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Definitely needs to be looked into. Surely we can't have to go another year without this working properly. It works fine when the wing backs are in the DM Strata but not in the Defence Strata.

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HUNT3R   

Guys, SI will be aware of issues. If you have issues, please report them as per the stickied threads with PKM examples. 

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HalfBack.png

Here is an example from a game I am playing now. Krychowiak has slotted into the middle of Marquinhos and Silva but they have failed to spread out as much as they should. Ideally they should spread out towards where the arrows are going. As Ozil says it is easy for the opposition to press as it is.

I am playing a flat back 4 with HB in front.

Edited by Anaconda Vice

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HUNT3R   
8 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

HalfBack.png

Here is an example from a game I am playing now. Krychowiak has slotted into the middle of Marquinhos and Silva but they have failed to spread out as much as they should. Ideally they should spread out towards where the arrows are going. As Ozil says it is easy for the opposition to press as it is.

I am playing a flat back 4 with HB in front.

As said, SI will need PKM examples of times where they shold split, but dont. It's all explained in the sticky/pinned threads.

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41 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

As said, SI will need PKM examples of times where they shold split, but dont. It's all explained in the sticky/pinned threads.

Hopefully I have done this correctly.

Paris Saint-Germain v Bayern.pkm

Timed Events

17:14 - Too Narrow
17:38 - Too Narrow, ball pressed and passed back to keeper by Krychowiak
21:55 - Too Narrow again
36:58 - Too Narrow, ball pressed by Muller until passed back to keeper. Forces keeper to go long even though set to pass to centerbacks. Lose possesion to number 10.
45:48 - Again narrow, have not fanned out. Number 11 and Number 10 of opposition have lots of space to attack because of this.

I stopped watching at that point, but I can look to see if there are more occurrences if need be

 

Edited by Anaconda Vice

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HUNT3R   
12 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Will this be looked at?

Of course it will be. The ME team (and the rest too) will be flat out at work so things get hectic and they might not respond immediately, but it won't be ignored.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

Of course it will be. The ME team (and the rest too) will be flat out at work so things get hectic and they might not respond immediately, but it won't be ignored.

All I needed to here. Thanks HUNT3R.

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HUNT3R   
1 minute ago, Anaconda Vice said:

All I needed to here. Thanks HUNT3R.

More examples are always welcome though. The more the merrier, really. With most issues, a minimum of 10 (IIRC) examples is required to fully log and fix a bug, so any help will be appreciated.

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7 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

More examples are always welcome though. The more the merrier, really. With most issues, a minimum of 10 (IIRC) examples is required to fully log and fix a bug, so any help will be appreciated.

10 occurences or 10 members with same problem?

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HUNT3R   
2 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

10 occurences or 10 members with same problem?

Occurrences. It doesn't matter who has the issue.

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tyler16   

I get what you're saying HUNT3R but it's discouraging nobody from SI has even acknowledged it. Ozil posted the same thread last year. It's a vital part of build up and SI don't seem to care.

Edited by tyler16

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1 hour ago, tyler16 said:

I get what you're saying HUNT3R but it's discouraging nobody from SI has even acknowledged it. Ozil posted the same thread last year. It's a vital part of build up and SI don't seem to care.

Yes what's worrying is the fact that an SI testing guy has commented in most of the bug threads except this thread and a few others. Worrying.

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HUNT3R   
1 hour ago, tyler16 said:

I get what you're saying HUNT3R but it's discouraging nobody from SI has even acknowledged it. Ozil posted the same thread last year. It's a vital part of build up and SI don't seem to care.

You say that and then immediately show you're not getting it.

As I said, it's a crazy time of year for these testers. They're flat out working on the game. Want to help? Provide examples.

 

And @Anaconda Vice ever considered that there's more than 1 ME testing guy? Daniel (if you actually looked) is posting almost solely in the ME threads where people have performance issues.

If you're passionate about the issue, great. You can show that by helping provide examples.

 

That's the end of this tinfoil hat doom and gloom. It's simply untrue. Nothing is being dismissed. There's a single example here, only. They'll need more.

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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You say that and then immediately show you're not getting it.

As I said, it's a crazy time of year for these testers. They're flat out working on the game. Want to help? Provide examples.

