Roberto de Zerbi - Tactical Attempt and Discussion

[1twoQ]

6 hours ago, Miragepredator said:

traits needed across back 4/mid 2, are tries to play out from back, stops play,dwells on ball(CB's and if possible get it on GK,i used in-game editor only on GK to get these traits) , plays short simple passes and plays 1-2s.

interesting, any time i try 'dwells on ball' they end up playing like absolute ****.

 

do you notice the plays 1-2's having much of an impact? i've been meaning to try it but haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

i did get around to trying 'dictates tempo' on the more mentally strong CB and liked it in theory, but in practice it's hard to tell how much it's actually doing, if anything.

[Miragepredator]

7 hours ago, Irn Rvd said:

I think it’s the same for me to be honest. Pressing is almost non existent against 3 centre backs too which makes it so easy for them to pass over the top, and three centre back systems tend to have to strikers. So that’s not ideal lol

what i do is get the AM to man-mark the opp DM and the IF's to man-mark the wide CB's. Ive always found this to work, and with the BtB being in the midfield role rather then DM, they tend to be involved in the high press. Alternatively against 4-2-3-1,  i get the ST and AM to both man-mark the opp CB's while having close down more on IF's and reducing the team press by 1. Also use Opp instructions where i get the back 4 to play inwards and tight marking on all central players

[Miragepredator]

7 hours ago, 1twoQ said:

do you notice the plays 1-2's having much of an impact? i've been meaning to try it but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Truthfully, idk, i sometimes see 1-2s but only when there is no other option but to. But i still train it. Also i forgot to add, i also train Bring ball out of defence. Against teams with less pressure, i reduce tempo all the way and add dribble more on BPD's.

 

7 hours ago, 1twoQ said:

interesting, any time i try 'dwells on ball' they end up playing like absolute ****.

I try get CB's with min 10 dribbling/passing/vision and technique to have it. It does well for me imo. I wish the game would allow for players genuinely to stop until pressed, They very rarely actually do this but the patterns look similar to irl 

[gokalpcakir1]

This is how I setup. I see that the reason why the roles of Allister and Welbeck appear intertwined on the pass map is that they change places from time to time.

another pass map . Player 19 is my striker but we can see that he's going pretty deep and due to the player switching with my player in the fake forward role, he seems to be positioned in the center like a single striker

a pass map from the 3rd game I played with the system. I hope you get a little closer to the game Zerbi as you adapt to the tactic.

Another pass map from the 4th and final game

Due to the low standards of the players in the team compared to the league, some matches may be locked. And I would like to add that I do not have technical players like Brighton.

Edited August 10, 2023 by gokalpcakir1

[1073034164]

Do you consider rival's formation, strength, CA, and drop style? We can adjust our formation based on the rival's data in order to arrange targeted tactic. I believe this will increase our win rate.

[1twoQ]

Just to drop a quick note:

 

The below image has the pass map from Brighton's 4-1 victory over Wolves, surrounded by the pass maps from the first 8 games of my FM season. You can see in some of them different players (namely the AM or AML) had to drop back a bit more to get the ball but I'm happy with how similar they are to real life. In general Mitoma isn't as far forward as he was in the wolves match (but with how fluid the front 4 are I'm sure if you plotted it over a year he wouldn't always be the furthest forward person) and there isn't enough passing back to the keeper (but i think that's just a general FM thing)

 

 

Spoiler

 

[Lordluap]

Been lurking on this topic.  I've been working on this for 2 in-game seasons now.  I think I've cracked it.  I'm at work so cant post screenshots but will l later.

 

The key I've found to get the way the 2 x CB and 2 x DM pass IRL is to:

• Heavily - HEAVILY - increase Passing, Composure and Decisions attributes on the DM's, CB's and GK
• Add PPM's Dwells on Ball and Stops Play on CB's and GK

I then use a pair of Regista in the DM slots with extra PPM's trained in:

Plays 1-2's, Tries Killer Balls Often, Does NOT move into Channels.

and then 1 of them has Comes Deep to Get Ball and the other has Arrives Late in Opponents Area

 

 

As TI's I use: Positive, Play Through Middle, Play Out of Defence, Work Ball Into Box, Low Crossing, Counter Press, Counter, Slow Pace Down, Distribute to CB's, Distribute to Fullbacks, Short Kicks, Normal Defensive Line, Normal Line of Engagement, Trigger Press More.

 

I find by using Distribute to Fullbacks as well as to CB's, the FB''s stay a little deeper and narrower than normal, allowing greater passing opportunities in Build Up.  

The above really does rely on improving the Passing, Composure and Decisions on the relevant players otherwise it will not work.

 

 

I have lots of PI's and extra PPM's added as well - will add screenshots/details later.

 

 

The attack consists of: IW/a, T/a and IF/a behind a PF's - with the T/a and PF/s offset to the left and right respectively.

 

 

This is the closest I've got the the whole package working.  

