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Why the forums are so negative and what can be done to avoid that next year


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They wouldn't get the idea, they would just post more guff complaining about what happened to their original guff. You give people too much credit.

PaulC has announced several times that 9.3 is being worked on, he's even said a few things that have been tweaked in it. Is that enough to warrant a sticky, or does it need to be more official than that?

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They wouldn't get the idea, they would just post more guff complaining about what happened to their original guff. You give people too much credit.

PaulC has announced several times that 9.3 is being worked on, he's even said a few things that have been tweaked in it. Is that enough to warrant a sticky, or does it need to be more official than that?

This is the one thing I don't really get about the patch stuff. No announcement is made (even a really vague one would suffice), but some talk about it in certain threads.

This then often takes on a Chinese whisper effect whereby misinformation is spread and people presume incorrect stuff, which I think is one of the reasons we end up with lots of 'new patch' threads.

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I’d like to see a sticky patch progress thread. It doesn’t need to have any dates set in stone, but it could do with being updated frequently just to let people know what’s happening. It could go something like:

(date) Changes have been made an the patch is going through our internal testing process

(date) The first beta patch has been circulated to beta testers for comments and feedback

(date) Researchers have been asked to submit their final player data

(date) Player data has been incorporated into beta patch and circulated to testers

etc.

9.3 is now well underway and I can’t even see an official thread mentioning it on the first page. I assume it’s going to come out after the January transfer window closes to include a data update but I can’t see anything official letting people know.

Having said that no matter what information SI give you’re always going to have the repeated ‘when is it out?’ threads and just have to learn to accept them. However, what I’d like to see is a standard line of text used when closing these threads which highlights the error of posting but points the user in the right direction, so a reply would go something like:

Dear (username),

Information about the latest patch can be found in the stick thread 9.x which can be found here (link)

If you would like to post any thoughts on this patch please use the patch discussion thread which can be found here (link)

To prevent the forums being clogged with repeated requests, we ask that users use these two threads rather than starting new ones.

This thread will be closed to keep discussion about the future patch in the appropriate place.

Something like that would be much more polite and helpful. FAr better than having a load of users launch in and slate the guy.

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I reckon that the biggest mistake that SI/SEGA are guilty of is releasing the game every year. I would love to see FM released every 2 or 3 years .... then we would benifit from a longer and more intense development period, with more testing, and the chance to try and iron out new and radical features .. bug or glitch free. I wonder of yearly deadlines are hamstringing the developers ... and wonder if they would love a 2 year run at the next FM game.

I buy the game every year btw, and am enjoying FM09 ... this is probably the last year though that I buy FM yearly, and will try and get two or three years out of this one.

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I reckon that the biggest mistake that SI/SEGA are guilty of is releasing the game every year. I would love to see FM released every 2 or 3 years .... then we would benifit from a longer and more intense development period, with more testing, and the chance to try and iron out new and radical features .. bug or glitch free. I wonder of yearly deadlines are hamstringing the developers ... and wonder if they would love a 2 year run at the next FM game.

I buy the game every year btw, and am enjoying FM09 ... this is probably the last year though that I buy FM yearly, and will try and get two or three years out of this one.

TBH its a business needs scenario. The business needs to generate revenue, I don't think they need to release every year in fact I think they'd make a far superior game/product if they did take 18 months or so. But when the sales figures are the same whether you release every 10 months or 18 months, why miss out on all that revenue? Admittedly, after a while the momentum slows and you have to start putting more money into advertising and spin, and ilk like IGA and marketing to shift the copies and maximise the profits. Eventually gimmicks and superficiality abound ..

The reality is: SEGA own SI as far as I understand it? So SI are obliged contractually to release annually. Its good for the books and thats what they do - make money by selling video games. The primary focus of every business is to generate revenue consistently. SI does. Why fix it if it isn't broke?

Now I think most of us agree that if this was absolutely any other brand (excempting possibly Apple) it would have bombed several years ago. But SI has a fanatical user base, most of us have been buying it for literally years and will continue to support the business regardless of how buggy the game is on release day.

I just wish SI would respect that loyalty instead of taking it for granted ..

But I'd still rather have FM as it is, than none at all. That's just me though. :thup:

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The reality is: SEGA own SI as far as I understand it? So SI are obliged contractually to release annually. Its good for the books and thats what they do - make money by selling video games. The primary focus of every business is to generate revenue consistently. SI does. Why fix it if it isn't broke?