 

And @Anaconda Vice ever considered that there's more than 1 ME testing guy? Daniel (if you actually looked) is posting almost solely in the ME threads where people have performance issues.

If you're passionate about the issue, great. You can show that by helping provide examples.

 

That's the end of this tinfoil hat doom and gloom. It's simply untrue. Nothing is being dismissed. There's a single example here, only. They'll need more.

Apologies, didn't mean to come across as an ass. Just as you said, passionate about the issue. I shall look to get some extra PKM's up tonight to help the ME guys.

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Thank you HUNT3R, really appreciate you commenting and helping us Moderate the forums, it is greatly appreciated.

I have taken the time to read through both the thread that Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has linked to, his wish list and also this thread.

As HUNT3R has rightly said, we need many more examples and we need the best examples that you have. Football is a beautiful game of opinions and it is clear by the thread that many of you have an opinion of how the half back role should work and you are passionate about it. Thank you for providing a pkm above with some examples, that is a great start.

In regards to the half back role itself, I happen to agree with Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s great analysis that shows the Half Back role working when the user has wing-backs and not full-backs. The example shown that it works well with wing-backs is that they are higher than the defensive line, which gives the centre backs space to split into and come a little wider, thus creating the passing options and wide needed for the half-back to work.

That being said, if you have more examples of where you think the centre backs should be splitting then please do attach them to this thread with the times and we will review them and take comments on board.

Also, please don't get disheartened if you do not get a reply to a thread as quickly as you may expect. There are a number of our users that are having graphical issues that we are trying to help at the moment as HUNT3R has said above. We always try to answer threads as best we can.

Cheers,

Nic

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Here you go. Barcelona 7 - 2 Barcelona B. Cheeky little double hat trick from Suarez for you to enjoy.

First half was the first 4-3-3 shown above. See every time Barcelona have the ball in their own third the half-back drops deep but the DCs don't fan out.

Second half was the 2-3-2-3 to show you how it should work. The half-back worked perfectly but we conceded two goals both from the flank to our B Team demonstrating why a 2-man defence is too risky. Shudder to think what'd have happened against Bale and Ronaldo.

Barcelona v Barcelona B.pkm

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

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The basic idea of a half-back is not that he drops into defence but that the centre-backs push up alongside him. If you set your CBs to mark tightly or close down a lot then they will sit more centrally to stay on the opposition's strikers. Half back works more like a sweeper in front of the defence, not an extra defender. I've had no problems (beyond having to turn of 'mark tightly' as he went roaming all over the show).

 

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Hello, another PKM with some more examples.

Paris Saint-Germain v Man City.pkm

Timed Events

1:07 - Fullbacks have advanced forwards but CB's have failed to spread as they should or would if FB's were in the DM Strata
2:22 - Same problem. Both CB's and the HB are in line with eachother but all pretty much within the width of center circle
2:51 - Again they are narrow on the center circle after regaining possession. There is no attempt to widen the distance between themselves. Aguero presses Kychowiak and he passes and we win a free kick.
5:24 - Slightly more width from the RCB Marquinhos however the LCB is still not fanning out adequately enough and the HB is too close to RCB
7:12 - RCB,HB,LCB all close to center circle again. Number 10 of Man City has lots of space to attack down the left flank of Man City's attacking half. If CB's had fanned out as expected this space would be covered and would give my team better passing options.

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5 hours ago, rothordegilian said:

The basic idea of a half-back is not that he drops into defence but that the centre-backs push up alongside him. If you set your CBs to mark tightly or close down a lot then they will sit more centrally to stay on the opposition's strikers. Half back works more like a sweeper in front of the defence, not an extra defender. I've had no problems (beyond having to turn of 'mark tightly' as he went roaming all over the show).

 

There is no issue with marking. The role works perfectly well out of possession.

The issue is build up play, in possession. The Half-Backs movement is actually correct but there needs to be a knock on effect that the centre backs fan out otherwise it is pointless.

The mechanism works with wingbacks - but adding wingbacks creates knock on problems - so I am struggling to understand how it's so difficult to translate the mechanism into a 4-man defence system.

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yonko   

The way I understand it, the mechanism is supposed to trigger the fullbacks to become more advanced and the central defenders more spread out and thus reshaping the back line to allow the spacing for the HB to drop into the back line.