[Irn Rvd]

On 23/08/2023 at 09:15, Lordluap said:

Been lurking on this topic.  I've been working on this for 2 in-game seasons now.  I think I've cracked it.  I'm at work so cant post screenshots but will l later.

 

The key I've found to get the way the 2 x CB and 2 x DM pass IRL is to:

• Heavily - HEAVILY - increase Passing, Composure and Decisions attributes on the DM's, CB's and GK
• Add PPM's Dwells on Ball and Stops Play on CB's and GK

I then use a pair of Regista in the DM slots with extra PPM's trained in:

Plays 1-2's, Tries Killer Balls Often, Does NOT move into Channels.

and then 1 of them has Comes Deep to Get Ball and the other has Arrives Late in Opponents Area

 

 

As TI's I use: Positive, Play Through Middle, Play Out of Defence, Work Ball Into Box, Low Crossing, Counter Press, Counter, Slow Pace Down, Distribute to CB's, Distribute to Fullbacks, Short Kicks, Normal Defensive Line, Normal Line of Engagement, Trigger Press More.

 

I find by using Distribute to Fullbacks as well as to CB's, the FB''s stay a little deeper and narrower than normal, allowing greater passing opportunities in Build Up.  

The above really does rely on improving the Passing, Composure and Decisions on the relevant players otherwise it will not work.

 

 

I have lots of PI's and extra PPM's added as well - will add screenshots/details later.

 

 

The attack consists of: IW/a, T/a and IF/a behind a PF's - with the T/a and PF/s offset to the left and right respectively.

 

 

This is the closest I've got the the whole package working.  

This looks very promising. Congrats!! Gotta be right up there with one of the hardest recreations with the current ME. look forward to seeing the rest. 

[Luxifer]

Can anyone send me brigton's tactic file?

[HanziZoloman]

Am 22.8.2023 um 22:13 schrieb 1twoQ:

Just to drop a quick note:

 

The below image has the pass map from Brighton's 4-1 victory over Wolves, surrounded by the pass maps from the first 8 games of my FM season. You can see in some of them different players (namely the AM or AML) had to drop back a bit more to get the ball but I'm happy with how similar they are to real life. In general Mitoma isn't as far forward as he was in the wolves match (but with how fluid the front 4 are I'm sure if you plotted it over a year he wouldn't always be the furthest forward person) and there isn't enough passing back to the keeper (but i think that's just a general FM thing)

 

 

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen

 

Looks fantastic 

[04texag]

On 23/08/2023 at 03:15, Lordluap said:

Been lurking on this topic.  I've been working on this for 2 in-game seasons now.  I think I've cracked it.  I'm at work so cant post screenshots but will l later.

 

The key I've found to get the way the 2 x CB and 2 x DM pass IRL is to:

• Heavily - HEAVILY - increase Passing, Composure and Decisions attributes on the DM's, CB's and GK
• Add PPM's Dwells on Ball and Stops Play on CB's and GK

I then use a pair of Regista in the DM slots with extra PPM's trained in:

Plays 1-2's, Tries Killer Balls Often, Does NOT move into Channels.

and then 1 of them has Comes Deep to Get Ball and the other has Arrives Late in Opponents Area

 

 

As TI's I use: Positive, Play Through Middle, Play Out of Defence, Work Ball Into Box, Low Crossing, Counter Press, Counter, Slow Pace Down, Distribute to CB's, Distribute to Fullbacks, Short Kicks, Normal Defensive Line, Normal Line of Engagement, Trigger Press More.

 

I find by using Distribute to Fullbacks as well as to CB's, the FB''s stay a little deeper and narrower than normal, allowing greater passing opportunities in Build Up.  

The above really does rely on improving the Passing, Composure and Decisions on the relevant players otherwise it will not work.

 

 

I have lots of PI's and extra PPM's added as well - will add screenshots/details later.

 

 

The attack consists of: IW/a, T/a and IF/a behind a PF's - with the T/a and PF/s offset to the left and right respectively.

 

 

This is the closest I've got the the whole package working.  

Post some screenshots? Interested to see.

[Lordluap]

8 hours ago, 04texag said:

Post some screenshots? Interested to see.

Yes, will do ASAP, sorry, busy week and weekend.

[JoOSTAR]

On 29/08/2023 at 10:45, Lordluap said:

Yes, will do ASAP, sorry, busy week and weekend.

Any news?

[Lordluap]

Here is the tactic i use.  

Heavy on PI's and Traits.

[TheMartello]

36 minutes ago, Lordluap said:

Here is the tactic i use.  

Heavy on PI's and Traits.

Which PI´s? 

[Lordluap]

1 hour ago, TheMartello said:

Which PI´s? 

One Regista has Get Further Forward turned off.  Both CD the same.

 

Try to train the following traits:

Dwells on Ball, Stops Play and Stays Back at All Times traits for both CD.

Does not Move into channels, Plays One-Twos, Dicates Tempo. Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble, Stays Back At All Times and Comes Deep to Get Ball to one Regista.

Does not Move into channels, Plays One-Twos, Dicates Tempo. Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble, Tries Killer Balls Often and Arrives Late in Opposition Area to other Regista.

