Defensive Football Idea

[Cleon]

I'm currently writing an article about defensive football and examining just exactly how attacking it can be yet solid too. What kind of things do you want to see in the article? I'm asking now as this is a mammoth task writing about the save I created for this. My intitial idea was to win every single game I played then I decided I'd do this by being defensive. I'll not tell you if I achieved it or not as I don't want to spoil it for people (unless you follow me on twitter then you already know.

I've done a lot of it already but I want to make sure its complete before I post and discusses the topics the users want to see already rather than adding them afterwards, it'll be much simpler. So far I've got;

1. The shape
   
2. Explanation of the Roles
   
3. Why I choose the TI's
   
4. Examining what defensive football is and how it works
   
5. Showing screenshots and videos of it in action
   
6. The issues when facing certain formations and how we can counter them
   

What else can I add that you'd be interested in?

[JOSEPH!]

I'm sure this will be a great addition to the forum - looking forward to it.

By point 6 - are you including not just formations but playing styles too? Assuming someone adopts this style of play for a team expected to do fairly well (namely they will have games they are expected to dominate throughout the season) they will come up against a team who park the bus which could make it difficult.

Since Mourinho said that "winning 1-0 isn't that hard" his team have adopted a certain style of football. He has typically struggled this season against teams who adopt a similar defensive approach against him. I suppose my question is: Are you including playing against teams you are expected to beat in point 6? Or is that question redundant because you've chosen a team who are considerable underdogs?

[RTHerringbone]

I think you probably cover my suggestions in points 4 and 5, but bear with me.

There have been a few threads and comments recently where people mention issues with passes dissecting space between a central defender and a full back. I'm not sure what your views are on this - how often you see it, whether you think it's an issue, the way you stop / reduce it?

It's a common enough complaint that it would be relevant in the article as a specific mention.

In addition to that, and I'm sure you've covered this too, it would be good to not only understand the Defensive aspect, but just how it opens up when you attack. I think people read the word "Defensive" and freak out and assume that you can't play attractive attacking football with that approach.

[Cleon]

I'm sure this will be a great addition to the forum - looking forward to it.

By point 6 - are you including not just formations but playing styles too? Assuming someone adopts this style of play for a team expected to do fairly well (namely they will have games they are expected to dominate throughout the season) they will come up against a team who park the bus which could make it difficult.

Since Mourinho said that "winning 1-0 isn't that hard" his team have adopted a certain style of football. He has typically struggled this season against teams who adopt a similar defensive approach against him. I suppose my question is: Are you including playing against teams you are expected to beat in point 6? Or is that question redundant because you've chosen a team who are considerable underdogs?

Yups it will all be included. And some of the thread is about Sheffield United in League One, so most teams are underdogs when I face them.

[Cleon]

I think you probably cover my suggestions in points 4 and 5, but bear with me.

There have been a few threads and comments recently where people mention issues with passes dissecting space between a central defender and a full back. I'm not sure what your views are on this - how often you see it, whether you think it's an issue, the way you stop / reduce it?

It's a common enough complaint that it would be relevant in the article as a specific mention.

In addition to that, and I'm sure you've covered this too, it would be good to not only understand the Defensive aspect, but just how it opens up when you attack. I think people read the word "Defensive" and freak out and assume that you can't play attractive attacking football with that approach.

The last bit will be what the article is based upon and showing exactly how and why it works and how the roles/duties are also important. I'll try and show roles that wouldn't work in the set up and explain why too. I'll show videos of it in all phases of play too and show that defensive football can be the most attacking on the game.

[Luizinho]

I've always had a problem when adapting to my opponents before the match via the use of scout reports, weather, etc. I'm aware that you don't change anything before, rather adapting during the match. However any preparation that you do before a game would be a great help

[JOSEPH!]

In addition to that, and I'm sure you've covered this too, it would be good to not only understand the Defensive aspect, but just how it opens up when you attack. I think people read the word "Defensive" and freak out and assume that you can't play attractive attacking football with that approach.

