The Santos Project - Tactical and Player Development

[swallow1050]

Use fitness on high in Preseason, then use team cohesion if you have changed squad or balanced if you haven't made many changes to your squad

[Cleon]

Absolutely brilliant help to me this is, can't thank you enough.

Quick question, and forgive me if it is answered somewhere in here (I have looked) Pre-season training, brilliant help I understand the match prep part. What do you do with the general during pre-season? Do you use team cohesion if you have signed a lot of players (Just started a new game, and I am estimating I will need to add 4 or 5 players to my squad this time around, Will obviously try and cut this down in future, but it's difficult

when you are in a game where you are trying to climb the leagues, presuming you do get promoted the team always needs strengthening.

Or do you go for fitness with the general in pre-season, and if so how high? Does any of this affect the match prep. Forgive me if I am thick and have missed this, just want to get it right from the off. T

Thank you again.

High fitness for 7-10 days then team cohesion until the assistant says the whole team has a good understanding. Then I change it to balanced and leave it low for the whole season.

[Steve Odom]

High fitness for 7-10 days then team cohesion until the assistant says the whole team has a good understanding. Then I change it to balanced and leave it low for the whole season.

I do more or less the saùme, only I use tactical on low because almost all my players are underdevelopped in that department.

[Torskus77]

Thank you, much appreciated.

[Falahk]

I do more or less the same, only I use tactical on low because almost all my players are underdevelopped in that department.

I normally do tactical training regardless since I need the attributes it train no matter how i chose to play

[Steve Odom]

I normally do tactical training regardless since I need the attributes it train no matter how i chose to play

I use the general training only to enhance what I think the team in general is lacking. I'm manager of the newly promotes Skrill Premier squad Redditch, which is underdeveloped tactically, so I use the general training to enhance that. If I were managing a more rounded squad, I would use Cleons approach to the letter. Right now, I use every tool available to enhance my team. Since my facilities don't allow me to enhance certain attributes more (you can only train certain ones of them more if your facilities have a a said standard), I will utilize roles more too. Once I get the facilities at a certain standard, I'm reshaping players like Cleon does. She nows what she's doing.

[Britrock]

Does my ability to expand my youth recruitment network have any relation to my scouting knowledge? i.e. if I expand my scouting knowledge I'm more likely to be able to expand my youth recruitment? Or is it solely a financial thing?

[Cleon]

Does my ability to expand my youth recruitment network have any relation to my scouting knowledge? i.e. if I expand my scouting knowledge I'm more likely to be able to expand my youth recruitment? Or is it solely a financial thing?

It's explained in that part of the thread already.

[Vinnyvagus77]

Hi Cleon

If you work on a tactic (or two) in pre-season and start the season with these two tactics but then around October time it seems it just isnt working as you hoped - do you think its a good idea to look at creating a new tactic? If so would you have to put your Match training back to 50% tactics and just give yourself say 12 (league and cup) games to adapt. Obviously results are not likely to be great during this time and you would need to keep the board happy - but what other option do you have? No point in waiting to the next pre-season to re-train a new tactic is there? Would like to hear your thoughts on this and how to adapt a new tactic once the season has started.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon

If you work on a tactic (or two) in pre-season and start the season with these two tactics but then around October time it seems it just isnt working as you hoped - do you think its a good idea to look at creating a new tactic? If so would you have to put your Match training back to 50% tactics and just give yourself say 12 (league and cup) games to adapt. Obviously results are not likely to be great during this time and you would need to keep the board happy - but what other option do you have? No point in waiting to the next pre-season to re-train a new tactic is there? Would like to hear your thoughts on this and how to adapt a new tactic once the season has started.

You don't really have to do all that again depending on how drastic the changes are.

I can't really advise on changing tactics mid season because I always use the same tactic and just keep tweaking that one rather than having different ones. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

[wakey24]

Great thread Cleon. I have read all the posts in this thread and the creating your tactic thread and taken this on board with my Barnsley save. I used to be like Ranieri and tinker with tactics after every game and not set up my training or friendlies correctly.

Just one question, I am at work so haven't got any screen shots. I have a 19/20 year old that is 4.5* rating for potential, Talent Ndlovu. I have managed to train him to 3.5*, but his development has stopped, even though he is playing 20-30 games per year and training him on individual attributes. How do I eek out the extra? Will this come with time playing or have I missed the opportunity? Or is it just a case that it will take a little bit more time as there isn't a lot more to develop?

