The FM World Cup 2022 in Qatar Tactic Thread

[Johnny Ace]

A thread to chat about anything tactical during the WC 2022

Maybe a team impresses you and you want to recreate the style in FM

Maybe a player impresses, and you want to chat about his role

Maybe even player combinations, certain team instructions, just anything really

[Cleon]

I posted this on Twitter for how I think Ecuador played. The formation transitions into a 424 in attack. The midfield of Ecuador is really interchangeable with the roles too and can easily mix them up.

 

I've done tactics for everyone that I'll be posting on socials throughout the tournament but will post here too. Don't want to post them all in one go though.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Cleon

[The3points]

It think Mendez was an HB, always in between the CBs as they made a 3-3-4 buildup shape

[Cleon]

37 minutes ago, The3points said:

It think Mendez was an HB, always in between the CBs as they made a 3-3-4 buildup shape

It wasn’t that he was a halfback, it’s was more than their centre backs play quite high up, so form a 3 with the DM. Rather than Mendez dropping deep imo. It was also a feature of how they played in qualifying too.

But you could use a HB if you wanted. There are many ways to achieve the same thing.

[The3points]

I'm also curious as to why you chose a 4-3-3 when they defended in a 4-4-2 (and the lineup was presented that way). Was the 4-3-3 a feature in qualifying?

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, The3points said:

I'm also curious as to why you chose a 4-3-3 when they defended in a 4-4-2 (and the lineup was presented that way). Was the 4-3-3 a feature in qualifying?

They usually play 433. They only defend in a 442 during certain phases of play when they lose the ball centrally or are forced inside.

The actual formation they use though is 433 that turns into 424 in attack and a very rigid 442 during certain phases. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Cleon

[Cleon]

Remember these are just a bit of fun to give people a chance of working from a decent base.

Iran will likely set up something like this today and morphing into a 433 when in attack. They don't usually have much play centrally, it usually comes down the wings. The right back, right winger and right sided midfielder often overload the right side of the pitch. They also look to hit direct balls to the striker playing on the shoulder of the defence and hoping he do a bit of magic. It's all about the vertical play for Iran though.

Surprisingly they also like to press high and win the ball back in the oppositions half if they can.

EDIT - Looks like they've gone for something really different today;

Edited November 21, 2022 by Cleon

[Johnny Ace]

Just jotting down on a sticky note at work watching the game  Obviously only the first half. Probably nothing like how it is but would be fun in FM

 

                      CF(A)

IF(S)                                       IW(S)

              BBM(S)     MEZ(S)

                        DLP(S)

WB(S)    CD(D)      CD(D)         FB(S)

                      SK(D)

 

Play out

Shorter passing

Balanced? Maybe push the lines up 

 

Could probably argue on all of those roles. The CD's are bringing the ball out but I'd allow the player traits to take care of that. Rice is looking positive on the ball and making forward passes, I think on Defend he'd be too negative. Both fullbacks aren't looking too attacking but Shaw is getting forward more so than Trippier. Both CM's, not sure of their Player Traits but both looking lively, Rice looks more of the Playmaker. Kane, no idea, he's not done a lot, DLF(A) maybe but he's been out wide a fair bit and he'd be a brilliant CF in FM . Saka staying wide, Sterling sitting in a little more    

[Jack Sarahs]

19 hours ago, Cleon said:

It wasn’t that he was a halfback, it’s was more than their centre backs play quite high up, so form a 3 with the DM. Rather than Mendez dropping deep imo. It was also a feature of how they played in qualifying too.

But you could use a HB if you wanted. There are many ways to achieve the same thing.

This is a great point that I think often gets missed and people start to argue over recreations. You can definitely achieve the same thing in different ways. There's no right/wrong answer, if you're happy with what you're seeing in the match engine then that's all anyone can ask for!

[Rashidi]

Great idea for a thread maybe it will get me fired up for the World Cup. Been a rough few weeks for me, and just not feeling the itch.

