FM 2010 Demo - Are these really the Match Engine graphics?

[evilmatt]

Give me Sensible Soccer on the mega drive or snes over any modern day game.

Heathen! Everyone knows the true version of Sensi was on the Amiga!

[Svenc]

Theres a big difference between FM working on intel cards and Fifa needing a 7800.

Actually it's a GeForce 6600 - a card dating all the way back to 2005ish. Which makes the minimum requirements come scarily close to those of FM. But you can't put 3D off entirelly if you want to game on lacklustre onboard video or a machine gathering dust since 1899, true. Is FM in 3d really that smooth on the bulk of Intel onboard chips though? On max details FM appears to run quite jerky on some GeForce 7 cards, despite being that "out of touch". I've noticed some slight slowdowns on my GeForce 8600GT too, no matter what driver, and that is able to render PES2010 pretty much flawlessly.

Regardless, away with that FIFA/PES thing now. That is like so not the point.

[cynet]

Another point i did want to make and forgot to put it in my previous post was the fact it's not about graphics it's all about game play and FM10 ticks all the box's for this.

[Super Bladesman]

Wrong. PES/FIFA both run super smooth maxed out on CPUs and video cards that don't cost any more than a video game. Like FM. Regardless, the point wasn't even debating FIFA-like graphics. Surely the OP going all overboard comparing this to fifteen years old games should have hinted at that. It was, ah, well, I give up.

Good point about system resources though - FM IS quite resource heavy a game as is. Personally I shudder to think what it runs like with half a decent database on a lesser computer than mine, and mine is far from being a top of the line gaming machine. That more complex 3d models, player animations and the like would bog down the entire processing of the game looks another misconception though. After all, all that is being displayed in 3d is your own game, if you want to, that is. That wouldn't affect anything else in any kind of significant way. The (very much) same ol' match engine still remains the core of the thing going all around.

FM is also processing the results of potentially thousands of games in the background while displaying our match to us... That it works at all is a minor technical miracle

[Donald-Duck]

FM is also processing the results of potentially thousands of games in the background while displaying our match to us... That it works at all is a minor technical miracle

I've no idea if you can still do this, but if you run FIFA with 2 computers playing each other, it used to do really ******** things for most of the match.

[pbrover]

Why all the grumbling,I play FM and FIFA Manager and I enjoy both,one is an understanding of tactics ect and the other is entertainment so getting the best of both,well done to both companies.

[ledi]

Firstly:

Secondly FM needs to support low end spec computers as well, unlike FIFA which really needs to have high end graphics to cater for their audience. They spend a much larger proportion of their development time, work resources and money on visual things such as the animations. SI has only started to work on this area a year or two ago, while EA has worked on it for over a decade..

I also actually really like the abstractive smaller scale style of FM. Imagination works much better than close up animations that get old after watching them for five times.

[Svenc]

I've no idea if you can still do this, but if you run FIFA with 2 computers playing each other, it used to do really ******** things for most of the match.

Yes. And? FM's match engine remains FM's match engine, no matter what masking: text, 2d blops, 3d stick figures.

FM is also processing the results of potentially thousands of games in the background while displaying our match to us... That it works at all is a minor technical miracle

True, there's few to calculate for your video card with textures this blurry, and lighting this simple for instance, but there's lots to do for the processor. It also comes with a price though. I'd argue that "maxing out" FM is more expensive than maxing out a lot of games being out there, which kind of goes against that argument FM would do well on PCs bought in 2001. Well, it depends on your tolerance level in terms of patience, of course. And your database size. Or lack thereof each. First time I fired up my first ever FM I packed a good deal more than a dozen countries in my save. All playable. Huge database. I never did again.

After its hit-and-miss debut last year, the 3D match engine makes a return with a number of key enhancements. There are a hundred new animations, resulting in more believable player movements, though the action still appears to lack the level of visual detail and animation variety possessed by CM2010's debuting 3D action.

Balance, we need balance on an issue like this. FM's a game like any else, and just because somebody's arguing for a better level of presentation doesn't mean he's a shallow slob that should go look elsewhere.