I can't imagine that defensive instructions such as tight marking would affect on the ball positioning and shape. It shouldn't anyway.

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Olympique Lyonnais v Paris Saint-Germain.pkm

Another PKM with the same problem throughout. 

Some Timed Events

1:14 - CB's and HB about the width of center circle. Should be twice as wide in my opinion
2:13 - Even less width between the CB's and HB. Further proof of the lack of fanning out compared to a system with Wingbacks deployed in the DM strata.
45:09 - As above.

Further examples throughout the PKM. I just picked the start points of each half to show how prevalent the building from the back is for my team throughout the match. We build from the back from the 1st minute to the last minute multiple times. It's important this is fixed.  Happens everytime we build possession from the back. 
 

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

My guess is that they need more examples.....just to review it.

I have posted 3 PKM's and Ozil has also posted 1.

We show more than 10 examples in them.

Hopefully an update will be soon :thup:

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yonko   

Hopefully it's enough. But I suspect that is highly unlikely for them to make changes for the full release. More likely to happen in future patch/update around January after the Winter Transfer window. 

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On 26 October 2016 at 09:59, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Please could I request an update on the Half-Back issue?

Am I being overly optimistic hoping for a solution in time for the full-release?

Thank you

Guess this was missed so a quick bump to avoid slipping into oblivion.

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HUNT3R   

SI will be very busy right now. There's a game release just around the corner. They'll respond when they can.

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12 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

SI will be very busy right now. There's a game release just around the corner. They'll respond when they can.

Unfortunately this is beginning to reflect rather poorly on SI. As a long term fan of the series, I must admit that I am rather disappointed.

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Amarante   
13 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Unfortunately this is beginning to reflect rather poorly on SI. As a long term fan of the series, I must admit that I am rather disappointed.

I can understand your frustration about the lack of communication but from working on software development and have products to release. The persons who can actually comment on this will not be able to  after the release. There is a major issue going on with crashes and graphical issues that are more important than the HB role as the two problems i stated are critical to the game actually being able to being played by the masses. 

 

I would love the role to be fixed but the first thing that they need is alot more examples that what you guys have provided. What i would do is do a couple saves and try to replicate the issue after that the hard work begins why does it work with WB and why doesn't it work with a flat back 4 as thats gonna be hard to solve once it's fixed they will release it in a patch. So give them time. Right now they must prioritize game critical issues and fix those for release than fix a role. 

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34 minutes ago, Amarante said:

I would love the role to be fixed but the first thing that they need is alot more examples that what you guys have provided. What i would do is do a couple saves and try to replicate the issue after that the hard work begins why does it work with WB and why doesn't it work with a flat back 4 as thats gonna be hard to solve once it's fixed they will release it in a patch. So give them time. Right now they must prioritize game critical issues and fix those for release than fix a role. 

I'm sorry to sound harsh but that sounds like an absolute cop out:

  1. They have examples which demonstrate the problem clearly - what exactly is the purpose of providing more?
  2. The person responsible can simply open a game, click Half-Back and then they have access to infinite examples.
  3. This is now the responsibility of a paid employee. It is unfair to ask customers / the community to waste hours replicating the same issue over and over again.
  4. I have absolutely no inclination to waste hours of my life providing example after example whilst SI don't even have the dignity to respond to a customer service issue.

I apologise for the rant. This is not aimed at you - Amarante - at all. It's very frustrating. I have been a fan of Football Manager for more than 10 years and have paid good money for this years version.

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HUNT3R   

Guys, seriously. There's no cop out. There's nothing sinister going on so put away the tinfoil hats. Just have a bit of patience. The thread won't go ignored.

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Amarante   
3 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I'm sorry to sound harsh but that sounds like an absolute cop out:

  1. They have examples which demonstrate the problem clearly - what exactly is the purpose of providing more?
  2. The person responsible can simply open a game, click Half-Back and then they have access to infinite examples.
  3. This is now the responsibility of a paid employee. It is unfair to ask customers / the community to waste hours replicating the same issue over and over again.
  4. I have absolutely no inclination to waste hours of my life providing example after example whilst SI don't even have the dignity to respond to a customer service issue.

I apologise for the rant. This is not aimed at you - Amarante - at all. It's very frustrating. I have been a fan of Football Manager for more than 10 years and have paid good money for this years version.

