Here's why Gegenpress is OP

[stopazricky]

(As per @Jack Joyce suggestion, I'll be cautious and I'll avoid using the term "proof" regarding EBFM work)

Evidence Based Football Manager just released a video that seems to suggest that higher Tempo, Mentality and (most of all) Trigger Press does not consume more Condition, which might be the reason why Gegenpress is viable at all levels of the football pyramid and is always the optimal choice, therefore being OP. I embedded the Youtube video down below (it's already timestamped, but watch from the beginning if you want to know more about his work methodology).

While EBFM's work might not be perfect, this is confirmation of something that anyone playing FM has been suspecting all along, so I'm not surprised.

There's really only two doubts in my mind:
1) Does SI know that the Match Engine works like this?
2) If so, is it intended?

While it can be argued that some relatively important aspects haven't been considered for the test (mainly LoE), these conclusions are just completely in line with most players' gut feeling about it.

I respect SI's work very much, FM is possibly one of the most complex games out there. I just want to understand whether or not they agree that this is an aspect of the ME worth improving (because if they don't agree, they'll obviously never work on it).
 

 

[Brasilia88]

It's a guessing game with so many variables. Not to mention the code needed to make it work. 

Therefore, it's heavily based on RNG and if that favors Gegenpress, it means that the code has more 'true' cases than 'negative' cases resulting in a goal being scored.

If you really want to know, they'd have to give you the coding. However, imagining they'd even consider it, it would make this game extremely meta, which it already is in certain ways. 

I hate losing, but knowing how to fix it is one thing, but simply never getting in the situation is a whole other thing. 

 

[chrisnlnz]

XD at this point, SI just hire him and shut him up. He has been exposing and harming your game for some time now.

[herne79]

I stopped watching after 3 mins, it's yet more nonsense and does the community more harm than good.  If he's actually got a shred of integrity he'd give all of his data to SI to check over before releasing his videos - SI would even welcome it.  But then SI debunking his "claims" wouldn't make for very good content on his channel would it?

He talks a good talk and makes thing appear valid but unfortunately he simply doesn't understand the complexities.  Case in point - the game is based on realism.  And yet his "testing" uses teams of made up and unrealistic players being asked to do unrealistic things.  That's not "testing", that's making stuff up.  Just because we change something in an editor doesn't make it valid.

The game can certainly get better - SI themselves know this - but the only thing this kind of BS video does is to feed doubts in people's minds.  And that's not helpful.

A message to "Evidence" Based Football Manager:- give your data to SI before releasing your videos for them to review.  If SI do actually find something beneficial (and in my experience they'd be open and honest about it) then your videos would carry a lot more weight and would help us all.  But until you start doing that, please stop.

[Ngoc]

it's like in MMO the DPS build does more damage but should be weaker

 

Gegenpress should break players much more but when players break often people whine instead of changing tactics and insist that the game is broken because of too many injuries instead of understanding that Gegenpress is supposed to break people as it gives an advantage in scoring

 

but honestly, people on here is really the worst user of logic I have ever seen they call "easy" a game with no difficulty (you make your own difficulty) they call gegenpress op but refuse any backlash of the tactic and whine when the player break because they use gegenpress i all matches non stop

there is no point in any of these post

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Ngoc

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, chrisnlnz said:

He has been exposing and harming your game for some time now.

 

39 minutes ago, herne79 said:

but the only thing this kind of BS video does is to feed doubts in people's minds.  And that's not helpful.

Well, quite. 

[phnompenhandy]

You can hate on EBFM all you like, but do you really deny that Gegenpress is overpowered? It's too obvious to pretend otherwise, whether you agree with EBFM or not.  Case in point - I'm a Lower League Manager trying to keep things 'realistic'. Therefore, with young part-time players, I don't employ gegenpressing tactics because I don't think they could manage it for 90 mins over a season. But I see other LLMs DO use it as an exploit and go through seasons unbeaten with 95% wins. Part-time players should be dropping dead after half a dozen games using GP. They should be on their knees after 60 mins. Of course it's ridiculously overpowered and a tactical exploit.

[sthptngomad76]

Agreed. SI are surely aware of this- they have acknowledged in previous editions of attempting to make gegenpress a “thing of the past” however that clearly hasn’t happened yet.

Which makes me think they either know about it and are happy to just leave it there, or, more likely, doing something about it will unbalance a very complex game, which potentially (and at least hopefully) can be fixed in the new engine. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by sthptngomad76

[Daveincid]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb herne79:

The game can certainly get better - SI themselves know this - but the only thing this kind of BS video does is to feed doubts in people's minds.  And that's not helpful.

this 100%

[herne79]

7 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

do you really deny that Gegenpress is overpowered?

