The Ask-SI-Anything Thread

[Adzke]

It is Legend -> Icon -> Favoured. Legend is the best.

Thanks, Neil! Couldn't understand if it had changed!

[samuelawachie]

On FM 2014, when using Opposition Instructions, and you set both Position and Player instructions,.. Which one takes precedence over the other?

PS: FM 14.3

 

 

 

[Pendraz]

Lovely thread, here my questions:

 

1) What do the tighten up and push forward team talks do? I haven't been able to tell, the only thing I can think of, is that they might lower or increase the mentality a tiny little bit.

2) If instead I use "demand more" or "show some passion", do they influence their work rate and closing down?

3) If I have, let's say, a player set as close down much more, and I visually see the green bar already 100% "filled", will that player close down EVEN MORE if I increase also the TI for closing down/use the above mentioned team talk, or there is a maximum limit to how much far a player is willing to go and how much aggressive he will become in order to chase the ball?

4) Any reason why you can train a player with the PPM "switch ball to the other flank" but you don't have a TI/PI to actually ask your player/s to do it on a constant basis? And yes, I know you can ask to "exploit the flanks", but as far as I am aware, they also influence other stuff, I'd simply like to be able to tell specific players to do that, without having to train them specifically for it.

5) Why can't we set a default Man marking based on player and opponent positions, similar to how you can set the Opposition instructions for each position on the field? That way would be applied automatically to every match, and you could cancel them by pressing a single button before each match if in that specific match you wanted to go with zonal marking. Much better than having to set up each single player man marking manually for every match EXCEPT for when you actually don't want to. I am all up for micromanaging everything to the tiniest detail, but I'd like to be able to do it once and then enjoy the fruits of my labor, not going through that tedious process every timed.

6) What's the point of the defensive forward? In my experience, he doesn't help defensively in his own half, and acts more or less as an AM support offensively, until the build up play gives him enough time to position on the edge of the box. The latter would be fine if he actually serve a purpose defensively, but he doesn't, the difference from other support duty strikers with close down much more PI is negligible in my opinion.

7) Why can't we have a TI for "Shoot less" similar to the recently added (in FM16) and very appreciated, option to ask for the team to "dribble less"? I know there is the TI work ball in the box that does that, but same as for the exploit flanks, I might want my team to shoot less often from range, but still not want my team to cross less, for example. And yes I know that I can ask my players to cross more with PIs, but I can still see a noticeable difference in the amount of crosses with work ball in the box. Don't get me wrong, not saying to change that shout, it's a good one, I'd just want an entirely different one.

[number9shirt]

Does anyone know where i can find a European super league instead of the Champions league & Europa, Ideally with a couple of divisions. Something to play alongside domestic league fixtures.

[mdshep]

3 hours ago, Pendraz said:

 

4) Any reason why you can train a player with the PPM "switch ball to the other flank" but you don't have a TI/PI to actually ask your player/s to do it on a constant basis? And yes, I know you can ask to "exploit the flanks", but as far as I am aware, they also influence other stuff, I'd simply like to be able to tell specific players to do that, without having to train them specifically for it.

 

I would love to know the answer to this. I dream of a tactic with a fast switch to other flank but without having to teach a PPM. 

Its a tactic instruction surely I can ask any player to attempt it. 

[luigiluigi]

What triggers how a team talk works?

 

I had saved a game immediately before a CL game to try a few formations out. Loaded it up twice with the exact same instructions to the exact same team and the first time it left 9 players green and happy, and the next  only 3.

[santy001]

27 minutes ago, luigiluigi said:

What triggers how a team talk works?

 

I had saved a game immediately before a CL game to try a few formations out. Loaded it up twice with the exact same instructions to the exact same team and the first time it left 9 players green and happy, and the next  only 3.

FM moved away from the more pre-determined outcome, or rather, fixed outcome for a set of variables quite a while ago (compared to older CM games where if you picked exactly the same side there might be a goal in the 22nd minute scored by the same player in a similar set-up to what you're doing here)

When you start the game all the players attributes get thrown into the box, and it's more likely that with that mixture of attributes there's a range of possible outcomes. It's hard to put it into the right context, but use dicerolls, if after 2 rolls you've got a 3 & 4, you know you've got them which is the point you saved the game at. Your player attributes, and any pre-game influences (press conferences, training etc) are already in the bank. However, the teamtalk is still another dice roll for each individual player based off their attributes, your attributes and so even though all these attributes can lead to a more favourable outcome on the whole there's still a margin for difference so instead of it being a 2 its a 3 this time for 6 of those 9. 

From everything I've seen written about the FM match engine especially, there's never really a scenario with only 1 outcome, so even replaying the same small segment of events within a match engine can have different outcomes. I'll almost certainly be horribly misrepresenting it, but its basically the case of simulating that you can never relive the same moment twice so even if you do save & reload in a game it won't be exactly the same. 

