Roberto de Zerbi - Tactical Attempt and Discussion

[anderson36015]

For me Roberto de Zerbi is one of the more fascinating coaches to watch at the top level of football. After playing a few seasons struggling to settle on a system for my team I've decided to start my next season focused on attempting to take elements of his style of play and implement them on to my Derby County team.

Although exact replications are (I think) almost impossible to recreate, I'm going to detail a few elements and how I think they could translate.

The first element is the build up shape. Variations are used by de Zerbi but the shape I see most is a fairly simple 2-4 build up , two centre backs on one line and Two central midfielders and two full backs on the next line. What makes it less simple is how deep these six players come. As you can see on the image below the the centre backs are in a fairly standard  position for a possession team, but the line of four are deep in line with the edge of the penalty area. 

Also on the image below we can see the wider team set up in build up that we will aim for. Further up the Attacking midfielder and centre forward split into ore of a two in the half spaces, with the wide players keeping the width. So the full aim of our build up shape will essentially be a 2-4-4.

So with the above considered, we will line up in what the game calls a 4231 DM AM Wide formation (below).

 

 

This is just a starting point and will most likely be subject to changes.

Some player instructions I am considering once I've seen it play out over a few games are the full backs to sit narrower as in de Zerbi's build up the 2-4 is often quite tight together.

I'm a bit undecided on the wide players as they should really be wingers but I think if I have wingers each side they may not provide as much of a box presence as the IW's will, stay wider PI may be an option there but something to keep an eye on.

I'm also thinking the AM may need either roam from position or move into channes (or both) if the AM and CF don't move too well to form a flatter two initially.

I've kept the Team Instructions fairly simple for now. Hoping to build out from defence and also have low crosses to hopefully favour low cut backs over general crossing. De Zerbi also favours a higher pressing system so have set those instructions accordingly.

 

I am planning to do some updates after a few games, but please treat this as a discussion as I'd be interested if anyone else is attempting this and how they're getting along. There are many more aspects of de Zerbis's play which I may go into once I get this basic initial shape working how I want as this should give a good platform to build on.

 

[Yisz]

I've been trying to replicate De Zerbi on some occasions, mostly his attempt to lure the opponent out and then via 1 or 2 quick direct passes launching an attack.

 

My back line is similar to yours but I use 2 BPD as I like both my defenders to make the risky pass. My FB do indeed have stay narrower. My 2 wingers is, as you've said, what is the most difficult to replicate I've found as they stay really wide but De Zerbi plays really narrow. Wingers do the job fine of staying wide, but don't really replicate irl stuff. IW with stay wider doesn't seem to stay wide enough to my liking.

 

What I used was play out of defence with a lower mentality but a direct passing style. They will slowly play out of the back and when they see the opportunity they launch a direct pass forward to attack.

[typ2603]

17 minutes ago, Yisz said:

I've been trying to replicate De Zerbi on some occasions, mostly his attempt to lure the opponent out and then via 1 or 2 quick direct passes launching an attack.

 

My back line is similar to yours but I use 2 BPD as I like both my defenders to make the risky pass. My FB do indeed have stay narrower. My 2 wingers is, as you've said, what is the most difficult to replicate I've found as they stay really wide but De Zerbi plays really narrow. Wingers do the job fine of staying wide, but don't really replicate irl stuff. IW with stay wider doesn't seem to stay wide enough to my liking.

 

What I used was play out of defence with a lower mentality but a direct passing style. They will slowly play out of the back and when they see the opportunity they launch a direct pass forward to attack.

You could potentially try the winger role, but using players with the "cut inside" trait + are playing on their opposite side (i.e. RW is a left footer etc.) - heard it helps, but yet to try it out myself.

[Yisz]

28 minutes ago, typ2603 said:

You could potentially try the winger role, but using players with the "cut inside" trait + are playing on their opposite side (i.e. RW is a left footer etc.) - heard it helps, but yet to try it out myself.

Ooh, good idea.

 

Will defo try that out

[anderson36015]

13 hours ago, Yisz said:

I've been trying to replicate De Zerbi on some occasions, mostly his attempt to lure the opponent out and then via 1 or 2 quick direct passes launching an attack.

