Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[hursty2]

What do I have to do to get someone to look at a game for me? I've just lost 7-1, obviously something has gone drastically wrong but I don't know what?

What files do I need to upload pkm and... ?

[vkastanas]

I have played all my mtaches with this tactic:

A total of 7 matches

Why my tactic familiarity looks like this?

You can find details of my experiment [thread=347753]here![/thread]

Please tell me, is there something I am doing wrong and I am not getting an answer? I really ask so I can do things differently...

[Mighty Red]

I'm no tactical genious but there's several things that stand out to me: both of your central defenders are given stopper duty. This means they will both rush out to try and snuff out any danger, usually you need to have some form of cover for when it goes wrong - and you have no cover so you'll be leaving gaps in central defence. Secondly, you have no-one but the strikers with attack duty this means they are going to be separated from you midfield, especially since you have both strikers on attack. I'd suggest giving one of them a support duty and giving one of your midfielders an attack duty.

Thirdly, you are playing with no roaming and no creativity - this doesn't really suit a direct style of play. Direct play needs people to run into space - at the moment your attackers are too easy to pick up. The fact you are playing with a slow tempo slightly contradicts the direct style of play too - tempo dictates how quickly players move the ball from defence to attack.

Fourthly, you are playing very deep, very narrow, with low closing down and cautious tackling. This is a recipe for inviting pressure onto you.

I get the impression that you've chosen all these settings because you have bad players. What you have to do is assess your players against the opposition you are playing - in absolute terms you may have poor players, but relatively they me be quite good compared to the rest of the league. I'd focus on your defence first - you concede way too many goals then try and sort out your strikers

[RTHerringbone]

Please tell me, is there something I am doing wrong and I am not getting an answer? I really ask so I can do things differently...

I would go as far as to say that there is nothing that you aren't doing wrong.

Your roles and duties are incoherent and simply illogical.

Two central stoppers and fullbacks set to defend is not something I've seen before, and there's a reason for that....

Your CMs offer nothing other than defensive presence, your wingers just hit the ball early to two isolated front men.

Movement through your team is non-existent.

You are Very Rigid, and with your strange Duty allocation this utterly creates divisions in your team, it would be hard to make a less logical setup.

You Play Deep, Narrow and Slow, but Stand Off and adopt cautious tackling, "Come into our half, and when you do, we'll just let you keep on coming".

Sliders are always open to debate, and the general consensus is that they are best only touched if you know what you are doing.

Reviewing your slider tweaks reveals that you do not know what you are doing, and so you should remove every single team instruction and individual instruction tweak you have made.

You have shackled your whole defence and midfield into creativity free zombies. I'm genuinely surprised that you have scored goals.

There are good threads about 4-4-2's, and just a read of wwfan's Twelve Step Guide will show you just how far off the mark your Duty allocation is.

I reckon that if you just load up the out of the box TC 4-4-2, it will do better than what you have built.

Sorry to be so damning, but it is simply wrong on every level.

[vkastanas]

Thank you very much Mighty Red. That's what I was looking for...

... there is nothing that you aren't doing wrong.

Ha, ha... I thought of that too!

Sorry to be so damning, but it is simply wrong on every level.

Thank you for being so...

[hursty2]

Here's some information from the 7-1 thumping I was on the end of.

Starting tactic; I'd been dominating teams using a 4-4-2 but decided I would switch to the 4-3-3 for this game as it creates many more chances, an area in which I'd been struggling with. How wrong was I for changing it.

Inside the first half I found myself down 4-0, 4-0! And they had actually only had 4 shots, scoring from all of them (bad day at the office?). At this point though I'd had 8 chances myself and imo was dominating (obviously not efficiently).

Second Tactic

I then went into the second half with my second formation the one which reduces the chances made for both teams. At least I thought it did, they scored again with their 5th shot of the game, 5-0. All 5 shots resulting in a goal, my team was capitulating and I was fuming. They then went onto score another two and I missed a few CCC's, whilst finally scoring with a penalty.

So what I'm asking is, was this just a horrible, really horrible day at the office? Or were my tactics completely wrong? (most likely)

[vkastanas]

@ Mighty Red, RTHerringbone

I don't know if you've seen this but that is why I play like this.

Any comments on the familiarity issue?

[RTHerringbone]

hursty2: Switching from one tactic to a completely different one from one game to the next probably isn't advisable unless you are fluid with the changes to Style, Strategy, Closing Down etc between those two tactics.

I've had success with a flat 4-3-3 (there's a thread still on Page One) so am reasonably well placed to comment on the setup you have for that specific tactic.

Your setup isn't wildly different to my own, but has a few key differences.

I believe one of it's shortcoming is with supply to the front line. Really only the CM (A) and FB (A) are moving between the lines.