FM (and CM before it) was being released annually long before Sega had any involvement, so I really don't think it has anything to do with Sega forcing SI to ruch the game out.

It would be stupid for any company making this type of game to not release it yearly, they would be opening their doors to their competitiors.

And rememeber, many of the issues in the game are found by the people who buy and play the game, simply because there are so many of them. So even if SI did wait to release the game, the community would still find bugs in it. The only difference would be that they would have to wait longer for the game.

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Having said that no matter what information SI give you’re always going to have the repeated ‘when is it out?’ threads and just have to learn to accept them. However, what I’d like to see is a standard line of text used when closing these threads which highlights the error of posting but points the user in the right direction, so a reply would go something like:

Dear (username),

Information about the latest patch can be found in the stick thread 9.x which can be found here (link)

If you would like to post any thoughts on this patch please use the patch discussion thread which can be found here (link)

To prevent the forums being clogged with repeated requests, we ask that users use these two threads rather than starting new ones.

This thread will be closed to keep discussion about the future patch in the appropriate place.

Something like that would be much more polite and helpful. FAr better than having a load of users launch in and slate the guy.

I fully agree with that standard suggestion, and it is polite, I may well adopt something similar myself. Just as an aside, though, almost as tiresome as duplicate threads is the people that post in those duplicate threads that add nothing to the forum. So the last sentence you wrote certainly rang true.

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Rather than delete the "guff" posts, how about edit them to read "I posted a stupid thing and got a warning for it" Then issue a warning. I know its a lot of work for the mods but I reckon people would get the idea pretty quickly that posting drivel was only going to result it one thing happening?

I think this is an excellent idea for a stickied patch thread. If such a thread were started I think it should have a big bold warning at the start stating that any nonsense will not be tolerated in this thread. It could go onto state why (ie, there have many many requests for a stickied patch thread. We've listened to the community and here it is. We will, however not tolerate any nonsense at all in this thread and anyone who does post nonsense will be infracted without warning).

A few examples of the kind of nonsense not tolerated could then be included, and then any guff posted could be replaced with the line suggested by HuwFlet and the offender infracted straight away.

People will then have no reason to complain as the warning will be very clear before they even start typing.

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They certainly would have to wait longer for the game ...... but thats not the only difference ... they would also build up more gratitude for the game, from the fans. Maybe one of the reasons for all the bug-hunting and sniping is the knowledge that the new version is so soon down the road, that their eye and attention is forever on the future of the series, and the holy grail of the perfect version. If the game was released every 2 or 3 years then maybe some of these winers may just get their head down and actually submerge themselves inside the current version ... safe in the knowledge that nothing substantial can be done for years, so get used to it.

I agree with Les Girondins ... 'tis a revenue driven business ... and what I am suggesting is unrealistic in this day and age. A yearly update generates cash every year, so why miss out. ... I just would love to see those making the game given more time.

Again, I must stress that I am enjoying FM09 though .... I have enjoyed FM / CM since the very first one on my Acorn Electron in the eighties ..... I wish some of the complainers could re-play that ... anyone remember Shilton playing up front, and Hateley in goal etc etc .....

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They certainly would have to wait longer for the game ...... but thats not the only difference ... they would also build up more gratitude for the game, from the fans. Maybe one of the reasons for all the bug-hunting and sniping is the knowledge that the new version is so soon down the road, that their eye and attention is forever on the future of the series, and the holy grail of the perfect version. If the game was released every 2 or 3 years then maybe some of these winers may just get their head down and actually submerge themselves inside the current version ... safe in the knowledge that nothing substantial can be done for years, so get used to it.

I have to disagree, they would still be complaining and asking for patches for 16 months insted of the 4 or so months we have now.

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Good to see the thread still going well.

I would also think that FM would be a more superior game if they released it every couple of years, with frequent patches and data updates to keep the game balanced and fresh. The problem is for SI that there income will be nearly halved over the two years and that is not good for any business.

I also think there should be a patch thread that just lets all those moaners post in and that way it will be out of the eye of the other members.

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The only way that SI or Sega could even think about releasing less than once a year would be to more than double the RRP to ensure that they retain their profits! Plus as Les Girondins stated they would be opening up the market for what little competition there is out the currently!

