Opposition scored 3 goals in 10 mins after they got player sent off

[Macha]

The score was 2-2, they got a player sent off in 78mins and scored 3 goals in 10 mins. I'm not even sure whether this happens IRL. Too much?

Have anyone seen worse?

[LHurlz]

Whenever I'm playing against a team that gets a red card they always end up dominating the match from that point. Lost/drawn to 10 men many times after being 2/3-0 ahead.

[Dagenham_Dave]

The score was 2-2, they got a player sent off in 78mins and scored 3 goals in 10 mins. I'm not even sure whether this happens IRL. Too much?

Have anyone seen worse?

Very rarely happens in real life, but then this is because the manager of the team with eleven men is smart enough to make the necessary changes.

That said, it's unlikely that in real life the team with ten men would push that much forward, particularly with 12 mins left. Ordinarily, they'd pull players back and try and hold on for the draw. However, if you're bombing forward leaving gaps, that'll be exploited. The AI's not really clever enough to play it exactly how it would run most of the time in real life.

[Macha]

Actually, it was the semi final of Euro Cup, and I was leading aggregate 3-2 when the score was at 2-2, hence there were no need for me to go for the attack. I think it is the magic button "Take More Risks", as I've used it a few times to score some equalizer. I did use it however, when the score was 4-2, then they scored again.

[ScotchWhisky]

I don't care what tactics you use. A team with 10 men should not be able to score three goals in 12 minutes. Has it happened in real life before? With 10s of thousands of matches played, probably somewhere, sometime. Should it happen? Not at all. I've noticed this in older versions as well. If I am dominating a team and they get a red card, I can almost never score more than one more goal. Often times no more. Doesn't seem to matter what tactics I switch to.

[HUNT3R]

I don't care what tactics you use. A team with 10 men should not be able to score three goals in 12 minutes. Has it happened in real life before? With 10s of thousands of matches played, probably somewhere, sometime. Should it happen? Not at all. I've noticed this in older versions as well. If I am dominating a team and they get a red card, I can almost never score more than one more goal. Often times no more. Doesn't seem to matter what tactics I switch to.

Why shouldn't they? Did the other 10 men lose their ability to play football? We can easily dominate a team with only 10 men. People don't like to hear it, but if you're not able to, that's something you need to improve.

[Dunnyball]

It's not uncommon for a red card to galvanise a team and subsequently make them even harder to beat because each player is inspired to work twice as hard as they probably would have had they stayed with 11 on the pitch. Granted conceding 3 was unfortunate. What tactical changes did you make when the red card happened??

[ScotchWhisky]

Why shouldn't they? Did the other 10 men lose their ability to play football? We can easily dominate a team with only 10 men. People don't like to hear it, but if you're not able to, that's something you need to improve.

Of course 10 men can be motivated to play harder and of course they don't lose their ability to play. But the fact is, if the teams are anywhere near equally matched (which I assume in this case they were due to the aggregate score), then 11 players should almost always be able to outplay 10 with the occasional goal scored by the 10 on great plays. Three in 12 minutes? Yeah right. Especially if he switched his tactics to defensive/counter and retain possession (which is probably what I would do if tied in game and leading by a single goal on aggregate).

[HUNT3R]

Of course 10 men can be motivated to play harder and of course they don't lose their ability to play. But the fact is, if the teams are anywhere near equally matched (which I assume in this case they were due to the aggregate score), then 11 players should almost always be able to outplay 10 with the occasional goal scored by the 10 on great plays. Three in 12 minutes? Yeah right. Especially if he switched his tactics to defensive/counter and retain possession (which is probably what I would do if tied in game and leading by a single goal on aggregate).

Like I said, you can easily dominate against 10 men. The fact that he didn't points at something he did VERY wrong.

[ScotchWhisky]

Like I said, you can easily dominate against 10 men. The fact that he didn't points at something he did VERY wrong.

I am no expert at football for sure. I won't deny that for a second. But I've tried numerous different tactical changes in prior versions against 10 men and almost never dominated them from then on out.

[MrPompey]

it doesn't happen irl?? - England v Brazil

[HUNT3R]

I am no expert at football for sure. I won't deny that for a second. But I've tried numerous different tactical changes in prior versions against 10 men and almost never dominated them from then on out.