The DLP (D) provides through balls, but I'm not certain of how effective a CM on Automatic is. In place of your Automatic CM I have an AP on Support, and he offers more movement and through balls than your Automatic CM will.

Where you have one FB on Attack, I have two WBs on Attack. This isn't as overly aggressive as it sounds, as the DLP (D) is such a positionally aware role than he always acts as a third defender when you have the ball further up pitch.

For me, Shorter passing is never the answer. This is particularly evident in formations with neither a DM or AM strata role. Default passing still offers Short passes where appropriate (you should see loads between your 3 MCs), but also offers a variety of passing length to offer more and different service to the front men.

Very Fluid possibly isn't appropriate for your team and with that shape. I'd be inclined to be more structured with a 4-3-3, and personally play Standard.

Shipping 7 goals obviously implies that there were some defensive issues! I'm not sure if you can say what the half time heat map was after the event, but I suspect that Leicester started on Control or Standard at least, and had you pushed back. By increasing Strategy to Standard from Counter, and possibly by increasing Closing Down to Press More, you'd have engaged the opposition earlier and arguably prevented some of their chances.

[RTHerringbone]

@ Mighty Red, RTHerringbone

I don't know if you've seen this but that is why I play like this.

Any comments on the familiarity issue?

Not sure what I'm looking at on the link?

Low familiarity is easily resolved using Cleon's advice on another thread - in Preseason set team training to Very High Fitness, and have loads of Match Preparation training on Tactics.

[vkastanas]

Not sure what I'm looking at on the link?

You are looking the logic behind my illogical tactics...If there is any. I mean it's a post where I am trynig to explain why I chose these tactical settings.

Low familiarity is easily resolved using Cleon's advice on another thread - in Preseason set team training to Very High Fitness, and have loads of Match Preparation training on Tactics.

Have read this and have set my training to high fitness and Tactics only. But that is the result after 7 matches...

[RTHerringbone]

Have read this and have set my training to high fitness and Tactics only. But that is the result after 7 matches...

If you are on the high notches of Match Preparation and set to tactics, I'm not sure what the issue can be. Maybe amateur status means you train less and so the effectiveness of training is reduced.

I read your thread and think you misinterpret some of the key Team Instructions and what they actually do. Lots of this next bit is from your thread, and I disagree with quite a bit:

Style: Very rigid (The team's decision rating is really low. I thought that the players don't have to decide anything. That's why very rigid)

Strategy: Balanced (Bar Ulta Defensive and Overload it was my only option. Attacking means I have good attackers but I don't, Control means I am better but I am not, Counter means I am fast but I am not, defensive means I have good defenders but i don't)

Passing style:More direct (No ability to check for the right pass. So get rid of it as fast as you can)

Creative Freedom: More disciplined (I am clearly in luck of creativity)

Closing Down:Stand off more (Stamina is poor. They can't push al over the place)

Tackling:More Cautious (I am very aggressive with poor tackling)

Marking: Zonal (No one knows what it means to man mark. And those who know can't do it)

Crossing: Default (I left it like that. The only decision is first or second post. Doesn't make any difference)

Roaming: Stick to position (They don't know what to do, so it's up to me to clear this out)

Defensive Line: Deep (My defenders don't have the pace and stamina to run back if they are up the field)

Width:Narrow (I have to be compact and leave no space to others teams to move. If they exploit the flanks and cross the ball my tall defenders should clear up)

Tempo:Slow (I am lacking stamina. Fast games I can't play)

Time Wasting:Sometimes (If I waste it, it won't pass)

Focus Passing:Mixed (Don't have the right players either to play the middle or the flanks)

Counter Attack:No (With that pace and stamina?)

Play Offside:No (With a deep slow defence that's an obvius choice)

You have worse passers, so ask them to play longer a typically longer pass.

Style doesn't determine decision making as such, just determines how player duties operate.

Strategy - playing Attacking doesn't depend on having good attackers, nor does Counter depend on pace etc.

Other assumptions combine to create chaos. As previously stated, Deep + Narrow + Stand Off + Cautious Tackling = inviting pressure in every way.

Just try again with a far cleaner setup. No individual slider tweaks will mean that it is easier to diagnose problems. The default slider settings aren't perfect, but they are at least logical and coherent.

[hursty2]

hursty2: Switching from one tactic to a completely different one from one game to the next probably isn't advisable unless you are fluid with the changes to Style, Strategy, Closing Down etc between those two tactics.

I've had success with a flat 4-3-3 (there's a thread still on Page One) so am reasonably well placed to comment on the setup you have for that specific tactic.

Your setup isn't wildly different to my own, but has a few key differences.

