Wakers Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Wakers - can you statistically prove that the number of people that agree with a worsening game is increasing? No, thought not. can you prove that it isnt? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith1977 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 No, but I never made any statements either way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I expect the game to improve year on year. It has barely moved forward for me the last two releases. A lot will disagree, a lot will agree - but the number that agree is rising.btw, about two months ago I made a long list of bugs i see regularly in the game since 9.2, i might digg it up for you if i can be bothered. Needless to say, it was a long, long list. Sales figures haven't gone down though. And according to forum poles, love for FM09 is way up on FM08. You have nothing to back up your claims. You aren't wrong to expect and demand perfection, but what we have now is better than anything else that's on the market and anything that's been on the market before. FM09 is THE best football management computer game in the world. Warts and all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forzautd Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 can you prove that it isnt? the burden of proof is on you wakers. you made the statement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 can you prove that it isnt? http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=74878 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remco Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 can you prove that it isnt? Well, this thread is a game by itself. Bedtime, otherwise I will start dreaming about all this (Sorry I'm beginning to fail being serious) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakers Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Well you implied one, which was completely off topic in the first place. Take a look at some of the polls around here - a large number want the game fixed in preference to adding new features - if that doesn't suggest that a fair number think that things are going wrong, nothing will. Resorting to saying "statistically prove this or that" is a complete cop out by the way - you don't feel like debating properly so you resort to that! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith1977 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Result for Smithy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakers Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Sales figures haven't gone down though. And according to forum poles, love for FM09 is way up on FM08.You have nothing to back up your claims. You aren't wrong to expect and demand perfection, but what we have now is better than anything else that's on the market and anything that's been on the market before. FM09 is THE best football management computer game in the world. Warts and all. Sales figures? Considering that most stores don't allow return of pc games once they've been opened, sales figures are not reliable. Does everyone that buys a music cd like the album? No. We're getting dragged off topic here, because people are trying to derail the argument, which isn't a total shock in this place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Well you implied one, which was completely off topic in the first place. Take a look at some of the polls around here - a large number want the game fixed in preference to adding new features - if that doesn't suggest that a fair number think that things are going wrong, nothing will.Resorting to saying "statistically prove this or that" is a complete cop out by the way - you don't feel like debating properly so you resort to that! Debating opinions on the internet vs factual evidence. Gee let me think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakers Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Asking people to prove something when the statistics would take hours upon hours to collate is a bit of a cop out, no? I don't think everyone would disagree with me if i were to suggest that the bad feeling has been worse this year than last year. Could that be due to larger sales numbers? possibly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forzautd Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Well you implied one, which was completely off topic in the first place. Take a look at some of the polls around here - a large number want the game fixed in preference to adding new features - if that doesn't suggest that a fair number think that things are going wrong, nothing will.Resorting to saying "statistically prove this or that" is a complete cop out by the way - you don't feel like debating properly so you resort to that! your arguement is flawed though mate. by its very nature there will be more people complaining. thats just human nature. people wont take the time to come on here and create threads saying how much they love the game will they? so unless you can corrolate all the complaint threads for fm08 and compare them with those of fm09 then you have no way of knowing that what you said is a fact. and even if you could do that it still wouldnt prove anything. If the number of people who bought fm09 has gone up, then the number of people complaining will have gone up aswell simples Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakers Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 i don't remember saying 'its statistically proven that more people are unhappy with the game' - unless i have a split personality syndrome of some sort? