Player Development & Newgens

[TopToffee]

I ran a save to 2032 on FM Touch (which while it's obviously a smaller database, I believe used most of the same logic for stuff like player development etc).

The early signs aren't good.

Not a single newgen has made it into the top 3 of the GOAL50 awards, with Mbappé having won the last 6, and still holding a pace/acceleration of 18 at the age of 32.

Top teams and international sides also seem to still be chock full of 30+ year olds.

• 14 players in their 30's in the latest England squad (and only 2 players under the age of 24)
• 20 in the latest France squad (and not a single player under 24).
• 15 in the latest Italy squad

[StevehFC]

18 minutes ago, TopToffee said:

I ran a save to 2032 on FM Touch (which while it's obviously a smaller database, I believe used most of the same logic for stuff like player development etc).

The early signs aren't good.

Not a single newgen has made it into the top 3 of the GOAL50 awards, with Mbappé having won the last 6, and still holding a pace/acceleration of 18 at the age of 32.

Top teams and international sides also seem to still be chock full of 30+ year olds.

• 14 players in their 30's in the latest England squad (and only 2 players under the age of 24)
• 20 in the latest France squad (and not a single player under 24).
• 15 in the latest Italy squad

Can't see me playing another FM23 save if it's still as a bad as before. 

[numbas2]

1 hour ago, ZEBEDEU said:

Have you noticed any issues with those files on this update? I ask you this because I noticed that Daveincid said on another thread that some of his files aren't compatible with this version.

I couldn't continue my old save with this problem, and I'm in the midst of FM addiction, so I couldn't help but start a save up pre-winter update. So I don't know. I start unemployed so transfer updates etc not essential for me really. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by numbas2

[LeoFM]

1 hour ago, SupraFlush said:

Hey all! Finally back, and with the save for 2032 done for those interested. I won't have the time to check it out today, but someone else might be interested in it or just want to play a bit in the future

https://www.mediafire.com/file/a5r7988aa57mysk/FM_Holiday_Save_-_2032.fm/file

Some observations from your save:

• Average squad age for the 20 most reputable teams: 27.9
• Only one (1) player in the England squad is under the age of 28 (he is 25)
• The player with the 7th highest current ability in England is yet to make is debut for the national team. The player with the 14th highest as well.
  
  
  Here is some general data, comparing 2022's and 2032's sets of U21 players. 
  
  
  Well, not a lot of news here really. Reputation not increasing is still a major issue for U21 players.
  
  It should be said that development wise, there does not seem to be a major difference between the number of 150+ CA players. So the top quality newgens are there.
  The 34% decrease in 130+ CA players is a bit concerning though. 
  
  Strangely, it seems that the nations affected most is the ones with leagues loaded. For instance, Sweden only had a single newgen make a debut for the national team, 10 YEARS into the future!!
  
  Another detail: fullbacks not developing their crossing and dribbling attributes is STILL A THING! At the start there are 210 players between the ages of 23-24 with 12+ crossing and dribbling. 10 years later, this number is astonishingly 13 players! That's a 94% decrease!

Edited March 3, 2023 by LeoFM

[Mitza]

55 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

Another detail: fullbacks not developing their crossing and dribbling attributes is STILL A THING! At the start there are 210 players between the ages of 23-24 with 12+ crossing and dribbling. 10 years later, this number is astonishingly 13 players! That's a 94% decrease!

That's insane. My 180 PA regen that started of with first-team stats at 17 years old actually dropped(!) 3 points in crossing over 3 years

[StevehFC]

1 hour ago, LeoFM said:

Some observations from your save:

 
 

• Another detail: fullbacks not developing their crossing and dribbling attributes is STILL A THING! At the start there are 210 players between the ages of 23-24 with 12+ crossing and dribbling. 10 years later, this number is astonishingly 13 players! That's a 94% decrease!

That’s insane and game breaking. 

[noikeee]

1 hour ago, LeoFM said:

Another detail: fullbacks not developing their crossing and dribbling attributes is STILL A THING! At the start there are 210 players between the ages of 23-24 with 12+ crossing and dribbling. 10 years later, this number is astonishingly 13 players! That's a 94% decrease!

