I believe a thank you to SI for FM13 is well deserved.

[Kriss]

So, did your predictions get fulfilled, milnerpoint? Or were you just trolling again?

@OP: I've been playing the series since the very beginning myself - 20 years I'm afraid Still I remember playing the first version and the impact it made on me compared to the other manager games I played at the time.

So even though FM13 has left me quite frustrated at times I very much agree with the OP.

Milnerpoint was wrong this time, let's keep it that way

[Nozzle]

WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!!!!!!!!!

Nah only joking, i couldnt agree more with the OP even if a times i can get very frustrated but i suspect thats down to my poor concentration levels.

[dooro23]

This here is a very good point.

Checking your post history for just a few seconds, I don't see how the post you quoted would be benefitial to you - you liked this one over the previous one, you hate this one over the previous one, and so on, and so on,.... I'm beginning to think you're just trolling.

@CityAndColour: Apart from it being easier for SI, I'm not against choice of ME. But I think its very very very likely, that the current bugs or the greener grass (aka previous MEs like you want) people are hating or dreaming of, are just major distractions leading to misperceptions of XY being good/bad, when the root of it really is "a ME where downloaded Plug&Play tactics or try&error-ing your head through the wall aren't really working anymore.". That's a much more drastic influence than the acknowledged bugs, but few seem to have realized that, at least if you read the forums.

[CityAndColour]

@CityAndColour: Apart from it being easier for SI, I'm not against choice of ME. But I think its very very very likely, that the current bugs or the greener grass (aka previous MEs like you want) people are hating or dreaming of, are just major distractions leading to misperceptions of XY being good/bad, when the root of it really is "a ME where downloaded Plug&Play tactics or try&error-ing your head through the wall aren't really working anymore.". That's a much more drastic influence than the acknowledged bugs, but few seem to have realized that, at least if you read the forums.

I think you need to stop assuming. I've had just as much success on this current update as any other using my own tactical methods/tweaks, I am just very frustrated by what I feel are fairly obvious match engine issues, and frustrated that I can't go back to a previous match engine while I wait for the next update. Nothing to do with wanting to click continue every game and win.

[Chris21]

Checking your post history for just a few seconds, I don't see how the post you quoted would be benefitial to you - you liked this one over the previous one, you hate this one over the previous one, and so on, and so on,.... I'm beginning to think you're just trolling.

The ME actually seemed far better without any updates for me....oddly.

I did originally think this update was much better. But as with most people I judged it way too early and began to see some crazy things which I have mentioned already. I don't think I'd go as far as saying its unplayable because I've played a good few seasons on it but its close. I just can't wait for the update because I'm very confident SI will have fixed everything. I'm just a little miffed this could a further month yet.

[Keyzer Soze]

I think you need to stop assuming. I've had just as much success on this current update as any other using my own tactical methods/tweaks, I am just very frustrated by what I feel are fairly obvious match engine issues, and frustrated that I can't go back to a previous match engine while I wait for the next update. Nothing to do with wanting to click continue every game and win.

I can understand this.

The truth is, previous the game went on Steam, the user could choose from any ME they prefer. This was an advantage.

On the other hand, now, with steam, we can have more ME fixes and quicker. But once we update we can't go back.

Both "systems" have pros and cons, but i prefer the way things happen now. It can be frustrated as you said, but in the end i think we, the users, will be benefit with a better product.

[dooro23]

I think you need to stop assuming.

It's hardly assuming, seeing the number of people free riding any current issue, to cover up or deny their own errors. Another misperception is, that you can't have success and be wrong, one will still get mad at goals/incidents you can't explain. This does not necessarily apply to everyone of course.

That being said, I don't know what was better overall in the previous ME over this one, because the amount of things that annoy me about them are roughly the same, but I don't really mind.

[Keyzer Soze]

The ME actually seemed far better without any updates for me....oddly.

Many think like you. They prefer the previous version, and i even seen people that prefer the original version that was released with the beta version.

I think it's very hard to built a ME that is good to everyone, because people play the game in different ways.

Some people like to win no matter what, so they want a ME that allows that. Others want realistic results and realistic football... and that... is something that is different from people to people.

For me, this is the best ME so far.