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith1977 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Maybe when I play the game I simply don't see the bugs. Maybe I don't play in the Finnish Premier League to notice that a team name is spelt incorrectly. Maybe I don't analyse the 3D matchplay enough spot that the player movements is not realistic. I don't know. The fact is, on every version I look for the new features and generally enjoy them. For me, the 3D matchplay is enough of an improvement to put this ahead of practically every other version. As for the difficulty level, I never really form an opinion as to whether the AI is too difficult. If I am not doing very well then I consider I am doing a crap job. If I do well then I consider I am a brilliant manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakers Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 tbf its the spanish and german leagues that have problems, and its more than typos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmith1977 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Fair enough, but I don't like to manage in those leagues. England all the way for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 You could argue whatever you want. But if sales aren't down and the most recent opinion poll on the forums suggests that the lastest version is everyones favourite version you're doing nothing but splitting hairs. There are things to be improved on. I can't think of a game that doesn't, especially with such a wide audience. You can't please everyone. I know people who are playing on 9.0 and don't think anything is wrong with the game, I know people on 9.2 who hate it, everyone has different levels of expectation. But like I said, if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Which is more likely to result in a better future version of the game? Moaning and generally being negative on the forums, or helping out with the testing and bug reporting with stats and figures over anecdotal evidence? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forzautd Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 i don't remember saying 'its statistically proven that more people are unhappy with the game' - unless i have a split personality syndrome of some sort? no, you said that the number of people complaining has increased since last yr. capi planet asked you too prove it. and you said the feeling around here is that the game has gotten worse. Maybe when I play the game I simply don't see the bugs. Maybe I don't play in the Finnish Premier League to notice that a team name is spelt incorrectly. Maybe I don't analyse the 3D matchplay enough spot that the player movements is not realistic. I don't know. The fact is, on every version I look for the new features and generally enjoy them. For me, the 3D matchplay is enough of an improvement to put this ahead of practically every other version. As for the difficulty level, I never really form an opinion as to whether the AI is too difficult. If I am not doing very well then I consider I am doing a crap job. If I do well then I consider I am a brilliant manager. exactly mate! If I lose its my fault, not the games. If I win, then its due to me being good at the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 i don't remember saying 'its statistically proven that more people are unhappy with the game' - unless i have a split personality syndrome of some sort? I think the reference comes from your post: A lot will disagree, a lot will agree - but the number that agree is rising. You say the number is rising but you don't have any statistics Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Asking people to prove something when the statistics would take hours upon hours to collate is a bit of a cop out, no?I don't think everyone would disagree with me if i were to suggest that the bad feeling has been worse this year than last year. Could that be due to larger sales numbers? possibly. I would. The general lack of complaining for FM09 is something we have remarked on in the Mods room. FM07 and FM08 were much, much tougher on release. There is a vocal minority that don't like the game that post consistently in the one or two 'anti-FM09' threads that decorate the main board. Although I agree with some of their points, especially those of the more constructive complainers (Rupal springs to mind), a lot of it is unsubstantiated opinion, largely related to how one plays the game. For example, the ME is not horribly broken, nor unreadable. If it were, then I wouldn't be able to read it. It's not perfect, but it's perfectly functionable, bar a few annoying bugs. Given how few people can actually pinpoint why these bugs happen (it's not enough to say 'there are too many one on ones'. We know that. The question is 'why'?) the ME is a work of some excellence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyPass Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Personally I think it's a great game. I used one of the default tactics and adapted it with a bit of help from the tactics forum. As with previous versions it doesn't pay to stick with the same tactic all the time because the games AI learns to overcome it. Also, what works in League Two doesn't always work in the Championship, Premiership etc... The biggest thrill has to be when you're all square heading into injury time and you can actually watch one of your little players bang it into the top corner! Maybe if you really think SI are losing customers, then maybe they could help you by producing a proper game for people who like a challenge and the satisfaction of doing well, and another game for children who want to switch it on, have a super tactic loaded as their default tactic, a chairman willing to splash millions on new players, wonderkid regens each year, the best coaches, training facilities etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndebergerac Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 now this game is impossible, you have to