 

My back line is similar to yours but I use 2 BPD as I like both my defenders to make the risky pass. My FB do indeed have stay narrower. My 2 wingers is, as you've said, what is the most difficult to replicate I've found as they stay really wide but De Zerbi plays really narrow. Wingers do the job fine of staying wide, but don't really replicate irl stuff. IW with stay wider doesn't seem to stay wide enough to my liking.

 

What I used was play out of defence with a lower mentality but a direct passing style. They will slowly play out of the back and when they see the opportunity they launch a direct pass forward to attack.

Interesting, hadn't actually thought of doing it that way round.

That will be one of the hardest part to replicate in this tactic, the transition from super heavy possession at the back to directness once you break through their press.

[Yisz]

41 minutes ago, anderson36015 said:

Interesting, hadn't actually thought of doing it that way round.

That will be one of the hardest part to replicate in this tactic, the transition from super heavy possession at the back to directness once you break through their press.

Just seen I’ve typed lower mentality but really ment tempo .

so they pass the ball around slowly, drawing opponents out of position and sometimes even dwelling on the ball like they do irl and then, when they think they can make the direct pass forward, they do so. 

[AlexandreMCD]

I think this would be a great time to revive this thread, with his approach being very successful in the Premier League this far. However, the fluidity of movements paired with the rationale occupation of spaces is very hard to replicate in FM. I feel that every player except the wingers should be on support duty, but his teams never lack penetrative movements. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by AlexandreMCD

[Solly Marchinho 7]

How are you getting on with the tactic? I'm finding it hard to get it to tick with the Brighton squad and we're struggling to score...

 

[Yisz]

I think the most difficult part is to get that ‘click’ where your players get the tempo in their play instead of dwelling on the ball playing ood. 
 

getting his 2-4 build up shape is quite easy, but letting your players dwell on it just long enough so the opposition gets drawn out and then getting your players to up the tempo is a whole other story

[mbyrd75]

6 hours ago, Yisz said:

I think the most difficult part is to get that ‘click’ where your players get the tempo in their play instead of dwelling on the ball playing ood. 
 

getting his 2-4 build up shape is quite easy, but letting your players dwell on it just long enough so the opposition gets drawn out and then getting your players to up the tempo is a whole other story

Wonder if it could be done with PPM similar to the fix above. Having both CBs with Dwells on ball trait, lower tempo and more direct passing maybe? 

[anderson36015]

Hoping to have an update on this over the next few days. Typical I finally decide to start a thread then have barely any time to actually play!

I've managed to get the 2-4-4 build up almost how I want it (wingers still undecided on)

Also managing to see a lot of what I've heard De Zerbi calls 'S passing'. Which is basically the ball moving like an S up the field vertically when the press is baited (So kind of CB to DM's to AM to ST/wide)

[Flußkrebs]

I've been playing with a 424 with DMs and the FBa BPD BPD FBa back line, and whilst it wasn't intended as a De Zerbi recreation, it gets the drawing teams out part really well.

I signed a CB with the trait "stops play" and another with "stay back at all times". Then due to the magic of mentoring/training, all 3 of my first choice CBs picked up both of these traits. At first I found this annoying, but then realised that combined with my 2 DMs (one with traits like moves into channels, another with comes deep to get ball) and the full backs instead of wingbacks, it made it really easy to encourage opponents to press high. Basically my CBs will just tap the ball to each other until the opponent engages, play it quickly through the lines to either a dropping IFs, DM behind the first line of pressure, or a full back breaking high, and then create the De Zerbi/Conte in possession transition. Having Pass into space, cautious or balanced mentality, and higher tempo seems to work with this.

So yeah, assuming your CBs have the technical ability and composure to do so (same with GK) developing these risky traits like stops play and stays back at all time will help bait the opponent. 

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, anderson36015 said:

Hoping to have an update on this over the next few days. Typical I finally decide to start a thread then have barely any time to actually play!

