Why the forums are so negative and what can be done to avoid that next year

[Glyn]

In short - Finishing the game before you release it = less negative forums.

If only that were true. But it isn't. It was just as negative when 'better' versions of the game were released.

The internet is full of people who aren't happy unless they're moaning about something. And that's just the ones who actually know what they're talking about. How many negative posts do you thuink we get that are written by people who patently do not know what they're talking about? You've only got to look at the swathe of posts by people who think they know about how testing is done, or how games are programmed, or those by the SI/SEGA's 'true motives' conspiracy theorists (see cynet's post above, for example) to realise that that wouldn't change regardless of the quality of the game.

[Wakers]

If only that were true. But it isn't. It was just as negative when 'better' versions of the game were released.

The internet is full of people who aren't happy unless they're moaning about something. And that's just the ones who actually know what they're talking about. How many negative posts do you thuink we get that are written by people who patently do not know what they're talking about? You've only got to look at the swathe of posts by people who think they know about how testing is done, or how games are programmed, or those by the SI/SEGA's 'true motives' conspiracy theorists (see cynet's post above, for example) to realise that that wouldn't change regardless of the quality of the game.

One way of looking at this, of course, is that no FM game has been released that's been considered by a lot of people as suitable for starting career games until the second patch has been released.

Could the pattern of negativity on the forums following each release not be a sign that the game is consistently not being released as well made as possible?

Of course, there are always though who rant about things without knowing what on earth they're talking about. There are those that become superman just because they feel somewhat safe sat in a comfy chair in the own home and can therefore spew out personal attack after personal attack without threat, and yes, these people don't do anyone any favours.

[Les Girondins]

If only that were true. But it isn't. It was just as negative when 'better' versions of the game were released.

The internet is full of people who aren't happy unless they're moaning about something. And that's just the ones who actually know what they're talking about. How many negative posts do you thuink we get that are written by people who patently do not know what they're talking about? You've only got to look at the swathe of posts by people who think they know about how testing is done, or how games are programmed, or those by the SI/SEGA's 'true motives' conspiracy theorists (see cynet's post above, for example) to realise that that wouldn't change regardless of the quality of the game.

I don't think Si helps itself when it comes to nailing down the Chinese Whisperers. I've speculated before about aspects of the game and the company, knowing I am almost certainly wrong, wondering if someone is going to come and actually set the record straight, tell me I am wrong and explain why/how it happened, or turned out the way it did.

But they don't ..

Maybe if there was a more proactive attitude toward addressing customer concerns and responding to level criticism with actual sincere statement it wouldn't be neccessary for Si themselves to worry about misinformation and hyperbole - we'd police ourselves. The message would be repeated and explained by other forum users; Si would find advocates and positive attitudes among the userbase applied towards other users.

If SEGA/Si doesn't actually get involved in discussions very often, doesn't defend its decisions or actually respond to criticisms about bugs or the game (I am not interesting in corporate rankling, activation etc) and explain how things work, and why (speed, transfers, loaning players or any of the half dozen persistently posted up complaints and moans) it becomes self effacing disatisfaction.

It really would go a long way toward restoring the faith of the intelligent majority and encourage them to actually tackle the haters instead of falling in with them ..

Which is why I wondered about the role of mods and the vaccum of actual company representation. Moderating a forum requires no actual corporate loyalty, you just do it to help maintain order and hopefully impart some rational perspective in debate. What would really help is if there were actual SI spokesmen on the forums, doing the job of addressing the issues and concerns customers raise directly and towing some sort of consistent company line.

Just a thought ..

[CrashOverride]

I havent got involved in this debate up until now as I havent been around the forums for long enough to comment on the atmosphere against previous years and will openely admit I only signed up initially because I was having issues deciphering my code on release day. I have played CM/FM for many years and this is the first Ive had the luxury of being able to patch the game (I simply didnt know they existed before 09).

Any software thats released is going to be buggy, as its a simple fact you canot pick up every bug in testing even if you have the worlds biggest test team and all the time in the world to test it. The fact that there was a release day patch just shows that SI had continued to test the game after sending it off the publisher/distributors and realised there were going to problems on release day.