I also actually really like the abstractive smaller scale style of FM. Imagination works much better than close up animations that get old after watching them for five times.

Definitely, I mean, better presentation doesn't mean they'd have to develop this into some kind of Match Of The Day match presentation, with lotsa flashy camera tricks, replays and close-up zooms to the WAGS alike. SI will probably never have the 3d resources to render a player's face, nor to model all the real player's faces in there, but there's a lot of room for improvent still.

Also, I can't believe that it is FIFA manager that's the first to include the hardcore authentic view-from-the-dugout cam. :/

[rbnrbn]

If Sims/RollerCoaster Tycoon etc can render beautifully on my computer and clearly be more advanced graphically, then why can't FM10s poxy 3D sprites move with fluidity, never mind being graphically inferior. Baffles me.

I have 2.5GB 3.2Mhz Processor with an Intel Chipset 945. Blasted Intel with their ****** chipsets, reet con.

[jayahr]

i think the magic word 'polish' was not primarily meant to refer to graphics of any kind but rather to every area in the game. They were looked to get closer to perfection rather than adding more stuff and leave all the rest in its sub-prime previous state.

[Rista]

FM doesn't really need better graphics as in detailed player models etc IMO. What it needs are better animations and a lot more of them. The 3D in FM09 was terrible. Every animation looked the same, not to mention it often wasn't synced with the ball, the players were ice skating and the whole thing resembled anything but a football match.

FM10 is definitely an improvement in this area. They've added more animations and players passing the ball around looks at least somewhat realistic now. The match still doesn't flow anywhere near as good as FIFA or PES (animation wise), but it's getting better. Not yet good enough for me to switch to 3D but if they keep adding new animations and improving the graphics at this rate, in a couple of years it's going to look pretty good. I do agree the graphics could be a lot better considering the system requirements though.

[Mitsunari]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with the level the graphics are at in the game considering when they were first put into place. People don’t given enough credit to the amount of work it takes to develop a 3D game engine from stage one. I finished doing game design as Salford in May. For our final year group project we were tasked with developing our own game using whatever engine we wanted to use.

Our programmer insisted on using an engine named Symmetry, a project he had been working on for the past five years. This was the best we could do with graphic. Notice the disjoined next on the character model. The bone structure didn’t cover over from 3D max with the animations correctly. We couldn’t even get basic animations within the game; this was after he had been coding this engine for five years. I think we submitted the final Demo with pretty much static animations and only one full character model, we were meant to have 5 full animated characters over the two levels for the demo version. If you happen to be interested in the game more or the engine search Matt Phillps and find his portfolio online. I think he had a downloadable version of Symmetry on there along with his Unreal Mod work.

The point is developing the match engine graphics to rival them inside Fifa and PES, within the space of two years simple isn’t going to happen. I remember Miles mentioning in the last Podcast that 3D wasn’t even suppose to be in 2009, they planned it as a 2010 feature. They only reason they imported into 2009 was because they had mange to get it working ahead of time and they liked it. I think if you watch a full match in 09 and then in 10 you’ll see how much it’s improved. The hiring of at least one 3D artist for this version has really helped on the graphics side and I’m sure next year the graphics will take a step up again.

Still to expect graphics like them seen in FIfa and PES within the short amount of time is asking a lot from the development team. Ok I admit it could maybe be done however all the work they would need in polishing the player animations, creating high quality pitch

textures, light mapping the stadiums, ect. It would either require taking on a lot more staff members, what’s the size of the development team working on Fifa and PES every year to get the graphics and gameplay up them standards? You would need the current SI team + one of that size just working just on match engine graphics and animations. Paying these extra staff would inflate the price of the game. Then they would no doubt be flamed for having it cost so much.

The other option would layoff the current coders, ect and replace them with staff to work on the getting the match graphics upto the standard you want. This in doing so you’re reducing the game-play side of the game for pretty match graphics that would you get in Fifa and PES. Lucky SI aren’t going to do either so just bare with the game. The graphics will improve but that’s a process that takes time, It might be another 5-10 years until they are up there with the modern Fifa and Pes. Just enjoy the match graphics that we have for the time being.