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just jotting down on a sticky note at work watching the game  Obviously only the first half. Probably nothing like how it is but would be fun in FM

 

                      CF(A)

IF(S)                                       IW(S)

              BBM(S)     MEZ(S)

                        DLP(S)

WB(S)    CD(D)      CD(D)         FB(S)

                      SK(D)

 

Play out

Shorter passing

Balanced? Maybe push the lines up 

 

Could probably argue on all of those roles. The CD's are bringing the ball out but I'd allow the player traits to take care of that. Rice is looking positive on the ball and making forward passes, I think on Defend he'd be too negative. Both fullbacks aren't looking too attacking but Shaw is getting forward more so than Trippier. Both CM's, not sure of their Player Traits but both looking lively, Rice looks more of the Playmaker. Kane, no idea, he's not done a lot, DLF(A) maybe but he's been out wide a fair bit and he'd be a brilliant CF in FM . Saka staying wide, Sterling sitting in a little more    

Before the game I had them setting up like this;

Looks like it was pretty close to what you was seeing. Kind of tricky with things like this though because at various different stages the midfielders for example, were probably a mixture of all the roles. So is harder to define 

12 minutes ago, Jack Sarahs said:

This is a great point that I think often gets missed and people start to argue over recreations. You can definitely achieve the same thing in different ways. There's no right/wrong answer, if you're happy with what you're seeing in the match engine then that's all anyone can ask for!

If I do a recreation myself, I usually pinpoint a specific phase of play or a specific moment as I think they're much easier to define. But yeah there is so many different ways to achieve things from roles, duties and even shapes. Like the England one, you could easily recreate that from a 4141 as the base and so on.

[Rashidi]

 

The Dutch are notoriously hard to replicate, the main role being De Jong, who usually swaps with a central defender. Then they have the diamond defence and the diamond buildup.

There are definitely a few ways to do this. 

My BPDs will have dribble more, Ake and VVD can bring the ball up and when that happens De Jong slots into defence.  If I am not mistaken De Light has the necessary attributes to slot back in. I also want to capture the vulnerability of the system. In the centre we have the "Bergs" who normally start centrally then push into the halfsspace to support the wingbacks. Blind and Dumfries. I reckon having them as Mezzalas helps, with the mezzala on the left in a higher starting position it will encourage space for the DM to run with ball. Yeah he has dribble more intentionally cos whenever De Jong runs off its time for Dutch hearts to hold their breath. Senegal have shown this is actually a weakness. With the either side of the defenders as  BPD and both potentially being a bit higher in the transition, we will usually see VVD as the last man.  

The keeper is the wrong role. :-) should be a sweeper keeper in keeping with the style of the dutch, but this would be my replication.

Hmm need to change my combination up top If we played a DLF(A) and a PF(S) we could get one dropping deep but keeping central and the other moving wide. And I don't often see the strikers on the shoulder of the last man, dropping deep to help build up play then get into the box.

[Johnny Ace]

33 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Looks like it was pretty close to what you was seeing. Kind of tricky with things like this though because at various different stages the midfielders for example, were probably a mixture of all the roles. So is harder to define 

Not a million miles apart at all, I'm surprised 

2nd half, I wouldn't have a clue then once the subs started being made, I put down my pen, it's not easy at all  

[The3points]

I support Cameroon, here's my preview of them (I didn't get much time to see the qualifiers so this is more Conceicao than Song)

Since then a lot has changed: In defence, Ngadeu has missed out due to a squabble with senior man Nkoulou so the AFCON axis of Onguene (injury), Ngadeu, and Castelleto is down only to the latter. Ebosse or Nkoulou are likely to fit in Ngadeu's role. Fai and Tolo are fairly locked in, providing width and plenty of crosses

The midfield is interesting as there is a debate to go 4-2-4/4-4-2 like we did in early qualifying stages (and the main formation of our history). Anguissa is 100% locked in and if there is a 4-3-3 that means Oum Gouet plays an HB role and drops into defence. This is to the point that the media started getting annoyed we were playing a back 3!

The second in a 2 or the 3rd in a 3 will probably be one of Ntcham, Hongla or Kunde. Generally it is hard to tell what they do as they are all different players, but they all make a 3-2-5 in buildup.