Its my opinion that had they known that all the activations problems were going to hit so hard they probably wouldnt have released on a thursday night (yes I know that wasnt meant to be till friday but that wasnt SI's fault that disks were sent out early). They would probably have had more staff availble to deal with the massive flood of disgruntled noob's inlcuding me. I was lucky that Muzchap was able to help and was the first to test the code deciphering link before it was posted onto here. Had this not happend I probably would have continued posting in the manner in which I started. But my issue was fixed and I was able to enjoy the game even with the 9.1 "issues".

The reasons the forums are so negative IMO is that negativity breads negativity, people will sign up and read a few of the threads and go "hey this is place to come and moan at SI and even ask for people to get sacked" and they will jump on the band wagon and join in the negative atmosphere that seems to hovering like a storm cloud over us at the moment.

I wish I had a majic solution to this issue but I dont. Maybe we need a whats good about 09 thread stuck up at the top so its one of the first things people read and therefore they might come onto the board with a more positive frame of mind. Plus people may only sign up if they have a problem so the happy customers out there dont feel the need to sign up and say how they are enjoying the game. Most of these points have been mentioned by other people I know but I thought the opions of a relative newbie might be added in as well

[Hamselv]

Regarding the hype, then as long as money rules the world (which might be a long time) then you won't find a company that isn't going to create as much hype as possible about their products. Selling a product with the slogan "it isn't very good, but we did our best" just won't work.

If you give a company the choice between these two scenarios:

1. Hyping your product like crazy, selling 1 million items, and afterwards listen to 200,000 customers whine
   
2. Lower the expectations for your product, selling 200,000 items, and afterwards only listen to 10,000 customers whine
   

Then everyone would choose scenario 1.

At the end of the day, as long as you keep giving them your money, they just aren't going to care that much about how much you complain afterwards. That isn't a stab at neither SI nor SEGA – it's just how business works. If you really don't like, then you don't buy. If you already bought, then you return. That's what gets you some attention.

About the tone on these forums, then some of the problems are probably just from kids getting a new toy and being unable to get it to work the way they want (for some working right = them becoming instantly successful). Since I've only played the demo of FM09, I can't say how many of the issues mentioned around here are actual huge problems, but from experience some things probably are as bad as they are being made to sound around here, and some are probably exaggerated quite a bit.

Since I see some SEGA folks writing here, then I will say though that yelling "tinfoil hat wearers" and "conspiracy theorists" at anyone who dares question your statements, doesn't really help with setting a positive tone around here either. Some of the statements you made about the DRM were ... let's just call it inaccurate or perhaps say that they were at the very least self contradictory ("libel" seems to be the favorite word for a lot of people around here, so I'm sure saying "lies" would just bring them out again ) Because of those inaccuracies it can't be a huge surprise that some might question some of your statements from now on

[chopper99]

People really do have short memories.

FM08 came in for endless criticism on the forums for many reasons, I lost count of the number of people that claimed that with the second patch FM07's match engine was perfect and they wished '08 just had that match engine. There were complaints galore during FM07 as well, mainly people complaining that the AI cheated them in some way or used 'superkeepers' (two things that continued throughout '08 tbh)

And now you get endless people saying that FM08 was the pinnicle of the series and FM09 is worse.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that it's the same every year, all that changes is the number of people that have access to the forums. It will be exactly the same when FM10 is released, everyone will be claiming that '09 was brilliant and that they're tempted to go back and play that.

The opening poster has some good points, and there are certainly problems with this years game (the only difference this year is that with 3D more problems are spotted more easily), but the forum has reacted no differently this year than in any other from what I can see.

[Butros]

No matter what people think of the game you do agree to follow some certain rules when you sign up for the forum. Calling people names very seldom helps moving the game forward and focus instead moves to telling people straight and another thread is messed up.

If being constructive when pointing out flaws more people would recognize the same flaw and there would be less threads with the same content. Also providing the requested information helps rather than just saying "this or that doesn't work".

I don't work at/for SI nor do I think the game is perfect but for me it's playable and has given me countless hours of joy since the early 90's. I agree it doesn't look good when the same problems pop up in version after version or totally obvious issues somehow have passed the testers but I work with software myself and can tell you it happens to more programs/games than Football Manager.

Still we pay money for the game so a certain level of quality can be expected but so far no version has been unplayable (to me) and 2 or 3 patches per release is more than I'm used to get to games I buy so to me that's also a sign that SI/SEGA cares and tries to address issues that pop up after release.

