The Santos Project - Tactical and Player Development

[shirajzl]

Thanks

[fmFutbolManager]

Fantastic thread as usual. Looking at my Barakaldo save, we're in Bilbao, which I think we can all agree is possibly one of the better areas for youth recruitment, given the players to come out of this area of Spain.

With my little Segunda B team, I have the following:

Youth facilities: Adequate training facilities

Junior coaching: Adequate junior coaching

Youth recruitment: Average youth recruitment

I guess it's more important to drive up the youth recruitment rating to get more decent players in. But how would I do this? Just increase reputation?

[Cleon]

Fantastic thread as usual. Looking at my Barakaldo save, we're in Bilbao, which I think we can all agree is possibly one of the better areas for youth recruitment, given the players to come out of this area of Spain.

With my little Segunda B team, I have the following:

Youth facilities: Adequate training facilities

Junior coaching: Adequate junior coaching

Youth recruitment: Average youth recruitment

I guess it's more important to drive up the youth recruitment rating to get more decent players in. But how would I do this? Just increase reputation?

Basically yeah. This was Stu Colemans reply to someone about this with a created club;

Generally speaking your board will need to be committed to youth development (some are, some aren't) and your rating will need to be below what would be expected for a club of that size. The chances are most sides probably have recruitment networks which already reflect their club stature in the starting DB so to begin with many sides won't have the opportunity to upgrade to begin with. If however you improve your sides rep over time then the opportunity to raise the youth recruitment network will become available, finances permitting.

[darren1983]

A cracking read as usual mate.

[fmFutbolManager]

Basically yeah. This was Stu Colemans reply to someone about this with a created club;

Nice one thanks. I've just gone to the boardroom to talk about the youth recruitment network and the only two options are to ask the board to reduce the amount we spend on youth recruitment. Interestingly one of the options says we should reduce spending because there's too much competition in the area to be able to attract players good enough for the team.

[mantorras77]

Hey Cleon...great stuff! I got an issue that I need help with. (I tried to upoad pic's but it won't let me) so I'll just explain....

So I have this LB (29 yrs old) who is a natural DL, an unconvincing ML and an awkward AML. He has national rep and is an important first team player. I wanted to him to tutor a youth player I have (17 yrs old) who has local rep, is a Hot prespect for the Future, is a natural ML and accomplished AML. The odd thing is that when I speal to the senior player about tutoring only 2 players show up on his list and both those players are CB's who only play DC.....what am I missing here??!!!

[Steve Odom]

Q - What are the requirements for a player to be able to tutor? A - The tutor must have a better squad status than the person being tutored. He also needs to be of a higher rep. They need to both have a similar position in common. You can't tutor and learn a PPM at the same time.

​

Did you check all this? Do you have youngsters to tutor at all?

[mantorras77]

Did you check all this? Do you have youngsters to tutor at all?

You talking to me?

[Cleon]

Hey Cleon...great stuff! I got an issue that I need help with. (I tried to upoad pic's but it won't let me) so I'll just explain....

So I have this LB (29 yrs old) who is a natural DL, an unconvincing ML and an awkward AML. He has national rep and is an important first team player. I wanted to him to tutor a youth player I have (17 yrs old) who has local rep, is a Hot prespect for the Future, is a natural ML and accomplished AML. The odd thing is that when I speal to the senior player about tutoring only 2 players show up on his list and both those players are CB's who only play DC.....what am I missing here??!!!

They don't really share a position in common, the tutor isn't really any good at the position you want him to tutor I'd suspect with him being awkward at best. Either that or the youngster you want to tutor is injured, learning a PPM?

[mantorras77]

They don't really share a position in common, the tutor isn't really any good at the position you want him to tutor I'd suspect with him being awkward at best. Either that or the youngster you want to tutor is injured, learning a PPM?

Regarding the "position in common" idea, thats the thing the tutor is ONLY a natural DL, an unconvincing ML and an awkward AML....and when you speak to the tutor to have him tutor, the only players that showed up on the list were 2 CB's!!! How can this be?? They share absolutely nothing in common position wise!!! So either a.) this is a bug or b.)we need a better explaination regarding this from SI!