In attack there is an embarrassment of riches. A 4-2-4 means we can play Toko Ekambi, Mbeumo, Aboubakar and Choupo-Moting, while leaving out key attackers in WCQ like Tawamba and Ngameleu.

A 4-3-3 means an aggressive box-crashing Toko Ekambi, Mbeumo who gets involved but also helps the wing, and one of ECM or VA who drops back and then gets in the box.

I mean we won't get many, if any points, but that's the group we're in unfortunately, and it still could be interesting to play.

[Vico Vito Pep]

11 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Hmm need to change my combination up top If we played a DLF(A) and a PF(S) we could get one dropping deep but keeping central and the other moving wide. And I don't often see the strikers on the shoulder of the last man, dropping deep to help build up play then get into the box.

So Gakpo's role in the pass map below was interesting ....seemingly very stealthy. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Vico Vito Pep
uploaded image

[Johnny Ace]

I'm not sure you can replicate Germany in FM, they play a back 4, send Raum forward and Sule tucks in to form a back 3 at times

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'm not sure you can replicate Germany in FM, they play a back 4, send Raum forward and Sule tucks in to form a back 3 at times

Who cares about boring Germany. Would be more interesting to replicate Japan 

[Johnny Ace]

24 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Who cares about boring Germany. Would be more interesting to replicate Japan 

Yeah, after that second half, I don't think anyone will be bothered about Germany 

[cocoadavid]

4 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'm not sure you can replicate Germany in FM, they play a back 4, send Raum forward and Sule tucks in to form a back 3 at times

Most of the time I prefer to set up my back 4 something like this. Of course it is not a perfect replication but I think it is the closest you can get:

Play Sule as a FB on defend or support duty and instruct him to sit narrower. Then instruct your left sided CB to stay wider as a BPD, and instruct your left back to stay wider as a FB or WB on attack duty. It often creates a back 3 in possession, especially if you play fairly narrow/narrow. In my experience this 'false back three' in FM23 can be achieved better than in previous versions.

[Luizinho]

2 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

Most of the time I prefer to set up my back 4 something like this. Of course it is not a perfect replication but I think it is the closest you can get:

Play Sule as a FB on defend or support duty and instruct him to sit narrower. Then instruct your left sided CB to stay wider as a BPD, and instruct your left back to stay wider as a FB or WB on attack duty. It often creates a back 3 in possession, especially if you play fairly narrow/narrow. In my experience this 'false back three' in FM23 can be achieved better than in previous versions.

This is what I've tried using either a FB (D) or IWB (D). It kind of creates it, but unfortunately the back three don't spread evenly and you have this lopsided shape. Ultimately you're too exposed on the left flank...

Hope this is something we can create in future FMs, as it's a really fun way to create an interesting attacking shape. 

[yonko]

11 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Who cares about boring Germany. Would be more interesting to replicate Japan 

Or Spain - "death by thousand passes" 

[Rashidi]

6 hours ago, yonko said:

Or Spain - "death by thousand passes" 

Yeah but their opponents played much lower defensive line and low block, and basically asked to be cut open slowly

[EnigMattic1]

17 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Who cares about boring Germany. Would be more interesting to replicate Japan 

Looks like you may have found your next project 

[04texag]

I tried to do an England recreation after their smashing of Iran. It's hard though, as with the forward attackers, they are way more fluid than the ME allows. For example, Sterling plays like an IW or IF at the AML spot, but many times he would drift in the middle third of the pitch to the right side of Mount whom I assume was the AMC. It's too hard to get all of that variability working right. Otherwise, it was a great tactic to play with. A 4231, that in phases played like a 433 with Rice sitting in the hole and Bellingham exploring high up the pitch, perhaps like a BBM or Mez. 

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, 04texag said:

I tried to do an England recreation after their smashing of Iran. It's hard though, as with the forward attackers, they are way more fluid than the ME allows. For example, Sterling plays like an IW or IF at the AML spot, but many times he would drift in the middle third of the pitch to the right side of Mount whom I assume was the AMC. It's too hard to get all of that variability working right. Otherwise, it was a great tactic to play with. A 4231, that in phases played like a 433 with Rice sitting in the hole and Bellingham exploring high up the pitch, perhaps like a BBM or Mez. 