I believe one of it's shortcoming is with supply to the front line. Really only the CM (A) and FB (A) are moving between the lines.

The DLP (D) provides through balls, but I'm not certain of how effective a CM on Automatic is. In place of your Automatic CM I have an AP on Support, and he offers more movement and through balls than your Automatic CM will.

Where you have one FB on Attack, I have two WBs on Attack. This isn't as overly aggressive as it sounds, as the DLP (D) is such a positionally aware role than he always acts as a third defender when you have the ball further up pitch.

For me, Shorter passing is never the answer. This is particularly evident in formations with neither a DM or AM strata role. Default passing still offers Short passes where appropriate (you should see loads between your 3 MCs), but also offers a variety of passing length to offer more and different service to the front men.

Very Fluid possibly isn't appropriate for your team and with that shape. I'd be inclined to be more structured with a 4-3-3, and personally play Standard.

Shipping 7 goals obviously implies that there were some defensive issues! I'm not sure if you can say what the half time heat map was after the event, but I suspect that Leicester started on Control or Standard at least, and had you pushed back. By increasing Strategy to Standard from Counter, and possibly by increasing Closing Down to Press More, you'd have engaged the opposition earlier and arguably prevented some of their chances.

Cheers, that helps massively. The more movement between lines does make sense and I think that's what I was trying to do with a 'very fluid' approach, hoping that my front three would drop in and that my cm's would push forward.

It also does make sense to include a AP in there, as I've got a few players suited to that role. I'll try to get more movement in between the lines by using more attacking roles in certain places, specialist roles too. Then drop it from very fluid to balance maybe even rigid.

Thanks again.

[Keyzer Soze]

I just played a game in my current save, and after seeing my team score the last goal (i've won 5-1) i just thought about posting here to express my hapiness.

The goal itself wasn't a great goal, but it was a goal that fully express the fundaments of my tactic.

I play a 451 formation, and in the midfield i have a advance playmaker (with support role) and a central midfielder (with attack role). In the attack i play with a deep Lying Forward. I really enjoy this goal, because i could see my Hristovski (my AP) playing a good pass to Rodrigo (my DLP), who drop deep creating space for Kulli (my CM) to score.

It was great to see, because what i imagine in theory in my mind, actually happen in the game!

[video=youtube;ZywjIeVUk2U]

[vkastanas]

If you are on the high notches of Match Preparation and set to tactics, I'm not sure what the issue can be. Maybe amateur status means you train less and so the effectiveness of training is reduced.

Then hopefully familiarity will increase but it will be slow...

You have worse passers, so ask them to play longer a typically longer pass.

I do tell them to play long.Or you just being ironic here?

Style doesn't determine decision making as such, just determines how player duties operate.

So you agree that fluid is not an options.My players don't make it with one duty, how they can make a little bit of something?

Strategy - playing Attacking doesn't depend on having good attackers, nor does Counter depend on pace etc.

But good attackers for attacking and fast players for counter attacking do help, don't they?

As previously stated, Deep + Narrow + Stand Off + Cautious Tackling = inviting pressure in every way.

But I want that so that I can "steal" the game somehow...

Just try again with a far cleaner setup. No individual slider tweaks will mean that it is easier to diagnose problems. The default slider settings aren't perfect, but they are at least logical and coherent.

Thanks for the tip.Will do...

[briz_lad]

@vkastanas You have been offered good advice and are choosing to ignore it. Your comment about trying to steal a game proves it. How can you possibly "steal" a game if you are incapable of scoring or keeping the games tight? Your tactic makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and I don't even know where to start on your roles. You need to take the time out to read a few threads to gain an understanding of what you are doing as you have shown you don't understand what the roles do. You need to read the very start of this thread, a simple 12 step guide and the thread on playing 4-4-2.

[achilles-the-victorious]

I think he just needs to start with a basic tactic, TBH. The tweaks should come over time, not all in one go, lets see what happens.

I think the problem is, he is comparing his players to the players in Europe, not the opposition in Indonesia. You need to see what level is your team at, compared to your rivals. I am sure you will find your tackling, passing, marking, are all quite close the the avg. level in your league. Meaning, you can ask your players to close down more, you can ask them to pass shorter, you can afford a faster tempo, higher line, more width...

[vkastanas]

@vkastanas You have been offered good advice and are choosing to ignore it. Your comment about trying to steal a game proves it. How can you possibly "steal" a game if you are incapable of scoring or keeping the games tight? Your tactic makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and I don't even know where to start on your roles. You need to take the time out to read a few threads to gain an understanding of what you are doing as you have shown you don't understand what the roles do. You need to read the very start of this thread, a simple 12 step guide and the thread on playing 4-4-2.