[Cleon]

Regarding the "position in common" idea, thats the thing the tutor is ONLY a natural DL, an unconvincing ML and an awkward AML....and when you speak to the tutor to have him tutor, the only players that showed up on the list were 2 CB's!!! How can this be?? They share absolutely nothing in common position wise!!! So either a.) this is a bug or b.)we need a better explaination regarding this from SI!

It's not a bug at all. He shares a position with the CB's because he's a natural defender, so they have defence in common. He doesn't have a good midfield rating hence he can't tutor the natural midfielder you'd like to be tutored because he isn't a midfield and his rating is too weak.

[mantorras77]

It's not a bug at all. He shares a position with the CB's because he's a natural defender, so they have defence in common. He doesn't have a good midfield rating hence he can't tutor the natural midfielder you'd like to be tutored because he isn't a midfield and his rating is too weak.

Oh ok did not know that! Thanks Cleon. So basically the tutor needs to be natural or accomplished in an area of the field that the tutee is also a natural or accomplished in correct?

[Mark.]

Top stuff Cleon. I will be following closely

Keeping all your stuff in one thread is a brilliant way of showing how every thing links together. We have so many great pieces on all the different areas, now there is something to give tips on tying it all together!

Especially looking forward to some more developments on your tactic. Looks very interesting.

[szp]

I'm having a serious problem with my teams morale during pre-season. I'm following all Cleon's advices according to pre-season, and I'm arranging friendly games against weaker opposition. I'm beating all of them 3-0, 4-0, 5-0 etc. Straight after games, my players morale are mostly high, but after one-two days it's dropping to "okay", "slightly okay" (I don't know exact names of it in english, because I play on polish version of the game). Where should I look for the solution? What is the problem? I used this approach in FM13 and it worked perfectly. I don't know why is it going not so good now.

[Cleon]

I'm having a serious problem with my teams morale during pre-season. I'm following all Cleon's advices according to pre-season, and I'm arranging friendly games against weaker opposition. I'm beating all of them 3-0, 4-0, 5-0 etc. Straight after games, my players morale are mostly high, but after one-two days it's dropping to "okay", "slightly okay" (I don't know exact names of it in english, because I play on polish version of the game). Where should I look for the solution? What is the problem? I used this approach in FM13 and it worked perfectly. I don't know why is it going not so good now.

Between friendly or competitive games? If friendly games just have the games closer together?

[Cleon]

I've added some development progress to post 13. I will be adding a lot more during the week too.

[szp]

It's between friendly games. And my team plays friendlies every 3 days.

[MishiesML]

Stunning stuff with Barbosa. Can you shed some more detail into his personality traits? I take it he has great hidden attributes aswell.

I was also wondering about the quality of coaches and training facilities. Would the attribute increases have been slightly less if these areas were less well developed?

many thanks for the thread.

[Cleon]

Stunning stuff with Barbosa. Can you shed some more detail into his personality traits? I take it he has great hidden attributes aswell.

I was also wondering about the quality of coaches and training facilities. Would the attribute increases have been slightly less if these areas were less well developed?

many thanks for the thread.

I'll have to check his personality when I go back on the game I can't remember off hand what it is. I didn't have anyone to tutor him so this is all none tutored. I'm not sure on what his hidden attributes are because I've not looked using the editor. My coaches are in the opening posts too. I've signed 2 more since so I'll post those when I get the chance.

The most important thing is game time, it's the amount of time that he's played that is the largest factor in his development because this is giving CA and making him have points to spend in his attributes. The more you play youths the better they'll develop.

[Luizinho]

Cleon; I know it doesn't relate to anything you have posted. However I was wondering the differences between a Winger on Support to Attack? Also an Inside Forward on Support to Attack? What are the key differences? I always get confused when picking the duty of them!

[kazm]

You can read the difference in the tooltips when you hover over the support/attack mentality.

[Rob4590]

I've added some development progress to post 13. I will be adding a lot more during the week too.

I'm curious as to how much his star rating has improved during that year? Obviously he is 5* potential - but what were his start and finish current abilities?

[Cleon]

I'm curious as to how much his star rating has improved during that year? Obviously he is 5* potential - but what were his start and finish current abilities?