We've complained about this as far back as FM17 ffs. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

Add those data to the bug tracker, I just made a WC 2030 in FM vs WC 2022 reality to compare the newgens that arrive to the NT in FM. The results are depressing.

 

 

[Maviarab]

They just go from one extreme to the other without ever really fixing the issue.  This been going on for the last 15+ years.

[upthetoon]

Absolutely disappointed with this game. Completely ruins long term save. Its simply not viable and you can't overlook this. 

It's been many years and still no fix for this. No faith this will be fixed for fm24. 

[abcdf]

4 ore fa, LeoFM ha scritto:

Another detail: fullbacks not developing their crossing and dribbling attributes is STILL A THING! At the start there are 210 players between the ages of 23-24 with 12+ crossing and dribbling. 10 years later, this number is astonishingly 13 players! That's a 94% decrease!

This has been a problem since FM 2010 probably. I cannot understand how difficult can it be to just fix something like this. In the last ten years we made big strides in medicine, technology, AI, but somehow it seems impossible to give decent dribbling and crossing to a fullback. 

Ridicolous honestly, just ridicoulous.

[abcdf]

3 minuti fa, upthetoon ha scritto:

Absolutely disappointed with this game. Completely ruins long term save. Its simply not viable and you can't overlook this. 

It's been many years and still no fix for this. No faith this will be fixed for fm24. 

This is my last year, and I am being serious. The worst part is that development was one of the few things that worked quite WELL before FM2022, they decided to break it intentionally just to do it! Instead of focusing on the actual problems of the game. I simply cannot understand their reasoning, I just can't.

[Robioto]

Some of these findings are worse than my own.

I think it may have to be back to FM21...

[Dotsworthy]

14 hours ago, LeoFM said:

• It should be said that development wise, there does not seem to be a major difference between the number of 150+ CA players. So the top quality newgens are there.
  The 34% decrease in 130+ CA players is a bit concerning though. 
  
  Another detail: fullbacks not developing their crossing and dribbling attributes is STILL A THING! At the start there are 210 players between the ages of 23-24 with 12+ crossing and dribbling. 10 years later, this number is astonishingly 13 players! That's a 94% decrease!

I'm glad at the least CA growth has improved. It was pretty bad seeing 190+ rated 21  year olds in the reserves with 120 CA.

I think the fullback thing is another issue. I believe that because most teams put full backs in the defensive unit, they are not getting any crossing training at all, causing it to decline.

 

[andu1]

I've seen 19 years old getting a call up for some squads like Italy and Germany in my 2028 save. That would never happen in the previous patch. They were called after the update.

[TheAwesomeGem]

So nothing was fixed yet again...

 

Back to playing Fifa 23 which has better AI squad management.

Edited March 4, 2023 by TheAwesomeGem

[marioNOW]

On 03/03/2023 at 21:59, StevehFC said:

That’s insane and game breaking. 

Insane that this is in the game for multiple years now and us loyal players are still believe that sometime this might be fixed with a patch. Trust is hard to earn but easy to lose :). 

[StevehFC]

1 hour ago, marioNOW said:

Insane that this is in the game for multiple years now and us loyal players are still believe that sometime this might be fixed with a patch. Trust is hard to earn but easy to lose :). 

Learnt my lesson this year. Won't be getting another penny from me until these issues are fixed. 

Wouldn't blame anyone if they used the in-game editor for stuff like this. 

[Maviarab]

15 hours ago, StevehFC said:

Wouldn't blame anyone if they used the in-game editor for stuff like this. 

One could argue it's a neccessity....wonder why it keeps going up in price every year?  Beta test the game for us, tell us about issues we don't care about and won't/can't fix (because after years, it's one or the other isn't it?)...oh and give us your hard earned for an editor so you can fix them yourself....

 

[Zapoleon]

16 hours ago, andu1 said:

I've seen 19 years old getting a call up for some squads like Italy and Germany in my 2028 save. That would never happen in the previous patch. They were called after the update.

Yep, has defo been a tiny tiny improvement where you now see the odd few getting picked. Where as before hand before this patch there was a cut off where players under 24 would not get picked.

Still way off from where it should be though. Compared to real life. 

And though some nations now get younger players in their squads from my saves I notice some nations like France still don't get younger players in their squad. 