I've managed to get the 2-4-4 build up almost how I want it (wingers still undecided on)

Also managing to see a lot of what I've heard De Zerbi calls 'S passing'. Which is basically the ball moving like an S up the field vertically when the press is baited (So kind of CB to DM's to AM to ST/wide)

Gets a mention in the latest tifo video amongst excellent de Zerbi tactical analysis

Why Brighton defenders put their studs on the ball

[AmericanMilanista]

9 hours ago, mbyrd75 said:

Wonder if it could be done with PPM similar to the fix above. Having both CBs with Dwells on ball trait, lower tempo and more direct passing maybe? 

I was considering this as well with my De Zerbi save using Brighton.  But I thought Dwells on the Ball had a negative connotation to it and was looking to instead train Stops Play for my BPDs.  

Regardless... I was hesitating to create a "please help me with making accurate tactics" and you all saved me a ton of keystrokes.  So thank you for the great back-and-forth so far!

[Solly Marchinho 7]

Do we have screenshots where everones gotten to so far?

OP to press CBS and press+tight mark FB/WBs and CMs

Edited January 16, 2023 by Solly Marchinho 7

[OJ403]

I'm yet to get too into any particular save for a number of reasons this FM, but I keep coming back to this style of play.

In the past I've had success create this style of build up on an attacking mentality with the "retain possession" TI ticked, back when it was available. Since it was removed I haven't particularly played in this style, but I imagine a combination of one or some of the lowest tempo, shortest passing length, be more disciplined and/or hold shape could get something along these lines to work. The attacking mentality encouraged more artificially created transitional moments, whilst retain possession helped reduce the risk factor that comes with the higher mentality.

[BrunoG39]

https://footyfull.com/premier-league/brighton-hove-albion-vs-liverpool-14-01-2023/

Edited January 17, 2023 by BrunoG39

[mbyrd75]

i think @RDF Tacticsdid a really good job on FM22 recreacting RDZ especially the more direct movement in the final 3rd by having run at defense. I do think the one thing missing is the luring in of the press which really doesn't happen much. though it's a good base tactic to start on because he got most of the roles right. Just need to adapt it a bit for 23 i think and figure out the standing on the ball. Which others have pointed out could conceivably be done by having CB/FB with stops play trait.

https://www.rdftactics.com/post/immaculate-4231-de-zerbi-s-intriguing-tactics-fm22-tactics-football-manager-2022

Edited January 17, 2023 by mbyrd75

[Yisz]

17 hours ago, Solly Marchinho 7 said:

Do we have screenshots where everones gotten to so far?

OP to press CBS and press+tight mark FB/WBs and CMs

Agree with most roles, but I think the LB and RB aren’t WB as they often underlap as well as not providing width that often.

FB-att does the trick with PI stay narrower (as they do in build-up phase). They replicate the movement really well

[WilliamSerna]

I have to agree with you! I also think that Roberto de Zerbi is a great coach and that he has done a ot of great things for his team. I like the way he manages them but somehow it confuses me to think how the team is able to pull it off every single time. I hope our team can do that as well.

[Richarlison]

Good manager,will be interesting to see how he gets on in the future for Brighton

[breze77]

I've actually gone in a different direction when trying to replicate De Zerbi's tactics. I've gone for an asymmetric 4411 formation with IWB and WM on the flanks. The WM's have the PIs: Cross less often, Sit narrower and Cut inside with ball, and both my SS and DLF have the Roam from position PI ticked. I feel this combination of IWB's and WM's causes the unpredictabilty of who goes wide and who cuts inside quite well. I wanted both my front two to move into channels, but also to help with build up play from the central positions. That's why I gave them the roam from position instruction. Now I usually start with the Attacking mentality, but it does depend from game to game, sometimes it works better sometimes not at all. I think the shorter passing, higher tempo and attacking mentality do work well in trying to draw the press from the opposition. The 2-4 shape at the back paired with shorter passing means that the players will naturaly pass it between them when playing out from the back so I don't think a lower tempo is really needed here. The higher tempo also helps them beat the press when it does come as they try to exploit the spaces left immediately. The attacking mentality also helps with this as they will try more risks (it also provides some nice direct football in the final third to catch the opponent off guard).