Gegenpress is no more “overpowered” than any well thought through tactical system.  It’s just easier to set up and maintain than most others.

7 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Part-time players should be dropping dead after half a dozen games using GP. They should be on their knees after 60 mins. Of course it's ridiculously overpowered and a tactical exploit.

No.  I’m afraid that is where this argument falls down, because any tactical system is relative to the level at which you play.  We’ve been saying that for years in the tactics forum.  Playing gegenpress (to continue the example) at Nonleague Utd is not the same thing as playing gegenpress at Eliteclub FC.  This is also why we can play tiki-taka at low levels, or pretty much any tactical style we choose - it’s all relative.  Here’s a recent quote from SI themselves:

Quote

In terms of playing styles though, there's nothing stopping you from playing any style really based on level of play. The football you're playing is relative and that's important to remember, for example Notts County in the National League last season played a very Pep-esque possession system that received a lot of plaudits, and Barrow did before them at the same level as well. Now, that doesn't mean they're as good as Man City! But relative to the opposition they're playing, they were extremely capable of keeping the ball and building attacks from back-to-front.

And that is just one of the reasons why “E”BFM’s videos are fundamentally flawed and actually damages the community.  He’s not doing it on purpose, but in his ignorance he’s giving out misleading information which fans the flames of doubt.

7 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

You can hate on EBFM all you like

I don’t hate on him.  But what I dislike is unverified information being given out as fact.  All the guy (and others who do similar “tests”) needs to do is give their data to SI for them check and review before releasing their videos.  Why do they never do that?  Imagine how powerful their videos would be if SI did confirm their findings.  Of course on the flip side if SI deem their data to be flawed and findings erroneous….

Phnom, I know you (and others) have found some of his videos helpful, especially in relation to things such as training schedules and other strategies you can employ to help your club management.  And that’s great.  But videos which get into “evidence” of things apparently wrong or flawed in the actual game mechanics must be treated with scepticism unless SI themselves have verified findings.

Edited December 10, 2023 by herne79

[DarJ]

8 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Part-time players should be dropping dead after half a dozen games using GP

I think it was 2 years or 3 years ago when they did that but not to this extreme and this form was filled with people complaining that their players couldn't play 3 games in a row because they were tired.

We see the same with injuries where every year people complain there's too many injuries when in reality it's nowhere near to the amount of injuries IRL.

Also in defence of SI they did introduce sprint capacity which if I remember correctly it was every player knowing how much they can sprint before needing to recover and Jack Joyce did mention that I see the good there are 2 condition bars where I've functions like stamina bars in some games where if you run or do something physically demanding that bar will run out quickly and you have to rest a bit before you can do something else which is physically demanding so maybe if you out all that together it evens out. I have no idea 

[Rashidi]

Of course LLM players can outrun and outplay most other teams. Good LLM players have very deep squads. That in itself counteracts any issue created with player fatigue. You just swap out players and go with another bunch and keep plowing through the leagues.

For each gegen pressing story I hear, I can plonk other stories about players who are playing counter attacking football with low blocks and traps. One of my mates is playing a simple 433DM with a low block minimal pressing with outside traps and he just invites teams to attack him while scoring on the counter.

Gegen pressing is strong, of that I have no doubt, however other systems are just as good. Just because the majority of players can’t pull them off doesn’t mean they don’t exist. If gegen pressing is so successful, how come I haven’t seen a single person post evidence of an entire season with no goals conceded? If it is so strong and broken then you should be able to take Oldham’s default squad and stomp all over Leicester. Then that is an exploit or a serious flaw in the game.

When I found an exploit in the game, at least I had the decency to send in my save and my tactic to SI and ask them to verify my findings. Thats what someone who wants the game to improve does, not cry bloody wolf.
 

His testing approach is a fundamental experimental fallacy. You cannot claim that your results are true when the experiment itself does not operate within realistic parameters.

All that does is feed into the insecurity of players who aren’t good at the game. His experiments have been debunked time and time again “live on stream”, but hey people want to believe, what they want to believe.
 

When people said counter attacking tactics don’t work, i proved otherwise. When they said you can’t have high possession with high mentalities I proved live on stream one can get 70% on very attacking mentality. People like EBFM don’t know enough about the game to run experiments accurately. Hey but people want to believe what they want to believe.

 I doubt SI or anyone who actually knows how to play the game is even going to bother with another flawed experiment by EBFM again. Hes just another boy who thought he saw a wolf. At the end of the day, if people want to walk off a cliff and pretend they can walk on air, let em even those who want to follow him.  Do I dislike him? Of course not. 

[enigmatic]

Ironically, it's because the press isn't as aggressive and effective as it can be. 