Agreed. It certainly is an area of misunderstanding and I suppose it follows on from recent requests for a thread based on direct football. Is this the article you mentioned when I made a comment about something or other and you posted a video (of your CWB scoring) at the same time as my comment which was an in-game example of what I meant?

I hope that last question makes sense :o

[RTHerringbone]

The last bit will be what the article is based upon

I really must learn to bloody read

It says that in the first sentence

Honestly, my short term memory makes a goldfish look like Mastermind.

I put it down to a misspent youth.

[Cleon]

I've always had a problem when adapting to my opponents before the match via the use of scout reports, weather, etc. I'm aware that you don't change anything before, rather adapting during the match. However any preparation that you do before a game would be a great help

I don't do any prep before a game ever. The only prep I do is pick my starting 11

[leggie1973]

Not sure I have much to add, other than - looking forward to reading it and then adapting it into my preferred spare man formation of 123211! Unless, of course, your thread persuades me that by playing Defensive a spare man is no longer necessary. Your Yorkshireman, Ajax and Understanding threads are still routinely referred to by this FM13 player. Thank you for all the ideas Cleon

[eusebio1]

I would love to see an article on Catenaccio, as I always tried to emulate the system but never got it working well!

[RocheBag]

There is an extremely in depth thread on the catenaccio already, I can't find it because I'm on my phone, but I'm sure you can dig it up

[Guest]

There is an extremely in depth thread on the catenaccio already, I can't find it because I'm on my phone, but I'm sure you can dig it up

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/374841-To-Catenaccio-and-BEYOND!?highlight=catenaccio

[lam]

Hi Cleon,

Was waiting for this

It might be a bit late for this one if you have already done lots of work, but something around evolving roles for the tactic and players.

For us mere human players, we 'think' we have a good tactic and formation and roles within it, but it doesn't always work out that way and something around adapting initial ideas into something that actualy works would be interesting to see.

That said, if what you thought worked before you started and it did work then there isnt going to be much to write about.

I think another good thing to write about will be use of space, though that may very well be covered in your role explanations.

Regards

LAM

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon,

Was waiting for this

It might be a bit late for this one if you have already done lots of work, but something around evolving roles for the tactic and players.

For us mere human players, we 'think' we have a good tactic and formation and roles within it, but it doesn't always work out that way and something around adapting initial ideas into something that actualy works would be interesting to see.

That said, if what you thought worked before you started and it did work then there isnt going to be much to write about.

I think another good thing to write about will be use of space, though that may very well be covered in your role explanations.

Regards

LAM

Hopefully I can cover that too yeah

Another thing I forgot to mention is what I did in the January window and why I brought in the players I did. I'll go into great detail about this.

[THOG]

The defensive line is probably the most poorly understood mechanic in the game in terms of the nuts & bolts of how it works. I think going into detail into how a deep d-line settings differs from a high d-line setting in different contexts would be really useful for a lot of people, especially as far as understanding why defensive mentalities are more versatile than you might think.

[Lyssien]

Hi Cleon, it's been a long time. So it's OK if you don't remember me.

I am playing FM again after a long time. I am having success, but I am really struggling to play the football I want (my goal is to own possession and get 1-0 wins). FM has changed quite a bit since my days, can't even figure out the DM roles now...

But I have been reading a lot of your threads and they are helping me a lot -so much good stuff to get the brain working! They are exactly the kind of threads I was hoping to find. Also, the Ajax thread is a jewel. Top stuff!

To the matter at hand now: I have just been promoted with my overachieving Staines to Skrill Premier and I 'll be certainly following this thread too. In addition to what you 'll be covering, I would also be interested in reading more about OI. Judging by your other threads, you don't seem to be a fan of using OI. But it would be interesting as an additional weapon.

[Cleon]

Of course I remember you Lyssien, you're the reason I got into the training side of the game and learnt how it all worked. Seems like another life almost now though it's been that long. Nice to see you still around

I'll try and do a section on OI's for you

[James9]

Hi Cleon when will you be releasing your guide.

[dusziv]

I would be interested to hear some new aspects of training. I am sometimes really struggling with it in FM14.

[olivermain83]

It'll be great to see if it's possible to play defensively without the opponent having 25 shots. I find it hard to set up to soak up pressure and hit on the break because I can never win the ball back.