Also the problems that people experience differ and obviously what is a bug to one player isn't to another. For example I have not personally encountered the 'Bojan Bug' as yet however that does not mean that I don't believe others have. I also don't really have an issue with the 3D ME, this is probably because I am not expecting it to be perfect in it's first version and so can accept the limitations of it at present.

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I feel that any version of FM will be far from perfect. It's an impossible thing to accomplish, but what really annoyed me was the hype given by Miles and his YouTube videos in which he over hyped the game beyond belief. I feel the whole marketing side of things was just shambolic.

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I think a lot of the problems people have with this years version of the game is exactly what annoyed jonpaulwild the level of hype. The thing is that any video game company is going to hype up a game to the point where people expect the game to be totally perfect. This happens across all systems PC/Mac or consoles. A case in point against this type of hype was the PS3 game Haze, it was hyped up by all magazines and then bombed cos it was full of bugs.

The bugs question has been known for years over PC gaming whereby companies think it's perfectly okay to release a game full of bugs and then say oh we know about the bugs here's a patch for you. I know SI did this but they listened to all the complaints from those playing the demo and released a patch on release day and have since released another. I'm not saying this is acceptable but it happens with all format of games now with online gaming becoming so prevalent.

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I feel that any version of FM will be far from perfect. It's an impossible thing to accomplish, but what really annoyed me was the hype given by Miles and his YouTube videos in which he over hyped the game beyond belief. I feel the whole marketing side of things was just shambolic.

I don't think you know enough about marketing to comment on whether or not the marketing was shambolic tbh. Do you want Miles to go on YouTube and say "well, this latest FM is alright, but it's not amazing or anything"?

Miles doing his job by promoting the game isn't the reason the forums were negative during release time.

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I feel that any version of FM will be far from perfect. It's an impossible thing to accomplish, but what really annoyed me was the hype given by Miles and his YouTube videos in which he over hyped the game beyond belief. I feel the whole marketing side of things was just shambolic.

To be fair JonPaulWild, I think that view depends on the way you interprète the advertising, videos and marketing. I personally don't think it was to badly over hyped.

In reality what would want Miles et al to say "This years version we've added a couple of updates and stuff, is a bit like a Volvo really, not very exciting but does it's job!"

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At the end of the day i would think FM is in this for the long haul. They have a huge fan base that will probably keep it rolling for the foreseeable future reguardless of marketing success/failures.

Also at the end of the day is that fanbase can fluctuate like a stock graph. Shoddy release maybe a tick to the downside, continous shoddy releases "Houston We Have A Problem". So marketing is for the here and now; consumers have memories.

Mentioned in a post above was there is very little competition in this market. You ever hear of EA Sports? Yeah their FIFA Manager is currently not worth comparing but you think that will ring true in a few years? I'd venture to say SI's rapid 3D release was in large part of EA's graphic progress in their FIFA Mgr title.

For me i have no intentions of leaving SI for EA (CM could be attractive i dont know yet). My wish would be that Sega never got involved with SI in the first place. Reguardless of what say they have in future releases their independance took a hit. With Sega in the mix text sim is no longer as important and graphics is and for me thats a bad thing.

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I reckon that the biggest mistake that SI/SEGA are guilty of is releasing the game every year. I would love to see FM released every 2 or 3 years .... then we would benifit from a longer and more intense development period, with more testing, and the chance to try and iron out new and radical features .. bug or glitch free. I wonder of yearly deadlines are hamstringing the developers ... and wonder if they would love a 2 year run at the next FM game.

I buy the game every year btw, and am enjoying FM09 ... this is probably the last year though that I buy FM yearly, and will try and get two or three years out of this one.

I completly agree with this and was thinking about this when I was playing FM last night and on a buisness note it probably won`t make much sense but from a consumers point of view I think the game would benefit in the long term.