The equivalent graphs that show the trigger press "much more often" has barely any impact on "distance covered"...

[Golob]

EBFM, hope you continue with your videos. I find them very insightful. And please do not listen to people who try to shut you up and are afraid of doubts in peoples’ minds, because this is how the freedom of opinion and speech is killed. I prefer to get as much info as possible and form my opinion myself. Keep up your work!

[Siven]

I'd rather have EBFM's data than just having to rely on SI's vague in game descriptions tbh.

While i do take it all with a grain of salt, i also know that SI has a lot of "fans" on this forum who think they can do no wrong, which is also no good for the health of the game.

[dannyo666]

14 hours ago, stopazricky said:

(As per @Jack Joyce suggestion, I'll be cautious and I'll avoid using the term "proof" regarding EBFM work)

Evidence Based Football Manager just released a video that seems to suggest that higher Tempo, Mentality and (most of all) Trigger Press does not consume more Condition, which might be the reason why Gegenpress is viable at all levels of the football pyramid and is always the optimal choice, therefore being OP. I embedded the Youtube video down below (it's already timestamped, but watch from the beginning if you want to know more about his work methodology).

While EBFM's work might not be perfect, this is confirmation of something that anyone playing FM has been suspecting all along, so I'm not surprised.

There's really only two doubts in my mind:
1) Does SI know that the Match Engine works like this?
2) If so, is it intended?

While it can be argued that some relatively important aspects haven't been considered for the test (mainly LoE), these conclusions are just completely in line with most players' gut feeling about it.

I respect SI's work very much, FM is possibly one of the most complex games out there. I just want to understand whether or not they agree that this is an aspect of the ME worth improving (because if they don't agree, they'll obviously never work on it).
 

 

Davincid realism mod is making  gegenpressing so much less OP im my new save if thats any help to you,i am only a few months in mind

[phnompenhandy]

4 minutes ago, dannyo666 said:

Davincid realism mod is making  gegenpressing so much less OP im my new save if thats any help to you,i am only a few months in mind

Oh, please keep us posted on how your save evolves. I've added his mods to my editor data folder for my next save, but that might be a while away.

[dannyo666]

1 minute ago, phnompenhandy said:

Oh, please keep us posted on how your save evolves. I've added his mods to my editor data folder for my next save, but that might be a while away.

Absolutly will,no problem....im actually enjoying the game now-again im only a couple months in...

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, dannyo666 said:

Davincid realism mod is making  gegenpressing so much less OP im my new save if thats any help to you,i am only a few months in mind

There's nothing in his pack that would cause gegenpressing to be 'less OP'.  The ONLY thing that could have any effect is his injury mod, as that raises injury numbers more in line with real life, but whilst you MAY get more injuries playing that system, there's nothing that would make it a less effective tactic. His mods don't alter the match engine in any way. 

[phnompenhandy]

7 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

There's nothing in his pack that would cause gegenpressing to be 'less OP'.  The ONLY thing that could have any effect is his injury mod, as that raises injury numbers more in line with real life, but whilst you MAY get more injuries playing that system, there's nothing that would make it a less effective tactic. His mods don't alter the match engine in any way. 

I'm assuming injuries are more sensitive to low condition.

[priority76]

1 hour ago, Siven said:

I'd rather have EBFM's data than just having to rely on SI's vague in game descriptions tbh.

Not me.  While I have watched some of his videos in the past, I think I would rather not know.  Besides, reading through this thread, quite a few people who have a far better understanding of the game than me seem to think his methodology is balls and has no relevance to the way someone actually plays the game.

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I'm assuming injuries are more sensitive to low condition.

That would then have to rely on gegenpress actually reducing condition more in line with how it maybe should. I'm just speculating, mind. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

7 minutes ago, priority76 said:

 his methodology is balls 

Should be the thread title IMO. 

[Daveincid]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Dagenham_Dave:

There's nothing in his pack that would cause gegenpressing to be 'less OP'. 

Interesting

[bartex55]

14 hours ago, herne79 said:

I stopped watching after 3 mins, it's yet more nonsense and does the community more harm than good.  If he's actually got a shred of integrity he'd give all of his data to SI to check over before releasing his videos - SI would even welcome it.  But then SI debunking his "claims" wouldn't make for very good content on his channel would it?

He talks a good talk and makes thing appear valid but unfortunately he simply doesn't understand the complexities.  Case in point - the game is based on realism.  And yet his "testing" uses teams of made up and unrealistic players being asked to do unrealistic things.  That's not "testing", that's making stuff up.  Just because we change something in an editor doesn't make it valid.

The game can certainly get better - SI themselves know this - but the only thing this kind of BS video does is to feed doubts in people's minds.  And that's not helpful.