be a tactical genious and have loads of time on your hands Not true, you have to be able to crack the codes. This game has nothing to do with being a tactical genius. I've had success at some clubs, less at others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stokes_83 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I hate to say it but I think difficulty levels may be something SI should seriously consider. I myself don't have any issues but I have spent a great prtion of my life figuring this game out, and many people may not be willing to do so. It In FM Live they have dumbed down the tactics (at the start anyway) I don't see why they couldn't do the same here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pires29 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Being an avid CM/FM buyer for the last 9 years i can never see myself not buying this game when a new release comes out, but I do think that this game has lost alot of it's 'pick up and play' appeal about it. I remember when I bought my 1st CM I was 12 years old and wasn't a tactical master who understood all the ins and outs of football, all i wanted to do was pick a team, buy players and win games and this is what got me into the game was that it was simple to understand and you could instantly get into the game. As the years have gone by i've found the games quest for realism has meant an increase in the difficulty with all the new features and different tactical options that have been added, some will think this is a good thing (me included), and some will find it a bad thing. What I fear is that for a person buying this game for the 1st time it will be alot harder to get immersed into the game, therefor possibly alienating them from which on the whole is an excellent game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Come On Boro Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I have to agree that the game is too hard but, not because of the tactics. I got took over by a tycoon and had pretty much unlimited funds. I had a team full of world class players yet, I was still finding games hard. Now, before someone says it's my tactics, it isn't. There is no option in the tactics screen for my players to continuously slow down when running for balls, or do stupid sideways runs. That's just two of many, many game spoiling bugs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forzautd Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Being an avid CM/FM buyer for the last 9 years i can never see myself not buying this game when a new release comes out, but I do think that this game has lost alot of it's 'pick up and play' appeal about it. I remember when I bought my 1st CM I was 12 years old and wasn't a tactical master who understood all the ins and outs of football, all i wanted to do was pick a team, buy players and win games and this is what got me into the game was that it was simple to understand and you could instantly get into the game. As the years have gone by i've found the games quest for realism has meant an increase in the difficulty with all the new features and different tactical options that have been added, some will think this is a good thing (me included), and some will find it a bad thing. What I fear is that for a person buying this game for the 1st time it will be alot harder to get immersed into the game, therefor possibly alienating them from which on the whole is an excellent game. I understand what you're saying. I was 12 when I bought my first CM. and the thing is, as a 23 yr old, i wouldnt be at all satisfied playing that game now. id get bored after 1 season. IMO the challenge of the game is all the fun. I have more fun struggling against relegation than going for the league for the 5th yr running. but like you say, the pick up and play for first timers has been lost. I feel sorry for a kid who buys fm09 like i bought cm 97/98. a friend of mine went from cm01/02 to fm08 and it took him ages to figure it out. but he perciviered and eventually became good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankee_ram Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 This is one reason I dont come to the forums often, someone voices an opinion and they are jumped all over for voicing it. I understand the OP frustrations regarding this years version. There are still many bugs that I am sure will probally not all be worked out, the tactics are a frustrating part of this year and I have been struggling like I never have. I agree that the "pick up and play" feeling I got when I first played FM 06 is lost. Why are people unable to come on these boards and voice an opinion w/out getting slated right off the bat? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPlanet Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Why are people unable to come on these boards and voice an opinion w/out getting slated right off the bat? It's not what they say, it's the way that they say it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I would. The general lack of complaining for FM09 is something we have remarked on in the Mods room. FM07 and FM08 were much, much tougher on release. There is a vocal minority that don't like the game that post consistently in the one or two 'anti-FM09' threads that decorate the main board. Although I agree with some of their points, especially those of the more constructive complainers (Rupal springs to mind), a lot of it is unsubstantiated opinion, largely related to how one plays the game. For example, the ME is not horribly broken, nor unreadable. If it were, then I wouldn't be able to read it. It's not perfect, but it's perfectly functionable, bar a few annoying bugs. Given how few people can actually pinpoint why these bugs happen (it's not enough to say 'there are too many one on ones'. We know that. The