sit deep and counter with spaces open behind your wingbacks!

I agree, it would be nice to use the HB role in other formations like the 4-1-4-1. However, I'm not sure that role is suitable for counter-attacking system. IMO that role is useful for creating numerical advantage during the build-up phase and for recovering possession.

[tyler16]

This is the type of thing they need to focus on. Instead...

[pedrosantos]

Same goes for the Inverted Wing-Back mechanism, not sufficient as midfielder.

[thejay]

 I fully support this post, the center backs not splitting makes the half back role basically redundant.

 

Why would you have one but not the other?

[swansongs]

Your players are very deep in the "wrong" pictures. I'm not sure I have a problem with my central defenders coming in that narrow when under pressure in my own 18 yard box. Ideally the fullbacks would have dropped off as well to provide passing outlets. If your centrebacks had split each defender would be marked by a pressing attacker and one small mistake would see you concede. 

If the split wasn't happening 20 yards further up the pitch that would be another thing entirely.

[thejay]

10 hours ago, tejas said:

Be even better if wingers would actually hug the touchline when in possession as well.

Thats another big issue as well, they always come inside despite being told not to

[Anaconda Vice]

1 hour ago, swansongs said:

Your players are very deep in the "wrong" pictures. I'm not sure I have a problem with my central defenders coming in that narrow when under pressure in my own 18 yard box. Ideally the fullbacks would have dropped off as well to provide passing outlets. If your centrebacks had split each defender would be marked by a pressing attacker and one small mistake would see you concede. 

If the split wasn't happening 20 yards further up the pitch that would be another thing entirely.

That's what should happen. Barca's CB's in real life with Busquets are not cramped together as they are in the "wrong" picture. They are spread apart. As has been said though, this spread only occurs when the wing backs are in the DM Strata.

[MBarbaric]

this is how barca looks in real life... is it a half back, that is another question... 

[herne79]

Before we get into a technical debate about who does or doesn't do something in real life, the Half Back role in FM17 (and previous iterations) doesn't really work as intended in all situations.  It's therefore correct to raise it as a bug report.

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and everyone else, please upload pkm examples into the created bug report thread found here https://community.sigames.com/topic/382391-half-back-mechanism-w-4-man-defence/.  The more examples the better, and if you read hunt3r's comments in there you'll see why .

Thanks @Anaconda Vice .

[thejay]

55 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

this is how barca looks in real life... is it a half back, that is another question... 

 

 

No it is not, Enrique does not play out the same like Guardiola did.

 

 

[AFCBeer]

Not sure it's the HB role itself which is bugged. It does drop between the DC's as the screenshots illustrate. A few other play making roles also do the same, even from the MC strata. 

For me, the problem is the Play out of Defence TI. I think this is what should cause the DC's to split wide rather than whatever role you play in front. Perhaps it's just me but I don't see PooD having much impact if you already play fairly short. Improving this TI to how teams IRL play from the back would be better than adjusting certain player roles. 

[MBarbaric]

53 minutes ago, thejay said:

 

 

No it is not, Enrique does not play out the same like Guardiola did.

 

 

well this is how guardiola plays with city. problem here is that we have some half back roles that even guardiola doesn't know what it is. in the end it is simply a player that connects the defence and midfield helping the transition from defensive zone into the middle third. however, one can not look at that one player as it would't work if positioning of all players in the squad isn't taken into consideration. crucial isn't the "half back" but positioning of the rest of the players who are all very wide and far from each other. this ensures that any team trying to press it is going to need to cover bigger distances or employ more players to do the job. that, in theory would make it easier for the team on the ball to break the pressing.

this dropping between the centerbacks might or might not happen depending on the manager, what he wants, and the opposition. in general, fm is lagging behind in representing anything similar to what actually happens on the pitch. Especially in the build up phase or transition from defence into the middle third. The reason for that is that, firstly, game lacks pressing that would represent anything we see in real.

 

 

 

[MBarbaric]

44 minutes ago, AFCBeer said:

 

For me, the problem is the Play out of Defence TI. I think this is what should cause the DC's to split wide rather than whatever role you play in front. Perhaps it's just me but I don't see PooD having much impact if you already play fairly short. Improving this TI to how teams IRL play from the back would be better than adjusting certain player roles. 