If you were to do thousands of reloads you could probably get an average of what that team talk in that situation is most likely to lead to, but there will always be outliers with a game. Its the things like this that pretty much prove those posts we get every so often accusing the game of being rigged to be untrue.

[luigiluigi]

Good reply  cheers

[Maccabist]

Hello

Is there a differnce in amount of new player generated between a playable country and visible country?

 

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[Pendraz]

Can't let such a useful thread to die out.

Besides I'd love to receive even a single answer out of my 7 questions

[Novem9]

Hello!

Can you explain please how manager's skills are progress? 

My some technique skills (not all) grow up after finishing of coach courses.

But mental keep the same. (however manager's reputation slowly but surely going up)

Especially interested skill for young players - how to progress this one?

Many thanks in advance!

[screwyiimp]

why do players turn down your 5k a week a  2 year contract ( your there hometown team ) but they go to outer mongolia  for £200 a week ? on a 1 year deal? 

[Jimbokav1971]

Why is the allocation of European places to Gibraltarian club teams static, when their coefficient and position within the ranking table are fluid?

[OhHoopedOne]

Why aren't there detailed on and off the ball instructions? You should be allowed to tell your players to double on specific players, for example, if playing against Real Madrid and playing a 4-5-1 you should be able to tell your RCM to help out either the right back or right midfielder when Ronaldo is on the ball and then tell your DM to sweep up behind the RCM.

[Neil Brock]

12 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Why is the allocation of European places to Gibraltarian club teams static, when their coefficient and position within the ranking table are fluid?

Because UEFA are yet to make any kind of announcement on how this will work moving forward. Once we have the information we can look at adding it to the game. 

Thanks. 

[Neil Brock]

On 11/11/2016 at 00:23, screwyiimp said:

why do players turn down your 5k a week a  2 year contract ( your there hometown team ) but they go to outer mongolia  for £200 a week ? on a 1 year deal? 

If you have an example of this occurring in your game please raise it on the bugs forum with a save game from just before the transfer takes place so we can investigate - https://community.sigames.com/forum/517-transfers-contracts-and-scouting-issues/ 

Thanks. 

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Because UEFA are yet to make any kind of announcement on how this will work moving forward. Once we have the information we can look at adding it to the game. 

Thanks. 

Further on this...while that answer's completely fair enough, why was it dynamic in previous years and now static?  Do we now know enough to just leave it static but not enough to make it dynamic, whereas in previous years we just didn't know anything?

[Olly Kenney]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

Further on this...while that answer's completely fair enough, why was it dynamic in previous years and now static?  Do we now know enough to just leave it static but not enough to make it dynamic, whereas in previous years we just didn't know anything?

It being dynamic was incorrect in previous versions.

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, Olly Kenney said:

It being dynamic was incorrect in previous versions.

Fair enough - a good example of a "bug" that isn't so bad then!

[Jimbokav1971]

3 hours ago, Neil Brock said:

Because UEFA are yet to make any kind of announcement on how this will work moving forward. Once we have the information we can look at adding it to the game. 

Thanks. 

 

3 hours ago, Olly Kenney said:

It being dynamic was incorrect in previous versions.

Thanks for the responses guys. 

It might be a rubbish reality, but give me a rubbish reality ahead of rubbish fiction any day. 

Thanks again for the responses. 

[Pendraz]

I am glad for the lads that got their questions answered, but is there any chance to see some of those that were asked previously answered as well?

Thanks a lot.

[doucong]

On 09/11/2016 at 21:45, santy001 said:

FM moved away from the more pre-determined outcome, or rather, fixed outcome for a set of variables quite a while ago (compared to older CM games where if you picked exactly the same side there might be a goal in the 22nd minute scored by the same player in a similar set-up to what you're doing here)

When you start the game all the players attributes get thrown into the box, and it's more likely that with that mixture of attributes there's a range of possible outcomes. It's hard to put it into the right context, but use dicerolls, if after 2 rolls you've got a 3 & 4, you know you've got them which is the point you saved the game at. Your player attributes, and any pre-game influences (press conferences, training etc) are already in the bank. However, the teamtalk is still another dice roll for each individual player based off their attributes, your attributes and so even though all these attributes can lead to a more favourable outcome on the whole there's still a margin for difference so instead of it being a 2 its a 3 this time for 6 of those 9. 

From everything I've seen written about the FM match engine especially, there's never really a scenario with only 1 outcome, so even replaying the same small segment of events within a match engine can have different outcomes. I'll almost certainly be horribly misrepresenting it, but its basically the case of simulating that you can never relive the same moment twice so even if you do save & reload in a game it won't be exactly the same. 

If you were to do thousands of reloads you could probably get an average of what that team talk in that situation is most likely to lead to, but there will always be outliers with a game. Its the things like this that pretty much prove those posts we get every so often accusing the game of being rigged to be untrue.