[CityAndColour]

It's hardly assuming, seeing the number of people free riding any current issue, to cover up or deny their own errors. Another misperception is, that you can't have success and be wrong, one will still get mad at goals/incidents you can't explain. This does not necessarily apply to everyone of course.

It is assuming, and while I appreciate that it may apply to some users, comments like "People just want to be able to plug and play" and "People just want to win every game" etc aren't helpful to anyone who wants to criticise in a constructive manner, and is having what they perceive as genuine issues. Who are you or anyone to judge what others want, and what they consider errors? It's dismissive, arrogant and downright irritating.

[dooro23]

It is assuming, and while I appreciate that it may apply to some users, comments like "People just want to be able to plug and play" and "People just want to win every game" etc aren't helpful to anyone who wants to criticise in a constructive manner, and is having what they perceive as genuine issues. Who are you or anyone to judge what others want, and what they consider errors? It's dismissive, arrogant and downright irritating.

I never said that, stop distorting my posts and putting them out of context.

[Kriss]

Agree to disagree?

Aside from your tiff could we not let this turn into another ME thread please, deleting multiple posts is actually quite boring.

[Chris Waddle]

On the whole I'd have to say that the OP is a very well thought out and articulate piece. I have to agree, this version has got me far more involved in pre-match than any previous version. For once I really do feel that I have to organise the training, the scouting and the match preparation. This really has improved on before and well done SI for this.

Whilst I really do commend all of the above, the sad fact is that all it is worthless is the ME is a complete and utter disaster. I have honestly been playing this since the original DOS version and have seen how this game has progressed in leaps and bounds. There have been many introductions that have given me a 'wow' factor, but nothing has ever imparted on me more than this ME; it's a complete shambles. I'm not being harsh as the ME is by far the most important factor in the game. I am not going into details (as much as I would really, really, really, really love to) but for love the of god, on what planet do we play football on frictionless pitches? I had an instance recently where my player hit the post (probably for the 900th time in one game) and it zoomed back so fast across the pitch that my own goalie had to make a hell of a save to stop an own goal being scored.

As I said, well done on the OP, but for the love of god this game is only viable if the ME works. If the ME is broken, everything you do before, during and after a game is worthless.

[Kriss]

Didn't read my post just above yours then.

[Bruce Drundrige]

There is no other game whatsoever that I've played for more than a few months, there is no other game whatsoever that I've played for over 15 years in spite of the fact that it is still basically the same game.

That's why SI deserve praise, even given the various glitches over the years.

This ^^^

[JR866Gunner]

One thing I will say, this is a bl00dy good thread, people do not realise how much work/effort goes into this fantastic game.

Not many games out there are at the decent price for the sheer amount of hours of gameplay this gives.

Love it and always have since CM00/01 just a shame I can only play in my lunch break at work nowadays! but back on topic SI have done a great job to keep it fresh and playable each year and FM13 is one of the most realistic and best yet. I honestly can see me playing 13 for two years but I imagine that is not gonna happen and I will be dragged into the hype and excited as i do every year!

[milnerpoint]

Milnerpoint was wrong this time, let's keep it that way

And delighted to be proven wrong as well

This thread has brought back some faith in the SI forums for me

[Jamman]

I have huge respect for SI, Ive played their games since the very first version on the Amiga.

Ive been a tester in the past and have had discussions with Paul C over issues in previous versions, how many gamers can say that about developers ?

There have been some amazing games and the progress made over the years has been incredible. I personally never thought 3D would appear in FM, and now couldnt play it without. Its the most engaging game there is and easily the best game IVe played in 30 years of gaming.

I played FM12 from release solidly until FM13 was released, which is unlike me, normally I play for 6 months or so then wait till the next one. I absolutely loved FM12, I thought it was the best one ever.

Unfortunately I have to be honest and say that FM13 has been a disappointment. Now it probably doesnt help I was still well into my FM12 saved game, but the match engine for me was a massive step back in this release, and the fact that its now January and we are still awaiting for improvements can only show that FM13 sadly will go down as a poor year for FM. It may well be that after all patches the game will be right up there with FM12, but due to the time taken to get there, and the fact the length of time the finished product will be used for personally it wont be as well remembered for me as FM12.

All said and done SI are a great team and I love Football Manager, but that doesnt mean you cant look at it objectively and think FM13 isnt a disappointment over previous years.