I'm not trying to defend anybody here but when people use a mature way of highlighting problems I find that they get better help from fellow players, mods and testers.

Just keep it civil folks and this will be a happier place to visit!

[Bluejacket]

What's in a name?

Championship manager 4 was never patched. SI simply released enhancement packs for it. However customers know a patch when they see one, and the enhancement packs were called patches on future releases.

The past few games have had lot of bugs at the release. Current version has been patched twice, and several serious bugs are still left. I think the naming policy may need revising again. The released version was obviously beta, so why not call it so? I think next year we should be buying Football Manager 2010 Beta. Then the third patch comes in February, including the transfers from January's transfer window. After that the game is officially released. Everybody would be happy and live in peace.

[Les Girondins]

What's in a name?

After that the game is officially released. Everybody would be happy and live in peace.

Is it 4am already?! I need to make a phone call ..

[djwilko6]

I'm not trying to defend anybody here but when people use a mature way of highlighting problems I find that they get better help from fellow players, mods and testers.

Just keep it civil folks and this will be a happier place to visit!

The truest words said in this thread.

[dave byrd]

This thread was never going to take off...

The points are well made SCIAG but no company is going to stop hyping its product because it leads to annoyed customers, especially when all they do is rant on a forum instead of actually returning it.

Couldn't agree more. It is only a very tiny percentage (5% if i remember correctly) of people that own the game that actually post here.

[SCIAG]

People really do have short memories.

FM08 came in for endless criticism on the forums for many reasons, I lost count of the number of people that claimed that with the second patch FM07's match engine was perfect and they wished '08 just had that match engine. There were complaints galore during FM07 as well, mainly people complaining that the AI cheated them in some way or used 'superkeepers' (two things that continued throughout '08 tbh)

And now you get endless people saying that FM08 was the pinnicle of the series and FM09 is worse.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that it's the same every year, all that changes is the number of people that have access to the forums. It will be exactly the same when FM10 is released, everyone will be claiming that '09 was brilliant and that they're tempted to go back and play that.

The opening poster has some good points, and there are certainly problems with this years game (the only difference this year is that with 3D more problems are spotted more easily), but the forum has reacted no differently this year than in any other from what I can see.

I know full well that this happens every year. It's about breaking the cycle. I was one of the people who complained about 08 and wished it had kept 07's ME (I still do...), though I tried to do it constructively. I was around for much of the complaints about 07 and I remember "superkeepers". I found that if I came up against a goalkeeper who looked like he'd save everything (a certain Russian in particular), then by the end of the match, we'd put at least two past him, so I thought the complaints were pretty unfounded fwiw.

Like I said, it's about trying to break the cycle and stop constructive posts getting lost in the mire of negativity that always follows immediately post-demo release and doesn't subside for a week or two after the full release.

SI won't lose sales as the fan base is so loyal, and tbh the game is only really advertised through word of mouth. We've had an advert that iirc only showed once on an obscure TV channel that didn't mention the product. There's occaisional advertising in FourFourTwo and such (or maybe that was CM). The majority of the hype takes place on the boards, and most forum users will buy the game if they enjoy the demo (some will even if they don't ).

[Codename47]

Hype has very little to do with it in my opinion. Most of the 'moaners' are fans of the series who have played the game for years and are simply disappointed in the product this year. It's not rocket science - people complain when they are not satisfied and sadly this year a lot of people feel let down for a variety of reasons. At the end of the day the vast majority of moaners are only interested in seeing a better game, even if some do express their opinions badly, so I don't think its sensible to even ask what to do about the moaners - the question should be how to improve the product.

Absolutely beautifully put. I couldn't have worded it any better myself.

[Smac]

Just wanted to add a couple examples of threads going 'South'.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=88543

"Please either help the person as in post #5 or respond constructively"

inserted in color in posts #2, 3, 4, and 6, with the original text wiped out and possibly PMs sent to the agitators to let them know they've been 'moderated'. This rewards good behavior (post #5) and makes it clear what is expected. As things stand (locked, agreement with the position of the snappy posts, ignoring the helpful post) the thread is rewarding the wrong behavior.

Then let the thread stay open so that the OP can either continue his question or thank post #5 for the link.