[kandersson]

Sounds great.

Hopefully you can write a bit about defensive line and especially the use of offside trap as I'm never sure about that in FM! I'd imagine this Defensive Football Idea might feature a deeper D-line and no offside trap?

Looking forward to the new article/thread.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon when will you be releasing your guide.

When its finished, it could be tomorrow it could be next week. Really depends on how much time I get and if I can fit working on it around the kids

I would be interested to hear some new aspects of training. I am sometimes really struggling with it in FM14.

I've already covered training, this thread won't be touching on that as its not relevant to the subject mentioned in the opening post. For training you should read http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/380395-Ajax-When-Real-Life-Meets-Football-Manager-FM14

It'll be great to see if it's possible to play defensively without the opponent having 25 shots. I find it hard to set up to soak up pressure and hit on the break because I can never win the ball back.

You can yeah, I'll be discussing how in a lot of detail

Sounds great.

Hopefully you can write a bit about defensive line and especially the use of offside trap as I'm never sure about that in FM! I'd imagine this Defensive Football Idea might feature a deeper D-line and no offside trap?

Looking forward to the new article/thread.

I doubt I'll be talking about offside trap as I'll be too deep to use it. I don't want to stray off topic really and start talking about stuff that has no relevance to what I created or I'd never get it finished. I want (if I can ) to keep it all about what I created and keep the discussion about the how and why this actual brand of defensive football works so other people can get a better idea of how it works and see how all the roles/duties link together to create the end product.

[Higgy]

I think you probably cover my suggestions in points 4 and 5, but bear with me.

There have been a few threads and comments recently where people mention issues with passes dissecting space between a central defender and a full back. I'm not sure what your views are on this - how often you see it, whether you think it's an issue, the way you stop / reduce it?

It's a common enough complaint that it would be relevant in the article as a specific mention.

In addition to that, and I'm sure you've covered this too, it would be good to not only understand the Defensive aspect, but just how it opens up when you attack. I think people read the word "Defensive" and freak out and assume that you can't play attractive attacking football with that approach.

I'm pulling my hair out over this...

I've been trying a deeper, narrow line thinking this may close the passing lanes and reduce the space in behind but still happening far too regularly.

[abirdc]

I will like to hear about your approach when you just want a draw from your team, or concede as less goal as possible, aka "Park The Bus" tactics.

[Cleon]

I will like to hear about your approach when you just want a draw from your team, or concede as less goal as possible, aka "Park The Bus" tactics.

I don't play like that. I set up to win every single game and play the game like I always need the win regardless of opposition or how strong/weak a team might be while at the same time keeping clean sheets.

[JOSEPH!]

Cleon you're in danger of adding excessively to an already high work load here

[Cleon]

I am yeah. I really want this to be the most complete thing I've done though so better to be thorough. I gave RT a quick peek of what I've done so far and he seemed to like it

[deserter]

It's easy to see how to defend high up with high pressure. Also simple to defend deep keeping shape.

Some more interesting defensive setups: Deep and aggressive, high and passive, rely on mistakes, "I'll get either the ball or man"-spoiling tactics, channeling attacks to certain areas, and lastly a "balanced" defensive strategy (whatever that means).

[RTHerringbone]

I gave RT a quick peek of what I've done so far and he seemed to like it

Yep - it is typically high quality stuff already, and that's before any of the deeper analysis kicks in.

This is definitely going to be worth waiting for

[JOSEPH!]

Yep - it is typically high quality stuff already, and that's before any of the deeper analysis kicks in.

This is definitely going to be worth waiting for

A cheeky peek?! I'm excited.

Edit: Also jealous... just saying :o

[majikjohnson]

Great idea. I look forward to seeing this. I would like to know how to be defenisvely solid without inviting too much pressure, and still being able to offer an attacking threat.

[RTHerringbone]

I would like to know how to be defenisvely solid without inviting too much pressure, and still being able to offer an attacking threat.

Yeah - this is absolutely the key to the whole thing. A really tricky balancing act, so I'm sure we'll all learn a lot when it arrives.