Then surely you need to ask for advice in the tactics forum instead of blaming the game?

[ScotchWhisky]

Then surely you need to ask for advice in the tactics forum instead of blaming the game?

It always comes back to this, doesn't it? Never the games fault. The ME is 100% perfect and Thou shalt not question by Match Engine! Look, you are right, better tactics will help in this case. *But*, it should be easier to dominate a team down a man than a team that is not down a man. And NEVER in professional soccer should a team concede three goals with 12 minutes to go after the opposition had a man sent off. Again, it probably has happened at some point (I'd love for anyone to find an example, at a professional level, within the past 20 years), but it is one of those things that shouldn't happen. You should be able to play overload, men forward, pump the ball into the box, four forwards, three midfielders, and three defenders, take more risks, and still not give up three goals in 12 minutes when up a man.

[HUNT3R]

It always comes back to this, doesn't it? Never the games fault. The ME is 100% perfect and Thou shalt not question by Match Engine! Look, you are right, better tactics will help in this case. *But*, it should be easier to dominate a team down a man than a team that is not down a man. And NEVER in professional soccer should a team concede three goals with 12 minutes to go after the opposition had a man sent off. Again, it probably has happened at some point (I'd love for anyone to find an example, at a professional level, within the past 20 years), but it is one of those things that shouldn't happen. You should be able to play overload, men forward, pump the ball into the box, four forwards, three midfielders, and three defenders, take more risks, and still not give up three goals in 12 minutes when up a man.

It is easy to dominate! That's what I've been saying!

This is going in circles. Good luck to you if you think Overload, that formation and TIs will work without massively risking giving away goals. I'm out.

[Macha]

Ah, I woke up and such interesting conversation happened

Anyway, I was using 4-3-3 with DM and 2 wingers. I've been playing CM since 1993, and continued with FM when it was release. I know a thing or two about football.

My question here is not only on this 3 goals in 12 minutes. Perhaps it is unfortunate.

HOWEVER, when opposition got a player sent off, how many of you felt like oh no, they're going to get power up.....what do I do now??? Did many of you experience this often? I did, not only on FM15, but since FM10 if I remember correctly.

Does not seem to happen when my team got a player sent off.

If it does not happen to many other players, then it is my fault for not understanding the game enough. But if it does happen to a lot of other players, then something is wrong. I got to the point when I felt "Please ref!! Don't sent him off!!" and it is not my player!

[crossbarchallenger]

It always comes back to this, doesn't it? Never the games fault. The ME is 100% perfect and Thou shalt not question by Match Engine! Look, you are right, better tactics will help in this case. *But*, it should be easier to dominate a team down a man than a team that is not down a man. And NEVER in professional soccer should a team concede three goals with 12 minutes to go after the opposition had a man sent off. Again, it probably has happened at some point (I'd love for anyone to find an example, at a professional level, within the past 20 years), but it is one of those things that shouldn't happen. You should be able to play overload, men forward, pump the ball into the box, four forwards, three midfielders, and three defenders, take more risks, and still not give up three goals in 12 minutes when up a man.

I can't tell if this guy is serious... All you need to do is search for a list of top ten comebacks and I guarantee that anyone who watches enough football will remember some of them, especially the ones against ten men. It's posts like this that are not only unconstructive, but downright ignorant. This is football, not the NBA where you can start cherry-picking back-door or hitting transition threes.

To answer the OP, I've had a lot of success using the Play Wider TI when having a numerical advantage. It's what teams do to stretch the opposition and create more space. It's especially helpful if your squad is fitter, which means you can play at a higher tempo as well.

[ScotchWhisky]

I can't tell if this guy is serious... All you need to do is search for a list of top ten comebacks and I guarantee that anyone who watches enough football will remember some of them, especially the ones against ten men. It's posts like this that are not only unconstructive, but downright ignorant. This is football, not the NBA where you can start cherry-picking back-door or hitting transition threes.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1966953-15-greatest-european-football-comebacks-of-all-time

That is the best I can find and none of them mention being down to 10 men. Since it's so easy to find such data, then please send me a link.

[gavo01]

Since it's so easy to find such data, then please send me a link.