Post them up pal, there's at least two more games left 

Could always try Roam from Position on a couple of roles, see if that gets any closer  

[yonko]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Yeah but their opponents played much lower defensive line and low block, and basically asked to be cut open slowly

Costa Rica didn't executed it right. Otherwise a low block doesn't leave much room for those cut open passes. At the Euro couples of teams gave Spain hard time this way. However at this tournament Spain have more players capable and willing to open up defenses with some individual play as well. 

[_mxrky]

always find it funny when people complain low blocks don't work on fm. If the the world cup is anything to go by it doesn't work irl either. At least not anymore or without getting pretty lucky

[Lordluap]

Didn't see the game, but understand Tite utilised Inverted Wing Backs for Brazil?  Has anyone analysed this/tried to recreate?

 

[persian77]

3 horas atrás, Lordluap disse:

Didn't see the game, but understand Tite utilised Inverted Wing Backs for Brazil?  Has anyone analysed this/tried to recreate?

 

It depends on the opponent, but it will always be a 3-2-5 or 2-3-5 from a 433 or 4231.
FB-Su -> "sit narrower"
IWs -> "stay wider"

could be something similar to this:

[dazza11]

433? Where’s Neymar in your set up then?!

[persian77]

18 minutos atrás, dazza11 disse:

433? Where’s Neymar in your set up then?!

CM-AT

It is not possible to replicate 100% the positioning in FM, but Tite's 433 can become a 4231 or 424, and defend in 442.
In the construction phase, the RPM (paquetá) goes down and forms a duo with the MD (casemiro), while neymar is more advanced on the ground (CM-AT) forming the asymmetrical 4231.
In place of RPM can be CM-Su, AP-Su/AT, DLP-Su, MEZ. It depends on the player. For example: now that neymar is injured, speculate that he will put the paqueta in place of neymar and fred in the MCD being a DLP-Su if daniel alves plays on the right side, so that that side is not so exposed due to his age and physical condition.

[yonko]

I see Neymar from the AMLC position. 

[Finners]

On 24/11/2022 at 04:44, yonko said:

Or Spain - "death by thousand passes" 

 

On 24/11/2022 at 10:52, Rashidi said:

Yeah but their opponents played much lower defensive line and low block, and basically asked to be cut open slowly

 

They weren't cut open slowly, though, they were cut open extremely quickly.

It's a bit harsh to characterise Spain as death by a thousand passes in the traditional Del Bosque sense. It wasn't passing for the sakes of it, it was passing with purpose. Some exceptional, vertical play. 

I'd be really interested to see anyone successfully recreate how they played in Football Manager and I don't mean drawing up tactics on paper - I mean seeing actual in game footage of them consistently doing it because as much as I love this game, I'm not entirely convinced it's possible. The off the ball movement was so fast and so good from Spain I genuinely don't think you can actually achieve that to that level with the ME. As bad as Costa Rica were, Spain played some of the best pass-and-move football anyone's played since Pep managed Barca.

[Johnny Ace]

A very basic France template for me, based mainly on the first half

 

[_mxrky]

1 minute ago, Johnny Ace said:

A very basic France template for me, based mainly on the first half

 

I don’t think pressed at all tbh

[Johnny Ace]

10 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

I don’t think pressed at all tbh

There was a little bit, but agree, they didn't do a lot of it 

[sonnevillejr]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

A very basic France template for me, based mainly on the first half

 

I think it looked more like something like this imo :

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, sonnevillejr said:

I think it looked more like something like this imo :

Interesting you have the right back on FB(D), he was overlapping Dembele but love it, would be interesting to try it out in game 

[sonnevillejr]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Interesting you have the right back on FB(D), he was overlapping Dembele but love it, would be interesting to try it out in game 

Yes Kounde was often like a 3rd CD, but sometimes he overlapped as well. I use a FBde in my tactic and sometimes he gets high up the pitch when there's an opportunity so you can see this with this role. Of course you could also add the overlap instruction but I don't think Dembele was holding the ball that much

[Johnny Ace]

2 minutes ago, sonnevillejr said:

Yes Kounde was often like a 3rd CD, but sometimes he overlapped as well. I use a FBde in my tactic and sometimes he gets high up the pitch when there's an opportunity so you can see this with this role. Of course you could also add the overlap instruction but I don't think Dembele was holding the ball that much

Yeah, I think FM struggles with that, you want the FB to overlap but not have him on attack or the wide attacker holding up the ball, of course these are just for fun and if you really wanted to use the tactic, you'd have to play it in game and tweak things based on how they play out in game 

[yonko]

11 hours ago, Finners said:

 

 

They weren't cut open slowly, though, they were cut open extremely quickly.