[HUNT3R]

Have removed the last couple of posts @Maviarab & @StevehFC. Discussion around that program isn't allowed on the forum. Take it to PMs if you have to.

[albertocerdeira.4]

Waiting for SI to tell us something. For me the only valid answer is "We'll do whatever is needed in order to have this issue fixed".

 

But I am dreaming, I suppose

[Delvi]

Good to know, I will not waste money and time with FM 2023. I'll check the forum next year after 24.3 release to see if they finally fixed this. 

[Maviarab]

8 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Have removed the last couple of posts @Maviarab & @StevehFC. Discussion around that program isn't allowed on the forum. Take it to PMs if you have to.

Apologies Hunter.

[HUNT3R]

No worries. 

[TheAwesomeGem]

This is not a trivial issue to fix. It requires major rework on manager AI which has been lacking for a while now. AI Manager's team selection and transfers needs a major overhaul to add more challenges. It's easy to win UCL after 5-6 seasons repeatedly because all AI managed teams gets worse overtime, which completely kills any immersion.  It makes the game way too static and makes me feel like everything revolves around me which is not a true simulation.

Edited March 6, 2023 by TheAwesomeGem

[StevehFC]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

No worries. 

Apologies didn't know. 

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 1 hora, TheAwesomeGem dijo:

This is not a trivial issue to fix. It requires major rework on manager AI which has been lacking for a while now. AI Manager's team selection and transfers needs a major overhaul to add more challenges. It's easy to win UCL after 5-6 seasons repeatedly because all AI managed teams gets worse overtime, which completely kills any immersion.  It makes the game way too static and makes me feel like everything revolves around me which is not a true simulation.

They have this issue reported since beginning of 2022 at least. There is any excuse

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

They have this issue reported since beginning of 2022 at least. There is any excuse

I agree, please upload examples to SI showing it. I found the one you created earlier, but you haven't uploaded any save to SI, so your issue is still open without saves. They asked for a save in December, so please provide one.

The more examples SI have for this, the more they can fine tune it.

[StevehFC]

Doing a holiday save and would say after one year the youth players development is good enough. 

[noikeee]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

I agree, please upload examples to SI showing it. I found the one you created earlier, but you haven't uploaded any save to SI, so your issue is still open without saves. They asked for a save in December, so please provide one.

The more examples SI have for this, the more they can fine tune it.

I get that it's easier to debug an issue with the specific conditions it happened in, but if this is a widespread issue as it seems like it's been forever, holidaying a game isn't very hard. This is a large game balance issue, it shouldn't need specific users to send savegames, it should be noticeable in any internal test savegames.

Edited March 6, 2023 by noikeee

[XaW]

1 minute ago, noikeee said:

I get that it's easier to debug an issue with the specific conditions it happened in, but if this is a widespread issue as it seems like it's been forever, holidaying a game isn't very hard. This is a large game balance issue, it shouldn't need specific users to send savegames, it should be noticeable in any internal test savegames.

I agree, but I always think that more bug reports and more saves showing the issue will at the very least put the issue higher up on SI's priority. That's why I point people there. For me this is one of the biggest issues in FM at the moment, so I'm not at all disagreeing with anyone here.

[zachalxnder]

53 minutes ago, StevehFC said:

Doing a holiday save and would say after one year the youth players development is good enough. 

Interesting - is the AI playing youth? Is this a problem that’s more representative of how little attention SI have given national teams v. clubs? 

[zachalxnder]

On 04/03/2023 at 18:56, TheAwesomeGem said:

So nothing was fixed yet again...

 

Back to playing Fifa 23 which has better AI squad management.

Would you say FIFA actually delivers a more realistic experience at this point than FM? Serious question. I used to play FIFA religiously, but stopped several years ago. 

[StevehFC]

1 hour ago, zachalxnder said:

Interesting - is the AI playing youth? Is this a problem that’s more representative of how little attention SI have given national teams v. clubs? 

More youngsters seem to be playing. For my team in my holiday save, their’s players who had 85 CA at the start of my save who went out on loan and 18 months into the save are over 105 for CA at the age of 17 and 18. 

[zachalxnder]

1 hour ago, StevehFC said:

More youngsters seem to be playing. For my team in my holiday save, their’s players who had 85 CA at the start of my save who went out on loan and 18 months into the save are over 105 for CA at the age of 17 and 18. 