Sorry but that is an offer I couldn't refuse whilst sat in front of my PC all day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2306995/Greatest-football-comebacks-Liverpool-Istanbul-Man-United-Nou-Camp--Dortmunds-heroics-sit.html

Check out the Spurs v Man City game report. City are 0-3 down at HT, Joey Barton sent off and yet they still managed to win 4-3.

Mines a pint thanks.

[brawla123]

You can still win if you get players sent off!

[macca72]

Just keep the ball. That's what I try and do, slow the game down and pull the opposition around chasing the ball.

Retain Possession

Lower Tempo

Lower D/L (as they'll more than likely be going more direct / long ball)

Get a DM in place to cover between the lines

Lower mentality (Standard maybe, not too low to invite pressure though)

The other way of looking at it is think what you would do if you had a man sent off and needed to get back in the game (attack / direct / high tempo / closing down OR counter, as you're expecting the team with 11 players to attack you).

In summary, kill the game, nothing to be gained by risk in this situation.

[Paolo di Canio]

I don't care what tactics you use. A team with 10 men should not be able to score three goals in 12 minutes. Has it happened in real life before? With 10s of thousands of matches played, probably somewhere, sometime. Should it happen? Not at all. I've noticed this in older versions as well. If I am dominating a team and they get a red card, I can almost never score more than one more goal. Often times no more. Doesn't seem to matter what tactics I switch to.

I remember Lazio vs Udinese, Lazio had got a player sent off and were losing 1-2 till the 82nd minute, match ended 3-2. things like this can happen.

[Some Guy!]

The score was 2-2, they got a player sent off in 78mins and scored 3 goals in 10 mins. I'm not even sure whether this happens IRL. Too much?

Have anyone seen worse?

There was this one time I recall a team dominating the entire match, a player in on goal, brought down and red. Scores still 0-0. From then on out it gets even more one sided. Of course the team with 10 men score with their first shot on target in the dying seconds to win it and promotion to the Premier League. Derby 0-1 QPR, 2014 Championship Playoff Final

I recall another time, a close match, 1 - 0 to the home side, only for them to lose a player to a red. Go on to score 3 in quick succession and lead 4-0. Brisbane Roar 4 - 0 Adelaide United, Round 14 of the 2010-11 A-league Regular Season

I recall another match as well, my side lost it's keeper to a red in the opening minute, penalty given and converted, away from home. Played the whole match with 10 men, essentially starting a goal down. Won 2-1 of course, away to their fiercest rivals no less. Forest 1 - 2 Derby, 2011-12 Championship

Damn it SI, why can't you stop these things happening in real life?!

[Kriss]

Sorry but that is an offer I couldn't refuse whilst sat in front of my PC all day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2306995/Greatest-football-comebacks-Liverpool-Istanbul-Man-United-Nou-Camp--Dortmunds-heroics-sit.html

Check out the Spurs v Man City game report. City are 0-3 down at HT, Joey Barton sent off and yet they still managed to win 4-3.

Mines a pint thanks.

A real touche moment

[Macha]

The question was whether this happen in real life, and as you guys have answered, it does happen, though extremely rare that you could do an article on it. I suppose that if it was our team who scored the three goals, it would be a glorious victory (I wonder when will that happen). Some suggestions on how to deal with sending off is also good, though who would have thought the team with an extra man has to think more.

In the end, if we see such situation again when we played, we will remember back this thread. It does happen in real life, so it is not the ME problem, and learn how deal with the extra 1 man situation

[cris182]

The question was whether this happen in real life, and as you guys have answered, it does happen, though extremely rare that you could do an article on it. I suppose that if it was our team who scored the three goals, it would be a glorious victory (I wonder when will that happen). Some suggestions on how to deal with sending off is also good, though who would have thought the team with an extra man has to think more.

In the end, if we see such situation again when we played, we will remember back this thread. It does happen in real life, so it is not the ME problem, and learn how deal with the extra 1 man situation

Most people surely, Because the other team have to adjust to having ten men, So you have to adjust to their changes to counteract that

[benallen002]

Just one minor note to those that think there is no chance it could be an ME error:

What is always one of the first features announced every year and with every update...? An improved ME. So SI themselves concede the fact that the ME has flaws and will always have flaws: some known, some (as yet) unknown.