I am pretty sure that even in FM17 if you make a save just before a match, and reload roughly on average 30-50 times, you will get the exactly same result, say you made a goal on 55 mins and concede one on 80 mins, and if you made a change on 75 mins, the rest of game will change.

[santy001]

3 minutes ago, doucong said:

I am pretty sure that even in FM17 if you make a save just before a match, and reload roughly on average 30-50 times, you will get the exactly same result, say you made a goal on 55 mins and concede one on 80 mins, and if you made a change on 75 mins, the rest of game will change.

I'm confident you won't. If you pick the exact same line-up and exact same team-talk, OI's etc every time without changing a thing you will still get a different set of events in each game. I expect not even the first 10 minutes of the game would be the same. Never mind getting as far as the 55th minute.

[doucong]

20 hours ago, santy001 said:

I'm confident you won't. If you pick the exact same line-up and exact same team-talk, OI's etc every time without changing a thing you will still get a different set of events in each game. I expect not even the first 10 minutes of the game would be the same. Never mind getting as far as the 55th minute.

So how should I prove it to you? Shall I record a video when next time I know exactly what gonna happen? I just did it last week and I am 100% confident I can repeat that, cuz I observe same thing every fm version

[santy001]

53 minutes ago, doucong said:

So how should I prove it to you? Shall I record a video when next time I know exactly what gonna happen? I just did it last week and I am 100% confident I can repeat that, cuz I observe same thing every fm version

- Download OBS.
- Get it set up to record on your HDD. 
- Load a game of FM saved where the next continue takes you into the game.
- Decide on a team talk you will use, OI's you will use etc - stick to these without changing them no matter what.
- Get to the end of the game, hit reload, rinse & repeat.

That's a very easy way to do it. You can point to the exact moment in the footage, or you won't even need to because it will be obvious its repeating itself.

You believing you know a goal is coming from an AI or your own passage of play is meaningless, you didn't know before kick-off that was coming. If its a demonstrable method that anyone can repeat and you can show that ten out of ten times Billy Mcspudd scores a goal in the 8th minute while Dynamic Dave scores an equaliser in the 27th minute then you're going to demonstrate something truly earth-shattering in FM terms.

[forameuss]

21 hours ago, doucong said:

I am pretty sure that even in FM17 if you make a save just before a match, and reload roughly on average 30-50 times, you will get the exactly same result, say you made a goal on 55 mins and concede one on 80 mins, and if you made a change on 75 mins, the rest of game will change.

What are you actually trying to say with this?  That every time you reload, if you save directly before the match, you'll get the exact same result?  If so, then...

39 minutes ago, doucong said:

So how should I prove it to you? Shall I record a video when next time I know exactly what gonna happen? I just did it last week and I am 100% confident I can repeat that, cuz I observe same thing every fm version

Just save yourself the bother and accept that you're talking nonsense.  You can get wildly different results without changing a thing by reloading games.  Like Santy says, if you're seeing an identical match by even the 5th minute, you've hit on a situation with absolutely astronomical - and probably incalculable - odds.

[Neil Brock]

On 11/8/2016 at 19:06, Pendraz said:

Lovely thread, here my questions:

 

1) What do the tighten up and push forward team talks do? I haven't been able to tell, the only thing I can think of, is that they might lower or increase the mentality a tiny little bit.

2) If instead I use "demand more" or "show some passion", do they influence their work rate and closing down?

3) If I have, let's say, a player set as close down much more, and I visually see the green bar already 100% "filled", will that player close down EVEN MORE if I increase also the TI for closing down/use the above mentioned team talk, or there is a maximum limit to how much far a player is willing to go and how much aggressive he will become in order to chase the ball?

4) Any reason why you can train a player with the PPM "switch ball to the other flank" but you don't have a TI/PI to actually ask your player/s to do it on a constant basis? And yes, I know you can ask to "exploit the flanks", but as far as I am aware, they also influence other stuff, I'd simply like to be able to tell specific players to do that, without having to train them specifically for it.

5) Why can't we set a default Man marking based on player and opponent positions, similar to how you can set the Opposition instructions for each position on the field? That way would be applied automatically to every match, and you could cancel them by pressing a single button before each match if in that specific match you wanted to go with zonal marking. Much better than having to set up each single player man marking manually for every match EXCEPT for when you actually don't want to. I am all up for micromanaging everything to the tiniest detail, but I'd like to be able to do it once and then enjoy the fruits of my labor, not going through that tedious process every timed.

6) What's the point of the defensive forward? In my experience, he doesn't help defensively in his own half, and acts more or less as an AM support offensively, until the build up play gives him enough time to position on the edge of the box. The latter would be fine if he actually serve a purpose defensively, but he doesn't, the difference from other support duty strikers with close down much more PI is negligible in my opinion.