 

It's not infallible nor perfect, but I like it.

 

[Irn Rvd]

On 02/09/2023 at 20:01, Lordluap said:

One Regista has Get Further Forward turned off.  Both CD the same.

 

Try to train the following traits:

Dwells on Ball, Stops Play and Stays Back at All Times traits for both CD.

Does not Move into channels, Plays One-Twos, Dicates Tempo. Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble, Stays Back At All Times and Comes Deep to Get Ball to one Regista.

Does not Move into channels, Plays One-Twos, Dicates Tempo. Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble, Tries Killer Balls Often and Arrives Late in Opposition Area to other Regista.

 

It's not infallible nor perfect, but I like it.

 

What’s the possession numbers like with this one? I really struggle for possession against 4231 away from home for some reason. This is with all tactics not this one specifically. 

[Lordluap]

34 minutes ago, Irn Rvd said:

What’s the possession numbers like with this one? I really struggle for possession against 4231 away from home for some reason. This is with all tactics not this one specifically. 

I was getting between 45% & 65%.  Its not the most accurate in terms of real-life possession numbers perhaps.

 

Centre Backs and Registas really need high attributes in Passing, Composure and Vision as well...

[Lordluap]

I have worked on a base 4-3-3 that morphs to a 2-4-4... utilising a HB as a central DM and the a DLP/D and a CM/A, a pairs a WB/S and a pair of IF/A

Giving excellent possession stats.  Will screengrab later.

[Irn Rvd]

5 hours ago, Lordluap said:

I have worked on a base 4-3-3 that morphs to a 2-4-4... utilising a HB as a central DM and the a DLP/D and a CM/A, a pairs a WB/S and a pair of IF/A

Giving excellent possession stats.  Will screengrab later.

Oof exciting. 
 

You seem like a tactic guru. Don’t suppose you have a peps Barca tactic? 🤣I am shameless. 
 

I tried to get the de zerbi recreation working for so long, then moved peps barca. The possession stats away from home are making me so sad as it just doesn’t make sense to me. I watch the game and I have the ball the whole time then I watch extended highlights and percentage of possession is 50/50 lol. I know it’s me and not the game but sometimes I blame the game to help me sleep at night. 

[Lordluap]

1 hour ago, Irn Rvd said:

Oof exciting. 
 

You seem like a tactic guru. Don’t suppose you have a peps Barca tactic? 🤣I am shameless. 
 

I tried to get the de zerbi recreation working for so long, then moved peps barca. The possession stats away from home are making me so sad as it just doesn’t make sense to me. I watch the game and I have the ball the whole time then I watch extended highlights and percentage of possession is 50/50 lol. I know it’s me and not the game but sometimes I blame the game to help me sleep at night. 

Ha, not a guru.  Played the game a lot and understand the roles, movements etc and how they interact.  Lot's of thought and trial and error as well.

Keeping to the De Zerbi thread... (with a bit of Pep included), try this:  Starts as 4-3-3 but will form the 2-4-4 / 2-4-1-3 / 2-4-2-2 of Brighton.  Train or look for DLF/S and DLP/D to have "Comes Deep to Get Ball" trait.  Add "Stay Wider" PI to the IF/A's and "Sit Narrower" to the WB/S'.  Ask anyone you can to "Cross Less".

My possession and passes completed stats are leading the league.

 

[Irn Rvd]

1 hour ago, Lordluap said:

Ha, not a guru.  Played the game a lot and understand the roles, movements etc and how they interact.  Lot's of thought and trial and error as well.

Keeping to the De Zerbi thread... (with a bit of Pep included), try this:  Starts as 4-3-3 but will form the 2-4-4 / 2-4-1-3 / 2-4-2-2 of Brighton.  Train or look for DLF/S and DLP/D to have "Comes Deep to Get Ball" trait.  Add "Stay Wider" PI to the IF/A's and "Sit Narrower" to the WB/S'.  Ask anyone you can to "Cross Less".

My possession and passes completed stats are leading the league.

 

Lovely. And both cbs on cover? Why dlf instead of false 9?

[AmericanMilanista]

For whatever reason I've found man marking to help in upping my possession numbers.  Following what others have suggested previously with CF and AM marking the opposing CBs, wingers marking the opposing FBs, and FBs marking the opposing wingers.  For me it's been the opposite (in maintaining high possession numbers) where I struggle to man mark 3ATB.  

[Irn Rvd]

On 02/09/2023 at 17:47, Lordluap said:

Here is the tactic i use.  

Heavy on PI's and Traits.

Tested this out and it’s a cracker. Tons of flowing beautiful football. I’m seeing player animations I’ve never seen before. 

[JoOSTAR]

14 minutes ago, Irn Rvd said:

Tested this out and it’s a cracker. Tons of flowing beautiful football. I’m seeing player animations I’ve never seen before. 

You tested it on FM22, or FM23?