[Svenc]

Balanced post, this.

People don’t given enough credit to the amount of work it takes to develop a 3D game engine from stage one. I finished doing game design as Salford in May. For our final year group project we were tasked with developing our own game using whatever engine we wanted to use.

Yeah, but you've got to understand that this isn't a final project of some nice college lads, it's a major video game release coming from people working in this industry for quite a few years already. Being sold at a fair, but still full-price. People may get a little hard on SI there, but criticism is to be expected, what with a game this popular and huge lacking that far behind in terms ot technology.

Still to expect graphics like them seen in FIfa and PES within the short amount of time is asking a lot from the development team.

Emphasis on far behind, as SI are playing tech catch-up to games released seven, eight years ago, if not more, including a more recently released rival game made in the UK. I'd expect this issue to crop up in some reviews too again, but then SI have been called spreadsheet fetishists all along. Yet at the same time it's important to not wave all kinds of criticism aside, but to take from it what's valuable. I'm also not the one to get overly protective over SI, as they just have to deal with some heat, and given their rep as mhmh fetishists I'm sure they can. They may have once been a small garage development team working on spit and a shoestring budget and team, and compared to the industry behemoths they still are, but on this level of exposure and prestige they are expected to push a little harder by some people's standards.

[CaptainPlanet]

Have never once bought a game based on graphics. Don't understand why people are interested in pretty graphics. Really don't want ANY significant FM developer resource spent on improving them when they could be doing anything else.

[fmobande]

OP if i care about match graphics ill play Fifa manager

[Äktsjon Männ]

Have never once bought a game based on graphics. Don't understand why people are interested in pretty graphics. Really don't want ANY significant FM developer resource spent on improving them when they could be doing anything else.

So you'd rather have the 3D development team working on the training module or what exactly? You don't think they'd be better off doing something they're a bit more competent at - like, you know, developing the 3D engine or something?

Really don't understand the people who seem dead set against improvements in this area. It's as if they want the game to look poor for some sort of masochistic purposes. Strange.

[CaptainPlanet]

So you'd rather have the 3D development team working on the training module or what exactly? You don't think they'd be better off doing something they're a bit more competent at - like, you know, developing the 3D engine or something?

Judging by what's been done so far, I don't think the currently employeed people working on the 3D match representation are purely 3D development experts and are most likely multi-skilled. In which case there's a million more things they could be doing other than trying to make more animations and makes little sprites prettier.

Really don't understand the people who seem dead set against improvements in this area. It's as if they want the game to look poor for some sort of masochistic purposes. Strange.

I still play in 2D, I know others who still only play in text. Graphics being added holds totally no interest to me whatsoever, they could be Fifa10 graphics and I still wouldn't give a monkeys.

[dave byrd]

Just downloaded the demo and played through it for a while.

Given all the hoo-hah about "polish" this year I have to ask one thing.....are these the best graphics you could come up with, SI? Really? Because it's pretty bloody ugly for a game coming out in 2009. In fact, the match engine looks like something from around 1997, a certain Playstation title called Actua Soccer! Anyone remember that?

I'm sure you guys will tell us about all the stuff that went in under the bonnet, and of course that's what we're all far more interested in, but there are plenty of games out there that are as complex as FM and they manage to at least look like games that came out in this decade.

Maybe the number one priority for 2011 should be getting the game to look nice. It's really not that hard - even terrible titles made by total morons manage to look better than this.

I go for realism and immersion rather than fancy graphics. If all you're bothered about is the game looking 'nice' i think you're failing to grasp what football manager is all about.

[tcoleman1]

Does the OP realise that Football Manager isn't in the same league as Fifa or Pro. They are games designed to look like that, where the only bit that really matters is what the match engine is like. I am extremely sure that if the people at Konami and EA Sports tried to make Fifa anything as complex as FM then they would have a very hard time, and you would probably moan that it is unrealistic.

I thought the 09 match engine had some flaws and looked a bit rough, but generally it was very good. Real FM fans would appreciate this upgrade from the usual dots.

[Lucho]

I don't agree with the tone of the original post.