This may sound picayune, but the point is to moderate assertively and not defensively. The hostility in the forums is a response to defensiveness (insecurity), inconsistency, and anxiety. This isn't to say that its the moderator's 'fault', or SI's 'fault'. Certainly there are plenty of people who will agitate no matter what.

Obviously this is only my opinion, but I really don't see how anyone can wonder why the forums are hostile if they do not first address the typical responses to hostility.

Another locked thread on the front page: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=88455

See if you see what I mean from the first example.

A few people trying to wind each other up or shut each other down in here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=88019

A more difficult situation, certainly. I didn't particularly help, except in trying to calm the OP down a bit.

A 'good' thread, where people help each other: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=88526

[SiN8]

Although FM is the best football simulation out there, I feel that SI takes advantage of their loyal fanbase by using them as beta testers. Every version has a list of new features that is intended to excite the users. Yet, I feel that these new features are never complete. Most of them are buggy or ill thought-out. I'll list a few examples.

FM09:

3D match engine - Hardware incompatibilities.

FM08:

Confidence - Broken, you could be fired to doing getting promoted too fast. Signing youth player upset the fans. This latter problem still exists in 9.2.

Fm07:

Scout report - Star system varies on your own player's CA. However, you cannot scout your own players; thus making the scout reports rather useless. I couldn't believe that SI didn't think about this beforehand.

There are many other features, but most of them are useless and feel tacked on. For example, does anyone even use calendar, notebook, bookmarks or advisers?

Overall, each new version feels rushed with either broken or unwanted features. The problems that exist in old versions are not always fixed. So we end up with a game that never fixed the old bugs and introduced a bunch of new bugs.

As others point out, most of the fans expect a patch and won't even start playing a proper game beforehand. That's pretty sad and some of posts on here is a reflection of that.

[This field intentionally l]

The tone on these forums is much improved compare to when FM08 was released (escaped more like). I put this down to two things 1) FM09 isn't too bad, and FM08 was a POS 2) someone has put a muzzle on Ackter.

[Brendan]

Hahaha, yeah someone has tied Ackter up hopefully.

And the mood is made to look worse by the odd one or two flamers and people who destroy the forum with about 30 threads about the same thing.

[Micado]

Hahaha, yeah someone has tied Ackter up hopefully.

Oh he is still around, mostly in the OTF.

For me, personally, I don't feel that these forums are more negative then last year or the year before. You always will have people mentioning negative stuff on here and people who are flaming everybody, those thing can't be removed. For me I experinece these forums as positive, never got flamed etc.

I think it all comes down to reading the forum rules and normal human behaviour.

[Smac]

This looks like another example we could use: If you want to reduce hostility on the forums, the above posts (#66 and 67) shouldn't be tolerated. For example.

"Humiliating someone publicly isn't o.k.. This is called flaming and isn't constructive. If you have a problem with someone personally and think they've broken the forum rules PM a moderator."

Now cut and paste that into the posts, PM the infractors and carry on. Apologies for making an example of your posts, but its on-topic in this case.

[djwilko6]

A few people trying to wind each other up or shut each other down in here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=88019

A more difficult situation, certainly. I didn't particularly help, except in trying to calm the OP down a bit.

The same people, saying the same thing, over and over and over again doesnt help.

Not only that, but they seem to think anyone who doesnt agree that the game is broken/released unfinished/major flawed/has game breaking bugs are wrong and/or are fanboys and I'm surprised one person in particular hasn't picked up my infractions and/or a ban for some things they have said.

Yes constructive criticism is what SI want, and what the community needs, constant moaning, and derailing of threads that have little to do with what they are spouting shouldn't be.

Sometimes valid threads need to be closed for the above reasons, its not exactly fair on people that are trying to DISCUSS and LISTEN to other people, but if it means I dont have to listen to the same drivel from the same wakers every thread I decide to look in, then I'm all for it.

[Wakers]

The same people, saying the same thing, over and over and over again doesnt help.

Not only that, but they seem to think anyone who doesnt agree that the game is broken/released unfinished/major flawed/has game breaking bugs are wrong and/or are fanboys and I'm surprised one person in particular hasn't picked up my infractions and/or a ban for some things they have said.

Yes constructive criticism is what SI want, and what the community needs, constant moaning, and derailing of threads that have little to do with what they are spouting shouldn't be.