[max7jr]

Am 7.9.2023 um 14:18 schrieb JoOSTAR:

You tested it on FM22, or FM23?

this is FM22, i think

[GCVS00]

https://www.rdftactics.com/post/roberto-de-zerbi-new-4-2-4-exciting-build-up-play-fm23-tactics-football-manager-2023

Just saw this post, thoughts?

[odee]

En 13/9/2023 a las 14:14, GCVS00 dijo:

https://www.rdftactics.com/post/roberto-de-zerbi-new-4-2-4-exciting-build-up-play-fm23-tactics-football-manager-2023

Just saw this post, thoughts?

Team instructions seem on point, not so sure about the RCM role

Edited September 15, 2023 by odee

[GCVS00]

16 hours ago, odee said:

Team instructions seem on point, not so sure about the RCM role

agreed. i tested this tactic with a DM-S, telling him to dribble more and that worked really well

[1twoQ]

Looking forward to getting stuck into this again for FM24, all the positional play changes, new roles, Libero (D) etc it'll be a fun time. Hoping we can get the play out from the back/baiting the press a bit better this go around.

[1twoQ]

Okay first update: to establish a baseline if my tactics are helping or hurting I usually sim the first season a few times as an unemployed manager and see how the team does with default manager and their tactics. 

 

To put it simply Brighton is awful. In all 10 sims RDZ was sacked by Christmas at most winning 4 games. Usually in or hovering around the relegation zone. (seems weird but it's a beta after all) 

They usually replace him with someone who plays more counter attacking defensive style and finish around 12 to 15th. Yikes. 

Initial thoughts are that it may be more of a challenge this year to play a high possession type tactic as a perceived weaker team and/or that Brighton's players or RDZ's under the hood attributes need some tweaking. 

Will dive into my season tonight to see what I can come up with. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by 1twoQ

[1twoQ]

Okay, just another quick update - I've taken to testing with City until something changes with the Brighton players or I have access to the editor to change it myself; I can't get anything to work with them as is. 

Messing around with City though I think I'm getting close to getting some pass maps that look pretty good. Two notes -  I'd mirror this tactic for Brighton, pushing up on the right works better with City's defenders, pushing up the left would work better for Brighton's defenders & Usually the AML (Foden - 47 - in this case) is pushed up quite a bit higher but against Liverpool he must have had his hands full defending and having to drop back to get on the ball a lot.

Results vs Liverpool at home:

Spoiler

 

Pass Map: 

Spoiler

 

Before I post this tactic I just want to say that I'm aware it looks absolutely terrible on the tactic screen, and it may be terrible, it could honestly just be a case of City being talented enough to make whatever work. More (lots more) testing will be required but I'm at least seeing some pass maps, positioning and passages of play that I like. 

 

Tactic used:

Spoiler

 

Before anyone asks why the AM is in front of the AP like that - I started with the AM in the AMC slot on the right but the AP filled into the left sided AMC slot way to fast in buildup and transition for my liking. as is when the TF starts dropping back the AM slides over to the right, and once he's done sliding over the AP will move up a bit similarly to how Gross plays. 

I don't love what i get out of the TF on support, if it was anyone other than Haaland it would probably be awful. I'll need to try an AF with plays with back to goal. That combo was the only real striker role I was happy with in this recreation last year.

Edited October 25, 2023 by 1twoQ

[04texag]

3 hours ago, 1twoQ said:

Okay, just another quick update - I've taken to testing with City until something changes with the Brighton players or I have access to the editor to change it myself; I can't get anything to work with them as is. 

Messing around with City though I think I'm getting close to getting some pass maps that look pretty good. Two notes -  I'd mirror this tactic for Brighton, pushing up on the right works better with City's defenders, pushing up the left would work better for Brighton's defenders & Usually the AML (Foden - 47 - in this case) is pushed up quite a bit higher but against Liverpool he must have had his hands full defending and having to drop back to get on the ball a lot.

Results vs Liverpool at home:

  Hide contents

 

Pass Map: 

  Hide contents

 

Before I post this tactic I just want to say that I'm aware it looks absolutely terrible on the tactic screen, and it may be terrible, it could honestly just be a case of City being talented enough to make whatever work. More (lots more) testing will be required but I'm at least seeing some pass maps, positioning and passages of play that I like. 

 

Tactic used:

  Hide contents

 

Before anyone asks why the AM is in front of the AP like that - I started with the AM in the AMC slot on the right but the AP filled into the left sided AMC slot way to fast in buildup and transition for my liking. as is when the TF starts dropping back the AM slides over to the right, and once he's done sliding over the AP will move up a bit similarly to how Gross plays. 

I don't love what i get out of the TF on support, if it was anyone other than Haaland it would probably be awful. I'll need to try an AF with plays with back to goal. That combo was the only real striker role I was happy with in this recreation last year.

Good stuff, but my mind melted when I clicked to reveal that tactic!!

I'll have to test that before I say more, I for one hate when people dog on something you've worked on before actually testing it, but it does look controversial. Nice game results though!