7) Why can't we have a TI for "Shoot less" similar to the recently added (in FM16) and very appreciated, option to ask for the team to "dribble less"? I know there is the TI work ball in the box that does that, but same as for the exploit flanks, I might want my team to shoot less often from range, but still not want my team to cross less, for example. And yes I know that I can ask my players to cross more with PIs, but I can still see a noticeable difference in the amount of crosses with work ball in the box. Don't get me wrong, not saying to change that shout, it's a good one, I'd just want an entirely different one.

These are all questions for the match team really, so I'm not in a position to answer them I'm afraid. 

[doucong]

@santy001@forameuss

Check the video below, I made this especially for you santy, use your beloved stock city:

pkm here:

Stoke v Stoke Under 23s 0, 460_fm-6.pkm

Stoke v Stoke Under 23s 0, 460_fm.pkm

What I did:

1. start a new save, plan a friendly and just before I submit my team, save the game.

2. do not give any team talk, straight to the game

3. play a full game, here I am lucky because the first goal is on the 2nd mins, so when I load the game and there is no goal on the 2nd mins, I just reload.

4. reload until the game repeat

 

As you can expect this is quite time consuming, I think I spend more than 2 or maybe 3 hours for just find a repeat game. I am so surprised you guys don't know this before, maybe not many like me like work on some very extreme tests. I use this to test how ME to do with tactics a long time before and for some set up you can expect a repeat about every 5 games.

So from what I observe, with the exactly same tactic set up, team talk, etc. there may be 100 different outcomes once you click match start, but for each of those outcome, the whole story is set if you don't make any change.

It is true before a game start I do not know the result, but there is a number of different result, and I will just get one of them randomly, but the outcome number is definite not infinity.

[Welshace]

41 minutes ago, doucong said:

@santy001@forameuss

Check the video below, I made this especially for you santy, use your beloved stock city:

pkm here:

Stoke v Stoke Under 23s 0, 460_fm-6.pkm

Stoke v Stoke Under 23s 0, 460_fm.pkm

What I did:

1. start a new save, plan a friendly and just before I submit my team, save the game.

2. do not give any team talk, straight to the game

3. play a full game, here I am lucky because the first goal is on the 2nd mins, so when I load the game and there is no goal on the 2nd mins, I just reload.

4. reload until the game repeat

 

As you can expect this is quite time consuming, I think I spend more than 2 or maybe 3 hours for just find a repeat game. I am so surprised you guys don't know this before, maybe not many like me like work on some very extreme tests. I use this to test how ME to do with tactics a long time before and for some set up you can expect a repeat about every 5 games.

So from what I observe, with the exactly same tactic set up, team talk, etc. there may be 100 different outcomes once you click match start, but for each of those outcome, the whole story is set if you don't make any change.

It is true before a game start I do not know the result, but there is a number of different result, and I will just get one of them randomly, but the outcome number is definite not infinity.

 

Completely understand where you are coming from... and even if the above is accurate (not seen it myself)

 

But consider this..  if you could replay real life games like in fm.. and kept all the variables the same.. do you not think you would get the same results as you are seeing here? with the outcome of the game being ultimately similar a lot of the time?

 

The ME and results are based on math...  variables are input and a result is produced.. if all the variables are the same, you should expect the same result each time, barring the random factor that fm produces of course.

[doucong]

Just now, Welshace said:

 

Completely understand where you are coming from...

 

But consider this..  if you could replay real life games like in fm.. and kept all the variables the same.. do you not think you would get the same results as you are seeing here?

 

The ME and results are based on math...  variables are input and a result is produced.. if all the variables are the same, you should expect the same result each time, barring the random factor that fm produces of course.

Yes I have no problem with that. I am just talk to santy and forameuss as they think the game will never be exact again and see an identical game for even 5mins is with incalculable odds.

[santy001]

Well, its something definitely worth flagging with SI. I'm sure they would be very interested in looking at it if there are two games that end up an exact duplicate of one another.

You have largely proven your initial claim false though, it took an awfully long time for you of near instantly being able to reload if the first 2 minutes of a game weren't the same. I don't know how many times you attempted it overall, but if you ended the test each time you got to 2 minutes without a repeat that could be hundreds of efforts in the time span. It seems as though it did indeed take more than the amount you claimed.

To my understanding all the variables are put into the match engine and it generates the outcome from there - with you able to adjust the variables at any time. There was a time (although the most direct memory I have of this was with the xbox original based version of championship manager and it could well have been after SI stopped working with Eidos) when you could pick the same team and every time get the same result if you saved & reloaded before entering the match. You would have had hundreds of examples of this if that were the case. 

It doesn't surprise me that there is a technical limit to how the games can go, but it's not the case the game is scripted or pre-determined. When you have a certain set of variables, there is only a finite number of outcomes. It shows that the situation is not game-able though. You would have to put in an inordinate amount of time testing each change you made before kick-off to get a definitive answer of whether something works or not. You'd have to put hour upon hour in to get to a repeat of your first game to try an in-match test of adjusting something.