question is 'why'?) the ME is a work of some excellence. maybe some of vocal minority is getting tired with constant promises that this and that is rewritten and fixed when actually things got even worse? many of us were trying to be as constructive as it gets over last couple of years. we don't hate SI, we have been loyal customers for more than a decade and we have every right to be angry when things that should be fixed years ago are not. the biggest problem is that this list is just getting bigger and bigger. ME might be perfectly functionable but it's also very unenjoyable. if you asked me 3 or 5 years ago i would have expected a lot more from it. but it's still catching the basics. nothing has been changed (training, tactical interface, AI tactics) or much improved (ME, media interaction, team talkes...) some things got even worse imo (transfers, player attributes, player ratings,) and most of new features don't add much to the game or worse. only 3d is something that could prove good in long term - and that was introduced becouse of the competition (even last year SI claimed that they have no intention for making 3d ME, if my memory serves me well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 We could all just agree with him or remain silent if we didn't, although it wouldn't make it much of a forum, would it? The forum would look like this: FM Sucks --------------- I think Fm sucks. Who agrees? --------------- I do --------------- Me too --------------- And me FM Rocks --------------- I think FM rocks. Who agrees? --------------- I do --------------- Me too --------------- And me Forums exist for expressing and debating opinion. If you express a strong one, you need to accept that equally strong dissenting voices will make themselves heard. If you support your opinion with dubious (i.e. made up) facts, then you leave yourself open to ridicule. Ignorance is not a point of view. However, I don't think the OP has been treated particularly harshly here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankee_ram Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 It's not what they say, it's the way that they say it. Agreed but that goes both ways. People could and some should voice thier frustrations better but attacking them from the get go has no constructive purpose what so ever. Instead of trying to understand and help they attack, what good is that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forzautd Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 This is one reason I dont come to the forums often, someone voices an opinion and they are jumped all over for voicing it. I understand the OP frustrations regarding this years version. There are still many bugs that I am sure will probally not all be worked out, the tactics are a frustrating part of this year and I have been struggling like I never have. I agree that the "pick up and play" feeling I got when I first played FM 06 is lost. Why are people unable to come on these boards and voice an opinion w/out getting slated right off the bat? look at what the OP wrote! thats why he got slated. its not exactly constructive is it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 maybe some of vocal minority is getting tired with constant promises that this and that is rewritten and fixed when actually things got even worse? many of us were trying to be as constructive as it gets over last couple of years. we don't hate SI, we have been loyal customers for more than a decade and we have every right to be angry when things that should be fixed years ago are not. the biggest problem is that this list is just getting bigger and bigger. ME might be perfectly functionable but it's also very unenjoyable. if you asked me 3 or 5 years ago i would have expected a lot more from it. but it's still catching the basics. nothing has been changed (training, tactical interface, AI tactics) or much improved (ME, media interaction, team talkes...) some things got even worse imo (transfers, player attributes, player ratings,) and most of new features don't add much to the game or worse. only 3d is something that could prove good in long term - and that was introduced becouse of the competition (even last year SI claimed that they have no intention for making 3d ME). An unenjoyable ME is opinion. I enjoy it, although also see its faults. The big weakness in the game, in my opinion, is the tactical interface, which has become overly complex and too sensitive. However, I have yet to see anyone on the forums come up with a workable solution, or something even close for that matter. Personally, I think the other stuff is getting better, but could do with a boost in sophistication. However, none of it really spoils my enjoyment. I don't understand how player attributes or ratings can be quantifiably 'worse'. They are just numbers. Your last sentence is pure conjecture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevicus Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 maybe some of vocal minority is getting tired with constant promises that this and that is rewritten and fixed when actually things got even worse? many of us were trying to be as constructive as it gets over last couple of years. we don't hate SI, we have been loyal customers for more than a decade and we have every right to be angry when things that should be fixed years ago are not. the biggest problem is that this list is just getting bigger and bigger. ME might be perfectly functionable but it's also very unenjoyable. if you asked me 3 or 5 years ago i would have expected a lot more from it. but it's still catching the basics. nothing has been changed (training, tactical interface, AI tactics) or much improved (ME, media interaction, team talkes...) some things got even worse imo (transfers, player attributes, player ratings,) and most of new features don't add much to the game or worse. only 3d is something that could prove good in long term - and that was introduced becouse of the competition (even last year SI claimed that they have no intention for making 3d ME, if my memory serves me well). IIRC SI said they wouldnt make a 3d ME until it was possible? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 An unenjoyable ME is opinion. I enjoy it, although also see its faults. The big weakness in the game, in my opinion, is the tactical interface, which has become overly complex and too sensitive. However, I have yet to see anyone on the forums come up with a workable solution, or something even close for that matter. Personally, I think the other stuff is getting better, but could do with a boost in sophistication. However, none of it really spoils my enjoyment. I don't understand how player attributes or ratings can be quantifiably 'worse'. They are just numbers. Your last sentence is pure conjecture. it might be conjecture but that's what we were told. it doesn't metter anyway. an unenjoyable ME is opinion, of course it's an opinion, i'm not saying threre's no person who could enjoy it. but i'm defently not one of them as it doesn't represent football match decently enough for me. i really expected that in year 2009. i hope we could discuss tactical interface at some other time. i liked your idea you mentioned a couple of months ago. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitja Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 IIRC SI said they wouldnt make a 3d ME until it was possible? i remeber they said it's in a long term plan or something like that. but it's not important. as i said it's a good thing (eventhough i don't like it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DalyBhoy Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Are you kidding . Hard means a challenge = a good thing . Football Manager should not turn into LMA Manager . It is a football manager simulation , everything isnt always going to go your way ! stop complaining . Threads like this bashing the game for no reason are a joke . SI are doing a great job , long may it continue ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMagpies Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 An unenjoyable ME is opinion. I enjoy it, although also see its faults. The big weakness in the game, in my opinion, is the tactical interface, which has become overly complex and too sensitive. However, I have yet to see anyone on the forums come up with a workable solution, or something even close for that matter. Tbh thats because the majority of the posters are NOT trained/experienced game designers, some may have coding experience but thats not the same thing. I've mentioned ideas in other threads, but as I'm not a trained games designer i can only provide a basic outline of a train of thought, I can't go into technical details on how to setup the Tactics Screen to include Direct AND Indirect Freekicks because i DONT KNOW what those technical details are. All i have is the basic football knowledge, there are direct & indirect freekicks in real life but in FM we just have 'the' freekick. For me it gives the impression of a half-finished product or that SI don't actually care about realism, and so i keep mentioning it because i DO care. In 07 future clauses remained in your finances screen forever if that player was released for free by the club that purchased him, has it been fixed yet for either 08 or 09 ? If not, why not ? I want FM to be a good game, I want to enjoy playing it, but I haven't purchased 09 yet as I feel it won't provide the enjoyment i want. sorry if this appears antagonistic, but it isn't a personal attack on you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebu Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The spanish league does appear to have some rather serious problems, that personally I am a bit dissapointed over havent been fixed in the previous patches. Sometimes it does seem as if SI caters a wee bit too much to all the UKers here (some podcasts ranting on about english teams for instance aside from these ****ing-up the spanish league bug(s)). Anyhow, this is not what the op is about, he spoke of the game being too hard, try to stay on topic (I know I just failed at it too by replying :facepalm:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Tbh thats because the majority of the posters are NOT trained/experienced game designers, some may have coding experience but thats not the same thing.I've mentioned ideas in other threads, but as I'm not a trained games designer i can only provide a basic outline of a train of thought, I can't go into technical details on how to setup the Tactics Screen to include Direct AND Indirect Freekicks because i DONT KNOW what those technical details are. All i have is the basic football knowledge, there are direct & indirect freekicks in real life but in FM we just have 'the' freekick. I agree that it isn't our job the solve the issue, but it makes me laugh when someone criticises the sliders for being too complex and offers a solution of more sliders and check boxes. The only issue is the translation of the sliders. Wakers constant comment of 'just ask Ferguson which combination of sliders he uses' holds no water, as the sliders are supposed to translate real world instructions into the ME. We don't have the technology to just be able to tell the players what to do and a mass of real language sentences from which to choose would be horribly confusing. Thus far, sliders have been the best/only option. However, I think they have probably outlived their usefulness. Once you understand how to translate the sliders, everything fits together pretty well. I cracked the translation in FM07 and have hardly needed to change my basic assumptions since. I have become more sophisticated and have more playing options/styles than I had then, but the core assumptions have remained the same. That doesn't make me an FM God. I don't get promotions every season. I don't win everything in sight. However, I do overachieve. And I enjoy the game, because I understand why I have won/lost. What future development needs to do is make that level of understanding par for the course and accessible to all FMers. And it needs to do it in the game, not via a 18,000 word document. Not an easy task by any means. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike7077 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 wwfan's post above is pretty much spot on. However, I'd be interested to know what he has to say on how we legislate for players who constantly hit the ball against each other, goalkeepers who stop with the ball at their feet and wait for the opposition to take it off him, and players who move away from the ball or randomly slow down to allow the opposition to take possession. I definitely agree with what wwfan says. I just get frustrated about things such as the above, where it doesn't matter how good your slider combination is, you're still screwed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwfan Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 wwfan's post above is pretty much spot on. However, I'd be interested to know what he has to say on how we legislate for players who constantly hit the ball against each other, goalkeepers who stop with the ball at their feet and wait for the opposition to take it off him, and players who move away from the ball or randomly slow down to allow the opposition to take possession.I definitely agree with what wwfan says. I just get frustrated about things such as the above, where it doesn't matter how good your slider combination is, you're still screwed. They are bugs, but happen to both the AI and user and generally even out over the course of a season. I am as frustrated as the next man when I lose a match I am dominating because of a long punt down field my defenders decide to ignore, but it happens often enough in my advantage to take it on the chin. If you can translate the sliders and regularly pick the right tactic for the situation, you will generally do well, despite the ME flaws. I'd argue that in a 46 match league season, I perhaps win and lose 3 I shouldn't have because of ME bugs. Hopefully, that can be reduced to zero for 9.3. The other 40 games have deserved results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike7077 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Can't really argue with that response. I have to admit to benefitting plenty of times from match engine bugs. Naturally, they only frustrate when they happen to you. I guess the key in all that is "taking it on the chin". That's the thing I often struggle to do. In that moment where my defender moves out of the way and gives their striker a free run at goal, all the times it's happened in my favour seems to be forgotten. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupal Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The virtues and vices of the ME are really at the heart of many of the complaints which people have with the current edition of FM. Other things, like the repetitive nature of the team talks and press conferences, are irritants but can be lived with. The ME, however, is really the heart of the game and if that's unsatisfactory, then the game is too. I am sure that the move to 3D was a great step forward. I am also sure that, because of this, weaknesses in the ME are much more obvious now. They have been listed by a fair number of people and there's no point in repeating that list here. The difficulty is not so much that the game doesn't look particularly convincing (neither does a display of 2D dots) as that what goes on on that pitch doesn't relate particularly well to the tactical input that one has made. I have won games when setting my team to defend deep and counter attack where they spent the vast majority of the time camped in the opponents' half. That doesn't make sense. Players often don't perform according to their stats, whether it's an opposition ST with a finishing stat of 17 missing simple tap-ins, an opposition MC with a long shot rating of 2 smashing in two 35 yarders in one match against me, or my DC with speed and acceleration ratings of 16 being beaten in a straight chase by an opposing FC with a speed rating of 12..... After half time, in some magical fashion, the AI manager's team talk has got through to my players so that they perform like complete idiots, misplacing the simplest passes and running away from the ball instead of tackling.... The ME needs to be sorted. With great respect to wwfan, it's very difficult to make sensible tactical decisions given the current state of things. You set an initial tactic based on....what exactly? The scout report? Not very reliable! An assessment of the relative strength of the teams? Possibly, but you often find that that doesn't really work either. Anyway, you come up with a tactic and sometimes it works OK. Often, however, it needs tweaking and, unless the ME is improved, which way you tweak, how much and so on becomes something of a lottery. That's where the game falls down IMO. The sliders are awkward to use. Seriously, it really shouldn't be necessary to study a 50 page manual produced online to begin to get your head round them, how one relates to another and so on. I remember the old Alex Ferguson Player Manager game for Playstation. That game had many faults but it was possible, very simply, to set runs, individual positions, passing direction and length preferences for individual players, etc, etc on a single pitch like FM's formation/position screen. If