Even so, I do believe that more varied animations do add to the immersive quality of the game. Maybe seeing your player hold his leg in pain after a foul is pointless, but by that logic, custom phrases in press conferences should also be removed. But as SI are slowly building on the animations and adding new ones with each release, I don't think such harsh criticism is justified.

[Norville Rodgers]

Not sure I agree with you, tcoleman1, "Real FM fans would appreciate this upgrade from the usual dots". I'm still a huge fan of the dots, only using the 3D for certain replays. Sure, by todays standards, the 3D ias basic, but then it's a visual tool to see if your tactics work. Doesn't need to be much more than it is.

[GAZMANGOLF]

All a matter of opinion isnt it! I personally think the 3d is excellent and the game itself is a massive step up from the 09.If you dont like it enough,you dont buy it do you? Thats why you try a demo isnt it?

[fmobande]

FM wasn't a game that was created for 3D matches this is still new for S.I. Remember Fifa 99 they started with not good graphics, but developed into something great for FM a game that was showing 2D matches for how many years and been focusing in what its suppose to be about (management). Recently they realised 3D in 09 they are going to start of easy and continue and improve each year cause this is the start of a new Match Sim generation.

[dsch]

Realise that better graphics is not just a matter of polygons and fancy lighting that can be done by a few 3D artists. There is the interface between the match engine, the physics, and the graphics to think about. I suspect the animations look "primitive" because the match engine does not currently compute, for example, which part of a player's boot the ball comes off, or how two players collide*. With better graphics, all of this would have to be reworked so it behaves as expected.

I expect that to develop FIFA like graphics would involve the creation of a whole new department, with corresponding changes in the organisation of the rest of the team, i.e., not going to happen. The sense of entitlement in some of the posts above ("I paid for it so I can demand changes.") is a bit disconcerting.

*Look at how improved player collisions was one of the major "new" features of the recent FIFA games.

[Svenc]

The sense of entitlement in some of the posts above ("I paid for it so I can demand changes.") is a bit disconcerting.

Not that I'm defending some of the tone in this thread, but even those who haven't paid anything yet are entitled to voice their assassment, be it negative or no. I find the opposite attitude displayed in this thread far more disconcerting. And one more time I'm going to read "FIFA" or "FIFA-like graphics" in this very thread and I'm going to explode. Bit funny considering that even in the, er, ear-catcher that is the opening post the magic four letters weren't dropped once.

All a matter of opinion isnt it!

NO it isn't. Whoever openly says that SI are lacking years behind even half-way contemporary 3d standards is better off playing FIFA or any other crap like that. What do you mean graphics I never download badges, skins or anything, I'm true. FM is true. True FM fans don't critizise, they appreciate what they've got. I don't care about the 3d anyway so I don't care about what you say, I just ordered a pre-scription for the next ten editions each and fed my video card to the kittens!!! More news at eleven.

Ooops.

You're perfectly right, by the way.

[dsch]

Not that I'm defending some of the tone in this thread, but even those who haven't paid anything yet are entitled to voice their assessment, be it negative or no. I find the opposite attitude displayed in this thread far more disconcerting. And one more time I'm going to read "FIFA" or "FIFA-like graphics" in this very thread and I'm going to explode. Bit funny considering that even in the, er, ear-catcher that is the opening post the magic four letters weren't dropped once.

Care to explain why the opposite view is disconcerting?

"FIFA" is just a byword for "better graphics" anyway. Perhaps someone can suggest specific improvements that we can refer to?

[englandmanager]

Just downloaded the demo and played through it for a while.

Given all the hoo-hah about "polish" this year I have to ask one thing.....are these the best graphics you could come up with, SI? Really? Because it's pretty bloody ugly for a game coming out in 2009. In fact, the match engine looks like something from around 1997, a certain Playstation title called Actua Soccer! Anyone remember that?

I'm sure you guys will tell us about all the stuff that went in under the bonnet, and of course that's what we're all far more interested in, but there are plenty of games out there that are as complex as FM and they manage to at least look like games that came out in this decade.