Let's say you were losing 1-0 after conceding a 5th minute goal and you were determined to get back to this match to try and put it right. You get to the game where you concede in the 5th minute and know that right now you're probably in the match you lose 1-0. You make a tactical change and lose 3-0. You've now got to go through it all again to get back to that point to try another change. It's an enormous time sink to try and beat the game that way. It's far less probable than you claimed. It would actually be worse if it truly was an infinite number of games generated because that would indicate more randomness than there ought to be for what FM is. 

Ultimately we don't know what the odds are of repeating, but it's not 1 in 30, or 1 in 50. That was what I said I wouldn't expect to repeat. If it took you 2 or 3 hours with reloads coming after hitting the second minute without a repeat its possible you did it hundreds of times. A small database save, depending on hardware, can reload very quickly. You could have been getting in at least 1 sim a minute at best. Probably 1 every 3 minutes at its worst. 

[forameuss]

8 minutes ago, doucong said:

Yes I have no problem with that. I am just talk to santy and forameuss as they think the game will never be exact again and see an identical game for even 5mins is with incalculable odds.

Not really what I said at all, is it?  As Welshace says, what is happening is a result of a mathematical formula.  Given exactly the same inputs, you'll get the same result.  Only you seem to be getting confused by thinking that if you save at the point of clicking go, the inputs will continuously be the same.  Which they're not.  They could well  be, although the chances are very remote.  Not zero, for reasons already stated, but very remote. 

Also notice that you say you're pretty much only checking that a game has a goal in the 2nd minute.  Are you checking that the goal itself is identical?  Otherwise, what are you really proving?  Purely that there was a goal in the 2nd minute of more than one game.   You can get that without the variables being the same.  

And to be honest, if you're looking at things that forensically, a lot of things are going to quickly cease to make any kind of sense worth drawing on.  

[doucong]

17 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Well, its something definitely worth flagging with SI. I'm sure they would be very interested in looking at it if there are two games that end up an exact duplicate of one another.

You have largely proven your initial claim false though, it took an awfully long time for you of near instantly being able to reload if the first 2 minutes of a game weren't the same. I don't know how many times you attempted it overall, but if you ended the test each time you got to 2 minutes without a repeat that could be hundreds of efforts in the time span. It seems as though it did indeed take more than the amount you claimed.

To my understanding all the variables are put into the match engine and it generates the outcome from there - with you able to adjust the variables at any time. There was a time (although the most direct memory I have of this was with the xbox original based version of championship manager and it could well have been after SI stopped working with Eidos) when you could pick the same team and every time get the same result if you saved & reloaded before entering the match. You would have had hundreds of examples of this if that were the case. 

It doesn't surprise me that there is a technical limit to how the games can go, but it's not the case the game is scripted or pre-determined. When you have a certain set of variables, there is only a finite number of outcomes. It shows that the situation is not game-able though. You would have to put in an inordinate amount of time testing each change you made before kick-off to get a definitive answer of whether something works or not. You'd have to put hour upon hour in to get to a repeat of your first game to try an in-match test of adjusting something.

Let's say you were losing 1-0 after conceding a 5th minute goal and you were determined to get back to this match to try and put it right. You get to the game where you concede in the 5th minute and know that right now you're probably in the match you lose 1-0. You make a tactical change and lose 3-0. You've now got to go through it all again to get back to that point to try another change. It's an enormous time sink to try and beat the game that way. It's far less probable than you claimed. It would actually be worse if it truly was an infinite number of games generated because that would indicate more randomness than there ought to be for what FM is. 

It is me proven your initial claim false though, as you said "If you pick the exact same line-up and exact same team-talk, OI's etc every time without changing a thing you will still get a different set of events in each game. I expect not even the first 10 minutes of the game would be the same. Never mind getting as far as the 55th minute."

I do reload many times, as I said I spend about 2 or 3 hours for this, but for sure I not just sit there and reload and reload, I start the game and then watch TV or do something else so I'm not work in a very efficient way as you can imagine the progress is very boring. You cannot just reload after 3mins, you can say after 3mins this game is not the game you want but you need to wait until the game end, otherwise you need quit the game and reopen FM, which may takes more time or at least let me do more actions.

With some set up, like I tested a long time ago, for example all players with very very good moral, you can expect a repeat game quite frequently, and from there you can test the ME, surely not a hundred of hours game. I need to work and don't have the luxury like you that can spend many time on game or forum or player research.

Seems quite hard for you to accept your initial thought was wrong

[doucong]

4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Not really what I said at all, is it?  As Welshace says, what is happening is a result of a mathematical formula.  Given exactly the same inputs, you'll get the same result.  Only you seem to be getting confused by thinking that if you save at the point of clicking go, the inputs will continuously be the same.  Which they're not.  They could well  be, although the chances are very remote.  Not zero, for reasons already stated, but very remote. 