Sometimes valid threads need to be closed for the above reasons, its not exactly fair on people that are trying to DISCUSS and LISTEN to other people, but if it means I dont have to listen to the same drivel from the same wakers every thread I decide to look in, then I'm all for it.

Bit hypocritical in your post there, are you not?

The thing is, when i try and discuss something, i get attacked by someone who comes in with some stock response that has nothing to do with the issue being discussed (much like you do) and the same people then accuse me of saying the same thing in every thread. Well yes, if you all come at me with some rubbish excuse for something thats wrong with the game, I will come up with the same reason why its rubbish.

Believe it or not, I'm glad that some people enjoy the game. It's just wrong that it's viewed as not acceptable for some of us to think that FM09 is not playable long term due to the myriad of bugs that have been left unfixed.

Also, kudos for providing another example of flaming. Well done.

[djwilko6]

Bit hypocritical in your post there, are you not?

The thing is, when i try and discuss something, i get attacked by someone who comes in with some stock response that has nothing to do with the issue being discussed (much like you do) and the same people then accuse me of saying the same thing in every thread. Well yes, if you all come at me with some rubbish excuse for something thats wrong with the game, I will come up with the same reason why its rubbish.

Believe it or not, I'm glad that some people enjoy the game. It's just wrong that it's viewed as not acceptable for some of us to think that FM09 is not playable long term due to the myriad of bugs that have been left unfixed.

Also, kudos for providing another example of flaming. Well done.

Where have I flamed you or anyone in particular?

My post was not aimed at one person, but an observation of some people on these forums.

Don't take my previous post personally, I don't carry arguements from one thread into another, life is too short, and internet discussions too fickle to worry about things like that.

[This field intentionally l]

Thanks, another example! If you want to reduce hostility on the forums, the above posts (#66 and 67) shouldn't be tolerated. For example.

"Humiliating someone publicly isn't o.k.. This is called flaming and isn't constructive. If you have a problem with someone personally and think they've broken the forum rules PM a moderator."

Now cut and paste that into the posts, PM the infractors and carry on. Apologies for making an example of your posts, but its on-topic in this case.

Sorry mate but its intolerant self-righteous people like you that drag these forums down.

[VonBlade]

Sorry mate but its intolerant self-righteous people like you that drag these forums down.

Wow. Could you be any more ridiculous. Rules state you shouldn't flame. You clearly flamed someone. It was pointed out to you, so you flamed them too.

[BlackTiger]

Wow. Could you be any more ridiculous. Rules state you shouldn't flame. You clearly flamed someone. It was pointed out to you, so you flamed them too.

Consistency - 20

[Smac]

Sorry mate but its intolerant self-righteous people like you that drag these forums down.

I'm sorry if I've offended you. Its my honest opinion that tolerating flaming isn't going to help a forum be 'less hostile', which is the topic of this thread.

If you could give me some advice on how to be more tolerant and less self-righteous I'd really appreciate it.

[GillsMan]

Sorry mate but its intolerant self-righteous people like you that drag these forums down.

I suggest you cut that attitude out.

[LAHoward]

I followed the links in the post above by smac. What i found in one of those links posted by smac is pretty much where i'm at currently. I don't have any ill feelings towards SI as i've enjoyed their product for some time now. I do however hope they take an alternative route in future releases.

Here's the post by smac. It explains my reasoning for going back 2 versions to get (in my opinion) a decent sunday fm fix.

"I'd go a step further (this is just opinion and a bit off topic, nonetheless...... ) I'd suggest that if the game isn't going to be realistic in a certain area, it should 'make up for it' by being fun. Fun in this case by being predictable and rewarding. If pace doesn't matter for defenders anymore, then both the realism and the fun is in a dire state. A lot of the game is about the attributes: Which are important, how they develop, how to find players with the attributes you need, etc.. So if the attributes start to seem irrelevant ....... hence why this is a more important topic overall than just wondering about getting more realism out of the simulation".

[small Mac]

Thanks, another example! If you want to reduce hostility on the forums, the above posts (#66 and 67) shouldn't be tolerated. For example.

"Humiliating someone publicly isn't o.k.. This is called flaming and isn't constructive. If you have a problem with someone personally and think they've broken the forum rules PM a moderator."

Now cut and paste that into the posts, PM the infractors and carry on. Apologies for making an example of your posts, but its on-topic in this case.