Νο, that's not the case. I've read the threads really carefully and slowly and I ended making this bad tactic. So I've read them wrong. I am trying to understand my mistakes that's all. Many thanks for the feedback!

I think he just needs to start with a basic tactic, TBH. The tweaks should come over time, not all in one go, lets see what happens.

I think the problem is, he is comparing his players to the players in Europe, not the opposition in Indonesia. You need to see what level is your team at, compared to your rivals. I am sure you will find your tackling, passing, marking, are all quite close the the avg. level in your league. Meaning, you can ask your players to close down more, you can ask them to pass shorter, you can afford a faster tempo, higher line, more width...

This is closest to the thruth TBH. Although I have the worst team in Indonesia according to the comparison screens on the team report, the opposition is not too good either. They are just better than me...

[hursty2]

Cannot get out of this rut.

[Mighty Red]

@vkastanas

I'd suggest that you provide some clues about the strengths of your team. Are they fast, strong? Or are they technical? Do you have comparatively good wide men compared to your central midfielders?

We can then give some pointers about where to start. I made the point in my original response (and someone has reiterated it as well) that you need to compare your team against your opposition. If you are genuinely the weakest team in the league then you have a couple of options, sit back, defend in numbers and try and hit on the counter (the 4-4-2 is generally weak in midfield when you've got poor players - in which case you are better off changing your tactic if you want to pursue this route). Or you can go on the offensive and take teams by surprise and hope to win high-scoring games - again, the 4-4-2 is not generally suited to this.

To be honest, my gut would say go and try and dominate the middle of park and try to deprive the opposition of the ball and hope to make something of set-pieces/counters - but that's just me

[vkastanas]

I'd suggest that you provide some clues about the strengths of your team. Are they fast, strong? Or are they technical? Do you have comparatively good wide men compared to your central midfielders?

We can then give some pointers about where to start. I made the point in my original response (and someone has reiterated it as well) that you need to compare your team against your opposition. If you are genuinely the weakest team in the league then you have a couple of options, sit back, defend in numbers and try and hit on the counter (the 4-4-2 is generally weak in midfield when you've got poor players - in which case you are better off changing your tactic if you want to pursue this route). Or you can go on the offensive and take teams by surprise and hope to win high-scoring games - again, the 4-4-2 is not generally suited to this.

To be honest, my gut would say go and try and dominate the middle of park and try to deprive the opposition of the ball and hope to make something of set-pieces/counters - but that's just me

Thank you for the answer once again. All this are covered in my [thread=347753]thread[/thread]. Ι can give you specific posts but I won't. That's the reason I made a different thread anyway. In order not to monopolize this one here.

Thank you again for the tips...

[andii]

First of all i have to say this tread took me a week to read but i think im starting to become a better manager cause of it :-)

I have been writing notes on paper and it is a big pile of papers now

Im playing With Portsmouth and im on the New patch so my team isn't the best but we gained promotion through play off so im ready for npower Championship.

I am playing with the formation Cleon explains in the first posts and I have been looking at the matches I didn't perform as good as I would liked and I have noticed

that its when im facing a flat midfield of 5 (4-5-1) and the exact style as me (they play more aggressive than me though).

What shouts would you guys use vs. those formations above ?

[mdougal]

Hi Cleon

Great thread, I've really enjoyed reading your ideas and everyone's input.

I will start this by saying I had a few years off playing the game and then bought FM2013. I have tried a few saves where I didn't really think about what I was doing and just played the game thinking I should be able to win all in front of me like I did in my heyday of playing football manager.

I have now read a few of these threads and have taken on board a new way of thinking and would like possibly to run few things with you Cleon or anyone else.

I chose to play as Wigan as I enjoy the way that they play in real life and think they have some good players to play the way I want to set up.

I have now finished my first season in 8th position which I was of course very happy with and there were a lot of games in this first season that I conceded late goals that cost me quite a few points so it could have been even better.

The tactics I chose were 3-1-4-2 with 3 normal defenders, 1 deep lying playmaker, 2 cm one on defend one on attack and 2 defensive wingers, then 2 upfront with an advanced forward and a trequartista

Al habsi

Alcatraz Ramis Figueroa

Capoue

Maloney McCarthy Diame beausejour

Kone Leo

I have bought Diame Leo and capoue, and have pretty much the rest of the squad as normal.

I play counter attack with balanced philosophy, short passing, zonal marking, slow tempo I think it is pretty much the setup Cleon talked about in his 3-1-4-2 setup

The question I have really is after having a good first season I could see during the games that my possible weak links were the defensive wingers but obviously without major money being invested I will have to stick with the squad I have and was wondering where you Cleon would maybe look to improve or is it more a case of not changing something that has worked pretty well in the first season.