[Cleon]

Great thread Cleon. I have read all the posts in this thread and the creating your tactic thread and taken this on board with my Barnsley save. I used to be like Ranieri and tinker with tactics after every game and not set up my training or friendlies correctly.

Just one question, I am at work so haven't got any screen shots. I have a 19/20 year old that is 4.5* rating for potential, Talent Ndlovu. I have managed to train him to 3.5*, but his development has stopped, even though he is playing 20-30 games per year and training him on individual attributes. How do I eek out the extra? Will this come with time playing or have I missed the opportunity? Or is it just a case that it will take a little bit more time as there isn't a lot more to develop?

How has his development stopped? How do you know? if he no longer having green arrows on his attribute page? Have you had a chat with him and asked him to step it up? Does he have the right personality type to fulfill his potential?

There all things I'd look into.

[wakey24]

How has his development stopped? How do you know? if he no longer having green arrows on his attribute page? Have you had a chat with him and asked him to step it up? Does he have the right personality type to fulfill his potential?

There all things I'd look into.

Yeah no green arrows for the last half a season. I will check out his personality and see if speaking with him helps. Cheers.

[Torskus77]

Been a great help this thread has in understanding how things work.

10 games in to the season and my tactic is fluid, apart from the formation which is odd because I never played another formation. Does changing player roles affect this at all? I am only using a 4-5-1 formation which isn't anything to different. I knew it was going to be a bit more difficult first season, and I am pretty happy overall how I have done with your help.

[Telemachos]

Is "Gets crowd going" PPM in FM14, I didn't see it listed on your list. I think there was one more "gets opponents worked up" or gets them going. I haven't touched the editor for I don't know how long.

[Cleon]

Is "Gets crowd going" PPM in FM14, I didn't see it listed on your list. I think there was one more "gets opponents worked up" or gets them going. I haven't touched the editor for I don't know how long.

The list in the post is the full list of PPM's.

[Steve Odom]

How has his development stopped? How do you know? if he no longer having green arrows on his attribute page? Have you had a chat with him and asked him to step it up? Does he have the right personality type to fulfill his potential?

There all things I'd look into.

What does that actually do, game wise. Increase their morale or alter their personality? Since I 've never used editors and lack the patience to have notes on all players it is difficult to tell whether personality changes by that. Your thoughts on this, anyone?

[Cleon]

What does that actually do, game wise. Increase their morale or alter their personality? Since I 've never used editors and lack the patience to have notes on all players it is difficult to tell whether personality changes by that. Your thoughts on this, anyone?

It gives him a kick up the arse for a better term and can spur him on to pick up his training, its good for players who become stale. It doesn't change anything permanent and works more like match training in it gives a little boost.

[Steve Odom]

It gives him a kick up the arse for a better term and can spur him on to pick up his training, its good for players who become stale. It doesn't change anything permanent and works more like match training in it gives a little boost.

Thanks, pity though. I want more tools to enhance professionalism.

[shirajzl]

4. I'm in mid-Jan in Skrill North at the mo - 2 games a week/a game every 2 days at times with inclement weather and pitches. Therefore, I've temporarily added rest days before and after matches to manage condition. However I'm out of the cups now and soon will be into mostly Saturday fixtures only, so I'm asking how much I can crank up the training intensity without knackering the boys.

So you're saying that normally you never let your players rest before and after the match? I thought having those ticked on was a given, apart from the preseason.

[Cleon]

So you're saying that normally you never let your players rest before and after the match? I thought having those ticked on was a given, apart from the preseason.

2 rest days is overkill, normally just after the game is more than enough.

[Steve Odom]

And when the lazt basterds loose when they shouldn't, tick after game off too as irl.

[phnompenhandy]

So you're saying that normally you never let your players rest before and after the match? I thought having those ticked on was a given, apart from the preseason.

What Cleon says. In my furtive imagination, training the day before a match is a light workout followed by videos of the oppo and tactics prep on the chalkboard!

[shirajzl]

Do you plan to write something about your scouting setup? The last Santos thread missed only that.

[Cleon]

Do you plan to write something about your scouting setup? The last Santos thread missed only that.

I'm not sure, its depends how much time I have. Maybe but I've got a massive few months coming up and probably wont be around much on here let alone be able to write about it

[kdswain28]

The tactic

Once I start using this properly I'll update the thread with a lot more tactical stuff and give a proper analysis with it working in game. I'll show you how the roles all work together and what the players are actually doing.