A message to "Evidence" Based Football Manager:- give your data to SI before releasing your videos for them to review.  If SI do actually find something beneficial (and in my experience they'd be open and honest about it) then your videos would carry a lot more weight and would help us all.  But until you start doing that, please stop.

Did we watch the same video? Oh never mind, you stopped watching after 3 minutes and you are the one accusing others of good talking and making things up lol
What is so unrealistic about the players and the things he asks them to do? If he used real teams and real players, you would criticize his work as based on RNG and chaos.
His findings and claims in this video make sense and for the most part even put SI devs in a good light. Stamina, work rate, sharpness, etc. all have logical effects on player fitness and behavior. The only aspect where the logic falls short is tactics.
Gegenpressing should be OP, but it should also be double-edged. You shouldn't be able to make gegenpressing work with any players you have at your disposal. At the moment it works as plug&play.
Personally, I think gegenpressing should not require mainly physicality, but attributes such as teamwork, positioning, anticipation and tactical familiarity.

[Dagenham_Dave]

31 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

Interesting

You'll know better than me of course, but I'm just going by the list of changes your mod advertises. 

[dannyo666]

1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

There's nothing in his pack that would cause gegenpressing to be 'less OP'.  The ONLY thing that could have any effect is his injury mod, as that raises injury numbers more in line with real life, but whilst you MAY get more injuries playing that system, there's nothing that would make it a less effective tactic. His mods don't alter the match engine in any way. 

6 of one half dozen of another way of putting it.Yeah players getting tired much more easily leading to do injuries so if gegenpressing is your jam-you have to rotate...and as a result gegenpressing is not as OP whilst you are playing live and ingame....i presume there are other factors like player attributes etc at play also which are in the game code which on SI would know

Edited December 10, 2023 by dannyo666

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Dagenham_Dave:

You'll know better than me of course, but I'm just going by the list of changes your mod advertises. 

It's a question of interpretation. Does my mod impact the tactic itself? No. Does it impact the factors which are required to use a very intensive tactic in a very effective way? Yes it does. 
So for my logic, this lowers the effectivity of tactics like Gegenpress

[dannyo666]

Just now, Daveincid said:

It's a question of interpretation. Does my mod impact the tactic itself? No. Does it impact the factors which are required to use a very intensive tactic in a very effective way? Yes it does. 
So for my logic, this lowers the effectivity of tactics like Gegenpress

Absulutely and this is very apparent when playing

[Dagenham_Dave]

11 minutes ago, dannyo666 said:

6 of one half dozen of another way of putting it.Yeah players getting tired much more easily leading to do injuries so if gegenpressing is your jam-you have to rotate...and as a result gegenpressing is not as OP whilst you are playing live and ingame....i presume there are other factors like player attributes etc at play also which are in the game code which on SI would know

See, my issue with this is that SI said a couple of years back they were effectively nerfing this tactic precisely down to players getting more tired using it, but this still doesn't seem to be happening in the base game. If it's as 'easy' (and that's no disrespect to @Daveincid intended) for one person to singlehandedly change the effectiveness of this tactic with a mod, then why hasn't the company who produces the game been able to manage this? 

[bartex55]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

If gegen pressing is so successful, how come I haven’t seen a single person post evidence of an entire season with no goals conceded? If it is so strong and broken then you should be able to take Oldham’s default squad and stomp all over Leicester.

Oh, come on. That's just absurd thing to say. It's like claiming that AI has no problems with squad management currently just because I only managed to loan Bukayo Saka from Arsenal instead of getting him completely for free...

[jcafcwbb]

It is not guaranteed that playing Gengenpress will make your players more tired than other defensive systems. If you dominate possession - I am talking over 60% then there will be plenty of opportunities to rest. If you play out from the back and are maintaining possession then you are not high pressing then. I would wager some high pressers use less energy than those who sit back and defend deep.

Also, in IRL, some clubs are better at dealing with the high press than others. Man City are happy dealing with it using a long ball to Haaland if they cannot play their way through and Brighton encourage it as a tactic. On the other hand Man Utd cannot deal with the high press, look at the Bournemouth game yesterday. 

The game could ensure that high-pressers with low possession would expend more energy than low/mid blockers or high possession teams. Also some teams can handle the high press better so you should get punished for using the high press against them.

 

[Dotsworthy]

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

Gegenpress is no more “overpowered” than any well thought through tactical system.  It’s just easier to set up and maintain than most others.

Does this not, by extension, make it overpowered?

Leaving EBFM aside, the prevailing opinion on here is that you can pretty much plug gegenpress in, without making any changes to the players you have, and have few issues.