I did we'll against most teams except the big 4 or 5 but did beat Man City at home although luckily but I did beat Liverpool at home convincingly and outplayed Man Utd at old Trafford but somehow managed to miss a lot of chances and lose 1 0.

As I say I can only be happy with the first season but would like to ask where I could maybe improve and maybe try to push Wigan on to higher places

Thankyou

[sapero]

Some time ago, I took my beloved Ajax as a fresh career in FM12. I was thinking about tactic and how to play to utilise my best players. Obviously Babel is one of them and with Teraquista and him as an Inside Forward was just brilliant to watch. Only issue I had with Siem de Jong playing deep lying playmaker on support as I feelt like Im not utilising his strenghts, when he was playing Cm on support or attack it was much better for him but the whole team was missing something. This ended up with me seling him to Sevilla. Anyway, thanks for great topic, I learned so much and FM is again very fun for me, from skipping matches on alt+tab to hours of tinkering tactics before and during matches! Now Im at my 3rd season, previous two I won Eredivisie and had a cracking time at Championsleague in Semi-Finals without any major transfers in first season. Thanks to Teraquista - Inside Forward combo Babel won top goal scorer twice, with 26 and 27 goals in league.

[paulinho]

I haven't played FM since 08/09 back in the days when I was the Spurs researcher & have not been on these forums since (I nearly got a life!, he he).

Great to see Cleon (always one of SI's best & most helpful contributors) taking an in depth look at Spurs & I shall be slowly making my way through this thread.

We should all be grateful to have such a thoughtful & dedicated geezer like Cleon around to make threads like these & more importantly patiently (mostly) replying to the constant queries from less experienced FM gamers.

I've got sucked back in to FM through playing FMH a bit on my ipad (couldn't resist it at a price of a couple of quid), a far less sophisticated version of the game of course (reminded me a bit of th way FM was back in the very early days when it was CM).

I'm wondering how the games compare tactically in that (ignoring the huge comparisons in detail) I've found that a 4231 (with WB's, CM's, AMC & IFW's far more effective a shape than a 41221 with a DMC.

The game has changed quite a bit a bit in my absence I'll have to get used to things like shouts & weather conditions.

lot's of reading to do before I can even get on with it!

[Colorado]

Hi all, sorry I'm not posting any screenshots - for some reason the site won't let me, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong (keep getting an error after uploading).

In a nutshell, I'm in the first season managing Olhanense in the Portuguese league. Expectations were to avoid relegation but by Christmas I'm second in the table and flying high. In January, I've gone on a run and just can't seem to win a game. Nothing has significantly changed in my approach/tactics/personnel but I can't seem to do anything to break this run.

I'm desperate to turn things around as I've never done so well in my first season - I'm happy to listen to ideas and accept that I may be doing things wrongly, however my tactics worked great for the first four months of the season.

I've also tried searching to find some relevant threads with the same problem but somehow can't find any.

[briz_lad]

Your teams reputation will of increased and as a result the AI will respect you more and change their tactics to counter yours. You need to adapt your tactic to show this or you will struggle

[Colorado]

Well whatever their doing different (can't see any difference at all from watching the games) it's working - I'm seven games without a win now. Just lost 1-0 to team just above relegation zone in 89th min, stats etc very even.

Any ideas what needs to be looked at? I'm really getting desperate now.

[Krum]

Check out Loversleaper approach for dealing with transition phases - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/347528-Tactical-Central-amp-Insight_FM13

[abhid30007]

Well whatever their doing different (can't see any difference at all from watching the games) it's working - I'm seven games without a win now. Just lost 1-0 to team just above relegation zone in 89th min, stats etc very even.

Any ideas what needs to be looked at? I'm really getting desperate now.

try playing ugly(counter, hassle, get stuck in, push higher up) game away from home to secure a draw to stop loosing streak and praise ur team for morale boost. Dont forget to put tackling hard and show on weaker foot to all opp mid and att players. At home play your natural game.

[tomtuck01]

try playing ugly(counter, hassle, get stuck in, push higher up) game away from home to secure a draw to stop loosing streak and praise ur team for morale boost. Dont forget to put tackling hard and show on weaker foot to all opp mid and att players. At home play your natural game.

A bit contradictory.

[Colorado]

The link in the thread a few posts was interesting although I'm yet to play since reading it. In my last game a 1-1 draw at home to a midtable team, I equalised and dominated late on by attacking. I think I need to be more aggressive at home. Away, I'm not so sure. I've tried countering and trying to ride the game out and be patient but it doesn't seem to work. Perhaps trying to dominate more will do the trick. After my next match I have Sporting and Benfica so I'm not expecting an instant turnaround!