This

[yonko]

Yep, I second that the POOD instruction should have that effect on the team.

[Anaconda Vice]

I'm unsure as to how we would go about demonstrating the TI not working properly. Some people may be happy with how the play out of defence is already. Seems it just affects this particular style of play we want to see :/

[MBarbaric]

3 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

I'm unsure as to how we would go about demonstrating the TI not working properly. Some people may be happy with how the play out of defence is already. Seems it just affects this particular style of play we want to see :/

i don't have fm17 but if you take 433 formation with DM (sort of what guardiola uses in city atm), set POOD instruction and take a screenshot of transition from defence to middle third you can compare it to screenshot above. even better, play a match against guardiola's city and take a look how he does it in the game versus irl

[yonko]

Well currently POOD instruction affects the passing length of the players in the back line - CDs, FBs, WBs and DMs. But it doesn't address the shape and positioning of the players. I don't is a matter of the instruction not working properly now, but rather more about what the instruction can and should evolve into in the future ME incarnations. 

[herne79]

Stay on topic please.

[thejay]

3 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

well this is how guardiola plays with city. problem here is that we have some half back roles that even guardiola doesn't know what it is. in the end it is simply a player that connects the defence and midfield helping the transition from defensive zone into the middle third. however, one can not look at that one player as it would't work if positioning of all players in the squad isn't taken into consideration. crucial isn't the "half back" but positioning of the rest of the players who are all very wide and far from each other. this ensures that any team trying to press it is going to need to cover bigger distances or employ more players to do the job. that, in theory would make it easier for the team on the ball to break the pressing.

this dropping between the centerbacks might or might not happen depending on the manager, what he wants, and the opposition. in general, fm is lagging behind in representing anything similar to what actually happens on the pitch. Especially in the build up phase or transition from defence into the middle third. The reason for that is that, firstly, game lacks pressing that would represent anything we see in real.

 

 

 

It's not a good example when Fernando plays,  as Guardiola plays out of defense differently compared to when Fernandinho plays who drops much deeper. 

 

Also it depends on what the opposition does. 

 

 

The half back role  should be different  from the other dm roles you when you want to play out like your picture,  you use the dm role. 

 

Half back role specifically describes a certain behaviour,  namely the dm becoming a third center back. 

 

This only makes sense when the other center backs react to that and spread out 

[MBarbaric]

4 minutes ago, thejay said:

It's not a good example when Fernando plays,  as Guardiola plays out of defense differently compared to when Fernandinho plays who drops much deeper. 

I think you might be looking at it too rigidly. anyone plays that role as players are rotating. In that particular match it was Fernandinho playing it (as always), however all 3 midfielders rotate so anyone can end up in that position. What is problem with FM is that when POOB is used ME doesn't employ correct positioning (i.e. spreading out the players in defensive line like very wide horse shoe). 

Half back, as conceived by SI, shouldn't have no business dropping between the center backs in defensive zone when team is on the ball. That would only hurt the team and negate the idea of having passing options. However, he should be dropping between center backs once team reaches the middle third and consolidates for entering the attacking third so team has more stability but only when opposition leaves two players in attack (not tracking back). 

[thejay]

2 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

I think you might be looking at it too rigidly. anyone plays that role as players are rotating. In that particular match it was Fernandinho playing it (as always), however all 3 midfielders rotate so anyone can end up in that position. What is problem with FM is that when POOB is used ME doesn't employ correct positioning (i.e. spreading out the players in defensive line like very wide horse shoe). 

Half back, as conceived by SI, shouldn't have no business dropping between the center backs in defensive zone when team is on the ball. That would only hurt the team and negate the idea of having passing options. However, he should be dropping between center backs once team reaches the middle third and consolidates for entering the attacking third so team has more stability but only when opposition leaves two players in attack (not tracking back). 

 

 

No Fernandinho played here as one of the 2 nr 8s or 10s. 

 

Fernando is not good on the ball thats why when he plays he does not drop as deep as he cant really be trusted to play out the ball correctly.

 

The half back should indeed drop between the center backs when play out of the back against two strikers, the center backs should then spread wide, if you decide to play that role as a coach it should be your decision.

 

The issue is that the match engine does not really recreate that role correctly currently.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

Before we get into a technical debate about who does or doesn't do something in real life, the Half Back role in FM17 (and previous iterations) doesn't really work as intended in all situations.  It's therefore correct to raise it as a bug report.