I'm not sure because I downloaded an add-on that disables attributes and star ratings. They only show on the current screens because I disabled it to post so I didn't look.

[Madminister]

I'm not sure because I downloaded an add-on that disables attributes and star ratings. They only show on the current screens because I disabled it to post so I didn't look.

What add-on is that? it sounds interesting. Do you not see any attribute ratings at all then?

[Cleon]

What add-on is that? it sounds interesting. Do you not see any attribute ratings at all then?

These are them,

http://footballvideogames.weebly.com/fm14-mod-downloads.html

When I downloaded them the downloads are actually the wrong way around so not sure if its fixed or not. But the 2nd download was actually the first one and the first one was the second one

[odo]

Great post!

What about training intensity, team and individual? When they moan about heavy workload ect

[Cleon]

Great post!

What about training intensity, team and individual? When they moan about heavy workload ect

This all depends on the user. Once my tactic is all fluid and the team are gelled I leave the general training set to balanced with no match training. That way I am giving the players as much training as possible on their attributes. I tend to ignore the moans about workload because this normally suggest you have a squad full of highly professionals which is good.

[Chef Raekwon]

Great thread, Cleon, as always! I learned a lot from this year's Santos thread, but most notably last year's Ajax thread.

One question: you claim the HOYD personality and the personalities of your assman and coaches rubs off on your young players. I knew about the HOYD personality, but not about the fringe coaches. Are all coaches involved, or just youth coaches? And where was this confirmed? What are other attributes to look out for in a HOYD, besides the obvious personality and judging player potential?

The one thing I find supremely annoying is the issue of tutors who can only tutor practically once every season, instead of having a month cool down period. This breaks the game for me, because I always and only play as Ajax and I rely on tutoring so much. Any word on when this will be fixed?

[Cleon]

Great thread, Cleon, as always! I learned a lot from this year's Santos thread, but most notably last year's Ajax thread.

One question: you claim the HOYD personality and the personalities of your assman and coaches rubs off on your young players. I knew about the HOYD personality, but not about the fringe coaches. Are all coaches involved, or just youth coaches? And where was this confirmed? What are other attributes to look out for in a HOYD, besides the obvious personality and judging player potential?

The one thing I find supremely annoying is the issue of tutors who can only tutor practically once every season, instead of having a month cool down period. This breaks the game for me, because I always and only play as Ajax and I rely on tutoring so much. Any word on when this will be fixed?

There was a thread in GQ confirming the personality thing but I can't find the link atm because the search is showing me threads from 2008 atm (wtf) . But it was posted by Riz who designed the training module.

The tutor thing is a bug and will be fixed in a patch from what I've read so far

[Chef Raekwon]

^ Can't wait for the bloody patch. I have put my game on hold for the time being.

[allyc31]

Excellent thread Cleon!

On selection fo coaches, do you think attributes that are not directly related an attribute help, hinder or do not affect player attribute gain?

What I mean is, if you have a coach with 20's in every single attribute and one who only had 20's in say, Defence, Work Rate, Lev of DIs and Detemination, would the all 20's coach get better results (over the defensive coach) out of your players if he was set to defenisve training?

Does that make sense?

[Cleon]

Excellent thread Cleon!

On selection fo coaches, do you think attributes that are not directly related an attribute help, hinder or do not affect player attribute gain?

What I mean is, if you have a coach with 20's in every single attribute and one who only had 20's in say, Defence, Work Rate, Lev of DIs and Detemination, would the all 20's coach get better results (over the defensive coach) out of your players if he was set to defenisve training?

Does that make sense?

It should be same if he had the highest possible attributes for what he is training and DDM. Unless youths then he'd need high WWY too.

[Marvolo]

Hey, I'm a little basic compared to the in depth knowledge here. Was wondering what the experts think about pushing a player into a hard training routine while they're unhappy vs a lighter routine they're content/happy doing with regards to their development. Thanks for the hard work, I've picked up a lot reading through this already! Definitely bookmarked this thread.

[the SLC]

This all depends on the user. Once my tactic is all fluid and the team are gelled I leave the general training set to balanced with no match training. That way I am giving the players as much training as possible on their attributes. I tend to ignore the moans about workload because this normally suggest you have a squad full of highly professionals which is good.

great thread I always read your posts/threads.always clear and well presented

how do I set the match training to nothing? options I have are tactics,teamwork,def pos,def set pieces,att move,att set pieces.