Also notice that you say you're pretty much only checking that a game has a goal in the 2nd minute.  Are you checking that the goal itself is identical?  Otherwise, what are you really proving?  Purely that there was a goal in the 2nd minute of more than one game.   You can get that without the variables being the same.  

And to be honest, if you're looking at things that forensically, a lot of things are going to quickly cease to make any kind of sense worth drawing on.  

"Like Santy says, if you're seeing an identical match by even the 5th minute, you've hit on a situation with absolutely astronomical - and probably incalculable - odds."

Maybe my english is too bad. My understand for what you are saying is you won't expect a repeat game even for 5 mins.

I think I have make my point clear enough, so probably we should move forward and let this other discuss their ask-SI-everything

[santy001]

Not entirely sure what you get at with saying its hard for me to accept. Read the first line. I deliberately kept that line separate and on its own for the clarity. You seem quite comfortable to infer other things about my life, surely you can infer from the first sentence what that means.

I didn't change the meaning, you made a post stating 30-50 times. I cast doubt on that, and in my last post clarified I didn't believe in an infinite number of outcomes because that too would make no sense. For the game to generate an infinite number of outcomes from fixed odds the game would have to be using a random number generator in numerous places not tied in any way to player attributes. It would actually be far better if the game repeated itself a thousand times over, than for the whole game to basically boil down to random chance. It would mean that nothing in the game was by design, whether you win or lose it was never something you were involved in you were just merely pressing continue and hoping for a lucky roll of the dice. 

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, doucong said:

"Like Santy says, if you're seeing an identical match by even the 5th minute, you've hit on a situation with absolutely astronomical - and probably incalculable - odds."

Maybe my english is too bad. My understand for what you are saying is you won't expect a repeat game even for 5 mins.

I think I have make my point clear enough, so probably we should move forward and let this other discuss their ask-SI-everything

No, if I meant that I would have said so.  But fair enough, don't worry about addressing any of the other points, just deflect.  Plus it sounds like you're just treating a goal in the 2nd minute as "the same game".  Which is incredibly simplifying things to suit your point, which you even said - " you can say after 3mins this game is not the game you want ".  Because if it doesn't fit the flimsy argument, just move on until you find something that might.

[doucong]

1 minute ago, santy001 said:

Not entirely sure what you get at with saying its hard for me to accept. Read the first line. I deliberately kept that line separate and on its own for the clarity. You seem quite comfortable to infer other things about my life, surely you can infer from the first sentence what that means.

I didn't change the meaning, you made a post stating 30-50 times. I cast doubt on that, and in my last post clarified I didn't believe in an infinite number of outcomes because that too would make no sense. For the game to generate an infinite number of outcomes from fixed odds the game would have to be using a random number generator in numerous places not tied in any way to player attributes. It would actually be far better if the game repeated itself a thousand times over, than for the whole game to basically boil down to random chance. It would mean that nothing in the game was by design, whether you win or lose it was never something you were involved in you were just merely pressing continue and hoping for a lucky roll of the dice. 

I am not put it personally, I am just trying to say I don't have like hundred of hours today that I can spend on game. And as you are a team researcher, I envy you have time to do it. If you feel offensive I apologise.

[doucong]

3 minutes ago, forameuss said:

No, if I meant that I would have said so.  But fair enough, don't worry about addressing any of the other points, just deflect.  Plus it sounds like you're just treating a goal in the 2nd minute as "the same game".  Which is incredibly simplifying things to suit your point, which you even said - " you can say after 3mins this game is not the game you want ".  Because if it doesn't fit the flimsy argument, just move on until you find something that might.

I am not saying the goal in 2nd min will be the same game, it is because I am just search for that game and I remember the pattern how the goal been made and I see exactly the same thing. I am not entirely sure at that moment so I wait until the 2nd goal in 18mins so I can say it is the repeat game.

maybe different with what you thought, it is the 2nd time I have for a goal in 2nd mins.

[forameuss]

5 minutes ago, doucong said:

I am not saying the goal in 2nd min will be the same game, it is because I am just search for that game and I remember the pattern how the goal been made and I see exactly the same thing. I am not entirely sure at that moment so I wait until the 2nd goal in 18mins so I can say it is the repeat game.

maybe different with what you thought, it is the 2nd time I have for a goal in 2nd mins.

So from my understanding, you're seeing two games, both of which had a goal in the 2nd and 18th minutes.  Then you treat that as the same game.  So nothing else was going to happen in the remaining 72?  You've not really proved anything, other than a mathematical formula will sometimes in rare cases give the same result.

[doucong]

Just now, forameuss said:

So from my understanding, you're seeing two games, both of which had a goal in the 2nd and 18th minutes.  Then you treat that as the same game.  So nothing else was going to happen in the remaining 72?  You've not really proved anything, other than a mathematical formula will sometimes in rare cases give the same result.