I can understand how fustrating it is and yeah you see the problem when it comes to software and game development overall is that yeah they can replicate it by opening up a save but it becomes a whole lot harder when you have to find out in the code why its acting that way. This is a logic error and it's one of the hardest errors to fix. The thing is by having hundreds of persons doing the test it saves SI from doing this phase. In the word of game development which is my career we have alot of pressure from publishers and fans to allow the game to go out on schedule. Just give them till after the release for you to see them asking for more and more information. 

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Yea, I understand it's probably more complicated than "having the Centre Backs act the same way with Fullbacks as they do Wingbacks", however regardless of the complexity of the issue, as a paying customer, I don't think that it is too much to ask for a simple reply or update.

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I still don't think this is a problem. HB is working for me as it has done for years now.

A 3 man defence will spread to cover the wide areas but using a HB doesn't turn a 2 man defence into a 3 man defence in the same way. It will push the 2 CBs up alongside the HB and they will still act like 2 CBs, but higher up the field and with some extra cover. If you were to use an Anchor, the 2 CBs would stay central and hang back behind him. All they are doing with a HB is pushing forward 5-10 yards to join him. Think of HB as a Sweeper who drops back rather than pushes forward; in a Sweeper formation, when the Sweeper goes forward, the back 2 remain as a back 2 and don't transition into a back 3; the same applies to HB. Use a Libero and the 2 CBS won't spread wide as he comes forward with the ball, similarly they won't spread wide to accomodate a HB as he comes back to defend

If you want a 3 man defence, use a tactic that has 3 central defenders and they will spread. My 3-4-3 tactic has them spread like butter. If you have a Treq bursting forward from midfield, your strikers won't become wingers to get out of his way. Same thing.



 

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And as an aside, I can't really see the point of using a HB with a flat back 4 in the first place. Play him as an Anchor and juggle with the height of your defence.

If it helps, watch Brazil in 82. One Regista pushes forward and the other stays put. The CBs push up alongside him and if a WB goes up the pitch, they all shift along to make a 4 man defence high up the pitch. That's why he's a Half Back, not a Centre Back.

 

 

Edited by rothordegilian

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2 hours ago, rothordegilian said:

I still don't think this is a problem. HB is working for me as it has done for years now.

A 3 man defence will spread to cover the wide areas but using a HB doesn't turn a 2 man defence into a 3 man defence in the same way. It will push the 2 CBs up alongside the HB and they will still act like 2 CBs, but higher up the field and with some extra cover. If you were to use an Anchor, the 2 CBs would stay central and hang back behind him. All they are doing with a HB is pushing forward 5-10 yards to join him. Think of HB as a Sweeper who drops back rather than pushes forward; in a Sweeper formation, when the Sweeper goes forward, the back 2 remain as a back 2 and don't transition into a back 3; the same applies to HB. Use a Libero and the 2 CBS won't spread wide as he comes forward with the ball, similarly they won't spread wide to accomodate a HB as he comes back to defend

If you want a 3 man defence, use a tactic that has 3 central defenders and they will spread. My 3-4-3 tactic has them spread like butter. If you have a Treq bursting forward from midfield, your strikers won't become wingers to get out of his way. Same thing.

If you'd like to research what should happen, it's called Salida Lavolpiana (named after the coach who invented it).

It's the build-up play used by Pep Guardiola where - most famously - Busquets would drop between the centre-backs, who would fan out and allow the fullbacks to push forward switching from a 4-3-3 formation to 3-4-3 during transitions.

The idea is that it is very difficult to press so makes your build-up play more efficient. It also makes it easier to build play through the midfield rather than playing through the fullbacks.

You mention a 3-man defence. It should look very similar to a 3-man defence when in possession but a 4-man defence when defending. For example, when you're facing a wide 3-man attack it may be risky to use a 3-man defence however the build-up play is still preferable so you use a Half-Back to make the transition.

Articles

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Umm.. with the greatest of respect, half backs were around in the 1920s. You just don't understand how they work in FM.

My HB works like a dream.

You could actually try reading the description of the HB by mousing over it in the game. It will tell you where you are going wrong.