[1twoQ]

6 hours ago, 04texag said:

Good stuff, but my mind melted when I clicked to reveal that tactic!!

Trust me I get it! It's certainly not what i sought out to make, but after watching a lot of games and tweaking when I didn't like where someone was positioned during build up or transitions this is what I ended up with. I feel like I'll end up going back to the drawing board completely at some point but at least for the beta this shape is giving me more or less what I want out of it. 

It's a huge credit to the new match engine that the insane looking tactic ends up with a very regular looking pass map though!

 

I'm still tweaking and testing as I go recently changed the CWB to a FB(s), knocked the tempo down 1 notch and took off counter and I think I'm liking the passages of play more, but we aren't creating as many good chances. 

 

Still need to play with the roles of the front 4 too. I started with my tactic from last year and have largely been focused on getting the back 6 to play and move a bit more like how RDZ has Brighton playing in their last few games. (Though not sure if he really wants them to play that way or if having Gross drop between the CB's and Dunk play almost as a libero is due to injuries and/or the fact that a lot of teams have been pressing them in a diamond shape these last few games more than a slight change in his philosophy) Regardless I'm happy with the back 6, time to tweak the front 4 and see if that has any knock on effects to the rest of the team.

 

Still needs testing with a team that isn't as dominate in their league as City though, because the tactic screen looks so wacky I'm just assuming it wont be good with a team that isn't quite as favored to win the league.

Edited October 25, 2023 by 1twoQ

[1twoQ]

Made a couple small changes, really liking this version a lot more.

I read through @04texag thread on positional play, lots of good stuff in there and I stole the idea of removing play out of defense and lowering the tempo a lot to get a similar controlled build up from the back and I gotta say the building from the back and transitioning to the mid third looks a lot better with this set of instructions. Overall I'm a lot happier with this version of the tactic.

 

Tactic used:

 

Spoiler

In the screen shot it's shown as a cautious mentality, but really anything between cautious and attacking works, allowing for a lot more flexibility in games. 

 

Random Match results (at Luton):

Spoiler

Pass Map from that same game:

Spoiler

 

I'm really happy with the general double box midfield you get from this tactic (2 CD's making a box with the 2 midfielders, and the 2 midfielders making a box with the striker and AM) 

They're not quite perfectly straight boxes like the pass map from Brighton's game against Wolves early in the season seen here:

Spoiler

But they're close enough for my liking considering all the rotating players are doing in my version of the tactic.

Double midfield boxes from the same Luton Game

Spoiler

 

Pass map and avg position with ball just to emphasize just how more fluidity and rotations there are when we're in possession. It's lovely to watch.

(if I was really smart/paying more attention I would have changed the AP from support to attack duty to try and really exploit the gap created by both the striker and AM being pulled so wide and deep to get onto the ball)

The full backs play some great stuff too:

Generally when the ball is on the left side the IFD will push up a tad higher rather than trying to stay in line with the 2 CD's (he is particularly willing to do this with the overlap left instruction on. with an attacking team mentality and that instruction you can get him all the way up to a balanced mentality), and when the AP pushes up the IFD will tuck in a bit more narrow to provide some cover in that area of the pitch (only when the ball is on his side of the pitch) When the ball is on the right side of the pitch the ride sided CD will push up a bit higher and wider to be an option to recycle the possession through and the IFD will slide back into a CD role to maintain the overall shape and provide defensive cover. If you're losing possession more often than you'd like, especially in the middle 3rd of the pitch i'd either change the right sided centerback to a CD or add the Hold Position PI to the right sided centerback to limit how often he's pushing higher and wider and limit gaps forming in your back line while all the parts are moving around.

The FB (S) was chosen over the CWB (s) as he generally looks to get the ball into the midfield a bit more often really helping us use the numerical superiority the double boxes provide in midfield. He will push up a lot more often than the IFD does obviously, and will generally hold the width in the initial build up but will look to stay a tad narrower as we're moving the ball into the middle 3rd of the pitch (stay narrow PI). When the IF ahead of him cuts inside, he'll go back outside to hold the width and will occasionally overlap the IF to keep the opposition back line stretched. Replicating Brighton's fullbacks exactly probably can't be done within the simplicity of the match engine (simple compared to real life anyway where specific triggers to cut inside/outside stay/go can be given) but this is as good as I've been able to get it so far and I'm happy with how they're playing. 

 

As for the front 4 it's still a bit of a work in progress. The wide players aren't getting enough shots to be true to life Brighton, but playing with Haaland is probably influencing that aspect a bit. More testing is required. The Mitoma role is especially troublesome for me this year. Trequartista worked great last year, but seems to drop deep much more frequently this year so he's not leading the line as much as I'd like, but the IF in this setup is getting a lot less shots per game then the Treq on the other side is. Ideally the stats they're putting up for me would be swapped the AML Treq (March's role) is getting a lot more shots and the AMR IF (Mitoma's role) is getting a lot more key passes and assists. IRL it's the opposite, but Mitoma is typically the furthest forward player for Brighton and I've only been able to get that our of the IF this year.