Maybe the number one priority for 2011 should be getting the game to look nice. It's really not that hard - even terrible titles made by total morons manage to look better than this.

you forgot one major flaw good sir,

SI cannot cater for everyone, you want good graphics on a football manager sim? fine

but then the same people then start complaining that their 4 year old com cannot run the game due to the new swanky graphics system

the thing is if SI created the most perfect game ever and the only flaw was a misprinted letter on the cd case, people (being the nitpicking twits we are) would notice this one misprint rather than concentrate on the game itself because they cannot find a fault with the game

SI can't do anything right, year after year they change things for us and yet people have to moan and whinge about 1 small thing that quite frankly doesn't make much of a difference in this game

[Bluebeard]

Just want to say that I think it looks great (highest detail, 24" widescreen)

[Ezequiel_Lavezzi]

42'' lcd monitor here.

The only bad thing I can say about this match engine, well 2 things.

1. Players arent aggressive enough, they seem to ball watch/stand around a lot

2. The players sort of look a little out of proportion in terms of their physical size to the pitch. The way the game graphics are designed it seems almost as if the games are played on a smaller sized field, not at a massive stadium. I did not get this problem with 09, but I feel a bit more confinded watching my team with 2010.

Other than that, I was most pleased, huge improvement to FM 2009!

[Svenc]

Care to explain why the opposite view is disconcerting?

"FIFA" is just a byword for "better graphics" anyway.

It's also the catch-phrase that appears to trigger kneejerk-defensive reactionary arguments a la: go play FIFA if you want graphics. The opposite view consists of mostly exactly this, writing people's assessments off as shallow and sketchy at best - as if the inclusion of 3d visuals wasn't down to any kind of cosmetics in the first place. I've been trying to fight against that in my very first post. And I'm one of those that is pretty fine with the engine as is now, at its most fluid it's quite cool to look at, goals, possession game and all. Doesn't stop me from stating that the 3d tech is years behind pretty much every 3d game there is on the market currently - talking FIFA given the current status quo of FM's 3d visuals isn't even really an option. People notice. And they react. That isn't shallow. It's just the way things are with tech this off.

This turning into a rather long thread, we're going circles now - people come in, take a peek and post the same fluke-arguments that have already been adressed countless times before, like that adding a bit more of visual flavor (higher res pitch and spectator textures, floodlights lighting night games, etc.) would increase the minimum-requirements of the game and thus cause the supposedly core fan base that is running computers built in the last century to explode. It's not as if there were detail options put in the engine as is now, no. It's not as if the 3d stuff is fully optional, too. And it's not as if SI hadn't already improved the eye candy compared to last year's. Ah well.

[dsch]

So how would you improve the graphics? Would you like better animations, more detail? Perhaps you can also consider the challenges I mentioned.

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

This turning into a rather long thread, we're going circles now - people come in, take a peek and post the same fluke-arguments that have already been adressed countless times before, like that adding a bit more of visual flavor (higher res pitch and spectator textures, floodlights lighting night games, etc.) would increase the minimum-requirements of the game and thus cause the supposedly core fan base that is running computers built in the last century to explode.

Agree with most of what you've said in this thread, Svenc.

You mention spectator textures. That's probably the #1 thing that sticks in my mind as something that instantly (and needlessly) drags down the visual quality way beyond where it should be in this day and age. I don't normally criticise this sort of thing, but I'm gonna make an exception this time (and hope that on the off-chance that the poor sod responsible for the spectator graphics is reading this, that he understands where I'm coming from and can have a little chuckle even )...

The spectators are bad. Very bad. And the reason that they're bad is because they let a programmer choose the colours!

I challenge anyone to tell me the last time they went to a football match wearing a green shirt (excluding fans of any team who play in green), and was sat next to someone in a cyan top on their right, and another chap sat on their left wearing a magenta outfit.

[Mojby]

The match engine is only in its second term on Football Manager, most true FM fans wouldnt care if it had a 3d match engine or not because its a very small part of the game. I think when set in the highest detail it actually looks quite nice and is a vast improvement over last years. Stop being so picky and respect the game for what it is, a plethora of data, if you want graphics go and play FIFA.