Seriously? Of course flaming should not be allowed but stamping down on a couple light-hearted comments is way OTT imo. Just going to cause more agro, as demonstrated above.

[Smac]

small Mac, yes, seriously.

I would ask if you like to find your name mentioned in threads you have not participated in, and used as an example of bad behavior? Whether or not it is light-hearted mockery or sadistic mockery is irrelevant. Its unnecessary flaming and baiting. Its great if the person in question can 'take it', but there's no reason why they should have to. Simply refrain from flaming or baiting people. At least one person turned the vitriol on someone actually in the thread, which is much better than cowardly flaming someone who isn't even aware of the conversation. Thats progress because then it doesn't have to linger like poison. It also makes it easier for a moderator to track what is happening and for any hypocrisy to be self-evident to everyone in the thread.

Rules and discipline do not cause agro small Mac (in my opinion). That is an excuse that perpetuates poor habits of non-responsibility by putting the responsibility for one person's voluntary behavior in the hands of another. If the rules are clear and well-intentioned, and are consistently applied, there is no need to take things personally at all. A calm atmosphere of confidence in the rules and moderators leads to a tolerant atmosphere where mostly people try to help each other, assured that they will be protected if aggressed against or if they themselves make such an error: not just by the official moderators, but by most of the members.

Its only 'stamping down' if it is personal. And I agree with you that if people perceive authority as 'stamping down' then they will act out. This is why moderating has to be clear and consistent and well intentioned and never defensive. A tough gig.

Now, either the SI forums are run the way that the owner-operators want, or they are not. If the 'way things are' is the atmosphere that is wanted, then fine, but then the question of "Why are people hostile" is irrelevant and a bit tongue-in-cheek really, like a political campaign. ("Respect the Refs"). If, on the other hand the forums are under-par and not meeting the expectations of the owner-operators, then something really can be done and the question of "Why are people hostile?" isn't moot at all.

[kyoung1982]

Why don't all of the moaning people just think that they can make the game better!! Just make a football sim yourself! and show us that you can make a better game then SI.

[Butros]

Why don't all of the moaning people just think that they can make the game better!! Just make a football sim yourself! and show us that you can make a better game then SI.

This would apply if FM was a freeware, then we could ask the moaners to go away. But since we do pay for this piece of software I believe that people are entitled to complain about bugs/problems, the thing is to do it in a constructive and respectful way.

[CaptainPlanet]

The biggest amount of negativity on these forums come from people commenting on other peoples posting styles and making personal attacks.

"You're talking rubbish"

"You've got issues"

"You've no idea what you're on about"

and those are some of the nicer ones.

Rather than stay on topic, a lot of threads get de-railed so easily by people making it personal.

The other issue is that a lot of forum users don't know how to post constructive criticism, and in most cases don't want to. They just want to rant and let off steam (no pun intended) because they are annoyed or frustrated.

People also need to search to stop posting duplicate threads, having said that, a header at the top of the forums indicating this would probably be helpful.

Unfortunately it's unlikely to change, new people will continue to sign up to the forums and rant, long standing members who have become disillusioned will vent their frustrations and nobody will accept that their behaviour needs to change because it's an internet forum and annonymity is king.

[feedthegoat]

My two penneth fwiw.

To get a lot of the moaners back onside may I suggest the following:-

1. Lose the DRM. From what I read, it basically ruined the game for many people on release day and also annoyed a lot of folk who had recieved their pre-ordered games earlier than release day.

2. Work on improving what you have got already, rather than adding more features, get the ones already featured correct first and then add more stuff.

3. Keep the FM fans well informed. The DRM wasn't announced until about a week before release, I was very excited about getting it and then SI dropped that bombshell.

4. More beta testing. Don't think this really needs to be brought up as I have noticed that SI are in fact seeking more beta testers. Nice one

5. Most importantly, listen to the fans. They are the ones who quite honestly end up paying your wages, if you don't listen to the fans and what they require from the game, they will go elsewhere and eventually the series will die.

Well, we've just started 2009 and I am still yet to buy FM2009, and I won't. I have made a stand against any companies adopting DRM and that will remain the case until they see sense and move away from it. Somebody from Sega has mentioned that they will release a patch that will remove the DRM in about 12-18 months time, if that's the case I will wait until then before buying the game, but then again I won't be holding my breath on that one.