This is what I think, lets say instead of naming FM after every year 07,08,09 and having certain deadlines why not keep it to a version name like Football Manager and underneath the title a certain version number or title, like 07 should have been worked on right through to the begining of 09 having 2+ years to work on a title getting everything perfect and updating data on the usual dates and spend 1-2 years gathering and testing certain new ideas for the release of a new version of FM with totally new ideas like the press conferences, new 3D ME, and tactics and transfer systems and test these to the hilt and have closed and open betas before release on a bigger scale than at the moment rather than diving into the deep end after 1 year when the likes of 08 could quite easily have had another year and a half to 2 years before trying something like 09 and you could have used the money that was used in TV ads and the new deal with steam to pump into the 07,08 version or the new version with all the bells and whistles on eg the new 3D ME, and would have had a belter of a game and would not have had half the moaning and problems with the game than it has this year.

This is just a thought and will never happen even though SI probably would like the idea of more time with a version than they do but as I said money talks and thats what counts as a buisness but surely the end product should be that the customer is satisfied with what they buy and would apreciate the company a lot more than if they feel that they are paying for an open beta having to wait till every Febuary before the game is complete leaving SI and us gamers only 10 months before a new version comes out.

Wow that has to be my longest post and I hope you see what I am trying to say as I probably have not explained it the way I am thinking in my head and I put that down to smoking to much and no not fags.:thup:

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They could make the game bug-free and explain why it doesn't run on my pc although i can run other games (Assassin's creed) smoothly. if i hear bugs there were in the original version and still now (bojan-bug, 2nd competition qualifies direct for CL, bizarre 3D stuff,...) i am happy i still play FM08.

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I agree with CaptainPlanet, lets be honest folks regardless of whether SEGA are involved or not the franchise is a business and therefore is being run to make money. A release outside of every 12 months would not only decrease the amount of profit made year on year but as stated previously open up the market to the competition which at the moment is virtually non-existant. What I would like to see is less 'big new' features and a concerted effort to perfect the ones they have and maybe add one new feature each year! The problem with that is they could then be accused of being left behind by the competition so they can't really win!

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Thing is, just having data updates won't be beneficial because you'll get some people doing the updates for free and they'll lose out on a lot of money. A proper release every 12 months is the only way to go.

Thats a fair point mate, its just trying to find that balance that helps and benefits everyone I suppose.

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"Mama give me your credit card FM is released today". that's the purpose of the yearly release. the older crowd has patience and would rather have a more finished product (i would hope).

I would be gald to spend an extra $10 if the game was a solid upgrade. as it is now i doubt i will be in line for fm10 as i will demo and if history holds true there just isn't enough time to make a proper upgrade in 9 months.

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Whilst I too would have no problem with paying £10 for a data upgrade as has been mentioned before this would quickly become free over the net and so SI would lose money there.

That is without taking into account that in between the release of two full versions (let's use 2 years as an example) then SI would still have the business costs (development, fixed costs, salaries etc etc) to pay and so this would then have to be reflected in the RRP of the second (and then subséquent versions).

It would be an impossible situation for a business to run in so we will have to accept that it will be a yearly release.

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It would be an impossible situation for a business to run in so we will have to accept that it will be a yearly release.

point taken and that may be what leads me to wait for fm12

edit: not knocking your comment daley thats just my feelings on the yearly release.

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Re rants :

I absolutely agree that rants aren't constructive. Totally.

Unfortunately I'll give you a couple of examples of why people rant.

Brilliant thread with a great point, well made and intelligently discussed

General ranty stuff posted in the usual all lower-case sweary style.

One has six replies, one has one hundred and thirty six.

So if you want someone to notice what you have to say should you make a well-reasoned post with some good ideas that's ignored by everyone, or a sweary, ranting, exclam-filled bunch of nonsense that'll have dozens of replies, thousands of views and probably the mods and PaulC turning up to try and sort it all out?

Exactamundo.

It's one thing to get on the moral highground and despair at the dirth of quality posts, quite another to actually encourage those posts and posters.

VB

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A help to this forum would be much stricter moderating, ruling with an iron fist, but I guess that would be damaging in regards to future customers.

In terms of what? Are you talking about more infractions, bigger infractions points, or something else? I don't disagree with the notion that we can be stricter on occasion fwiw. :thup:

And on another note, it's posts like this that wind me up:

Pointless thread imo. No-one will use it.

Absolutely pointless post, achieves absolutely nothing, but making the OP feel a bit worthless. If this is your opinion on a post, it's better to keep quiet and read another thread. If no-one will use the thread, it'll die and fall down the forum naturally. This sort of post really is one of my pet hates.