[Cleon]

great thread I always read your posts/threads.always clear and well presented

how do I set the match training to nothing? options I have are tactics,teamwork,def pos,def set pieces,att move,att set pieces.

It's explained in the General/Match training bit of the thread. Setting the schedule bar all the way to the right is 0 match training.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

This is a good read.

Do you control your U21/U18 teams at all? Or trust your own managers to run things as they see fit?

When do you contemplate replacing players?

Let's say, you have two world class strikers, two very strong strikers with potential to be leading stars in the league you're in, let's assume it's the top league in the world so far, and you've got four youth strikers, one who has world class potential, the other three who have leading star potential but have a way to go before they could do a reasonable job as a permanent stater.

What would you do? Would you decide to cut one of the leading stars in favour of the world class potential player? Would you keep them all and try and develop them with limited match experience? I'd assume you'd make a nice bit of money selling them. I often find myself in this situation and always wonder how to go about it, I usually have to select those who are obviously going to be a permanent fixture on my team. That usually means some youth don't get a game if any, so their development gets stunted. Is this the time to loan them out perhaps? Will they develop into a benchwarmer by 24 if we didn't give them many games?

Questions! Questions!

[Cleon]

Do you control your U21/U18 teams at all? Or trust your own managers to run things as they see fit?

It depends at what kind of speed I want to play at. Sometimes I play as the youths too but then others I don't. Currently on this save I didn't in the first season but plan on doing so the second season.

When do you contemplate replacing players?

Let's say, you have two world class strikers, two very strong strikers with potential to be leading stars in the league you're in, let's assume it's the top league in the world so far, and you've got four youth strikers, one who has world class potential, the other three who have leading star potential but have a way to go before they could do a reasonable job as a permanent stater.

I'd have never had that many strikers to begin with so I don't face these kind of issues. If I play 2 strikers then I'll have 2 main strikers and the back up's will be youths, that way they get the game time needed. The think is not to have too many players but have enough for what you need. Having the correct number of players for each position is a vital part of my strategy. I focus on quality rather than quantity.

What would you do? Would you decide to cut one of the leading stars in favour of the world class potential player? Would you keep them all and try and develop them with limited match experience? I'd assume you'd make a nice bit of money selling them. I often find myself in this situation and always wonder how to go about it, I usually have to select those who are obviously going to be a permanent fixture on my team. That usually means some youth don't get a game if any, so their development gets stunted. Is this the time to loan them out perhaps? Will they develop into a benchwarmer by 24 if we didn't give them many games?

I never loan out a player. I'd rather keep him and tutor him and give them PPM's. I shape them to be the kind of player I need them to be and loaning them out doesn't help me here. I don't really have bench warmers I squad manage so I have a team that rotates.

[allyc31]

It should be same if he had the highest possible attributes for what he is training and DDM. Unless youths then he'd need high WWY too.

Ok, cool. Does this mean that Man Management and Tactical Knowledge (not Tactical Coaching) are useless for the coaching of the game? I know Tact Knowledge is an important attribute if you want that coach to perform scouting assignments on the opposition but I'm talking purely about the coaching side of things.

Thanks again

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Wouldn't keeping the mere 'four' for a striker position leave you at risk of an injury crisis? Do you ever keep scraps around for selling purposes?

Am looking forward to the rest of your posts.

[Cleon]

Wouldn't keeping the mere 'four' for a striker position leave you at risk of an injury crisis? Do you ever keep scraps around for selling purposes?

Am looking forward to the rest of your posts.

Injuries happen and I just have to use make shift changes or play someone out of position when this happens but it very rarely does. You'd have to be incredibly lucky to never have a fit striker when you have 4.

And no I don't see the point of keeping around players I have no intention of using so usually sell/release them pretty early. Everyone at my club gets games of some kind during a season, so I like to keep it manageable with the number of players I have.

[greggy]

Wonderful thread Cleon. Just having a little play with Ajax and I'm implementing a lot of what you have said here to the best of my abilities.