SI could concentrate on getting the ME up to standard, providing a simpler tactical interface for 2010, perhaps toning down the influence of random events, press conferences and team talks and fixing some of the bugs which people have mentioned which have been around for several versions now, I'm sure that a lot of the grumbles which people have would disappear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwityke Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 They are bugs, but happen to both the AI and user and generally even out over the course of a season. I am as frustrated as the next man when I lose a match I am dominating because of a long punt down field my defenders decide to ignore, but it happens often enough in my advantage to take it on the chin. If you can translate the sliders and regularly pick the right tactic for the situation, you will generally do well, despite the ME flaws. I'd argue that in a 46 match league season, I perhaps win and lose 3 I shouldn't have because of ME bugs. Hopefully, that can be reduced to zero for 9.3. The other 40 games have deserved results. I would actually say these kind of ME bugs happen more in my favour than against me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupal Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I would actually say these kind of ME bugs happen more in my favour than against me. It doesn't really matter all that much which way they work, though, does it? I'm not trying to make a cheap point here - there is a tendency amongst some people (I don't mean you kiwityke) to say that those of us who aren't happy with various aspects of the game are moaning because we can't win or are bad players. I've had that sort of reaction from people and it's not altogether fair. Look at some of the comments which people have made on this thread about the OP. I managed two promotions with Stenhousemuir in an earlier save I was doing and am so far (early season admittedly) unbeaten in Italy Serie C2 with a pretty poor side, so I'm not that hopeless. Lots of other people have had the same sort of thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCCG Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 The game is very hard, but it's just how the game has evolved. The developers made a conscious decision that the game had to grow with the customers and give them a bigger challenge as each iteration is released. Some would see it as a challenge set by a friendly tutor who knows that it's about time to step up and move on to harder things and others would see it as the mean teacher that gives everybody hard work and takes away their playtime. Either way, if you like going to school then you gotta do the work. Sometimes I hate it and I take many, many breaks (I bought the game on release and I have only played till 2016 so far in my first game) but when I do take it out I always have the time of my life. At least for a while. Kinda like with my girlfriend. I feel that beginners and casual players are given a rough ride at the beginning and the tutorial does little to help them ease in, and that is something that must be addressed in future incarnations of the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
baker.simon Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 To the OP, are you sure your not confusing lack of available playing time with the game being too hard? Im a similar age and when i started playing (at about the same age as you) i had loads of time on my hands, as most teenagers do, so as a result used to be able to cream every game. Now im older with responsibilties and commitments (job, home, family, girlfriend - wife on the 14th FEB, etc), i dont get the time that i used to get to play it. On the flip side of that, and a stark difference to you, is that im finding it relatively easy to find success. Im no tactical genius or football knowledge mogul and it took me a while, but i got there! Just give one more try before you quit, one more last, decent, real try, you can do it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOriginalJez Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 To the OP, are you sure your not confusing lack of available playing time with the game being too hard? Im a similar age and when i started playing (at about the same age as you) i had loads of time on my hands, as most teenagers do, so as a result used to be able to cream every game. Now im older with responsibilties and commitments (job, home, family, girlfriend - wife on the 14th FEB, etc), i dont get the time that i used to get to play it. On the flip side of that, and a stark difference to you, is that im finding it relatively easy to find success. Im no tactical genius or football knowledge mogul and it took me a while, but i got there! Just give one more try before you quit, one more last, decent, real try, you can do it! Agree with ya there. There was a time I could enjoy a season in a couple of days - I've been playing my current game since 9.1 and I'm only in my third season, all in all I've completed 3 and a half. I think it's a different game these days but personally I don't think it's changed in a bad way. The enjoyment used to be in winning the leagues and the cups, now it's getting one over on that idiot who insulted you last time you played and taking out your rivals with a demolition. Every match is a challenge and let's face it, that's real life. When it stops being a challenge you're going wrong somewhere! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Riccardo Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I have played it 15+ years and love every version, this is the best so far with 3d, hopefully they make fans in the stadiums next version Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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