[Colorado]

Tried playing counter against the mid-table team and was under wave after wave of attack with possession 70-30 in their favour, although it was still 0-0. After 30 mins, I changed to attacking and immediately won a string of corners and the game was notably being played more in their half. Second-half was again even (we continued to playing attacking) and they scored a late penalty but I manage to equalise late on.

[agentvinz]

When using counter strategy, sometimes I found it's hard to create chances if the opposition sit deep , because it mostly relies on the break to score. Also because counter is narrow, slow, and lots of time wasting, the opposition has all the time to get back to their shape to defend against when we have the ball. It's even more harder if we don't have fast players!

[tomtuck01]

When using counter strategy, sometimes I found it's hard to create chances if the opposition sit deep , because it mostly relies on the break to score. Also because counter is narrow, slow, and lots of time wasting, the opposition has all the time to get back to their shape to defend against when we have the ball. It's even more harder if we don't have fast players!

Then use some shouts to change things or have the sense to change strategy during the match, perhaps?

[Colorado]

I've played three games since, I won a League Cup semi-final against Braga before losing 2-1 to Sporting and Benfica but on both occasions was very much in the game possession-wise and in terms of chances. Playing more attacking and pressing more seems to be the way forward for me. I have a run of games against teams on level ability now, so will hopefully end my winless league run.

Sorry to bore everyone with my constant posts but it really was ruining my save at one point. I *think* now though, I've turned the corner.

[30.Beast]

Cleon-

I'm using your system as a template, with roughly the same player roles, in my Dortmund save. Sometimes I change the DLP for a BWM/S but otherwise it's very similar. I have to say that it is a complete grind. There's not much fluency, but since I dropped my devotion to counter attacking we've looked a bit more solid, despite not hanging onto leads.

My main issue however is that I cannot get Lewandowski scoring enough. One thing is he's in poor morale due to wanting to leave(as he wants to leave IRL too). He's on TQ duty, and although I'm pleased with his contribution of 4 assists and 6 goals in 12 games, I really need him to be on the scoresheet more as I'm drawing too much. His poor morale is making him fluff some chances, but the main problem is that not enough chances are being created for him. Do you think it worthwhile changing him to a DLF/A?

My set-up is like this;

--------GK----------

WB/A--CD/D--BPD/D--WB/A

-------DM/S--------

----DLP/S--AP/A

IF/S-------------IF/A

-------TQ-------------

As I said, the DLP sometimes becomes a BWM/S(Bender). I know that in your OP you said it's more about creating a smaller number of chances, but he's never there, and if he is there are too many opposition players around him. I want to get him another 20 goals in the next 22 games if possible

[30.Beast]

Lol, as soon as i write that, the next match he scores 3

[szp]

Cleon (and other tactical magicians), what do you think about 4-1-2-2-1 with different approach to FC role? I mean something like Chelsea with Drogba upfront. I'm trying to create something like that with my Leeds save. My setup:

GK-Kenny - GK/Defend

DR-Byram - WB/Support

DCR-Strandberg - BPD/Defend

DCL-Lees - DC/Defend

DL-White - WB/Attack

DM-Ekdal - DLP/Defend

CMR-Willy Hughes - CM/Attack (RWB set to often)

CML-Austin - BWM/Support

AMR-Redmond- Winger/Attack

AML-Diouf-IF/Support

FC-Tony Watt - AF/Attack or CF/Attack

I'd like the single FC to be more a scorer than a creator (opposite to your tactic with Treq). Watt is pretty fast, good in the air and has got decent finishing attribute. I thought that the zone before opposition's DC's could be attacked by CM and IF, who could provide some good through balls to striker. Also BWM can attack this zone to shoot from distance or arrive late in penalty area. The main threat from wide could come from Redmond, and White who should try to overlap IF/S. I set my DR (Byram) on support duty but gave him WB role, so he should go forward often then a typical fullback but rather not try to cross the ball from byline. He could be an alternative pass option for Redmond, who is often marked by two players, so he can pass the ball back to Byram, who is left unmarked and can cross the ball or move closer to the goal. I thought that DMC could be DLP. He will sit back, assecurate my pretty adventorous MC's but also collect the ball from defenders and try to start attack with passes to the wing or through the middle. I thin that Ekdal is perfect for this role - he's very good in tackling and marking, but also has got 15 in passing, creativity and 16 in teamwork. In some cases, for example when i'm facing much weaker opposition or a team without AMC, he could be even set on support duty to be more involved in attacking.

My main concern is about philosophy and mentality. My wide players are pretty fast, so counter-attacking could be good option. But sometimes my rivals don't seem to be interested in attackin me, so i don't have opportunity to launch a quick counter. In that case should I change mentality (f.e. to control or attack) or rather try to make some adjustments using shouts (higher pressing, run at defence ?)? Any advice will be very helpful for me.