In real life there are countless successful teams but also teams that have fallen apart because their pressing doesn't work (Jesse Marsh's Leeds and Bournmouths early form this season).

[Ngoc]

I agree you can make other tactic as successful as gegenpress but not plug and play. Not without modifying them and retouching them 

the advantage of gegenpress is that is stronger than other unless you heavily tweak the other so for average player that don’t mess with tactic gegenpress is the only one out of the box extremely effective 

if you deny it you probably never played tactics without heavily modifying them and that’s probably the case for a lot of pro-player but for novice is definitely OP and the drawbacks are too minimal 

[stopazricky]

None of those that heavily criticized EBFM's methodology and tests bothered to explain what's actually wrong with his experimental setup, though.

[herne79]

25 minutes ago, stopazricky said:

None of those that heavily criticized EBFM's methodology and tests bothered to explain what's actually wrong with his experimental setup, though.

Except we did.

21 hours ago, herne79 said:

the game is based on realism.  And yet his "testing" uses teams of made up and unrealistic players being asked to do unrealistic things.  That's not "testing", that's making stuff up.  Just because we change something in an editor doesn't make it valid.

9 hours ago, Rashidi said:

His testing approach is a fundamental experimental fallacy. You cannot claim that your results are true when the experiment itself does not operate within realistic parameters.

If that still isn’t enough, find the part of the video where he demonstrates how his own unrealistic inputs do not impact the results generated by a system based on realism.

And if you still want more, how does he account for natural player performance differences between matches, which impact player behaviour?  Even if you replay the same match over and over, let alone from match to match, the same player can behave very differently due to a whole host of issues such as (and not limited to) complacency; consistency; morale; team talks; Touchline shouts; opposition players; the weather; altitude; pre-match build up; training; receiving (or not) a hard tackle at the beginning to put him off his game; cohesion; substitutions; whether it’s a competitive match or a friendly; and so on.  There is so much which goes into the ME calculations it’s mind blowing.  As a former Tactics mod I was exposed to only a small amount of that.  Rashidi much more.  EBFM, unless he’s an ex-SI programmer - none.

I’m sorry stopazricky but you are a prime example of how these “tests” are damaging to the community.  You’ve seen something which you consider to be an issue.  You then find a video which appears to validate your frustrations, ergo SI apparently don’t know what they’re doing but this video guy does.  It just breeds mistrust in SI and is classic confirmation bias.  SI are not perfect by any means and there is certainly room for improvement (SI themselves say that) but these videos do more harm than good.

For example, from your OP:

23 hours ago, stopazricky said:

Does SI know that the Match Engine works like this?

SI are the only people who know exactly how the ME works.   Not me, not rashidi and certainly not EBFM.  And yet this video, which appears to confirm your fears, has got you to the point of writing this.  That’s why I say he’s doing more harm than good - you now believe a guy on YouTube rather than the people who actually make the game.

I’d love it if this guy gave his data to SI for them to check and validate before releasing his videos.  SI are always open to that.  But he doesn’t and you have to ask yourself why.

[sthptngomad76]

6 hours ago, Daveincid said:

It's a question of interpretation. Does my mod impact the tactic itself? No. Does it impact the factors which are required to use a very intensive tactic in a very effective way? Yes it does. 
So for my logic, this lowers the effectivity of tactics like Gegenpress

Very interested in your mod Daveincd, great work. Have you got any data which compares use of high intensity tactics in “vanilla” game versus that your mods? For example, on injury rates?

[DP]

6 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

See, my issue with this is that SI said a couple of years back they were effectively nerfing this tactic precisely down to players getting more tired using it, but this still doesn't seem to be happening in the base game. If it's as 'easy' (and that's no disrespect to @Daveincid intended) for one person to singlehandedly change the effectiveness of this tactic with a mod, then why hasn't the company who produces the game been able to manage this? 

They definitely know about it but they also want people to win and - most importantly - ensure more people have a shot at those Conference to Europe FM stories. Keeping it as it is means it’s easier for people to do and players winning more means playing the game more, which is what they want. 

Some people want a ‘set and forget’ tactic and this is what gegenpress allows, for the most part. 

Edited December 10, 2023 by DP

[Daveincid]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb sthptngomad76:

Very interested in your mod Daveincd, great work. Have you got any data which compares use of high intensity tactics in “vanilla” game versus that your mods? For example, on injury rates?

I did more extensive tests last year but there is no benefit for me to spend massive time on evaluation for something which works fine for me for years  However, I did posted results as part of the Gegenpress-discussion in the General-Feedback-thread:

https://community.sigames.com/forums/topic/579205-football-manager-2024-official-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=14242670

 

[Matej]

12 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Of course LLM players can outrun and outplay most other teams. Good LLM players have very deep squads. That in itself counteracts any issue created with player fatigue. You just swap out players and go with another bunch and keep plowing through the leagues.