Any chance to see this full tactic? This seems very interesting to try out.

[Cleon]

Any chance to see this full tactic? This seems very interesting to try out.

That is the full tactic you can see the settings already.

[sandybarclay84]

That is the full tactic you can see the settings already.

I think that there being no "team instructions" in the SS will throw a lot of people. I am unsure if there is any combination set up of these earlier in the thread you have shown,

to make this SS clear though, these roles have been selected with a purpose to play a certain way, and by fulfilling their individual duties the players will perform as needed within a solid unit.

To further emphasis team instructions into this will alter how each role will play, may it be detrimental or beneficial it is unseen without adding instructions and analysing them in game.

[Boothy0910]

Using Cleon's screenshot and only one additional instruction worked for me.

I had started my own Santos game before this thread was created, and struggled all season using a 4222 box. A 5 game win streak at the end of the season pulled me clear of a relegation dogfight. Decided to utilise this for season two having previously read the Zonal Marking article. Won State league, won Brasilliero, lost in quarter finals of cup when fixture congestion got the better of me. Only change I made was 'work ball into box'.

[kdswain28]

That is the full tactic you can see the settings already.

I was thinking more of the team instructions, that can make a big difference. I will play with it on a separate save to see how things work out. Love the setup and have it as my 2nd tactic with Liverpool.

[cerud]

​Training Facilities Info

Corporate Attribute

Basic 1-2

Fairly Basic 3-5

Adequate 6-9

Average 10-12

Good 13-15

Top 16-20

Training Attribute

Basic 1-2

Fairly Basic 3-5

Adequate 6-9

Average 10-12

Good 13-15

Top 16-20

Youth Attribute

Minimal 1-2

Basic 3-5

Adequate 6-9

Average 10-13

Good 14-16

Excellent 17-18

State of Art 19-20

Junior Co. Attribute

Minimal 1-2

Basic 3-5

Adequate 6-9

Average 10-13

Good 14-16

Excellent 17-19

Exceptional 20

Youth Rec. Attribute

Limited 1-2

Basic 3-5

Fairly Basic 6-8

Average 9-11

Above Av. 13-14

Established 15-16

Well Estab. 17-18

Extensive ​19-20

Has the rating system changed? I just upgraded my youth facilities and it went from "Basic" to "Poor".

[ajh1977]

No player or team instructions??

Great thread Cleon, really interesting! Thanks

[janesy20]

am I right in thinking you do not use any team instructions other than 'push higher up' and as a result prefer to use individual player instructions and PPMs?

thanks cleon.

[Cleon]

Has the rating system changed? I just upgraded my youth facilities and it went from "Basic" to "Poor".

Not that I'm aware of, I could be wrong though.

[Cleon]

am I right in thinking you do not use any team instructions other than 'push higher up' and as a result prefer to use individual player instructions and PPMs?

thanks cleon.

Nope I use no player instructions either

[Marchw]

Quick question Cleon (or indeed anyone who knows): when players come back from a World Cup/Euros for preseason, would you alter your preseason plans at all? My main players are at full fitness and match fitness and only arrived back after my first friendly (I play in Spain), would you rest them from training at all before throwing them into preseason? I'm concerned they might all be exhausted come January as they haven't had any sort of break.

[Cleon]

Quick question Cleon (or indeed anyone who knows): when players come back from a World Cup/Euros for preseason, would you alter your preseason plans at all? My main players are at full fitness and match fitness and only arrived back after my first friendly (I play in Spain), would you rest them from training at all before throwing them into preseason? I'm concerned they might all be exhausted come January as they haven't had any sort of break.

I'd give them all 2 weeks off.

[bdixon]

can natural fitness be increased via training or is this another stat that increases via age?

[ajh1977]

Do you think loaning out youngsters is beneficial for their development? On previous versions I've always done it and believed it helped but I don't really think its as beneficial this time round, any thoughts?

I've always scouted and searched through for youngsters from brazil even from the early days, and love to develop my youth players, really impressed with the thread.

[Falahk]

Quick question Cleon (or indeed anyone who knows): when players come back from a World Cup/Euros for preseason, would you alter your preseason plans at all? My main players are at full fitness and match fitness and only arrived back after my first friendly (I play in Spain), would you rest them from training at all before throwing them into preseason? I'm concerned they might all be exhausted come January as they haven't had any sort of break.