Grimoz - i totally agree with you on this one. If you want graphics get FIFA 2010. The graphics are not bad on a largely text orientated game and imo they are better than last years. Remember, they said 'polish' not an overhaul. If the graphics were to be the same standard as FIFA then the amount of work involved would be massive and to be honest not needed.

[brightonrock]

To have photo-realistic graphics a la FIFA or PES as well as a database of, how many, 3-400,000+ players and staff accurately researched from around the world, a complex transfer, media and morale system, licenses, commentary etc yada yada...we'd need our own personal NASA supercomputers, and probably by the time that's possible we'll be sitting on floating chairs in houses made of plastic. The more they enhance the game graphically the more people bitch and moan about needing new PCs and how its shocking to play a game they have to spend hundreds of pounds on new hardware etc. I don't begrudge SI the job they do because either way they can literally never win. Jesus, people need to realise the point of the game is management, the behind the scenes, and the tactics on the pitch. My laptop couldn't run 3D on FM09 and from the looks the demo will struggle with FM10 too. I cope with top-down 2D dots and think the way the players move, take up runs and respond to tweaks in tactics/formation is incredible. Try doing anything you can on FM with the same dexterity and precision on, say, FIFA. You can't. Because half the point of FIFA is to look pretty. And besides, a PS3 or XBox can process a game like FIFA because its entire purpose is to play games, 100% of its processing is aimed at graphics and the physical action of sport. A PC, Laptop or Mac can run a game, sure, but what's their main purpose, their reason d'etre? Flippin' typing.

[urbanjunkie]

Moon on a stick.

Some of you guys would criticise waking up in bed with three women because 'there would be no room for the pizza'.

The 3D is more than fine. One step at a time. It's just another representation of the ME. And a mighty good one too.

[dsch]

Agree with most of what you've said in this thread, Svenc.

You mention spectator textures. That's probably the #1 thing that sticks in my mind as something that instantly (and needlessly) drags down the visual quality way beyond where it should be in this day and age. I don't normally criticise this sort of thing, but I'm gonna make an exception this time (and hope that on the off-chance that the poor sod responsible for the spectator graphics is reading this, that he understands where I'm coming from and can have a little chuckle even )...

The spectators are bad. Very bad. And the reason that they're bad is because they let a programmer choose the colours!

I challenge anyone to tell me the last time they went to a football match wearing a green shirt (excluding fans of any team who play in green), and was sat next to someone in a cyan top on their right, and another chap sat on their left wearing a magenta outfit.

I thought it was because they are swaying 2D sprites.

But really, is that the only suggestion there is from those who want to see "better graphics?"

Edit: looks like the "improve graphics" discussion is going to need a new thread with a less inflammatory title.

[mertle]

I dont care if the graphics in 3D mode arent as good as FIFA or PES.

FM is a football management game and 2 years ago we had text. The 3D engine is fine for this type of game and whilst PES and FIFA look great thats all the developers have to focus on, the majority of FM is none graphical based.

FM is by far the best management game around and is so without top of the range graphics. It just doesnt need them.

spot on we dont need jaw dropping graphics but functioning graphics which then means it can run on more computers. My machine jerking now akthough its watchable/palletable with the 3d any higher I wont be able to play it I dont want to fork out on latest graphics card or buy new pc just play what is essence a spreadsheet game(sorry not being offensive si). Especially When I Dont Play any other PC game out there. They dont interest me and those games which do they on my PS3.

Why this game sells shed loads as it dont need beast machines to run it Although I welcome 3d as visual aid it right also not to push the envelope to PES level visiuals or LMA level graphics.

The graphics are at the right stand point not too heavy on graphics cards but give you nice visual show of action.

[lawsie]

its not a graphical game. If you want graphics go play crysis or something. This is a management sim. I care not one bit about the graphics or lack thereof and im sure most other people don't either. Also i am willing to guess that a large proportion of the people who play this game, only play this game and no others and as such posess a modest pc system. (guessing the market ftw?)

[urbanjunkie]

What mertle said.

The nitpicking on here about the colour of the spectators...this isn't WWE v Smackdown. Its FM.