Now I'm playing as Ibiza in Spain's second division and my defence is quite bad and slow currently (I opted to recruit attackers and midfielders over defenders this summer window), so I went with a mid block and standard defensive line. The high press does work when I tried it, but my defence just isn't good enough to play with a high line, so I felt the risk wasn't worth it. I've had mixed results, maybe due to poor players, some teams just being better than me or sometimes our weaknesses just get exploited. But despite all this, the tactic seems to work and provides some nice DeZerbi style football.

Note: Not really sure the "Run at defence" instruction is something that improves De Zerbi's style of play but it does improve how my team plays, so I'm sticking with it.

 

Also the passmaps from some Brighton games this season and our passmaps seem to match pretty well.

Spoiler

Here's a nice team goal built up from the back (albeit from a free kick):

Notice how to left IWB was going out wide when the WM was going inside, and on the other side, the right IWB was trying to go outside, but decided to cut inside when he saw the WM was already in the wide position.

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by breze77

[Stukey]

Being a Brighton fan and season ticket holder some of the assumptions made in this thread are incorrect, at least with how de Zerbi is setting up since Mitoma came into the team. The left inverted winger (Mitoma) stays so high and wide in de Zerbis system as it is now. He is always the furthest forward and starts right on the touchline so, for me, he needs to be an inverted winger on attack with stays wider but really FM does not allow you to accurately reflect his role. If You could put him in the striker line but wide left that would be more accurate. I might try and train him with breaks offside trap if that is even possible. Or a new player trait of 'stays beyond the full back'. I need to play around with this.

The other player that really confuses issues is Gross at right back, maybe breze77's inverted wing backs are the answer on this side but the problem is that has cross left often hard wired into it. Gross spends a lot of time hanging out in that de Bruyne position in the right half space looking to whip balls in to the box so that would be priority number 1 for me from him. Estupinan on the other side is a classic overlapping full back most of the time so much simpler.

The wingers are definitely both inverted wingers in the am line though.

[breze77]

3 hours ago, Stukey said:

Being a Brighton fan and season ticket holder some of the assumptions made in this thread are incorrect, at least with how de Zerbi is setting up since Mitoma came into the team. The left inverted winger (Mitoma) stays so high and wide in de Zerbis system as it is now. He is always the furthest forward and starts right on the touchline so, for me, he needs to be an inverted winger on attack with stays wider but really FM does not allow you to accurately reflect his role. If You could put him in the striker line but wide left that would be more accurate. I might try and train him with breaks offside trap if that is even possible. Or a new player trait of 'stays beyond the full back'. I need to play around with this.

The other player that really confuses issues is Gross at right back, maybe breze77's inverted wing backs are the answer on this side but the problem is that has cross left often hard wired into it. Gross spends a lot of time hanging out in that de Bruyne position in the right half space looking to whip balls in to the box so that would be priority number 1 for me from him. Estupinan on the other side is a classic overlapping full back most of the time so much simpler.

The wingers are definitely both inverted wingers in the am line though.

Yeah I mostly put the wingers in the midfield line, to be more defensively solid. I more adapted some of his principles and play style into my team, rather than trying to recreate exactly how Brighton are playing right now.

In the clip I posted you can see the left midfielder is basically right next to my shadow striker at the start of the build up. Maybe if the player was right footed and had the "move into channels" PPM and perhaps a "roam from position" PI he would be making a more central run, parallel with the shadow striker. A lot of factors to take into account and probably a lot of different ways to implement his ideas. Also depending on your players and your team.

[Solly Marchinho 7]

FMTREQ has done a pretty good remake - similar to much of the thread. 

 

[mbyrd75]

I've had some decent success with my tweaked version of @RDF Tacticsremake of De Zerbi. Took over Everton after lampard was sacked during the World Cup break. Only losses so far to Liverpool in the cup and an odd one at home to brighton 1-0. I didn't adjust a ton but changed some things that i think are better on FM23 than they were on FM22 when he made it. For instance FB over WB. Currently training all my CBs to stop play will see how that changes/improves the play style. right now the FBs still get on the ball and move forward much too quickly. Also training my CMs to come deep for the ball. 
 

[breze77]

So after a couple of dissapointing results I've tried to change things up a bit and went with a more standard 4-2-3-1 with high pressing:

I got some better defenders in the January transfer window and felt comfortable pushing my wingers up. The TI's mostly stayed the same, except for a higher pressing.