For each gegen pressing story I hear, I can plonk other stories about players who are playing counter attacking football with low blocks and traps. One of my mates is playing a simple 433DM with a low block minimal pressing with outside traps and he just invites teams to attack him while scoring on the counter.

Gegen pressing is strong, of that I have no doubt, however other systems are just as good. Just because the majority of players can’t pull them off doesn’t mean they don’t exist. If gegen pressing is so successful, how come I haven’t seen a single person post evidence of an entire season with no goals conceded? If it is so strong and broken then you should be able to take Oldham’s default squad and stomp all over Leicester. Then that is an exploit or a serious flaw in the game.

When I found an exploit in the game, at least I had the decency to send in my save and my tactic to SI and ask them to verify my findings. Thats what someone who wants the game to improve does, not cry bloody wolf.
 

His testing approach is a fundamental experimental fallacy. You cannot claim that your results are true when the experiment itself does not operate within realistic parameters.

All that does is feed into the insecurity of players who aren’t good at the game. His experiments have been debunked time and time again “live on stream”, but hey people want to believe, what they want to believe.
 

When people said counter attacking tactics don’t work, i proved otherwise. When they said you can’t have high possession with high mentalities I proved live on stream one can get 70% on very attacking mentality. People like EBFM don’t know enough about the game to run experiments accurately. Hey but people want to believe what they want to believe.

 I doubt SI or anyone who actually knows how to play the game is even going to bother with another flawed experiment by EBFM again. Hes just another boy who thought he saw a wolf. At the end of the day, if people want to walk off a cliff and pretend they can walk on air, let em even those who want to follow him.  Do I dislike him? Of course not. 

Rashidi, what do you think of FM24 AI? Do you have games where AI controlled team beats you with lots of chances? Do you feel the power of for example Man City, Liverpool etc. when they are controlled by AI? And you are lets say relegation club? 

Because i dont. 

Ty. 

[xOGxTerror]

I am really really surprised by some of the comments in this thread. Whether what he says in his video or not is completely accurate, for some people to put other people down for even trying to test this stuff and figure out how parts of the game work is laughable. If people have a better method to test this - you'd think they would suggest it rather than saying this one is "balls" and not putting forward an alternative.

EBFM has released some good videos in the past which has revealed how a few of the less explained systems in FM work. And he has explained it better than the game does - and I think if the game explained some of these systems better, there would not be a need for the work that EBFM does.

But the reaction of some people replying to this is hilarious. 

On 09/12/2023 at 18:30, herne79 said:

I stopped watching after 3 mins, it's yet more nonsense and does the community more harm than good.  If he's actually got a shred of integrity he'd give all of his data to SI to check over before releasing his videos - SI would even welcome it.  But then SI debunking his "claims" wouldn't make for very good content on his channel would it?

He is releasing videos trying to figure out how some parts of the game relate to other parts... specifically how does OPC relate to different attributes and tactical setup. Something that is not DIRECTLY explained by FM. Why does he need to release these findings to SI? He isn't even saying anything is BROKEN! He is just saying this is how different systems work and effect each other in FM from my testing. He also lays out his testing and his saves for you to see and test yourself... If SI care so much they have access to the save files in the description of the video!

On 09/12/2023 at 18:30, herne79 said:

He talks a good talk and makes thing appear valid but unfortunately he simply doesn't understand the complexities.  Case in point - the game is based on realism.  And yet his "testing" uses teams of made up and unrealistic players being asked to do unrealistic things.  That's not "testing", that's making stuff up.  Just because we change something in an editor doesn't make it valid.

You claimed above to watch the video for all of 3 minutes. How can you be so sure his testing methods are so wrong? He uses "test" teams so he has a control group... and changes the attributes and other variables in relation to the control group. And tests it 100 times each. That is how you prove a hypothesis... 

Also notice randomly there is a very very strong pushback here against EBFM mostly only from a few people who already have a pretty cozy relationship with SI... It would seem to me like they do not like people out right testing their systems methodically and trying to explain how some aspects work that they would rather keep mysterious... 

It's a game, let people test it and put forth those findings how they want. But to say people "don't have a shred of integrity" for testing a hypothesis and releasing a video explaining their findings is a bit much. I personally really like what EBFM has done with his videos. I don't claim to think they are all 100% accurate, but I do appreciate someone at least TRYING to understand how some of the lesser explained systems in this game work. Even if SI doesn't. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by xOGxTerror

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, xOGxTerror said:

Also notice randomly there is a very very strong pushback here against EBFM mostly only from a few people who already have a pretty cozy relationship with SI... It would seem to me like they do not like people out right testing their systems methodically and trying to explain how some aspects work that they would rather keep mysterious... 