I am really liking how fluid the front 4 are though, occasionally you'll see the striker getting a lot of space out wide and in response the treq really pushes in narrow and they basically swap positions (you can see just how wide Haaland was pulled in that Luton pass map above and that the Treq is much narrower than usual), occasionally the striker and AMC will swap who's leading the line and who's dropping back, sometimes they'll both drop, sometimes they both push on, sometimes only the striker will drop and they'll be in line with each other etc. I'd love to get the AMC/AMR/striker swapping occasionally as well but i think playing the striker offset to the left is preventing that from happening often if at all. If he's not offset to the left though the double box build up shape is completely broken and to me thats more important to replicate De Zerbi than the fluidity/rotations from half the pitch in the final third.

 

As I mentioned above the philosophy, shape and general playstyle stay the same through the mentality ladder:

Spoiler

Cautious:

Spoiler

Balanced:

Spoiler

Positive:

Spoiler

Attacking:

Spoiler

 

Cautious and balanced are probably overall my preferred mentalities. Most of the squad seem to hold the shape I'm looking for better on those two mentalities, but I do like how much more willing the IFD is to push up on the higher mentalities.

 

Still needs testing with sides not as strong as City but I'm very happy with how it's playing so far.

Give this one a go and let me know what you guys think.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by 1twoQ
formatting

[Brian]

Looks like when trying to create the Arsenal midfield box, I accidentally made the Brighton pass map. 

 

Brighton pass map as provided by @1twoQ

 

Arsenal passmap vs Hull City (4-0 win, second season) (FM22 season 26/27)

Edited November 30, 2023 by Brian
Image fix.

[HanziZoloman]

I find it not that hard to create that passing box with good transitions into final third.

I play it from the back but without BPD instead give instructions to pass it short and take less risks (PI) to keep the ball deep and invite pressure. The transition gets along the DM(S) or DLP(S) or VOL(S) who is supported by DM(D) or (S) depending on the other role. Up front it’s like WB(S) to support wide from build up into final third and the attacking four very simple. I‘d like my striker AF to come deep or play with back to goal but it works fine without that. We see a lot of the ball have a slow build up and a lot of space to attack. 

[Irn Rvd]

On 27/10/2023 at 08:11, 1twoQ said:

Made a couple small changes, really liking this version a lot more.

I read through @04texag thread on positional play, lots of good stuff in there and I stole the idea of removing play out of defense and lowering the tempo a lot to get a similar controlled build up from the back and I gotta say the building from the back and transitioning to the mid third looks a lot better with this set of instructions. Overall I'm a lot happier with this version of the tactic.

 

Tactic used:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In the screen shot it's shown as a cautious mentality, but really anything between cautious and attacking works, allowing for a lot more flexibility in games. 

 

Random Match results (at Luton):

  Reveal hidden contents

Pass Map from that same game:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I'm really happy with the general double box midfield you get from this tactic (2 CD's making a box with the 2 midfielders, and the 2 midfielders making a box with the striker and AM) 

They're not quite perfectly straight boxes like the pass map from Brighton's game against Wolves early in the season seen here:

  Reveal hidden contents

But they're close enough for my liking considering all the rotating players are doing in my version of the tactic.

Double midfield boxes from the same Luton Game

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Pass map and avg position with ball just to emphasize just how more fluidity and rotations there are when we're in possession. It's lovely to watch.

(if I was really smart/paying more attention I would have changed the AP from support to attack duty to try and really exploit the gap created by both the striker and AM being pulled so wide and deep to get onto the ball)

The full backs play some great stuff too:

Generally when the ball is on the left side the IFD will push up a tad higher rather than trying to stay in line with the 2 CD's (he is particularly willing to do this with the overlap left instruction on. with an attacking team mentality and that instruction you can get him all the way up to a balanced mentality), and when the AP pushes up the IFD will tuck in a bit more narrow to provide some cover in that area of the pitch (only when the ball is on his side of the pitch) When the ball is on the right side of the pitch the ride sided CD will push up a bit higher and wider to be an option to recycle the possession through and the IFD will slide back into a CD role to maintain the overall shape and provide defensive cover. If you're losing possession more often than you'd like, especially in the middle 3rd of the pitch i'd either change the right sided centerback to a CD or add the Hold Position PI to the right sided centerback to limit how often he's pushing higher and wider and limit gaps forming in your back line while all the parts are moving around.

The FB (S) was chosen over the CWB (s) as he generally looks to get the ball into the midfield a bit more often really helping us use the numerical superiority the double boxes provide in midfield. He will push up a lot more often than the IFD does obviously, and will generally hold the width in the initial build up but will look to stay a tad narrower as we're moving the ball into the middle 3rd of the pitch (stay narrow PI). When the IF ahead of him cuts inside, he'll go back outside to hold the width and will occasionally overlap the IF to keep the opposition back line stretched. Replicating Brighton's fullbacks exactly probably can't be done within the simplicity of the match engine (simple compared to real life anyway where specific triggers to cut inside/outside stay/go can be given) but this is as good as I've been able to get it so far and I'm happy with how they're playing. 