The IW's both have "stay wider" and "cross less often" ticked and the FBa has the "sit narrower" instruction. My AMa also has the "move into channels" instruction.

It's producing some nice football and I've gotten some brilliant results since I started using this tactic.

Mallorca are the current league leaders and Albacete sit in a comfortable 5th place (I'm currently sitting in 9th). Also both of the cup games were played mostly by my youth players, so nice to see they can get some good results too with this tactic.

If we take a look at the pass map below, we're still getting that nice 2-4-4 in build up (I think it's even more similar to the Brighton ones - you can find some here: http://mclachbot.com/passmap_list/brighton/2022).

Not sure if these are really your typical "De Zerbi" goals but just wanted to showcase some of the nice football we produce:

 

A brilliant underlaping run from the FBa, and I think this is the first time I've seen a player square the ball to the striker in such a position .

 

And here we have the IWBa on the other flank producing another brilliant goal. The right sided IW pulled their LB out of position by staying wide, and the remaining front 3 were occupying the rest of their defence.

[Yisz]

Interesting video

[Gonzo666]

On 20/01/2023 at 18:15, Yisz said:

Interesting video

It's utter garbaggio. Remember, FMTREQ is foremost an entainer, he hasn't put the effort in, and at the end of the day it's quite simply not an accurate tactical representation of De Zerbi, I watched the video - the sources he cites as his backbone for re-emulation of Zerbiball are non existant, and what he has ended up delivering to the viewer is utter tripe. He's jumped on a tiktok recipe trend (sexy tasty dezerbiball) and instead of creating the viral feta pasta, he's gone and made a ****ing omelette without any eggs.

 

anyway so the biggest challenge is getting the progressive passives from the two cb's whilst luring in the opposition and being able to switch tempo at any given moment

 

i'm coming up with the solution and starting to see a lot more of:

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gonzo666

[Gonzo666]

watch how we invite pressure playing slow and then and get this sexy chance away at SPEED

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gonzo666

[Gonzo666]

it's all coming together

currently aboslutely domineering this newcastle side who sit 4th

edit: game crashed at 3-1 but it is what it is!

my back line have mastered lulling the opposition in and striking at pace, both cbs 100% need stops play + stays back all times, likes to switch ball to wide areas is also very sexy

 

yes it's fm22 but it's translatable, both CBs have take more risks, LB sit narrow cross from byline,

we can see that in almost every game brighton play caicedo is more of a holder and actually moves over to the centre, so i dont think playing him in a right sided strata is a good idea, i've actually gone with dlp(d) which represents this best in game

i find that using wingers best emulates the lw/rw of brighton, in bed with very narrow team posession instruction... 

the pf has roams from ball, naturally

my iwb, gross, is superb and almost perfectly emulates what hes doing for brighton, because gross makes so many prog passes irl, i gave the role takes more risks + gets forward and i find that a iwb on support will go to the outside more often than if using iwb a ... so its a better balance, its also so sexy in the build up

focus play down the left because that's what brighton do, at times i will change the mitoma role to a winger on support with get further forward... and perhaps making the striker pf(a) instead of pf(s) but for the most part i keep it as it is....

i just think using the hold shape when possession is won does not slow our attacks at all and helps us further lure in the opposition before we strike with full erection

anyway fm22 because fm23 is genuine garbaggio lets pray fm24 is corrected

 

currently playing the sexiest football ive ever seen on fm and we cant stop scoring, defence is a bit leaky but fm22 player ratings are kinda whack for brighton not gonna lie

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gonzo666

[Gonzo666]

check out this finish from sollyboy marchinho very similar to his one other day

 

edit: give sollyboy marchinho gets into opposition area and watch beauty unfold

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gonzo666

[Gonzo666]

the cb passing is too sexy

 

check it out... its just beautiful, the cm(s) and dlp(d) are playing so clsoe to eachother always like they do in real life, gross has come inside, estupian made an overlapping run and mitoma went inside, lallana is 2 bumps from a ket hole so his space investigation is at optimum capabilities, also, i find that having cm(s) above the dm strata also is more accurately representing mac allister... obviously he has the traits arrives into box late and shoots more often i think, so depending on who u play in the cm(s), it can actually be reallly interesting role for build up

fb(a) stays narrow is actually so beautiful, i constantly find estupiñán in these situations where mitoma or whoever is on left wing has gone wide and then the fullback hes cutting inside like an emo in 2010

Estupiñán hit that like a cannon, the net is clearly a showpiece by Theo van Doesburg constructed out of solid steel

 

 

 

so on the left is the 4-1 win vs everton at goodison park the other day and on the right is the game i just played vs newcastle, some nice simularities there,

 

 

beautiful!