If are implying that this cozy relationship is to protect SI, that is your opinion. As always people are free to believe what they want. That controlled group experiment won't work, but you seem to believe that is the best way to test his hypothesis? In a made up world that doesn't even come close to the actual FM world, where things like morale, happiness, team talks, squad selections, managers preferred formations all play a part. That factors like match blend, training and other stuff also make an impact? There have been many experiments and simulations run by people here on the forums, some of these experiments have led to changes by SI to the game. Lyssien ran a training experiment that SI used to improve training, that too led to further experiments on the impact of personalities on development. I ran a simulation for 5 seasons, explained the methodology to SI and that led to a change in training. Davencid ran simulations which led to SI making small changes as well.  I ran a simulation to prove that a role was overpowered and it needed to be dialed down and backed it up with a lot of proof, SI reviewed it and made changes to the role. Your implication that we are all a cozy family is off base. There have of course been heated discussions between us and SI too, but at least we are constructive. What these videos do is insult the good work that others have done, and encourage a myopic point of view. I am not here to defend SI, but stop people from insulting others who run good experiments that lead to positive change.Are aggressive tactics OP? They can be, but so can other systems. There are factors that lead to these systems being stronger, and its not the tactical system itself, but something else.  Does the game need improvement, Yes, it does. Yeah but here is the kicker....if you are running an experiment that doesnt' even come close to the actual gameworld, where you artificially change parameters that don't even exist in people's saves then how does any developer know whats the fundamental issue? Is it match blend, hang on he zeroed all the attributes, now we won't know. Is it unhappiness or morale, damn he zeroed those too now its purely the tactic. How does that even help SI? It does help the content creators views on youtube. If he was serious he like many other chaps who have done experiments before he would have done the responsible thing, engage and not sensationalize. Hey but those are the times we live in right. Sensationalize first then rationalize?

Plenty of experiments have been done, and SI actually takes these into consideration. They do make changes when the experiments and simulations are realistic.  and like we said before if he wanted to engage and find out if his methodology needed improvement, he could have. SI is always open to this, they have helped others who run experiments improve theirs.  SI will probably not even wade into these waters again, cos they have checked his previous experiments only to suggest that his assumptions and parameters are wrong.

[Ngoc]

That controlled group work for a controlled group and only prove that in absolute if all is even there are tactics that allow more goal obviously in real scenarios stuff are different and mechanics join up in different way that may swing the example and even give opposite result of a controlled balanced environment

that is a fact and he proved it. It does remove a lot of complexity and barebone the mechanics to abstract basic ideas but it’s still valuable data even if is not how the game usually works because the game is much more complex with many more variable at play 

so not everybody that play gegenpress feel is op but a large majority feel it makes they game easier and that honestly reflect in his simplified test because is true with the wrong team and wrong player gegenpress still can lose a lot but in general it won’t because of things are somewhat balanced and that how usually player tend to play trying they best to have the best team player gegenpress will give them an extra advantage if they know what they are doing 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Ngoc

[Andrew Marines]

21 ore fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

His testing approach is a fundamental experimental fallacy. You cannot claim that your results are true when the experiment itself does not operate within realistic parameters.

I agree with everything you said about other tactical styles. You can play literally anything. If you're not that bad you'll make it work.

This is really wrong tho. When you wanna test something on science field you gotta isolate everthing that could change the final result.

The final result is obv the sum of a lot of factors(really simplified and not that correct Superposition principle. Obv it's not that easy to explain and there could be inaccuracies to what i'm saying but please just try to understand).

If you wanna understand how a single factor works you gotta "shut off" all the others. Obviously the other factors still exist and will change how the game simulates but still that does not mean the test itself is wrong.

It's the best you can do without having more advanced ways to "talk" to the game.

If you tried with all the realistic parameters you wouldn't know what you're actually finding out. Is the player not tiring out cause of the game or because the morale, the training, his attributes are helping?

You gotta start at the basics and then understand if there's something you can do to help achieve what you're trying to achieve

Edited December 11, 2023 by Andrew Marines

[Rashidi]

@Andrew MarinesI agree a control is needed in any experiment. I too set a control base for my experiments in FM. There are also a lot of variables that go into match blend which is the predominant driver for results in a game. How would one ascertain which variables are at play then if you are not testing the variables themselves against the control?  The match engine takes a lot of factors into play and one needs to establish how these variables impact any controlled experiment. That is my point.  And by the way the approach he has taken isn’t the best by any stretch. If he wants help he can approach SI, if he doesn’t then his approach will always meet criticism for not being rigorous enough.