So it would stand to reason that there is always something to fix with the ME. Which makes it impossible to sort out things like this being something inherently wrong with the ME that will be fixed in FM XX, or the ME functioned properly and the user was disappointed with an outcome with roughly a 0.13% chance of happening (if you concede it happens once a season in a typical domestic league).

You simply cannot say either way.

Take the latest patch notes at the top of this forum as an example: the very first one is "Tweaked some defensive play". How do you count that out as NOT being a factor in why the OP lost this game?

[Dunnyball]

I'm playing Munich in the champions league and go 1-0 up and they go down to 10 men yet by half time they are winning 2-1 and have most of the possession.

Sort out the match engine SI, it's definitely bugged.....

[themadsheep2001]

I'm playing Munich in the champions league and go 1-0 up and they go down to 10 men yet by half time they are winning 2-1 and have most of the possession.

Sort out the match engine SI, it's definitely bugged.....

Haha indeed.

But seriously, Bayern are the best example of using tactical shifts and player movement to cope with losing a man.

[Smurf]

Well I just had a player sent off in the 14 minute.

I'm now winning 3 - 0.

You don't hear me complaining.

Sorry 4 - 0

[Smurf]

Sorry - 10 men and winning 5-0

[Smurf]

Ah - 10 men - 7-0

[themadsheep2001]

Ah - 10 men - 7-0

I would be interested to hear what you did at 10 men. I personally drop the striker into the AMC slot and give him the Shadow striker role

[Smurf]

Won it 10-1 in the end, with ten men.

I play a 4-1-3-2

When the AMR was sent off I moved the AMC to the right midfield

Gave me a

4 1 2 2

DL DC DC DR

MC

AMR AML

ST ST

[Smurf]

By the way it's Sevilla vs Athletic

[themadsheep2001]

By the way it's Sevilla vs Athletic

Could you upload the PKM? Suprised they didnt overload your MC

[Smurf]

It's the year 2031 my team are awesome.

PKM won't help

1) My team is superior

2) A pure fluke all players played out of their skin

3) It will probably never happen again

If I replayed the game I could lose. Just one of those games, my players played well, theres didn't.

It happens every now and then.

[themadsheep2001]

It's the year 2031 my team are awesome.

PKM won't help

1) My team is superior

2) A pure fluke all players played out of their skin

3) It will probably never happen again

If I replayed the game I could lose. Just one of those games, my players played well, theres didn't.

It happens every now and then.

PKMs are always helpful. Still worth uploading

[Dunnyball]

Ok I might have over reacted. I got the players to regroup at half time and we've gone out and played like a different team in the second half. 3-2 to us ?

[ScotchWhisky]

I remember Lazio vs Udinese, Lazio had got a player sent off and were losing 1-2 till the 82nd minute, match ended 3-2. things like this can happen.

Still not three goals in 12.

Sorry but that is an offer I couldn't refuse whilst sat in front of my PC all day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2306995/Greatest-football-comebacks-Liverpool-Istanbul-Man-United-Nou-Camp--Dortmunds-heroics-sit.html

Check out the Spurs v Man City game report. City are 0-3 down at HT, Joey Barton sent off and yet they still managed to win 4-3.

Mines a pint thanks.

Alright, so you found one example that occurred 10 years ago after thousands of matches have been played. Of course, that report also says it took them 35 minutes to score those three goals and the fourth during stoppage time. Again, that's still not three goals in 12 minutes. You have to consider what are the odds it is going to happen at some point during a season to begin with. Second, you have to consider what are the odds it involves the team you are managing? I'd have rather bought a lottery ticket that day...

[Puni]

Still not three goals in 12.

Alright, so you found one example that occurred 10 years ago after thousands of matches have been played. Of course, that report also says it took them 35 minutes to score those three goals and the fourth during stoppage time. Again, that's still not three goals in 12 minutes. You have to consider what are the odds it is going to happen at some point during a season to begin with. Second, you have to consider what are the odds it involves the team you are managing? I'd have rather bought a lottery ticket that day...

Did you ever consider that the OP's game might have been that one in ten thousand? Unless you see this happening ingame every two weeks, I very much doubt there is an issue here.