 

As for the front 4 it's still a bit of a work in progress. The wide players aren't getting enough shots to be true to life Brighton, but playing with Haaland is probably influencing that aspect a bit. More testing is required. The Mitoma role is especially troublesome for me this year. Trequartista worked great last year, but seems to drop deep much more frequently this year so he's not leading the line as much as I'd like, but the IF in this setup is getting a lot less shots per game then the Treq on the other side is. Ideally the stats they're putting up for me would be swapped the AML Treq (March's role) is getting a lot more shots and the AMR IF (Mitoma's role) is getting a lot more key passes and assists. IRL it's the opposite, but Mitoma is typically the furthest forward player for Brighton and I've only been able to get that our of the IF this year.

I am really liking how fluid the front 4 are though, occasionally you'll see the striker getting a lot of space out wide and in response the treq really pushes in narrow and they basically swap positions (you can see just how wide Haaland was pulled in that Luton pass map above and that the Treq is much narrower than usual), occasionally the striker and AMC will swap who's leading the line and who's dropping back, sometimes they'll both drop, sometimes they both push on, sometimes only the striker will drop and they'll be in line with each other etc. I'd love to get the AMC/AMR/striker swapping occasionally as well but i think playing the striker offset to the left is preventing that from happening often if at all. If he's not offset to the left though the double box build up shape is completely broken and to me thats more important to replicate De Zerbi than the fluidity/rotations from half the pitch in the final third.

 

As I mentioned above the philosophy, shape and general playstyle stay the same through the mentality ladder:

  Reveal hidden contents

Cautious:

  Reveal hidden contents

Balanced:

  Reveal hidden contents

Positive:

  Reveal hidden contents

Attacking:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Cautious and balanced are probably overall my preferred mentalities. Most of the squad seem to hold the shape I'm looking for better on those two mentalities, but I do like how much more willing the IFD is to push up on the higher mentalities.

 

Still needs testing with sides not as strong as City but I'm very happy with how it's playing so far.

Give this one a go and let me know what you guys think.

 

How did you get on with this? Final product? 
 

I’ve been testing with Brighton and struggling a little bit. I have tried many different variations but the main things I try to recreate is the high possession numbers and beating the press with play through the middle four. 
 

Reslly struggling. About to give up lol. 

[Irn Rvd]

On 27/10/2023 at 08:57, Brian said:

Looks like when trying to create the Arsenal midfield box, I accidentally made the Brighton pass map. 

 

Brighton pass map as provided by @1twoQ

 

Arsenal passmap vs Hull City (4-0 win, second season) (FM22 season 26/27)

What does your tactic look like my friend? 

[Irn Rvd]

On 27/10/2023 at 14:55, HanziZoloman said:

I find it not that hard to create that passing box with good transitions into final third.

I play it from the back but without BPD instead give instructions to pass it short and take less risks (PI) to keep the ball deep and invite pressure. The transition gets along the DM(S) or DLP(S) or VOL(S) who is supported by DM(D) or (S) depending on the other role. Up front it’s like WB(S) to support wide from build up into final third and the attacking four very simple. I‘d like my striker AF to come deep or play with back to goal but it works fine without that. We see a lot of the ball have a slow build up and a lot of space to attack. 

Possession numbers good? 

[1twoQ]

4 hours ago, Irn Rvd said:

How did you get on with this? Final product? 
 

I’ve been testing with Brighton and struggling a little bit. I have tried many different variations but the main things I try to recreate is the high possession numbers and beating the press with play through the middle four. 
 

Reslly struggling. About to give up lol. 

Brighton is truly awful this year. Like I originally said in almost every save RDZ is fired around Christmas with the team around the relegation zone so it's been hard to get something to work with them. 

 

So far I'm still testing but have a few more conventional looking 4231's I've been trying. I've managed to get a 5th and 6th place finish a few times but feel like they were outliers in being good defensively. 

I've had to sacrifice a bit of my philosophy to get something that works, namely I've found it very hard to finish near the top 3 in possession without completely neutering the attack. With anything that works I've been finishing around 55 percent possession. I'll post some updates tonight with what I've been trying with brighton to hopefully get a discussion up and running again. 

[Irn Rvd]

18 minutes ago, 1twoQ said:

Brighton is truly awful this year. Like I originally said in almost every save RDZ is fired around Christmas with the team around the relegation zone so it's been hard to get something to work with them. 

 

So far I'm still testing but have a few more conventional looking 4231's I've been trying. I've managed to get a 5th and 6th place finish a few times but feel like they were outliers in being good defensively. 

I've had to sacrifice a bit of my philosophy to get something that works, namely I've found it very hard to finish near the top 3 in possession without completely neutering the attack. With anything that works I've been finishing around 55 percent possession. I'll post some updates tonight with what I've been trying with brighton to hopefully get a discussion up and running again. 

I’m glad it’s not just me. Look forward to it. 