[Andrew Marines]

16 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

How would one ascertain which variables are at play then if you are not testing the variables themselves against the control?

That's why he's trying to always use the same ones.

I haven't watched the video yet(but i watched all others). he probably used a control tactic with default pressing or something common and watched how physical factors change, using different tactical istruction.

Is it perfect? Absolutely not, the match engine is not something linear. Nobody expects that tho. He doesn't have a way to get more data or see the code behind(obv).

other factors will change a bit the result but, cause he's always using the same ones and doing a lot of tests,  we can round and understand if what we're getting is caused by the test being "corrupted" or cause in fact it is what we're trying  to explain.

The setup used is probably the best one and the quantity of tests reduces a lot the chance of rng playing a big factor.

Repeating myself, is it perfect? nop.

Is it good enough? Probably.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Andrew Marines

[Rashidi]

I understand where you are coming from, just frustrates me when someone consumes a lot of time doing experiments like this and doesn’t wade in for help. No skin off my back.

[Andrew Marines]

2 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

I understand where you are coming from, just frustrates me when someone consumes a lot of time doing experiments like this and doesn’t wade in for help. No skin off my back.

I really hope with Unity we'll have the possibility to use mods and create tools to effectively test those things but i really don't think it'll be the case.

in the meanwhile, don't know how you would ask SI for help on those things. Are you just gonna open a thread here or write a Direct message to the staff or ...?

[avenger22]

I mean to deny that high pressing and much more often trigger press, high tempo, lots of tackling are not meta is basically complete ignorance.
There are thousands of tests and i have seen it since ages, should it be like this ? absolutely YES because it reflects real life football, the problem i have and many is that bad players with non gegenpress traits seem to do better in that style versus other styles that is the problem not the fact that high press is op and meta cause it is in real life just that you cannot do it with Lutton Town to the extent of being so superior to other styles and teams and basically a cheat code from get go should be much more harsh in injuries and fatigue or simply players fail and make bad pressing decisions and play better in less intensity that's it.

Edited December 11, 2023 by avenger22

[herne79]

5 hours ago, xOGxTerror said:

I am really really surprised by some of the comments in this thread. Whether what he says in his video or not is completely accurate, for some people to put other people down for even trying to test this stuff and figure out how parts of the game work is laughable. If people have a better method to test this - you'd think they would suggest it rather than saying this one is "balls" and not putting forward an alternative.

EBFM has released some good videos in the past which has revealed how a few of the less explained systems in FM work. And he has explained it better than the game does - and I think if the game explained some of these systems better, there would not be a need for the work that EBFM does.

But the reaction of some people replying to this is hilarious. 

He is releasing videos trying to figure out how some parts of the game relate to other parts... specifically how does OPC relate to different attributes and tactical setup. Something that is not DIRECTLY explained by FM. Why does he need to release these findings to SI? He isn't even saying anything is BROKEN! He is just saying this is how different systems work and effect each other in FM from my testing. He also lays out his testing and his saves for you to see and test yourself... If SI care so much they have access to the save files in the description of the video!

You claimed above to watch the video for all of 3 minutes. How can you be so sure his testing methods are so wrong? He uses "test" teams so he has a control group... and changes the attributes and other variables in relation to the control group. And tests it 100 times each. That is how you prove a hypothesis... 

Also notice randomly there is a very very strong pushback here against EBFM mostly only from a few people who already have a pretty cozy relationship with SI... It would seem to me like they do not like people out right testing their systems methodically and trying to explain how some aspects work that they would rather keep mysterious... 

It's a game, let people test it and put forth those findings how they want. But to say people "don't have a shred of integrity" for testing a hypothesis and releasing a video explaining their findings is a bit much. I personally really like what EBFM has done with his videos. I don't claim to think they are all 100% accurate, but I do appreciate someone at least TRYING to understand how some of the lesser explained systems in this game work. Even if SI doesn't. 

You are of course missing the point.

If people want to test things out have at it, not a problem.  The problem starts when said people release videos which appear to show either issues with the game and/or “how the game works”.  This gets into the mindset of others and it quickly becomes “fact”.  But at no point is the data given to SI for them to check and investigate.  But you’d like SI to monitor every video that gets released in the hope that they can find the data?  Come on.  All EBFM (and others) need do is open a bug report, say “hey SI something seems off here can you take a look” and upload the data to SI’s servers.  It takes 30 seconds.  And once SI have looked into it they can include the results in their video.  But they don’t do that.

So this is nothing to do with “cozy relationships”, not liking people testing things or being “fans” as someone else above said.  It’s about integrity of data and people in the community being affected by the lack thereof.  Just give the data to SI and all of this goes away.  Hilarious indeed.