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and everyone else, please upload pkm examples into the created bug report thread found here https://community.sigames.com/topic/382391-half-back-mechanism-w-4-man-defence/.  The more examples the better, and if you read hunt3r's comments in there you'll see why .

Thanks @Anaconda Vice .

Done.

[Ji-Sung Park]

Might as well ask here before making a thread;

How about the defensive forward role? Any changes to this one? I would like to see the DF be more defensive minded out of possession.

[herne79]

57 minutes ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

Might as well ask here before making a thread;

How about the defensive forward role? Any changes to this one? I would like to see the DF be more defensive minded out of possession.

Best to keep the thread on topic really, especially as it's raised in the Bugs forum and SI have been reading.  Thanks.

[Ji-Sung Park]

28 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Best to keep the thread on topic really, especially as it's raised in the Bugs forum and SI have been reading.  Thanks.

10-4.

[LPQR]

has anyone managed to find a role/player instruction combination that works similar to the half-back for the time being?

[yonko]

Try DLP-D and see if you like the look of it. 

Personally I use 2-3-2-3 instead and don't have problems with the wingbacks. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hmmm, I've sent a follow up post in the bugs form but - so far - no response, which is disappointing. I'd say we're being optimistic in hoping for a fix in time for the game to be released.

They're asking for some more PKMs despite the comprehensive evidence they already have. If anyone's got anymore PKM files, please post them over there. It's easy - save PKM and attach to post.

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Update from the moderators - "SI are busy".

Sadly, it doesn't look like we'll be getting a fix.

[LPQR]

8 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Update from the moderators - "SI are busy".

 what kind of argument is that? still, this is a massive issue, hope it will be addressed sooner rather than later

[yonko]

5 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Update from the moderators - "SI are busy".

Sadly, it doesn't look like we'll be getting a fix.

Just like I thought.

Never held hope that they will do something about it now. Most likely for a Winter Patch or for next year's edition.

But the answer "SI are busy" is laughable. 

[herne79]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! @LPQR @yonko @HUNT3R

Disappointing, but obviously we don't know SI's priorities.

Please keep quotes in context though, as it can lead to misunderstandings such as yonko's.

Here is the full original quote: "SI will be very busy right now. There's a game release just around the corner. They'll respond when they can."  Which is in answer to a question raised looking for an update (not a fix): "Very disappointing there's been no update on this."

Further: "Guys, seriously. There's no cop out. There's nothing sinister going on so put away the tinfoil hats. Just have a bit of patience. The thread won't go ignored."

So yeh, it would be nice if SI themselves had responded, however lack of response here (or indeed in any thread) shouldn't be taken as SI ignoring things.

[LPQR]

@herne79 thanks for clarifying

[Amarante]

So let me Drag in my two cents on the issue. 

In screenshot 1 we see where Christensen  steps into the midfield line with the ball and Reed which is the HB steps back into the defense. My LB marked by a red dot is fairly wide enough  to allow for my HB to drop in the defense line. Granted Christensen is not as far into the midfield and could say that he's still apart of the defense. On the other side though, my RB is out there with acres of space between him and Romagnoli but it also makes sense. With Christensen stepped somewhat higher than the normal defensive line and my HB dropping in. You want the team to stay compact in the defending. Hence why between the 3 of them there is not much space. If Christensen lost the ball Reed and Roma is there to press the opposition quickly enough any more space will lead to holes being in the central defense  which can be exploited.

 

In screenshot two the red arrows show where each player ended up after the initial press, again we see where Romagnlo left the defense to press the press and Reed being a good HB steps again into the defensive line to maintain the back 4. I just attribute this phase to hi being in the DM on a Defend duty. Also though, he doesn't receive the ball much in the transition, it's mostly the central defenders and my other Midfield players. He is mostly there to provide and extra cover when one of my CB push forward based on his description in FM he does that pretty well.

 

 

Screenshot #3 now shows us the build up play, keeper has the ball my HB circled by red is in line with the rest of my defense, over on the right my RB is running back to position where he should be so that the team can build out now. Time to transition. Enter Screenshot 4 which i believe is a perfect way of how the HB should play. 