[Dunnyball]

Lad you never outlined how you reacted tactically once the opposition went down to 10 men

[Svenc]

It could be

play overload, men forward, pump the ball into the box, four forwards, three midfielders, and three defenders, take more risks,

(This is a horrible comment -- down to ten men doesn't mean a team will lose all its shape and have gaping holes all over to exploit. Going from a classic 4-4-2, for instance, typically two banks of four when defending still remain that could easily mop up any of the gung-ho attempts and a forward also remains as an outlet for ball retention high up the pitch and counter opportunity as well. This typically happens in FM also for AI teams being down to ten. E.g. with elven against ten, this isn't exploiting the man advantage, it's actually proactively negating it by turning the ball into the hands of the opposition time and time over rather than making it suffer for being a man less. It's about just as much of a simple numbers game rather than outplaying an opponent as it is against eleven: "Everybody get forward and hoof the ball into the box, we'll score in no time.")

But then it could have been one of these days (like soft shots from three corners or throw ins going in). Without knowing, it's futile to discuss, really.

[ScotchWhisky]

It could be

(This is a horrible comment -- down to ten men doesn't mean a team will lose all its shape and have gaping holes all over to exploit. Going from a classic 4-4-2, for instance, typically two banks of four when defending still remain that could easily mop up any of the gung-ho attempts and a forward also remains as an outlet for ball retention high up the pitch and counter opportunity as well. This typically happens in FM also for AI teams being down to ten. E.g. with elven against ten, this isn't exploiting the man advantage, it's actually proactively negating it by turning the ball into the hands of the opposition time and time over rather than making it suffer for being a man less. It's about just as much of a simple numbers game rather than outplaying an opponent as it is against eleven: "Everybody get forward and hoof the ball into the box, we'll score in no time.")

But then it could have been one of these days (like soft shots from three corners or throw ins going in). Without knowing, it's futile to discuss, really.

I think you misunderstood my comment. I was saying that you should essentially be able to do that and still NOT give up three goals in 12 minutes. I did not say you should do that. I did not say I have ever done that. I did not say I would ever do that (unless down by a goal with a couple minutes to go). I did not say any serious player ever would or should do that. What I was saying is no matter how bad you mess up the tactics, and I tried to present one of the worst possible things you could do, that should really almost never happen. Obviously tactics matter, but they should be more forgiving when the opposition is down to 10 men.

[ScotchWhisky]

So what your saying is that even though "REALISTICALLY" there is always a chance this could happen (no matter how small that chance could be)l, there should be 0% chance of it happening in FM. That makes tons of sense! :confused:

Odds are odds and no matter how much you may hate odds, there's always an odd chance that something out of the ordinary might happen! Deal with it

If there is a one in a billion chance something happens, then no, it should never happen. If it's one in 100,000, then it should almost never happen. I highly doubt he is the only one it has happened to. Most people who own the game have probably never set eyes on these forums.

[crossbarchallenger]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1966953-15-greatest-european-football-comebacks-of-all-time

That is the best I can find and none of them mention being down to 10 men. Since it's so easy to find such data, then please send me a link.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/feb/11/the-question-teams-better-10-men

http://www.theoriginalcoach.com/#!a-guide-to-winning-with-ten-men/c23o7

Boom. Watch more football.

EDIT: Add to this that there are many, many leagues around the world and most of them are probably more competitive - on a match-by-match basis - than you would believe. This is why I only place bets on sports other than football. Anything can happen and that's why it's the beautiful game!

[ScotchWhisky]

I tell you what, play the game for 20 seasons and come back to me if you manage to replicate that 3 goals in 12 minutes more than once whilst the opposition has had a man sent off (without intentionally trying to sabotage the match).

Also, get a dictionary and look up the word "Chance", you might learn a thing or two

What are the chances of being struck by lightning?

Well the odds are probably against it, but it can happen.

What are the chances of being struck by lighting twice?

Probably unthinkable, but it's happened!