Edited by rothordegilian

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Half Back is NOT a playmaker. It's a defensive sweeper who plays slightly ahead of the CBs as opposed to a sweeper who plays slightly behind the CBS. In possession, the CBs will push up alongside him. He's NOT a defender and he will NOT change the defensive formation. He's not supposed to.  He provides cover for the CBs and allows the team to push further forward.

To test it, use a flat back four with a HB and tell your keeper to play the ball to the playmaker. And then see how many times he plays it to the HB. I promise you, he won't.

There are other roles you can give that player. Regista, DLP, and so on. But HB is not going to do what you expect it to do. Tell your keeper to roll it oput to a DLP and he will come get it. A HB will not.

 

 

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23 minutes ago, rothordegilian said:

Half Back is NOT a playmaker. It's a defensive sweeper who plays slightly ahead of the CBs as opposed to a sweeper who plays slightly behind the CBS. In possession, the CBs will push up alongside him. He's NOT a defender and he will NOT change the defensive formation. He's not supposed to.  He provides cover for the CBs and allows the team to push further forward.

To test it, use a flat back four with a HB and tell your keeper to play the ball to the playmaker. And then see how many times he plays it to the HB. I promise you, he won't.

There are other roles you can give that player. Regista, DLP, and so on. But HB is not going to do what you expect it to do. Tell your keeper to roll it oput to a DLP and he will come get it. A HB will not.

You appear to have misunderstood the issue. If you re-read the thread you'll see that nobody is claiming the Half-Back is a playmaker and nobody is claiming the Half-Back will change the defensive formation.

The issue is in the transitional phase when building from your own half - see detailed explanation in the first post.

On 21 October 2016 at 10:21, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

There is no issue with marking. The role works perfectly well out of possession.

The issue is build up play, in possession. The Half-Backs movement is actually correct but there needs to be a knock on effect that the centre backs fan out otherwise it is pointless.

The mechanism works with wingbacks - but adding wingbacks creates knock on problems - so I am struggling to understand how it's so difficult to translate the mechanism into a 4-man defence system.

This illustrates what should be happening:

modern-centre-half

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

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Amarante   

Now we have an conundrum. How is the role describe in the match engine and in the game. Are we expecting too much from  the HB? More questions than answers 

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13 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yea, I understand it's probably more complicated than "having the Centre Backs act the same way with Fullbacks as they do Wingbacks", however regardless of the complexity of the issue, as a paying customer, I don't think that it is too much to ask for a simple reply or update.

I would just like to add that I did reply to this thread on October 20th. The thread was replied to, not just you specifically.

If you read the post, you will see that I had also taken the time to read your other thread. Technically, the HB role is working and the issue that you are having is that the centre backs may not be splitting as far as you would like when you are in possession of the ball. Remember that the full backs need to be higher to create this space for the defenders to split, which is why you see better results of tactical shape when you are using wingbacks rather than full backs.

I would be interested to hear your feedback on how it works with a full back on attacking. I use a wingback on defend and I see my defenders split, however, this is because they will have the room to fan out.

Also, thank you for your replies Amarante, replies with understanding are much appreciated by the team and I.

Cheers,

Nic

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10 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

You appear to have misunderstood the issue. If you re-read the thread you'll see that nobody is claiming the Half-Back is a playmaker and nobody is claiming the Half-Back will change the defensive formation.

 

You were talking about Busquets dropping deep between the CBs. He does this to get the ball because he plays like a Deep Lying Playmaker. That's not what a Half back does.

In order to spread the back 3 with a HB, you'll have to push the wing-backs right forward. If you take the screenshots above, the WBs are still too deep for the CBs to spread. I play a 4-2-2-2 with a HB, a Regista and attacking wing-backs as there is absolutely no problem once the WBs bomb forward.

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If it helps, I do see what you are trying to say but with the current ME you will have to push the WBs forward a lot to get it to work. In the gif you linked to, look how far forward they are at the end.

The real issue is that future MEs need the ability to give players multiple positions to play in during attack and defense phases. You should be able to tell the 'Busquets' figure in this scenario to actually play as a CB during attack and then move into midfield when defending. HB won't solve that problem.

Personally, I'd love to be able to tell my defenders that if one WB attacks, the 3 remaining defenders switch to a back 3 with the spare WB shuffling across and becoming a CB, spreading as necessary.

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