 

also, using tight marking + tackle harder is really useful i've found especially with this, often brighton one of the cbs atleast is tight marking, and giving it to the fullbacks is also v useful

 

lovely, none of our goals scored in the last 5 games have come from crosses... (not counting corners) beautiful

 

edit: remember to give sanchez tries to play way out of trouble... super important

 

lets be real though, bring back sliders n more options of customising tactics... this game is becoming so childlike its sad, give us the freedom to actually emulate real life football instead of having to find workarounds on this outdated and way way way overly simplified game

the game is all about tactics! sort it out si! stop adding filler and completely revamp tactic creation!

Edited January 22, 2023 by Gonzo666

[AmericanMilanista]

I've struggled against 3ATB with De Zerbi's tactics (or at least what FM23 ME will allow).  Are there any big changes you guys make to your tactics put aside when facing an opponent with this setup?

[TheMartello]

22 hours ago, Gonzo666 said:

the cb passing is too sexy

 

 

check it out... its just beautiful, the cm(s) and dlp(d) are playing so clsoe to eachother always like they do in real life, gross has come inside, estupian made an overlapping run and mitoma went inside, lallana is 2 bumps from a ket hole so his space investigation is at optimum capabilities, also, i find that having cm(s) above the dm strata also is more accurately representing mac allister... obviously he has the traits arrives into box late and shoots more often i think, so depending on who u play in the cm(s), it can actually be reallly interesting role for build up

fb(a) stays narrow is actually so beautiful, i constantly find estupiñán in these situations where mitoma or whoever is on left wing has gone wide and then the fullback hes cutting inside like an emo in 2010

 

Estupiñán hit that like a cannon, the net is clearly a showpiece by Theo van Doesburg constructed out of solid steel

 

 

 

so on the left is the 4-1 win vs everton at goodison park the other day and on the right is the game i just played vs newcastle, some nice simularities there,

 

 

beautiful!

 

also, using tight marking + tackle harder is really useful i've found especially with this, often brighton one of the cbs atleast is tight marking, and giving it to the fullbacks is also v useful

 

lovely, none of our goals scored in the last 5 games have come from crosses... (not counting corners) beautiful

 

edit: remember to give sanchez tries to play way out of trouble... super important

 

lets be real though, bring back sliders n more options of customising tactics... this game is becoming so childlike its sad, give us the freedom to actually emulate real life football instead of having to find workarounds on this outdated and way way way overly simplified game

the game is all about tactics! sort it out si! stop adding filler and completely revamp tactic creation!

Can you please post the specific player instructions you use in every position in your tactics?

It looks great and I Would like to try it out!

[Gonzo666]

okay forget everything i wrote, the key to this is using 'dribble less'... both wingers must have runs with ball, defenders need stops play/stays back at all times, and maybe dwells on ball if possible...

[odee]

En 26/1/2023 a las 13:59, Gonzo666 dijo:

okay forget everything i wrote, the key to this is using 'dribble less'... both wingers must have runs with ball, defenders need stops play/stays back at all times, and maybe dwells on ball if possible...

dribble less as a TI or PI?