[aiston]

Good post, but each to their own, I don't think they deserve a big thank you for FM13(yet).

FM13 is decent, until the match engine(Prefer 12.1), it's awful. Players ignoring what you tell them(long shots, keeper) as well as the crazy amount of shots and goals as well as the many other issues.

I Pre-ordered and played the BETA, It still feels like being used as a BETA tester.

[Federico]

I have played through all the versions of the greatest football management simulation that has ever been created and SI deserve a big thank you for that as it has kept me consistently entertained for over half of my life. Nobody else, outside of family, friends and work, has occupied so much of my time by asking so little as a reward for what they've offered me. I state the above in starting this post in order to explain that I'm happy and in a way feel privileged to be able to help SI, even if it's just in a monetary fashion, to improve on this game, so if a version does not really seem that good I have a lot of patience for them because (well, primarily it's probably because I'm so much older now, hehe) I know they'll come good in the end.

For those that remember CM4 before the split then they'll remember that that game was trully unplayable and there were so many faults with it that people completely gave up with it, however the final product was exceptional and CM4 also had a very short life span as its release was hugely delayed, so a lot of people will not know that it was so good because they would have given up on it and awaited for the release of the next version. To this date, not one of the other versions has been unplayable 'steaming' or not out of a box (see what I done there? ) and that is not different with FM13 either.

Before I continue I'd like to say that I don't know anything with regards to the challenges or FMC as I'm not interested in them at all. I am only interested in the full version of the game.

My experience of this great game has been diminishing since it became known as Football Manager and it incorporated the 3D match engine and the reason for that was exactly because I was able to build a tactic and win everything so fast that before too long it became sort of tedious to play it anymore and I was finding that bizzare as SI were incorporating so many new features in the game that I felt like I should be using but I was not because I always won. Why touch on things that could ruin your run if you done the wrong thing? So, I never touched scouting, didn't care about player interactions or press conferences, I let the assistant do the pre, half-time and post match team talks and I definitely did not care about training either.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't feel like FM13 is the final product yet, but in this version I have actively been involved with all of the above and, even more significantly, so much more reactive to what is happening on the pitch that the hours that I have accumulated on this version surpass all the hours I've spent on the three previous versions and we're only in January. I'm not very good with tactics and formations, I get angry with some of the bizzare things that take place on the pitch and I have my fair share of 'rage quits' as well. We all want to win and lose, fair and squarely, right?

So, in conclusion, I realised today that even though I have been feeling quite frustrated with FM13 and thought 'oh my goodness, when will this going to get better?' I saw the hours that I have accumulated and was well and trully shocked and then I sat down and tried to make sense of how could I have spent so much time with something that I felt was not that good anyway. Well, the answer lies with all the hints and tips that I've collected by reading through the numerous helpful threads in the 'tactic and training' section of these forums and also on other websites.

The combination of SI's fantastic game and the unbelievable amount of help that exists out there and here on these forums have re-ignited my love and passion for this simulation game and for football in general. Nothing compares with seeing the success of youths in my game by applying my own plans and structures in training (individual or not) over a number of years and then see it delivered on the pitch. I've worked on this for the first time on this version (FM13) and it's something that I've never done before in any of the other versions, so for all its faults FM13 has turned out to be the most enjoyable game and definitely the most engaging game by SI that I have ever played.

So, I want to let SI know that I really appreciate all the hard work you've done and are still doing on this version and also express a huge THANK YOU to all the people creating these immensely helpful threads in the 'tactics and training' section of these forums and the websites across the web. I'm not naming anyone, because you know who you are and if you are thinking whether I mean you or not then I definitely do mean you.

Thank you for your patience in reading this and please take heart from this, even if it's just a little smudge on these forums.

Mmm.

I'm sorry, it's not my intention to raise up any other diatribe here, but I can litterally see jam&honey flowing from my screen.

I don't like this kind of post as much as I don't like full-of-rage-and-moan-and-rant post.

You mods said you're going to close every other topic void of constructive criticism. Fair enough. Just I can't see how constructive this post could ever be. I only read about a guy who played the game since ages, who was frustrated and then seen the light and enjoys the game that now turned into the best ever.

Please show me how and where this post was constructive.

I'm sorry again it's not my intention to ruin the good mood of this thread.