I am well aware of what the word means. And yes, I said it *could* happen. That doesn't mean it should happen. And in fact, no one yet has brought up a real life example of three goals being a man down in 12 minutes. Not one. It's theoretically possible, and therefore a chance, that a goal could be scored every other minute in the game resulting in a match that is 45-0. So if that happened should I just say "well, there was a chance it could happen so it's not the ME that's broken. It was just shear dumb luck!"?

As for the idea of playing 20 seasons. That isn't what this is based on. It would require numerous matches of actually having a player sent off with that little bit of time remaining. I'd be lucky to have a man sent off near that time three or four times over the 20 seasons. I remember in FM '09, I hated the final 10 minutes. Seemed no matter what tactic I deployed, if I was leading or tied with a superior team, I knew they would often score two goals in a row just so I'd lose. Does that happen in real life? Yes, it happens a lot. Was the frequency unrealistic? I certainly think it was (as a note, I do not remember this being an issue in FM '13).

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/feb/11/the-question-teams-better-10-men

http://www.theoriginalcoach.com/#!a-guide-to-winning-with-ten-men/c23o7

Boom. Watch more football.

EDIT: Add to this that there are many, many leagues around the world and most of them are probably more competitive - on a match-by-match basis - than you would believe. This is why I only place bets on sports other than football. Anything can happen and that's why it's the beautiful game!

Second of all, your first link proves nothing. The best it has is the Chelsea vs. West Ham match. But in that case, the player was sent off after only 17 minutes. That's a lot of time for a club to score four goals even being down a man. The article even states that the reason being down a man isn't as big of an issue today is because teams are often overly superior to others. I even stated before that this is largely based on two semi-evenly matched teams.

The second link doesn't even mention any specifics. It just says teams can adapt to it. I asked for examples of a team coming back from three goals down with 12 minutes to go. I still have only seen one that's even close to meeting that criteria. Again, I am sure it has happened. Probably even happened more than once, but chances are, the team that lost their player was far superior to begin with. And even then, they'd still need a mountain of luck to pull it off.

[crossbarchallenger]

It is easy to dominate! That's what I've been saying!

This is going in circles. Good luck to you if you think Overload, that formation and TIs will work without massively risking giving away goals. I'm out.

This is all I have to say to ScotchWhisky as well. We gave you at least two relevant examples from the same league in the last ten years and a few more topical examples of comebacks involving multiple goals in a short space of time by weaker opposition, which is essentially what you asked for. Not only have you shifted your standard between posts #14 and #51, you can't possibly expect anyone to take you seriously if you believe it's easier to score four goals when you go a man down earlier than later. You know, as if 10% more mental and physical energy expended per player isn't an issue at the highest level of the game. What do you want me to say? I'm out.

Boom.

[Some Guy!]

I am well aware of what the word means. And yes, I said it *could* happen. That doesn't mean it should happen. And in fact, no one yet has brought up a real life example of three goals being a man down in 12 minutes. Not one. It's theoretically possible, and therefore a chance, that a goal could be scored every other minute in the game resulting in a match that is 45-0. So if that happened should I just say "well, there was a chance it could happen so it's not the ME that's broken. It was just shear dumb luck!"?

I did. Brisbane Roar 4 - 0 Adelaide United, Round 14, 2010-11 A-League. Brisbane scored 3 goals in 13 minutes having had a man sent off (the 3 goals came within 11 minutes of eachother).

It happens.

[spaced33]

It goes both ways as well. Playing as Bayern Munich we went down to 10 men in the 4th minute. Went into half time 2-0 down with things looking bleak. Made some changes and we came out with a 3-2 win with the first of the three coming in the 76th minute. Loved that game!!

[benallen002]

Until SI come out and say: "Right, the ME is now flawless and we will no longer be making any updates to it, it replicates every conceivable aspect of play perfectly", then you will never know for sure whether you win or lose because the match was replicated as a real life match would be, or because of an as-of-yet unknown flaw in the ME. And even if they said it, it wouldn't make it true. All you can do is enjoy the game knowing that they are trying to make it as realistic as possible; and some time crazy sh** happens (whether it was a "bug" or just a fluke result like the games mentioned in this thread).

EDIT: when something this extraordinary happens, it is ALWAYS a good idea to send the PKM file to SI simply because if something happened that they didn't intend to be part of the simulation, then they might be able to see it and correct the issue. The worse they can say is "not a bug"