Edited April 7, 2023 by odee

[yellowforever]

Currently trying to implement a de Zerbi approach to my Rennes team but it's proving to be pretty challenging. If it goes well I'll post the process on here. Key points to me seem to be:

• Possession derived from playing out from the back in numbers - Play out of Defence/Short passing mandatory, distributing to CBs and FBs as well
• Wide players holding width and attacking space aggressively - IW/W on A with 'stay wider'
• Double pivot to drop deep in build up but also engage in attacks - two in DM strata on a support role
• Wing-backs versatile in staying inside in build up, and sometimes going on overlap but occasionally under-lapping.
• Offsetting the AM/ST? Watching Brighton play I'd consider them to be both on support roles, but worried that would lead to a lack of penetration up top

Edited April 7, 2023 by yellowforever

[odee]

En 7/4/2023 a las 10:13, yellowforever dijo:

Offsetting the AM/ST? Watching Brighton play I'd consider them to be both on support roles, but worried that would lead to a lack of penetration up top

I'd definitely use Ferguson as a DLF(s), maybe a CF(s) on right halfspace

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by odee

[LukeSavo]

On 07/04/2023 at 15:13, yellowforever said:

Currently trying to implement a de Zerbi approach to my Rennes team but it's proving to be pretty challenging. If it goes well I'll post the process on here. Key points to me seem to be:

• Possession derived from playing out from the back in numbers - Play out of Defence/Short passing mandatory, distributing to CBs and FBs as well
• Wide players holding width and attacking space aggressively - IW/W on A with 'stay wider'
• Double pivot to drop deep in build up but also engage in attacks - two in DM strata on a support role
• Wing-backs versatile in staying inside in build up, and sometimes going on overlap but occasionally under-lapping.
• Offsetting the AM/ST? Watching Brighton play I'd consider them to be both on support roles, but worried that would lead to a lack of penetration up top

IMHO you’re spot on with your take on his tactic. 
Any luck creating it or did you hit a dead end?

[yellowforever]

 

This is what I've been working with and it seems to do a decent job of emulating how they play, not sure how effective it is in game but we managed to finish 2nd behind PSG in Ligue 1. 

WB: Sit Narrower, Shoot Less Often

CB: Dribble Less

DM & VOL: Dribble Less, Tackle Harder, Mark Tighter

IW: Take More Risks, Stay Wider

AP: Move into Channels

If you have good 'wrong' footed wide players with the 'cut insides' trait then you can try them as Wingers.

Edited April 26, 2023 by yellowforever

[ChrisKjf]

I feel like this is quite similar to how De Zerbi sets his teams up.

The two central midfielders still come deep in build up despite not being in DM strata, whilst DLF and false 9 also drop quite deep.

Both IWs have instructions to stay wider and roam from position, false 9 has instructions to move into channels and roam from position, rest of team have no individual instructions.

I have tried the same shape with pure wingers on attack but they don't seem to push up as far as inverted wingers do, also pure wingers cross the ball way too much for my liking.

The IWBs stay wide in build up and then invert to create the three in midfield with the mezzala pushing up.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by ChrisKjf

[Fantasista10]

19 hours ago, yellowforever said:

 

This is what I've been working with and it seems to do a decent job of emulating how they play, not sure how effective it is in game but we managed to finish 2nd behind PSG in Ligue 1. 

WB: Sit Narrower, Shoot Less Often

CB: Dribble Less

DM & VOL: Dribble Less, Tackle Harder, Mark Tighter

IW: Take More Risks, Stay Wider

AP: Move into Channels

If you have good 'wrong' footed wide players with the 'cut insides' trait then you can try them as Wingers.

Looks like a pretty faithful recreation, quite similar to how I would set it up ideally. 
 

My only concern would be a lack of penetration through the middle. How did your AP and DLF perform? 

[jc577]

Loving this thread! For me, Brighton line up in an asymmetric 4231 with the ST in the left channel and AM offset to the right. At times Brighton do resemble a 424(0) in build up with both the two central forwards dropping off the front to receive. 

If going 4231, I'd go with an AM-S as Mac10 does pop up in the box quite frequently, and I feel this would compliment the DLF more - hopefully they take turns dropping deep. 

The back 4 are interesting... at times FB's are positioned wider to give the double pivot more time and space, and the wingers hold the width and then make aggressive runs into the space vacated by the central forwards. 

There are so many nuances to how RdZ's Brighton play that it's hard to 100% nail a replication, even if that were possible!

[yellowforever]

Originally I was using a AM (S) and it did possibly work better, was trialling the AP (S) & AP (A). The link up play between the front two was pretty good, both are two of my best players really. I found an attack role for the AM made it harder for them to link with the two DMs and you can get roasted.