[Cleon]

Cleon (and other tactical magicians), what do you think about 4-1-2-2-1 with different approach to FC role? I mean something like Chelsea with Drogba upfront. I'm trying to create something like that with my Leeds save. My setup:

GK-Kenny - GK/Defend

DR-Byram - WB/Support

DCR-Strandberg - BPD/Defend

DCL-Lees - DC/Defend

DL-White - WB/Attack

DM-Ekdal - DLP/Defend

CMR-Willy Hughes - CM/Attack (RWB set to often)

CML-Austin - BWM/Support

AMR-Redmond- Winger/Attack

AML-Diouf-IF/Support

FC-Tony Watt - AF/Attack or CF/Attack

I'd like the single FC to be more a scorer than a creator (opposite to your tactic with Treq). Watt is pretty fast, good in the air and has got decent finishing attribute. I thought that the zone before opposition's DC's could be attacked by CM and IF, who could provide some good through balls to striker. Also BWM can attack this zone to shoot from distance or arrive late in penalty area. The main threat from wide could come from Redmond, and White who should try to overlap IF/S. I set my DR (Byram) on support duty but gave him WB role, so he should go forward often then a typical fullback but rather not try to cross the ball from byline. He could be an alternative pass option for Redmond, who is often marked by two players, so he can pass the ball back to Byram, who is left unmarked and can cross the ball or move closer to the goal. I thought that DMC could be DLP. He will sit back, assecurate my pretty adventorous MC's but also collect the ball from defenders and try to start attack with passes to the wing or through the middle. I thin that Ekdal is perfect for this role - he's very good in tackling and marking, but also has got 15 in passing, creativity and 16 in teamwork. In some cases, for example when i'm facing much weaker opposition or a team without AMC, he could be even set on support duty to be more involved in attacking.

My main concern is about philosophy and mentality. My wide players are pretty fast, so counter-attacking could be good option. But sometimes my rivals don't seem to be interested in attackin me, so i don't have opportunity to launch a quick counter. In that case should I change mentality (f.e. to control or attack) or rather try to make some adjustments using shouts (higher pressing, run at defence ?)? Any advice will be very helpful for me.

Sorry for the late reply, I'd totally forgot about this thread :o

When teams sit deep against you you could try a number of things. You could look to either drop off more and hope you can pull them out of position. Or you could push higher up and pen them back even more. But in both cases you still need people who are making runs and are capable of breaking down the defence. If they are marking you and are tight, then try the pass into space shouts instead as it will mean they'll try through ball for the player to run onto. This can create space because someone will have to follow him and mark him.

I play counter attacking but for me its about using space that is created rather than starting fast relentless attacks.

[SJ234]

What is your view on having the central striker on attack?

[Cleon]

What is your view on having the central striker on attack?

Without actual details on the rest of the set up I'm not even going to try and answer

[SJ234]

I was talking generally as it is something I have fiddled about with curious results. Very strong against small teams poor in some of the big matches. I have been using Sk(d), fb(s), cd (x + c), wb (a); dm(d), ap (a), dlp (s); w (a), if(s), cf(a). In terms of the rest of it I have been wavering on philosophy between very fluid down to balanced. My view on it was that for it to work I need at least one support role on the wings. I am curious about what you think about what roles to use out wide and whether roles should be different in midfield.

[tomtuck01]

I was talking generally as it is something I have fiddled about with curious results. Very strong against small teams poor in some of the big matches. I have been using Sk(d), fb(s), cd (x + c), wb (a); dm(d), ap (a), dlp (s); w (a), if(s), cf(a). In terms of the rest of it I have been wavering on philosophy between very fluid down to balanced. My view on it was that for it to work I need at least one support role on the wings. I am curious about what you think about what roles to use out wide and whether roles should be different in midfield.

Personally I don't like having a central striker on the attack duty if there's no AMC behind him. I find that he doesn't get the required service and also that the two wide players aren't as effective as they could be with a striker on support bringing them into the game.

The duties you have with the roles all seem fine. Infact I've played more or less the same myself, with the exception of having my striker as a DLF - Support. I don't see why a CF - Support wouldn't work.

[SJ234]

Yeah that is what I am finding. It makes the much more unpredictable which I think is to do with the lack of link up play. Having said that it had seen Jovetic score a ridiculous amount of goals however only against the smaller teams.Having seen this. I was wondering about the 9 and a half and how to implement it as a possible half way house between the two options though that maybe the complete forward support.