It's a bit harsh to characterise Spain as death by a thousand passes in the traditional Del Bosque sense. It wasn't passing for the sakes of it, it was passing with purpose. Some exceptional, vertical play. 

All passing is with a purpose. There is no passing without purpose. I always laugh when people use terms like "passing for the sake of it" and "passing with a purpose".

2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

A very basic France template for me, based mainly on the first half

 

Dembele was Winger imo. Kounde was FB-S, he will still overlap with the TI ticked. 

[Emozil]

Might give a go at recreating Uruguay. I'm not very good at tactical recreations but I love their play style.

[Bitner]

Em 25/11/2022 em 15:13, persian77 disse:

It depends on the opponent, but it will always be a 3-2-5 or 2-3-5 from a 433 or 4231.
FB-Su -> "sit narrower"
IWs -> "stay wider"

could be something similar to this:

For me Vini Jr. is in an attacking Role, always running at defenders, directly and from the final third.

And Paqueta as a playmaker, for sure, not a Mezzala.

Cheers,
Bitner 

[The3points]

I've made a mesh of different systems work in my Switzerland side: a bit like Spain in 2010. I've gotten to the semis by knocking out Portugal then Germany, now I'll face England

We have 4 clean sheets in 5 games, only goals conceded were in a 2-0 loss to Brazil. Wingers told to roam and sit narrower. Sometimes DM-D becomes BWM-D. This is meant to replicate the tight, midfield congested play that Spain had, while adding some penetration in the form of the wingbacks, who support the midfield while overloading one side.

Spain XI I referenced:

Iker Casillas (c); Sergio Ramos, Gerard Piqué, Carles Puyol, Joan Capdevila, Sergio Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Andrés Iniesta, Xavi, Pedro, David Villa

[w_x]

8 hours ago, The3points said:

I've made a mesh of different systems work in my Switzerland side: a bit like Spain in 2010. I've gotten to the semis by knocking out Portugal then Germany, now I'll face England

We have 4 clean sheets in 5 games, only goals conceded were in a 2-0 loss to Brazil. Wingers told to roam and sit narrower. Sometimes DM-D becomes BWM-D. This is meant to replicate the tight, midfield congested play that Spain had, while adding some penetration in the form of the wingbacks, who support the midfield while overloading one side.

Spain XI I referenced:

Iker Casillas (c); Sergio Ramos, Gerard Piqué, Carles Puyol, Joan Capdevila, Sergio Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Andrés Iniesta, Xavi, Pedro, David Villa

No Xhaka!?

[The3points]

30 minutes ago, w_x said:

No Xhaka!?

Injured in the first game. Screenshot is before the second match. He returned to the side later

[w_x]

Just now, The3points said:

Injured in the first game. Screenshot is before the second match. He returned to the side later

Ah nice

[Jyuan83]

So from the recent matches so far, mbappe seems to play the role of an IF/IW on attack that never tracks back for france. Anyway to replicate that on FM? 

[Johnny Ace]

6 minutes ago, Jyuan83 said:

So from the recent matches so far, mbappe seems to play the role of an IF/IW on attack that never tracks back for france. Anyway to replicate that on FM? 

I did a basic France template earlier on in the tournament, you could take that and tweak it as you deem fit. I did miss off "play out of defence" though 

[Jyuan83]

34 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I did a basic France template earlier on in the tournament, you could take that and tweak it as you deem fit. I did miss off "play out of defence" though 

Ya i saw it👍what i was trying to say is there anyway to get the IF not to track back at all like what mbappe did?