[VonBlade]

Why don't all of the moaning people just think that they can make the game better!! Just make a football sim yourself! and show us that you can make a better game then SI.

Dear Birds Eye,

I recently purchased a pack of your usually delicious Crispy Chicken. However on this occasion it was full of bones, the batter contained glass and the little meat there was appeared to be beef.

Yours VB.

Dear VB,

Well do it yourself then if you think you can do better. I don't see your name up in lights as a leading provider of poultry-based comestibles. So as you can't do better, shut up and like it.

Yours Birds Eye.

[chopper99]

Dear Birds Eye,

I recently purchased a pack of your usually delicious Crispy Chicken. However on this occasion it was full of bones, the batter contained glass and the little meat there was appeared to be beef.

Yours VB.

Dear VB,

Well do it yourself then if you think you can do better. I don't see your name up in lights as a leading provider of poultry-based comestibles. So as you can't do better, shut up and like it.

Yours Birds Eye.

Love it!

[CaptainPlanet]

You eat birdseye chicken?

Are you poor?

[VonBlade]

You eat birdseye chicken?

Are you poor?

Yes. Very much so in fact.

[djwilko6]

You eat birdseye chicken?

Are you poor?

At least it isn't shop brand chicken.

What do you eat?

[CaptainPlanet]

Harrods own brand.

[Wakers]

Where have I flamed you or anyone in particular?

My post was not aimed at one person, but an observation of some people on these forums.

Don't take my previous post personally, I don't carry arguements from one thread into another, life is too short, and internet discussions too fickle to worry about things like that.

from the same wakers? That made it aimed at me, no?

[chopper99]

from the same wakers? That made it aimed at me, no?

Why not just let it go? That post you quoted was made yesterday so why bring up the same old bickering arguments again when the thread has moved on?

[Matt ex SEGA]

This thread does not need to descend into a "he said, she said" argument. Please drop it.

[djwilko6]

from the same wakers? That made it aimed at me, no?

Nope, just an unfortunate typing error, there should have been an * in there.

Like I said, I don't carry problems around the forum.

Sorry you took offense, I should proff read my posts more.

[Wakers]

Why not just let it go? That post you quoted was made yesterday so why bring up the same old bickering arguments again when the thread has moved on?

well if someone named you personally in a post that you didn't get to see yesterday i'm sure you'd be pretty annoyed about it too. What has the thread moved onto exactly? food?

[Smac]

feedthegoat and Captainplanet have made some good posts on topic. I wasn't around for the initial release and DRM activation issues, but it sounds like that is pretty much over with.

[lucky326]

I remember a similar atmosphere after 08, some members of the community just happen to be quite negative from what i've seen.

[pnefc22]

I agree with you SCIAG as even two months after release, we can still see that the whole first page of the threads are covered in moans and criticism for SI.

Someone mentioned less infractions before you are banned and I totally agree.

[iamjerome]

i'm very disappointed to see official names posting stating that their belief that this year hasn't been too bad, because to me personally (and i am trying to be as objective as possible here), it has been a poor release for the series. perhaps with the next patch, it won't be. but i don't play FM09 anymore. i haven't touched it in a week. there's too many issues. i can't fall in love with it when there's too many unrealistic bouts involved as i could with previous releases.

[LAHoward]

What does that show? The game isn't "broken", "useless" or even "unplayable",

Same goes for FM07 so why spend up to (from what I've heard)$100?

However, isn't it plausible that it's people's expectations which are too high as opposed to the standard being too low?

I believe if someone purchases anything from a reputable company their expectations should be on the high end especially when the previous years upgrade was not up to par with previous titles. So you have 07: (super goalies) 08: (super goals) and 09: (in my opinion worse than the two previous mentioned from a realistic standpoint).

I have no one to blame but myself for the purchase. SI has a demo out and it plays out exactly as the full version does. So they weren't hiding anything (except for the series c bug which i'm sure caught them by surprise) and the reasoning I haven't really "vented" over the release.

I don't know how it is at your house but the economy has taken a dive at mine. I am more aware of my spending habits compared to a few years ago. In a lot of ways it's been a blessing as it's shown me how careless I have been with my money in the past. I will not purchase any pre-releases, I will demo and be very cautious in purchasing anything from the pc gaming ind in general.

Hopefully the boost in testers for next years title will bring back (in my opinion) a long overdue FM upgrade.