[Jibby123]

Mmm.

I'm sorry, it's not my intention to raise up any other diatribe here, but I can litterally see jam&honey flowing from my screen.

I don't like this kind of post as much as I don't like full-of-rage-and-moan-and-rant post.

You mods said you're going to close every other topic void of constructive criticism. Fair enough. Just I can't see how constructive this post could ever be. I only read about a guy who played the game since ages, who was frustrated and then seen the light and enjoys the game that now turned into the best ever.

Please show me how and where this post was constructive.

I'm sorry again it's not my intention to ruin the good mood of this thread.

Being thanked and told you're appreciated is always constructive Federico. In any walk of life or life scenario. Try it.

[Rashidi]

Mmm.

You mods said you're going to close every other topic void of constructive criticism. Fair enough. Just I can't see how constructive this post could ever be.

So all posts on GQ need to be constructive? I guess noone can ask questions then in GQ....jeez :confused:. Constructive posts were in reference to the "Feedback" threads. And after everything that the SI folks and the rest of the folk who are the Unmentioned go through each 'patch season' I reckon that once in a while a post like this makes them feel that their hard work is warranted, and in some quarters appreciated. And the mods don't need to go around closing each and every thread on someones say so.

OMG the fact that a post needs to be constructive to be on GQ? I still can't over this..maybe its your first day in GQ, no wait you've been a member since 2008.

[SRL88]

As I said in here, it is one thing for people to say this is crap and that is crap, I hate this game, and trust me, there are way to many posts going on about that. Comments like that aren't needed for starters, and second of all, it just is not constructive. The moderators have every right to close a thread when comments like that are made and people are referred to the feedback threads where they should post.

The OP is a lovely message in relation to FM and other SI products and disagreements are certain. That is the beauty of the Internet is that there are constant disagreements and discussions should take place...but this is not the place for people to be saying that 'I bet this won't be closed' and labelling the mods as you would just because they haven't closed a thread. If it continues down that line, then this, and every other form of thread will be closed.

[Federico]

Being thanked and told you're appreciated is always constructive Federico. In any walk of life or life scenario. Try it.

No. I don't know in which world you live in, but in mine I have many reasons (more important than a videogame) for not saying "thanks". So please let's avoid this kind of "life best quotes"

So all posts on GQ need to be constructive? I guess noone can ask questions then in GQ....jeez :confused:. Constructive posts were in reference to the "Feedback" threads. And after everything that the SI folks and the rest of the folk who are the Unmentioned go through each 'patch season' I reckon that once in a while a post like this makes them feel that their hard work is warranted, and in some quarters appreciated. And the mods don't need to go around closing each and every thread on someones say so.

OMG the fact that a post needs to be constructive to be on GQ? I still can't over this..maybe its your first day in GQ, no wait you've been a member since 2008.

I'm really sorry Rashidi, but I don't know the meaning of "GQ" so i'm afraid i can't reply to you. Here a constructive criticism: you english guys are brilliant, but sometimes you abuse of acronyms (even wwfan speaking about tactics and duties does). I admit my english is poor and I apologise for that.

As I said in here, it is one thing for people to say this is crap and that is crap, I hate this game, and trust me, there are way to many posts going on about that. Comments like that aren't needed for starters, and second of all, it just is not constructive. The moderators have every right to close a thread when comments like that are made and people are referred to the feedback threads where they should post.

The OP is a lovely message in relation to FM and other SI products and disagreements are certain. That is the beauty of the Internet is that there are constant disagreements and discussions should take place...but this is not the place for people to be saying that 'I bet this won't be closed' and labelling the mods as you would just because they haven't closed a thread. If it continues down that line, then this, and every other form of thread will be closed.

No no no. I guess my post was misunderstood. Or I misunderstood the way you decided for keeping a thread open or closing it instead.

As said in my post, i dislike useless ranting and fuming post from frustrated people as much as post like the OP (this I know: original poster )wrote. And the opinion I got from reading it, and reading the following comments, was "ok he is thanking SI for no real reason, but people applaude him. Why?"

No arguments we all played and enjoyed every FM so far but why i should thank a company now for a mediocre product. If I make a bad mistake at work, I will swallow my load of ****, no doubt on this... even whether I'm, or I was, basically flawless for 250 days.