I have a question with regards to training youngsters (16-17 year olds). Should all technical, mental and physical stats all be trained at the same rate as they would be for players a few years older - or, would it be more beneficial to leave one of technical/mental/physical alone until they are a few years older?

I was thinking physical stats may grow at a larger rate than technical and mental stats at a young age, so that'd it be more beneficial to focus on the latter rather than the former when they are still young. Of course, this may be way off the mark!

Cheers in advance.

[Cleon]

Wonderful thread Cleon. Just having a little play with Ajax and I'm implementing a lot of what you have said here to the best of my abilities.

I have a question with regards to training youngsters (16-17 year olds). Should all technical, mental and physical stats all be trained at the same rate as they would be for players a few years older - or, would it be more beneficial to leave one of technical/mental/physical alone until they are a few years older?

I was thinking physical stats may grow at a larger rate than technical and mental stats at a young age, so that'd it be more beneficial to focus on the latter rather than the former when they are still young. Of course, this may be way off the mark!

Cheers in advance.

Physicals are supposed to rise the fastest the younger a player is. So it's down to personal choice really and what you think is best for you. For me I like to keep it balanced though and concentrate on all rather than physical. But focusing that can work just as well it just doesn't suit me but might you

[greggy]

Physicals are supposed to rise the fastest the younger a player is. So it's down to personal choice really and what you think is best for you. For me I like to keep it balanced though and concentrate on all rather than physical. But focusing that can work just as well it just doesn't suit me but might you

Thank you.

What I am thinking of doing is only focusing on physical stats at 16/17 if there is an area that is particularly low. I shall monitor it though of course and adjust accordingly.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Injuries happen and I just have to use make shift changes or play someone out of position when this happens but it very rarely does. You'd have to be incredibly lucky to never have a fit striker when you have 4.

And no I don't see the point of keeping around players I have no intention of using so usually sell/release them pretty early. Everyone at my club gets games of some kind during a season, so I like to keep it manageable with the number of players I have.

Brilliant.

Two last things(!)

The Assistant Manager, do you just focus on Determination, Motivation, Discipline and their personality? No need for JPA?

I've never understood the important stats for the Head of Youth either... I always assumed DDM + JPA and Working with youngsters for that role.

[Falahk]

The Assistant Manager, do you just focus on Determination, Motivation, Discipline and their personality? No need for JPA?

Personally I just care about the JPP, the personality and then its a bonus if he is decent at coaching something

[Mighty Red]

Looking forward to seeing how Gabriel Barbosa develops - just picked him up in my Liverpool game. He only scored his 1st goal in January! I'm putting down to not great adaptability stats and his relative youth...

[voe2012]

It depends at what kind of speed I want to play at. Sometimes I play as the youths too but then others I don't. Currently on this save I didn't in the first season but plan on doing so the second season.

The problem for me is that I want my very talented U19 players to play in the reserves as opposed to the U19's. If I do not control everything manually they will play in the reserves (professional in the dutch league) AND in the U19 match in the same weekend, which is too much. So i resort to managing my first and B-team, making sure tehse starlets do not play in the U19's. Do you work around this?

Also, in this approach these players will be in first team training, not benefitting from the excellent youth facilities&coaches at the club. what would the effect of that be? They will improve (gain CA), but more generic and lees steered by the training&coaching set up?

[shirajzl]

Regarding tactic familiarity, you said friendlies should be played every 3 days, while making sure we have match training the day before each match. Just to make it clear, should it look like this?

[Cleon]

Yeah. As long as training takes place before each game it'll work.

[Phelix]

The problem for me is that I want my very talented U19 players to play in the reserves as opposed to the U19's. If I do not control everything manually they will play in the reserves (professional in the dutch league) AND in the U19 match in the same weekend, which is too much. So i resort to managing my first and B-team, making sure tehse starlets do not play in the U19's. Do you work around this?

Also, in this approach these players will be in first team training, not benefitting from the excellent youth facilities&coaches at the club. what would the effect of that be? They will improve (gain CA), but more generic and lees steered by the training&coaching set up?

Couldn't you just place these youngsters in your first team squad and only make the available for the reserves? This means they will train with the senior players, but play for the reserves...