[AnarchyAnt]

Cleon, thanks for the thread. Just the idea of what to look for while watching the first few minutes of the game has helped me immensely. With a VERY young team (3 of my starters came up from the under 18 squad and have silver stars for CA) I've managed a very successful run.

I have the same formation as you, but had to make some minor changes as Weston-super-mare doesn't exactly have "world-beaters" on the squad and no money to change. With 16 games to go in the season I am only 3 points out of first place against a team that only has 3 losses this year (2 of them to me!)

I'd also like to thank Lam for the tips on man marking as I was just using OIs to do this and I think it was causing more problems than I was trying to solve.

[davehibb]

Apologies in advance if this is something of a newbie question. For probably the past 4 or 5 version of the game I've simply downloaded plug and play tactics, without studying what it takes to set up bespoke tactics etc. so I'm playing catchup.

When setting up your squad an moulding/training players to fit your tactics how much notice do you guys take of the star ratings in coach reports? And do players get rated more highly if they have attributes that don't necessarily fit there position?

For instance, might a centre half that has say high finishing and crossing be rated higher than another centre half that doesn't but has the same defensive qualities? And am I right in thinking that a players star rating might decrease if you retrain him in a differen't position that better fits his attributes as it eats into his PA?

I'm also guessing that it's better to retrain players rather than simply play them out of position also?

When looking at players do you guys disregard their 'rating' per se so long as they have the attributes that fit your style of play?

This all sound like it should be in a how to understand you players thread, so apologies for that too.

Also, I love the idea of a libero system that works well in FM. What PPMs would be appropriate for a libero who strides out of defense to build attacks and link play higher up the field.

[AnarchyAnt]

When I take over a new team I use the CA star ratings to get a good base on where to start, but over the course of the preseason I start to draw my own conclusions on how people play in my system. As I mentioned before I have 3 starters on my side that have 4 silver stars for CA, but their play "fits" better.

I'm not sure about your other questions. CA definitely changes in coach reports based on the position they are playing (just go to the player screen and info and you can see star ratings per position) but I am not sure what abilities those are based on. It's a good question.

It HAS to be better to retrain than play out of position. I haven't had anyone complete a retrain yet so I can't say for sure, but I feel like it must.

I use ratings as a general way of ranking players. It catches the eye and reminds me who is who. When scouting at the lower leagues I am not going to buy a 1 star PA player no matter what his stats are. I look at the 4 and 5 star players and dig deeper into their stats. 1 or 2 stars and you are getting ignored by me. Not sure if that is how everyone does it, but I don't have the time to dig deep into EVERY player I need. Stars are a good way to see at a quick glance if I should even consider them.

I've already decided that if I don't get promoted I am going to create a libero system as a backup tactic just to try it out!

[tajj 7]

So I've started a new online game as Spurs as my mate is an Arsenal fan and chose them.

I'm using the same tactics that I developed using this thread and previously it managed to produce the kind of football in this video - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/334248-Understanding-Your-Tactic-The-Discussion?p=8576760&viewfull=1#post8576760 that I posted in this very thread.

Despite Spurs having better players than Saints, I'm struggling to replicate it. I'm particularly struggling to break down stubborn teams.

However I am wondering how big an effect the new to the team aspect is?

I've only played 9 games so far. I Think I've had 4 wins and 4 defeats beating Norwich 5-0, Everton 3-2. Man City 3-0 (away as well) and Bordeaux 2-1 away. (plus a 2-0 Cup win away at Newcastle with a B team)and then loosing 1-0 to WBA, 1-0 to Chelsea, 1-0 to Anzhi and 4-1 to Newcastle.

Leaving the Newcastle game aside (where they scored pretty much every chance and my whole team played badly) the other 3 defeats followed the same pattern, I had decent possession but struggled to create chances.

Add in the fact that Bale plus my new signings Ayew and Jovetic have been injured pretty much since game one, will my team settle down a bit and become a bit more consistent once they have got used to me, the new tactics and new players?

I use the Pochettino inspired shouts similar to what Cleon outlines at the start of this thread pushing up high, hassling to win the ball back high up the pitch. With a quick defensive line and probably the best sweeper keeper in the game it seemed like a good fit for Spurs. Are there some tweaks try without dramatically altering my style that will help against deeper defensive teams?

[Wes_Coulam]

Finally home after 7 months at Sea Got the latest update i'm just wondering is the tactic and shouts in the OP still effective in the latest patch as it was in the first?

P.S. Hello again forums :-)

[Cleon]

Finally home after 7 months at Sea Got the latest update i'm just wondering is the tactic and shouts in the OP still effective in the latest patch as it was in the first?

P.S. Hello again forums :-)

Well the tactic in the OP is more about understanding why it works rather than copying it exactly. It's more based on how and why it worked. But yes, nothing should have changed.