[Svenc]

Regarding the stadium, I think managing games need to show most or all of the pitch the whole time which makes it easier to spot deficiencies in the view. I personally find the graphics in FIFAManager quite ugly and suffering from the same problem. These people are pioneers, so we have to give them time.

Good point which I just noticed, looking at a virtual football match for this long really brings out the flaws of visuals and animatinos more and more. There's the point where you'll notice all the repeating patterns particularly in terms of animation - Euphoria engine hasn't taken off that big as of yet. ;D

Last year's demo was my first peak at a FIFA Man 3d match in quite some time myself. EA doesn't really keep the PC counterpart of its engine up to scratch itself, and as such Bright Future probably suffer a bit themselves, but it really didn't look all that great. I mean, not merely in terms of the sim aspect of a match, but visually. When the visuals aren't zoomed in this looks like a 2005ish FIFA game itself. Looking at

this year's version looks somewhat close to FM actually, except that the textures are just much crisper and the animations more fluid.

It's because in some details FM's visuals aren't actually that off - the shadows the player cast are fairly accurate and almost look out of place compared to the 2d bitmap crowd, with the same three four frames of animation looping over and over. Perhaps it's also that kind of inconsistency that makes it look more "dated" than needed be. On the one hand you've got horribly pixelated textures lining the outlines of a pitch in particular, on the other there are frames of animation that look perfectly fluid - only to be interrupted by players rapidly turning their head left and right in an endless loop as if they were about to cross a street at rush hour, rather than waiting to receive the ball to make a throw-in.

Speaking of textures and animations, which of course, would be the most obvious starting point. Seeing that 256 megs of video aren't merely dime a dozen, but entering the realms of all thing obsolete, there's no need to have some of those that blurry in the game. For everyone running lesser cards there IS a detail setting, alright? dsch, I dunno how the inner workings of the match engine really tick, but fair point about it being a bit of a challenge to synchronize all those animations with the engine running underneath. It is probably that what's making movement a bit jerky itself, and in any case, it looks much more fluid as last year already. Then, floodlight. Lighting in general. It's a bit of a stretch to expect HDR lighting in the game, and the shadows being cast from the stands already add a good deal of visual depth during daylight already, but there is no floodlight at night games, is there?

[dsch]

I actually suspect that the match engine underneath was never set up to provide the kind of detail required to guide a good animation. The jerkiness is probably not due to the animations themselves, but to fudges in the match engine. It didn't matter before, because they'd just show up as a dot ambiguously twisting, but the 3d makes it more obvious. So, if anything, the animations might need to be less synchronised with the machine engine to be smoother, or maybe there could be an ironing-out-chinks pass after the play is calculated, but that would add on more processing time at the start of the game, and every time tactics are changed. It still doesn't overcome the difficulty that the match engine simply does not calculate physics and player actions in sufficient detail, and, in effect, has no information to give to be animated. (I mean, the way I would have simulated a pass is to just to determine a start point and end point for the ball, then apply a randomised error function based on player skill. I would not be simulating a boot striking a ball, and then trying to figure out where the ball ends up.)

The shadows and lighting are good ideas, though I'm starting to find teams a little hard to distinguish in the shadows in this edition already. Considering many people watch from a very high view, usability has to be an issue. Also, it would seem a bit out of place to have nice textures and lighting, but still be stuck with jerky animations. It's the uncanny valley effect. Personally, I think we're at a pretty decent compromise right now between cartoony and realistic.

Lastly, don't you think having a realistic crowd, or even a crowd composed of current player models, would be distracting?

[Tiree_Don]

Graphics have never, ever, ever, been an important part of the cm/fm experience.

As a innocent 11 year old, I bought the original 'red box with guy pointing' Championship Manager. No graphics were needed, just a few bits of text telling me if my team scored, or someone was booked. The fun was not in the matches, but in finding players, setting formations etc. The match day was a very small part of the experience.

Fast forward 17 years and what I want from the game is no different. The most fun is developing young players, scouting for undiscovered talent, wheeling and dealing for players, finding decent backroom staff.