Currently working on an update in my second season that involves the offsetting of the AM/ST which I was originally against as it limited flexibility in movement, but should hopefully stop the two players getting in each other's way, which is compounded by the narrow shape.

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by yellowforever

[Fantasista10]

In my main save with Braga I have been running some variant of a 4-4-2 or 4-2-4 for the past couple seasons and it has now naturally developed into more of a De Zerbi 4-2-3-1. 

 

I’ve certainly taken some inspiration and pointers from others in this thread and also the View from the Touchline recreation. As someone who has followed RDZ since his Sassuolo days, I was keen to get some key principles of his to work: 

- Building out from the back with a 4+2 (or 2+4), with the goalkeeper also involved creating another passing outlet 

- Baiting the press with a slower build up that involves lots of passes (in particular wall passes)

- Two wingers who stay wide and stretch play, with license to cut inside and link up with the front two in the final third 

I feel like the above tactic I’ve been using does these three things very well, and quite effectively in the match engine.

Both fullbacks are told to Sit Narrow to aid build up by playing closer to the centre backs and double pivot. The two BPDs dribble less with the intention of passing into the DMs ahead (who also dribble less) rather than dribbling their way out of the back. We try to bait the press this way, also aided by our Keeper slowing things down. 

I think the Advanced Forward is probably the one role which I could change depending on the player. However I think currently at Brighton, Ferguson is more of a Complete Forward.

I tested this with Brighton too, with great results. It can probably be tweaked further, as I play more games with it but so far it’s incredibly solid defensively and plays some great RDZ football. The Winger on attack is very strong in this tactic. 

[yellowforever]

 

Here's an updated tactic for my second season with Rennes with a few adjustments, most notably trying the 'offset' of the AM and ST. I was initially hesistant as I was concerned it would make the pairing more one dimensional, but going to give it a go. I also 'widened' the width a bit to try and get the two wingers more involved, as well as moving the DLF to attack. This seems to allow the striker to play a solid double role of attacking in behind but also dropping in to link play.

[JoOSTAR]

21 hours ago, Fantasista10 said:

In my main save with Braga I have been running some variant of a 4-4-2 or 4-2-4 for the past couple seasons and it has now naturally developed into more of a De Zerbi 4-2-3-1. 

 

I’ve certainly taken some inspiration and pointers from others in this thread and also the View from the Touchline recreation. As someone who has followed RDZ since his Sassuolo days, I was keen to get some key principles of his to work: 

- Building out from the back with a 4+2 (or 2+4), with the goalkeeper also involved creating another passing outlet 

- Baiting the press with a slower build up that involves lots of passes (in particular wall passes)

- Two wingers who stay wide and stretch play, with license to cut inside and link up with the front two in the final third 

I feel like the above tactic I’ve been using does these three things very well, and quite effectively in the match engine.

Both fullbacks are told to Sit Narrow to aid build up by playing closer to the centre backs and double pivot. The two BPDs dribble less with the intention of passing into the DMs ahead (who also dribble less) rather than dribbling their way out of the back. We try to bait the press this way, also aided by our Keeper slowing things down. 

I think the Advanced Forward is probably the one role which I could change depending on the player. However I think currently at Brighton, Ferguson is more of a Complete Forward.

I tested this with Brighton too, with great results. It can probably be tweaked further, as I play more games with it but so far it’s incredibly solid defensively and plays some great RDZ football. The Winger on attack is very strong in this tactic. 

Did you use any specific player instructions that you didn't mention already?

[Fantasista10]

2 minutes ago, JoOSTAR said:

Did you use any specific player instructions that you didn't mention already?

Off the top of my head just the following: 

IW - Stay Wider, Take More Risks

W - Cross Aim Centre 

Majority of players are also told to Shoot Less (apart from front 4) 

I try and keep PIs to a minimum. For example, Take More Risks I sometimes turn off on my IW if I notice him giving the ball away (I’m often told this in the recent match analysis)

[odee]

what do you think would be the right role for Steele to recreate his play style? i've been thinking that SK(a) + balanced mentality might be better than SK(s).

https://twitter.com/JackFawcett1704/status/1654409455461695488