If because of a mistake of mine a production of an entire shift must be thrown away, believe me, I expect everything but my boss or colleagues telling me "hey don't worry, thanks anyway for what you did the last year!".

It's just a point of view and I will keep it. And I wanted to make things clear here because I probably misunderstood what a thread is worth to be kept open. Yeah it's a lovely message... wow. So cute. And?

Also, I don't read any "critic" thread open now. A newcomer who needs more information about the game and comes here, won't read how things are in this moment but only 50% of the truth. I know we probably came to this because of bad attitudes from some users and because of way too many vitriolic post around here... yet I don't think this way is the way things should work and it's pretty disappointing, according to my point of view, to see such a strict behavior from staff.

However, I will survive for sure, forum or not.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

So am I the only one who thought that the OP was hugely sarchastic?

[Welshace]

Please stop with the profanity... why would you think that it would be allowed when the filter tries to stop it?

[Jibby123]

So am I the only one who thought that the OP was a huge take?

Isn't everything a take?

[Welshace]

Jibby.... read my post above yours..

[Jibby123]

Yeah, saw it, it answered my question. Thanks

[stevereay]

Gotta love the double standards. A thread that praises SI yet brings no new value stays open. Yet threads that have a go at Si are rapidly closed. Time for me to stay off these forums every time i come on here my frustration levels with FM13 rise to a new level.

You have till a mod see this post and deletes it to comment.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Please stop with the profanity... why would you think that it would be allowed when the filter tries to stop it?

Apologies, I thought that was permitted.

[themadsheep2001]

Gotta love the double standards. A thread that praises SI yet brings no new value stays open. Yet threads that have a go at Si are rapidly closed. Time for me to stay off these forums every time i come on here my frustration levels with FM13 rise to a new level.

You have till a mod see this post and deletes it to comment.

To quote SRL88:

Feedback, whether positve or negative is welcome by SI, but when people just come on and say the same old stuff ina non-constructive manner such as saying this and that is crap isn't constructive at all. That is when threads get closed.

If people have issues and explain those issues then it is going to be listened to.

If you'd actually read this thread you'd have seen that.

[Kriss]

And the opinion I got from reading it, and reading the following comments, was "ok he is thanking SI for no real reason, but people applaude him. Why?"

If the OP is praising SI for 20 years worth of FM then I'd say that's justifiable, if he's praising them for FM13 then I'd say he's a little premature though I do expect it to be praiseworthy eventually.

I am getting fed up with people accusing us of selective censorship, we have permitted any amount of criticism, much of it not particularly constructive, the guidelines we're using are clearly laid out in the house rules and the sticky at the top of the page.

If you adhere to them you won't be censored or censured

[Kriss]

Gotta love the double standards. A thread that praises SI yet brings no new value stays open. Yet threads that have a go at Si are rapidly closed. Time for me to stay off these forums every time i come on here my frustration levels with FM13 rise to a new level.

You have till a mod see this post and deletes it to comment.

Looking through your posting history inclines me to suggest you create a thread which "brings new value" then we can test your theory you don't appear to have managed it in over 9 years on these forums.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

If the OP is praising SI for 20 years worth of FM then I'd say that's justifiable, if he's praising them for FM13 then I'd say he's a little premature though I do expect it to be praiseworthy eventually.

I am getting fed up with people accusing us of selective censorship, we have permitted any amount of criticism, much of it not particularly constructive, the guidelines we're using are clearly laid out in the house rules and the sticky at the top of the page.

If you adhere to them you won't be censored or censured

Actually that is a fair perspective.

[Jibby123]

Actually that is a fair perspective.

He usually is. He's like GD's Lee Marvin (or whatever the character Lee Marvin plays ) in the film; The Dirty Dozen.

[Kriss]

He usually is. He's like GD's Lee Marvin (or whatever the character Lee Marvin plays ) in the film; The Dirty Dozen.

Major Reisman, I'm not going to be dawn on who the forum's Vernon Pinkley is

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

He usually is. He's like GD's Lee Marvin (or whatever the character Lee Marvin plays ) in the film; The Dirty Dozen.

I was thinking more "Nice Guy Eddie" from Reservoir Dogs, but I get your point.