Man, if you downloaded that two pkm and watch all that 55mins before I made the substitute, or click at any minute you like see what happened, you will see the same thing,, same run same pass, for sure.

I know it is the same game not only because both have goal in 2min and 18min, but because the goal pattern are same, I mean same position, same pass, same shot and same result. I did not click on time bar in between the highlight  or wait and see if the rest 72min will be same because I did this research a long ago and I know it will be the same. I did not test this time but you can try. I will be hallelujah surprise if it is not. 

[herne79]

@doucong @santy001 @forameuss

I've looked at both those pkms.  On the one hand, they are different - one match is won 4-0, the other 5-0, along with very different post game stats which would indicate very different periods of play.

However, looking at the 4 goals in question, they are exactly the same in both matches.  And when I say exact I mean it - they are scored by the same players at the same timings; the build up play to each goal is the same; all 22 players are positioned the same; even the managers on the touchline and the officials make the same movement.  I've watched all 8 goals side by side and they are identical in every way.

But I will also add that the method used to get this result is completely unrealistic.  Repeatedly playing the same team time and time again with the same inputs to eventually get a similar result (with some identical goals) is of course nothing at all like playing FM how it's meant to be played - ie., playing a different team each match.  @doucong, I'd suggest you stop wasting your time by trying to prove your point in this manner.  If you see identical goals and matches when playing the game normally then please do report that.

All you're doing here is gaming the system, just play the game instead .

[doucong]

5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

@doucong @santy001 @forameuss

I've looked at both those pkms.  On the one hand, they are different - one match is won 4-0, the other 5-0, along with very different post game stats which would indicate very different periods of play.

However, looking at the 4 goals in question, they are exactly the same in both matches.  And when I say exact I mean it - they are scored by the same players at the same timings; the build up play to each goal is the same; all 22 players are positioned the same; even the managers on the touchline and the officials make the same movement.  I've watched all 8 goals side by side and they are identical in every way.

But I will also add that the method used to get this result is completely unrealistic.  Repeatedly playing the same team time and time again with the same inputs to eventually get a similar result (with some identical goals) is of course nothing at all like playing FM how it's meant to be played - ie., playing a different team each match.  @doucong, I'd suggest you stop wasting your time by trying to prove your point in this manner.  If you see identical goals and matches when playing the game normally then please do report that.

I have already proven my point so for sure I won't waste any time on that. I did this a long time ago for testing how each tactic instrument will affect the game. By having two repeat game is will be easier to identify difference.

Surely you will see different scoreline and game stats. Because in the youtube video I have made a substitute in the roughly 55min for the 2nd game, so after the substitute the game completely change. That is one of my point.

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, doucong said:

I have already proven my point so for sure I won't waste any time on that. I did this a long time ago for testing how each tactic instrument will affect the game. By having two repeat game is will be easier to identify difference.

Surely you will see different scoreline and game stats. Because in the youtube video I have made a substitute in the roughly 55min for the 2nd game, so after the substitute the game completely change. That is one of my point.

You've shown that if you play the same match enough times you'll eventually get something similar.  You've also shown that if you play the same match enough times you'll get something totally different in 99% of cases.

But so what?  That's just trying to baulk the system into spewing out something to support a theory.  But that isn't how FM is designed to be played.  Show that if you play FM in the way it's intended to be played and you get the same results in different matches against different opponents, then you'll have a point.

And if you started this by being able to test a tactic, again that has flaws.  Do you want a tactic that can cope with a single opponent playing in a specific way, or a tactic that you are confident will play well against different opponents who play in a variety of ways?  I'm afraid the former will tell you nothing and you'll learn even less.

[doucong]

7 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You've shown that if you play the same match enough times you'll eventually get something similar.  You've also shown that if you play the same match enough times you'll get something totally different in 99% of cases.

But so what?  That's just trying to baulk the system into spewing out something to support a theory.  But that isn't how FM is designed to be played.  Show that if you play FM in the way it's intended to be played and you get the same results in different matches against different opponents, then you'll have a point.

And if you started this by being able to test a tactic, again that has flaws.  Do you want a tactic that can cope with a single opponent playing in a specific way, or a tactic that you are confident will play well against different opponents who play in a variety of ways?  I'm afraid the former will tell you nothing and you'll learn even less.

Yes I never saying it is a problem for ME. I feel perfect ok with this.

I am not sure if it is 99% different, it could be, but I only search for a specfic game with a goal in 2nd minute so I don't need to wait very long to see the goal and tell if it is repeat game, so there could be repeat games in between my reloads. Say maybe there only 10 different outcomes and it is my bad luck to have 100 draw for the one I want. As I said previously based on my test a long time ago, for some set up I can have a repeat game like every 5 games so from there I can do the tactic testing. If it takes 100 games to find one then I can never do it.