I never change my approach on that basis, but I always rotate my squad in such a manner that players never get exhausted anyway

[Sleepydude]

Do you think loaning out youngsters is beneficial for their development? On previous versions I've always done it and believed it helped but I don't really think its as beneficial this time round, any thoughts?

I've always scouted and searched through for youngsters from brazil even from the early days, and love to develop my youth players, really impressed with the thread.

It really depends on which club they get loaned out to and if they get a lot of playing time. The club should have good training facilities and the league that the loanee will play in should be good enough to provide a decent learning experience.

However, I personally like to keep the really talented youngsters (that I definitely plan on keeping) at the club. This has several advantages:

- After 3 years at your club they become homegrown

- I can give them first team appearances, which is the best way to raise their ability.

- By staying at the club and country they have an easier time settling in, learning the language if they are foreign, developing good relationships with the backroom staff and other players, etc.

So at the end of the day I only loan players out that I plan on selling anyway. It's a good way to raise their value and develop them a bit so you can cash in on them later.

[MyNameIsJohn]

Cleon could you or somebody else explain to me what youth category level does? I understand youth recruitment, coaching and facilities but the youth level category is a mystery!

[phnompenhandy]

Youth recruitment affects the PA of kids coming through your academy. The other one affects their CA. I think.

The higher the YR level, the wider the net to find kids with potential. The higher the other one, the better the training of under 15 year olds in your recruitment area.

[Telemachos]

Like 95 millions views on this thread... just sticky this one to the top! Great read!

Pele would be proud.

[Cleon]

Cleon could you or somebody else explain to me what youth category level does? I understand youth recruitment, coaching and facilities but the youth level category is a mystery!

Doesn't youth catergory indicate how good the facilities are and determine what youth league they play in? That's how it works in real life.

[allyc31]

Cleon,

A few questions if you don't mind;

1) What level of training do you set for your individual player training? Do you micro manage it for every player or do you set every player to the same level i.e. Very Heavy, Heavy etc.

Note, I don't mean the training level for the team but for each individual player.

This is a decision I struggle with the most regarding training. In my head I think it should probably be Heavy but I never seem to be able to replicate the results you get with individual training so I’m thinking this could be part of the reason.

I'm playing as Rangers who have a high level of both Training and Youth facilities.

2) Does the skill level of the coach assigned to tactics training affect how quickly tactics become fluid? I ask because I follow your guide (played 15 games in the most recent preseason, all 1 day apart), signed my players early and it still took me to the end of September to get fluid (pre 14.2.0 btw). The coach I have taking tactics training is only rated as 3 stars so is it this that is causing the delay in gaining fluidity?

3) On your post you have

Training Attribute

Basic 1-2

Fairly Basic 3-5

Adequate 6-9

Average 10-12

Good 13-15

Top 16-20

Youth Attribute

Minimal 1-2

Basic 3-5

Adequate 6-9

Average 10-13

Good 14-16

Excellent 17-18

State of Art 19-20

Are those labels ever present? As previously mentioned, I’m managing Rangers and their Training Rating is labelled as Superb however I don't see that in your list. Am I looking in the wrong place?

4) Last one (I promise). Anywhere on any of the views where you can see passing completion rates for teams and a competition? I couldn't see it. It's not overly important, just curious how my team is doing against the big guns.

Hopefully you have the time to answer some/all of them.

Thanks

Ally

[Cleon]

1 - I already explained this in the thread, everyone is on heavy individual training or heavy specific attribute training. The key to it working is to reduce the scheduling bar for general/match training and have it set to either 0/10/20%. I prefer to have it set to no match training so players get full benefit. Also remember that the player must have the right personality to develop.

2 - A 3 star one should have still had it full by the start of the season. So you either signed too many players, changed instructions/shape etc or missed one of the other steps.

3 - The wording might have been changed I'll have to have a look over the weekend.

4 - Why not just go back to the games against the big guns and look at the stats? it tells you the passing completion etc.

[allyc31]

Apologies for missing the individual training explanation.

Thanks for all the other info.

Ally

[Cleon]

1-3 poor

4-5 Basic

6-7 below average

8-9 adequate

10-11 average

12-13 good

14-15 great

16-17 superb

18-19 excellent

20 Top

Is the order now, I'll update OP when I get a chance

[allyc31]

Magic, thanks.

Has the Youth Training labels changed as well. Haven't looked at that yet.

Thanks

Ally