[Gooner88]

Good post, I agree. Too much moaning about SI when this is still the best game around

[Federico]

If the OP is praising SI for 20 years worth of FM then I'd say that's justifiable, if he's praising them for FM13 then I'd say he's a little premature though I do expect it to be praiseworthy eventually.

I'd dare to say he's a little premature then, considering the title of the thread. I think both the lines of thought should be considered in the same way.

This is my opinion, and I think if people keep accusing staff of "selective censorship", maybe it's time you to wonder why. However I want to stop this before it turn into something worse. I remember you I'm here because I love the series, not this edition particulary (not yet at least) but I'm still a supporter of yours

[Blueflash]

I'd dare to say he's a little premature then, considering the title of the thread. I think both the lines of thought should be considered in the same way.

This is my opinion, and I think if people keep accusing staff of "selective censorship", maybe it's time you to wonder why. However I want to stop this before it turn into something worse. I remember you I'm here because I love the series, not this edition particularly (not yet at least) but I'm still a supporter of yours

Dude you are wasting your time. Obvious double standards are obvious, no matter how much peeps try to sugarcoat it. Whining on forums will do nothing to get the patch out faster, neither will it improve your experience of the game. Only thing left to do is mildly express our disapproval in hypocritical threads like this and move on, hoping the hit to initial sales of FM 14 lets them know in no uncertain terms that the kind of <snip> pulled this year was and is unacceptable.

[Petros7]

My first post was a genuine and sincere show of support and praise of SI and its history in managing to produce an excellent game, even considering the biggest fiasco they ever had - CM4, but most importantly a show of admiration and respect to those on these forums (and particularly in the 'tactics and training' section) who have bent over backwards to promote and help people understand the path this game is taking. And yes, I thank them for FM13 as well (even if it seems premature) , because I can see the potential and because with their track record in my mind all these years I know that it will be praiseworthy eventually.

You can see my posts however you like to see them and I have no problem with that; it is part and parcel of the human condition to pick out the things that satisfy our specific world view and ignore every other angle. I do it too. If that makes some people happy then I have no reason or wish whatsoever to alter their view. Maybe it'll be good for their blood pressure levels however to ignore this thread.

If a moderator had decided to close this thread because they felt it didn't offer anything I would be happy with that as I spoke my mind and I know that my message was heard loud and clear by those for whom it was intented and maybe that has been achieved now and its usefullness has expired. I leave that decision to the moderators.

Whatever people think of my post and myself personally I don't care, but I feel proud to have been able to express myself freely and without prejudice. I don't post much evidently, as per my post count and the year I registered, and I have no wish to start doing so now, so what you see in this thread from me is all you are going to see here from me.

Thank you for reading and debating over my thoughts; I really do appreciate it.

[AnfieldRoad10]

I honestly think I must be playing a different game to some of you guys. Love the game, as I've loved every other FM/CM that I've played.

<snip>

[CityAndColour]

Some people here need to grow up a bit, stop ****ing whinging and remember, nobody forced you to buy this game at gunpoint. You had the opportunity to try the demo first, if you didn't try it, bought it anyway and now don't like it, tough ****.

Constructive.

I really enjoyed the release engine. I think the latest build is very poor and a big step backwards. Where does that leave me in your wonderful view of the world?

[themadsheep2001]

Dude you are wasting your time. Obvious double standards are obvious, no matter how much peeps try to sugarcoat it. Whining on forums will do nothing to get the patch out faster, neither will it improve your experience of the game. Only thing left to do is mildly express our disapproval in hypocritical threads like this and move on, hoping the hit to initial sales of FM 14 lets them know in no uncertain terms that the kind of **** pulled this year was and is unacceptable.

Spoken like someone who didn't read the main feedback thread clearly enough, since people were allowed to do so, even when it patently wasnt constructive. In fact I know you posted on it, so you defnitely would have seen plenty of constructive posts. And if you hadn't noticed, the non-ME feedback thread is still open, so your whole double standards argument falls totally flat on its face. So, far from it being sugar coated its actually on point.

Hell, the only reason the ME feedback thread was closed was because there was no point in receiving feedback on version 1325 when they had already told us in said thread that they were testing version 1328, which makes said feedback obsolete.

[FrazT]

This thread is going downhill- this time I have edited the posts, but no more please or the thread will be closed.