[1twoQ]

Okay so I injured my hand at work today so I wont type up too much, but here's what I've been using to find decent success:

 

Spoiler

I know the dashed lines between the two CB's is generally a bad sign but I'm putting most of that blame on Steele. He had an expected save percent of 82% vs an actual save percent of 63% - nearly 20% lower. Yuck. 

Pass map I liked the best from recent games:

Spoiler

Absolutely love how deep Ferguson was dropping to make space in this game. Sadly it doesn't happen as much as I would like.  

Much more typical pass map:

 

Spoiler

What I like:

• generally making a 244 type shape in attack that can transition into all the way a 2-1-7 in attack, with lots of variations in between.
• Mitoma and March/Fati (i play them both in the AMR slot regularly) getting plenty of shots 
• Centerbacks completing a lot of passes (the right sided one ended up with the 3rd most passes completed in the league and the left sided one at 16th with 73 and 61 passes completed per 90, respectively)

What I dislike:

• right fullback getting a bit too high and a bit too wide for me
• rpm joining the attack a bit too often (may try to tone it down with PPM's)
• too much play on the flank, not enough in the middle of the pitch
• generally too little possession - usually finishing between 54 and 56% - though some games we can go as high as 60-65% against other premier league teams or even 75-80% in Cup games against much weaker sides
• bottom of the league in OPPDA
  • This one i want to expand on a little - obviously the tactic has the lowest pressing intensity so this should be expected - Asking them to press only when a clear opportunity arises and otherwise just keep a nice compact shape works a lot better as seen here:
  • Spoiler

    

    ( I think it's because Brighton's midfielders and centerbacks really lack in most defensive attributes. Positioning, marking, strength and jumping reach are all lowest in the league and tacking is 2nd lowest - pace, acceleration, and heading are all below average as well) 

     

     

    Spoiler

    

     

     

Overall though i think it's doing a decent enough job, most recently we finished 6th on the xg charts despite actually finishing 11th in the league (again I blame Steel's awful save percentage), but we still made the Champion's League thanks to beating Liverpool 3-2 in the Europa League Final!

Spoiler

Lots of things to keep testing to fully get the playing style, philosophy and end products where I want them to be.

Edited November 30, 2023 by 1twoQ

[w_x]

 this series is worth watching, man knows his stuff

@Jack Sarahs good job

[1twoQ]

5 minutes ago, w_x said:

 this series is worth watching, man knows his stuff

@Jack Sarahs good job

I also highly recommend this series, I've watched every episode and taken a decent bit of ideas from it.

[Brian]

18 hours ago, Irn Rvd said:

What does your tactic look like my friend? 

I somehow found a save file from 2026 in that save. (I moved on to Ajax and was in 2029). But this was the tactic I was using at Arsenal:

[Irn Rvd]

Cheers everyone!! These all look interesting. Not what I was expecting, and I was failing miserably, so that’s a good sign. 

[Jack Sarahs]

1 hour ago, w_x said:

 this series is worth watching, man knows his stuff

@Jack Sarahs good job

 

1 hour ago, 1twoQ said:

I also highly recommend this series, I've watched every episode and taken a decent bit of ideas from it.

Thank you both!

 

Apologies I’ve only just read this thread for the first time some fantastic stuff here. 
 

I won’t be able to comment too much but one thing I’ll say is there’s more than 1 way to do the recreation. So don’t feel like because I’ve done it a certain way, that’s the only way it can be done because that’s not the point of the series at all! 
 

Great win in the Europa League Final I love that! 

[odee]

Baleba playing as a half-back, it's happening. Eager to try this in my save. 

[1twoQ]

Yeah this game was really interesting. Brighton basically played a shape that was at times a 3-1-6, at times a 3-2-5, at times a 3-4-3 and at times their more usual 2-4-4 it was really hard to nail it down to just 1 attacking shape. The only real constants were Baleba dropping back as a Half Back, and Gross playing basically as an Inverted Wingback attack that would overlap at times.

Gilmour's role was a bit harder to pin down, maybe just a DM support, or a DLP support. I went with an AP support in the CM strata because he was basically even with Facundo and more than willing to drop back to get on the ball. He lead the team in total passes and was equaled only by Mitoma for key passes so being a play maker in FM terms makes sense. If I was setting it up based just on this game I'd probably try something like this:

 

Spoiler

both wingers with the PI Cut inside with ball, Mitoma also has get further forward

 

Which lead to a pass map of this:

Spoiler

 

Really nicely lines up with their actual average position from the game:

 

RDZ has been so flexible and creative in his approach this year with all the injuries, new personal and teams approaching playing against them differently.

I think ultimately this is what we as "managers" need to emulate for a true Bright recreation. With the changes to the match engine this year you can be very creative and flexible in your tactics game to game depending on how the opposition is pressing you, how you want to press them, what areas of their defense you think you can exploit etc.

More than ever this year there isn't a set it and forget it tactic to emulate what RDZ's club are doing out there.

Edited December 7, 2023 by 1twoQ