Graphics are not too important, indeed, if it wasn't for the importance of tactics, I'd still be happy with text commentary. I have a XBox if I want a fifa or a pes.

I use the 'Elite' analogy, not the most visually stunning game, but after 25 years still considered one of the best ever

[Sad Git]

FM's graphics are appallingly bad. And no, I wasn't expecting it to look like FIFA/ Crysis / WWE v Smackdown (delete as appropriate.) Not one critic on this forum has ever tried to make that comparison and it's becoming extremely tedious when the fanboys keep bringing it up. I'm not bothered about having 3d and like many other people prefer the 2d anyway. But those of us who have been playing since the CM days remember that SI always used to swear that they wouldn't put in graphics until the technology was advanced enough to produce a realistic visual representation of football. So when we clapped eyes on the 3d after 15 years of waiting you can imagine our disappointment. Hence the criticism. If they were going to put 3d in they should have done it properly. The prevailing philosophy seems to be "It'll do" but that's not really good enough for a full-priced product that is bought loyally every year by record numbers of fans.

[ray27]

When 3D match engine was first announced for fm09 my heart sank fm has never been about great graphics its been about the stats and so on introducing the 3d brings birth to threads like this, in my view get rid of 3d leave it at 2d

[EricTan]

The match engine is only in its second term on Football Manager, most true FM fans wouldnt care if it had a 3d match engine or not because its a very small part of the game. I think when set in the highest detail it actually looks quite nice and is a vast improvement over last years. Stop being so picky and respect the game for what it is, a plethora of data, if you want graphics go and play FIFA.

I agree with Grimoz..

[insai]

Is it too much to ask for both? Some people are trying to re-frame the argument, unsuccessfully.

I'm happy with the current graphics, because I would hate it more if it were "good" graphics i.e. FIFA 1998, where the players were pixelated and ugly. And didn't have fingers.

fifa98 was the most fun i've had playing a (non-management) football game until fifa09 i was stoked my Fiji national team were there to take to the world cup and win!

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

I thought it was because they are swaying 2D sprites.

Not necessarily, you can still achieve pretty good results with sprites. Most "next-gen" sports games still (technically) use sprites for the crowds - or "impostors" to be more precise.

But really, is that the only suggestion there is from those who want to see "better graphics?"

Ha, no it's certainly not the only suggestion. But it's the only criticism I feel comfortable making out of professional-courtesy, as hopefully the "programmer-art" in-joke, and tongue-in-cheek nature would be taken in good spirits by those concerned.

However, while slightly tongue-in-cheek, it is also absolutely serious at the same time. A little more attention to the palette of colours chosen would make a relatively big difference, given that it would not require any additional resources, not require any additional processing power, and would not have any impact on the quality of the match-engine/physics/database-size etc., which are the main fears that people seem to have whenever anyone dares to have slightly higher ambitions about the visual quality.

I'm not about to criticise SI for what they have achieved. But at the same time, I don't see why people should be prohibited from trying to drive them on to bigger and better things.

[rbnrbn]

So you'd rather have the 3D development team working on the training module or what exactly? You don't think they'd be better off doing something they're a bit more competent at - like, you know, developing the 3D engine or something?

Really don't understand the people who seem dead set against improvements in this area. It's as if they want the game to look poor for some sort of masochistic purposes. Strange.

Totally agree. Balls to nostalgia, get with the times peeps!

[Svenc]

Re: Specators. Yup, even up-to-date games cheat their way out of this. In PES (I think in the current version too) the only time specators are actually 3d models is when they're shown up close, like in the cutscenes prior to a match. Otherwise, they're flat 2d "bitmaps" too. The difference is that they don't look like a last-minute cardboard cutout job, where all the edges cut around the bitmap graphics they were taken from are visible - and the source material isn't that nedlessly low-res.

Like I said, it's inconsistent. Here you've got player models casting real-time shadows, and then you've got stuff like this or this. This along with some equally pixelated textures isn't down to low-tech, this is down to a sloppy art job.

[Richardav]

i would hate to see football manager with fifa like graphics it will ruin the game i think the match mode is good enough