The keeper pass the ball of to Roma there which is the smart move as in the previous screenshot we saw where the opp striker was pressing him. But as you can see in screenshot 4 my entire back line is evenly spread. My LB and RB are pushed slightly forward giving space for my HB to drop into the center of the back 4 which now looks like a back 5. The reason for this is that as Roma pushes forward and pass the ball to Grimaldo as illustrated in screenshot 5 the center of my defense now needs to be covered and he is offering that extra cover in case play breaks down.  

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

 @LPQR @yonko @HUNT3R

"Guys, seriously. There's no cop out. There's nothing sinister going on so put away the tinfoil hats. Just have a bit of patience. The thread won't go ignored."

I'm intrigued - what's the tinfoil hats reference?
 

=====================================================================================================

I'd almost given up on this, but I do have good news but unfortunately I have bad news.

The good news is that we have a long over-due response from SI, the bad news is that the response is repeating the issue we have reported and negating the issue as it occasionally works.
 

On 24 November 2016 at 14:51, Nic Madden said:

Thank you all for raising the examples all.

I have reviewed the examples and I have logged a few examples of things that we can improve for future versions of the game. As, the issue is not the role of HB working, it is that sometimes the central defenders may not split as wide as they could. However, using players in the RWB or the LWB slots helps this further and it works very nicely.

I have been testing internally and externally myself with a 4 man defence and sometimes there are some opportunities for the CB's to split further. However, they also do split on occasions and it does work, obviously not to the level that you all seem to expect. Instructions I have used to help this are: Setting my Full Back to be wider, Not have my GK distribute quickly, Setting my Full Backs to also get further forward. This will help give more space for the CB's to split a little further.

There have already been ideas that have been logged internally to improve things, which would be helpful in this scenario, for example: defenders splitting further from a short goal kick, as I believe this will help building from the back in general, not just to help the half back.

Cheers,

Nic

Please excuse me if I come across as frustrated, it is because I am.

Nic - perhaps you'd care upload a PKM as an example? My testing team will need at least 3 examples 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Duplicate

[RTHerringbone]

For me, it's always a question of priorities. I'd love the Half Back and IWB Roles to work, but would I rather SI fix that, or dodgy goalkeeping? Or the strange positioning of wide midfielders when defending?

SI can't fix everything, because all the bugs are hard to fix - if they weren't, they wouldn't exist in the first place. When they do commit resource to fix things, it will invariably focus on bigger problems than the Half Back, especially if some users regard it as working to an acceptable standard already. 

[TheJanitor]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The good news is that we have a long over-due response from SI, the bad news is that the response is repeating the issue we have reported and negating the issue as it occasionally works.

But he did say "I have logged a few examples of things that we can improve for future versions of the game". Now, I have no history dealing with SI with those sort of issues, and I do agree that the problems you have stated in you opening post render the HB role obsolete, as well as the fact that it took way too long to get a proper reply from them. However, I don't think it was realistic to expect this issue to be sorted before the next big patch anyway (although personally, I wouldn't get my hopes up until FM18), so you could just give them the benefit of the doubt here?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 hours ago, RTHerringbone said:

For me, it's always a question of priorities. I'd love the Half Back and IWB Roles to work, but would I rather SI fix that, or dodgy goalkeeping? Or the strange positioning of wide midfielders when defending?

SI can't fix everything, because all the bugs are hard to fix - if they weren't, they wouldn't exist in the first place. When they do commit resource to fix things, it will invariably focus on bigger problems than the Half Back, especially if some users regard it as working to an acceptable standard already. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I've never seen any communication from SI that says it'd be difficult to fix?

I'm no programmer so I have no idea but I don't see why it is so complicated given that it works perfectly with wing-backs, just apply the same mechanism for full-backs.

Regarding others saying it's working - as far as I am aware, I've only seen people say it works with wing-backs which is what I say in the opening post.

If there are other priorities, that's fine but that's also only speculation as we have not even had a response from SI saying that. As a loyal and long-time, paying customer I don't think that a response is too much to ask for. If that response is, "yes we understand the issue but a fix is complicated and our current priority is x so we can't fix this until 2018 / 2019 / 2045", so be it. But at least respond.

Based on what I have actually seen from SI nothing is being done and my impression is that they're taking advantage of a loyal base who have already purchased the game, which is a real shame. More importantly, I have some ideas I'd like to implement using a half-back!!