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In terms of what? Are you talking about more infractions, bigger infractions points, or something else? I don't disagree with the notion that we can be stricter on occasion fwiw. :thup:

And on another note, it's posts like this that wind me up:

Absolutely pointless post, achieves absolutely nothing, but making the OP feel a bit worthless. If this is your opinion on a post, it's better to keep quiet and read another thread. If no-one will use the thread, it'll die and fall down the forum naturally. This sort of post really is one of my pet hates.

And that thread is still going. It is kind of frustrating seeing the amount of people that post for the +1 on the post count. Just think if that is happening, then the person should be sent back to 0 posts.

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Well I'm a bastard so I'd give warnings then infractions for someone who creates topics which has already been created before a few times and can be searched very easily.

Anyone who creates a repetitive topic AND is pointless, like 'this game sucks/I won loads of cups go me/when's the patch?' get an immediate infraction.

Anyone who creates a topic which is nonsense and then creates another one cos it was locked just to troll gets immediately suspended for a week, and is immediately banned if, when they come back, they do it again within a certain amount of time (months).

Those are a few examples off of my head, but I guess generally to give less chances to people. Like earlier there was a guy who posted 7 or so "it's your tactics" posts in a row, 'for a laugh' I presume, and from what I saw just got a few yellow cards for it.

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Anyone who creates a repetitive topic AND is pointless, like 'this game sucks/I won loads of cups go me/when's the patch?' get an immediate infraction.

This is GQ. Without those posts there's nothing left.

I'm all for ruling with a fist of iron when it comes to abuse, swearing, disruptive posting. This forum could definitely take its own rules more seriously and enforce them with an "up against the wall" policy. I've lost count of the amount of posts that are akin to "ZOMG!!! IM A FKICNG PIRATE!!! SUCK IT!!!!" and yet my report of them does nothing.

However, to stop people rejoicing in their success or explaining their feelings is draconian and I disagree wholeheartedly with the suggestion.

VB

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You called...

Swearing isn't the problem, for those who go down to games will know that.

ahem.... i went to forest away this year and they have near enough a zero policy on swearing and i saw many fans ejected from the ground because of it, but thats got nothing to do with people unnecessarily swearing on a forum which minors use.

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ahem.... i went to forest away this year and they have near enough a zero policy on swearing and i saw many fans ejected from the ground because of it, but thats got nothing to do with people unnecessarily swearing on a forum which minors use.

Minors go to football matches, infact there are more at football matches than there are on here. It is the pointless bickering and arguing which is the problem here. It can send good threads spiralling into death, just because people see the need to boost their post count. MatthewGoodfield did it, and look what the users here thought of him.

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Minors go to football matches, infact there are more at football matches than there are on here. It is the pointless bickering and arguing which is the problem here. It can send good threads spiralling into death, just because people see the need to boost their post count. MatthewGoodfield did it, and look what the users here thought of him.

Says the man arguing about if the amount of swearing on a forum with a zero tolerance policy for swearing is more or less than that found at a football match.

:D

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threads spiralling into death, just because people see the need to boost their post count.

No names as Neji (TBMITW, not) said, but i complete agree there should be a limit on posts a day to stop some users (the ones with over a 1000 posts since december :confused:) hijacking threads.

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Says the man arguing about if the amount of swearing on a forum with a zero tolerance policy for swearing is more or less than that found at a football match.

:D

I don't think swearing should be tolerated, but stopping the bickering should be the priority as it is ruining the experience

Dicko: HuwFlet has had 1000 posts since October ish but he is one of the best members on here at the moment. If someone is boosting, then reset their count, simple.

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What's confusing?

If we can all post 10 posts a day, then by 9pm all the regulars will have filled their quota, thusly leaving only the people who never post.

Ding, we have a winner!

You see what I mean though, some people post more than others. I would have been stopped from posting about 6 hours ago if there were any limits on posting.

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No names as Neji (TBMITW, not) said, but i complete agree there should be a limit on posts a day to stop some users (the ones with over a 1000 posts since december :confused:) hijacking threads.

I don't agree with that, I have often posted 75+ posts a day in the GPTG, pretty much all helping people, some in the Off Topic Thread.

Putting a limit would help to stop spam, but would also limit the amount of help that people can make.

EDIT: Thinking again, I think 'often' is the wrong word. But I have posted that number sometimes.

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