Regarding to tactic testing, as I said I do this not for build a perfect tactic but for understand what each tactic instrument will affect the ME, or how they work together, or how different touchline shout will affect the player mood and performance. Some testing will be almost impossible to tell without repeat game, and with repeat games I feel I can see the difference easier, I think you can understand where my point come from. Anyway, right or wrong way to testing, I have get good enough knowledge for myself for understanding tactic change interact with ME by doing this, and I will not do it again.

 

[Svenc]

It is still a viable and genuinely question. I never did that many reloads before though I did to test likewise, though naturally there's also ample reason why certain uploads are always won as soon as they're upped. Even if there is a finite number of ways a match can go, and even if those matches start similarily -- the same team taking the lead. How likely is it that in the supposedly simulated decision making (talked about in the pre-release videos also) every time the same decision would be made, not only on the ball but off the ball likewise? Repeatedly? Not by one player, but all of them involved in the build-up? I know that this isn't how things work from playing (else I would never be able to carve out trends -- or grind out zero zero draws for fun, or not concede a goal past the 75 minutes mark for months). However some shades of bad memories of DOS era management games still remain, with their finite number of "match highlights", even when FM works differently. Even if the human player would never change a thing, AI may react to goals down differently likewise. Put into this:

- possibly different starting line-ups depending on the time of the save (one curious uploaded save had an AI manager on occasion either fielding a physically weak player as makeshift centre back or not, which meant it could be borderline exploited or not depending on the reload).

- PPMs and differently subbed players with such influencing positioning and play

-the aforementioned dynamic decision making of AI managers. Sometimes they may make a switch at HT or any other period of the game, sometimes they might not. Another reload scenario example: in particular when being a goal down at HT, the AI manager would always switch to his attacking formation 4-3-3. If not, he mostly wouldn't.

What does that mean? Also in terms of analyzing matches second by second. Color me intrigued. Where's Paul?

[doucong]

4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

It is still a viable and genuinely question. I never did that many reloads before though I did to test likewise, though naturally there's also ample reason why certain uploads are always won as soon as they're upped. Even if there is a finite number of ways a match can go, and even if those matches start similarily -- the same team taking the lead. How likely is it that in the supposedly simulated decision making (talked about in the pre-release videos also) every time the same decision would be made, not only on the ball but off the ball likewise? Repeatedly? Even if the human player would never change a thing, AI may react to goals down differently likewise. Put into this:

- possibly different starting line-ups depending on the time of the save (one curious uploaded save had an AI manager on occasion either fielding a physically weak player as makeshift centre back or not, which meant it could be borderline exploited or not depending on the reload).

- PPMs and differently subbed players with likewise

-the aforementioned dynamic decision making of AI managers. Sometimes they may make a switch at HT or any other period of the game, sometimes they might not. Another reload scenario example: in particular when being a goal down at HT, the AI manager would always switch to his attacking formation 4-3-3. If not, he mostly wouldn't.

What does that mean? Color me intrigued. Where's Paul?

Regarding to the question you raise: if the AI a goal down at HT, will he always do the same in 2nd half?

From what I observe, if it is a repeat game, then both half will be set so you can expect exactly same result if you do nothing change (or exactly same change). It is like after you click the match start the whole story is been written.

[Svenc]

 

1 minute ago, doucong said:

Regarding to the question you raise: if the AI a goal down at HT, will he always do the same in 2nd half?

From what I observe, if it is a repeat game, then both half will be set so you can expect exactly same result if you do nothing change (or exactly same change). It is like after you click the match start the whole story is been written.

Yeah, the game calculates/simulates beforehand at least until HT, this has always been done to know where the highlights should kick in. As such, every possible AI changes are in likewise. However, as Herne too found, those aren't exactly the same matches. It is just periods of play that would be second by second the same (which already is curious). From your observations, the AI managers would do the exact same on each of those.... mirror matches?

[Neil Brock]

This thread has gone off the main topic, so I'd suggest if you want to continue the discussion about the reload test it'd probably be worth doing so in a different thread. Thanks. 

[champmanlegend]

What happened to playing and enjoying the game!

All these multiple reloads and deep analysis of the underlying elements of the game seems extremely draining 

[doucong]

1 minute ago, Svenc said:

 

Yeah, the game calculates/simulates beforehand at least until HT, this has always been done to know where the highlights should kick in. As such, every possible AI changes are in likewise. However, as Herne too found, those aren't exactly the same matches. It is just periods of play that would be second by second the same (which already is curious). From your observations, the AI managers would do the exact same on each of those.... mirror matches?

The game is exactly the same. What henre found aren't exactly the same is because in the 2nd game, I made a substitute in 2nd half so the game after that time point will be different. If I do not made that substitute and do nothing until the game finish, it will be a mirror game