Beginning to think this problem is also a symptom of a lack of care towards national team management … not as concerned if there has been an improvement across clubs 

[StevehFC]

54 minutes ago, zachalxnder said:

Beginning to think this problem is also a symptom of a lack of care towards national team management … not as concerned if there has been an improvement across clubs 

Think going by my holiday save so far. Youngsters do improve a lot better in this update. Think the issue is more to do with national team management like you said. 

 

[zachalxnder]

1 hour ago, StevehFC said:

Think going by my holiday save so far. Youngsters do improve a lot better in this update. Think the issue is more to do with national team management like you said. 

 

This also tracks with my experience. It also explains why the problem is more pronounced when users illustrate it via national team squads. Further, if SI are less likely to tinker with international play, then it makes sense why that problem still persists. 

[StevehFC]

56 minutes ago, zachalxnder said:

This also tracks with my experience. It also explains why the problem is more pronounced when users illustrate it via national team squads. Further, if SI are less likely to tinker with international play, then it makes sense why that problem still persists. 

After testing the holiday save. It's worth starting a new save with the update. Only usually play for around 5 or seasons anyway. 

[zachalxnder]

3 hours ago, StevehFC said:

After testing the holiday save. It's worth starting a new save with the update. Only usually play for around 5 or seasons anyway. 

I started an Arsenal save. Interested to see how things look when I’m deeper down the line 

[Socerer 01]

On 04/03/2023 at 06:22, Robioto said:

Some of these findings are worse than my own.

I think it may have to be back to FM21...

how is fm21 compared to current fm? Is it worth going back to it? Are there any things that you might miss on?

[Delvi]

In my opinion the real problem is the lack of a certain kind of players when you progress with seasons.

Fullback with good cross are just an example there are few others.

[Dotsworthy]

4 hours ago, Socerer 01 said:

how is fm21 compared to current fm? Is it worth going back to it? Are there any things that you might miss on?

In FM21 players under 24 increase in CA much faster, although after 24 that's basically it, whereas in FM22/23 the progression is much slower but also can improve players past 24.

Also, in FM21 older players basically drop off a cliff after 30, whereas in FM22/23 players can last well into their 30s, although it's possible they went too much in the opposite direction.

As a result, FM21 AI replaces it's older players with younger players constantly, although 30 year olds decline too rapidly.

FM21 still has the same issues with newgen attributes (full backs with low crossing).

I don't know whether you would really see a difference between FM21 and FM23 other than noticing the average ages of squads are different, now that they've at least fixed young players getting game time. Not to say there isn't problems but FM22 is where the problem was really bad.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Dotsworthy

[Dotsworthy]

On 03/03/2023 at 17:55, SupraFlush said:

Hey all! Finally back, and with the save for 2032 done for those interested. I won't have the time to check it out today, but someone else might be interested in it or just want to play a bit in the future

https://www.mediafire.com/file/a5r7988aa57mysk/FM_Holiday_Save_-_2032.fm/file

This is unrelated but 6 teams in the champions league in 2032....

[Ilpo_G]

One problem with fullbacks/wingbacks is that if you set their individual training to train Crossing, they'll start to complaining about "individual training is not beneficial" or "unhappy with individual training". That happens almost every time. So it's pretty much impossible to get them improve crossing.

[priority76]

1 hour ago, Dotsworthy said:

This is unrelated but 6 teams in the champions league in 2032....

Nice!

[albertocerdeira.4]

Has SI in their plans to tell us something about this issue after another failed update?

[priority76]

I can't believe it, a 22 year old is 4th in the best players in the world.

[numbas2]

On 03/03/2023 at 13:07, numbas2 said:

Fantastic that this has generated so much noise.

I've actually started a new save with @Daveincid database, last Friday, pre-data update (I just couldn't wait...) and hope to avoid these issues to some extent.

Unfortunately this save has pretty much died by 2035. I can't find the players who are good enough to maintain my team and the youngsters are no where to be seen. I'm gutted all over again as long term saves are my thing.

[TheAwesomeGem]

Has this been fixed on the latest FM? This is the reason why I stopped playing FM 23 as the average of every teams increasing a lot by the end of year 4.