[kazm]

Hurry Cleon! I'm looking for a reason to start playing again.

[Guest]

Great idea. I look forward to seeing this. I would like to know how to be defenisvely solid without inviting too much pressure, and still being able to offer an attacking threat.

The crux of why so many people are wary of being defensive so yes I can't wait to read this.

[SJ234]

Developing one off match strategies to kill that game like Chelsea did against Liverpool for instance. This is something which will really interest me as I have been able to crack free flowing football but a lot of the time I have attempted to be defensive I have been ripped apart.

[flere-imsaho]

I'd be interested in knowing how one can tell, when playing defensively, if your team's lack of goals is due to just playing defensively, or is due to the attackers not playing well, or even the attacking part of the system not working. Playing defensive is no good if you keep going 0-0.

[lam]

Urghhh... I feel another new start coming on.......

Will you start a new thread of continue in this one? Just need to know if i have to hit refresh every 30 mins over the weekend or if I actualy need to put some more working and scan the forum!

[Super Bladesman]

Can't wait. It will be great to see something oriented around good defensive play for a change!

I'd also like to know what you do with regards to individual player instructions, if you use any. It's something you often gloss over in articles, and I wonder if it's an area that you don't focus on so much in order to promote a more cohesive team structure. Will be watching with interest.

[TheBigBoss]

Quite funny you've made this article I've been leaking goals left right and centre I'm 6th but I've conceded the 2nd most goals in the league

[RocheBag]

Needless to say I'm excited for this thread

[lam]

Been thinking about this more and more (again..... I feel another start coming on).

Given that the tactic is defensive, do you have to play around with tempo much? ie, if there is an attacking team will you try to break fast to counter the gaps or if it's a defensive minded team, do you break slow to enable players to get forwards to provide support around and attack?

I know that you've not played with tempo to much historically, but I'm not sure whether a defensive tactic requires it?!?!?!

[Cleon]

I've been working a lot on it today and spent a good 4 hours writing, videos and screenshots for it today so hopefully it'll be no later than middle of next week. Still a very slim chance before Monday but no guarantees.

[elt]

Ive found that using the Very Fluid philosophy and Defensive Mentality allows me to use midfielders in attack duties so they will actually make a lot of forward runs but will still be predominantly defensive minded. I play 4141 VF D with my flat 4 midfielders on attack duties.

[lam]

Something that I think will become very interesting is your views on PPMs. The reason I mention this is because your aiming for a very controlled game. However PPM's can play havoc with that.

As you want players to do very specific things, will you remove them from a role if they have a PPM that is contrary to the role/duty?

LAM

[NoChance]

One issue I've encountered when playing defensively is that I tend to concede a lot more set pieces in or near my box. My solution was a bit brute force: I raided the transfer market to make sure that I had players capable of defending a better proportion of those set pieces. Assuming you had the same problem, I'm curious as to whether you had a more elegant solution to cutting the problem off at source by reducing the number of set pieces conceded?

[elland road boo boys]

Hi Cleon.

Is there a thread regarding TI's & what exactly they do.

If not could this be included in some way

[Cleon]

I did something for FM13 on TI's and what they did, its mostly still the same in FM14;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/305067-The-Full-90-Minutes-What-I-Do

I'll only be adding stuff to this defensive project that is relevant to what I use though. I don't want to stray too far off the subject

[mr_tea82]

I'm really excited for this thread and I am interested in knowing about different types of set ups and when it's appropriate to use each set up.

The one thing I am desperate to know is about getting the most out of the analysis tabs on the match day. Particularly about using the heat map, average positions, passes map, interception, tackle graphic etc. to see when and where your tactic is deficient and particularly how you can address issues.

[Cleon]

I'm really excited for this thread and I am interested in knowing about different types of set ups and when it's appropriate to use each set up.

The one thing I am desperate to know is about getting the most out of the analysis tabs on the match day. Particularly about using the heat map, average positions, passes map, interception, tackle graphic etc. to see when and where your tactic is deficient and particularly how you can address issues.

I already covered how to use the analysis tab in here;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/377489-Creating-A-Tactic-Design-Create-and-Maintain