Understanding Your Tactic - The Discussion

[misterawesome]

I'm really struggling to get my changes to take hold. Rather the flood this forum, I'm going to lay out my struggles in a separate post.

[Cleon]

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what the right combo would be. Could you do a DLP-S and DLP-D? Is it advisable to have one Defend role and one Support role, or could you do two Defend or two Support?

In a post above (#1166 - I'll save on re-posting so as not to cause unnecessary scrolling), I have posts of two players I am trying to utilize in my squad - Sanchez and Fellaini.

I've tutored Sanchez with Hamsik, and his technical skills seem suited to a DLP role (I had been playing him as an AP), based on what i've read from the "Planning Ahead" post (thanks for that). I'm thinking of tutoring him with Fellaini next to improve some of his mental attributes.

Speaking of Fellaini, his skills seem very broad. He can slot in as a DMC, MC and probably AMC. How easily can I move him around without unsettling him? I'd prefer to play him in a MC role, but could also see him playing as an AMC against teams with a tough DMC.

I really like the double DLP combo, I think I mentioned it in this thread. It offers the defensive stability and they tend to hold their positions quite well

[stevedavis]

If using a 4-4-2 formation, flat, 2 banks of 4, FB (A), 2 CD (D), FB (S), W (S), CM (D), CM (S), W (A), DLF (S), AF (A) - I have some questions regarding team marking settings?

If using a top 6 EPL team, with the above settings, what would be the most effective Marking settings to use? My players have fairly high tackling, marking, anticipation, decisions, concentration, positioning, aggression and bravery (stats I prioritise for my defenders and central midfielders, mostly 14+ in all catagories) compared to divisional average. What would be the best marking settings to use? Which is more effective with this formation and good defensive players - Zonal or Man or a mixture depending on position? Which settings would you use?

Could you provide some info on this please? Thank you.

[Cleon]

If using a 4-4-2 formation, flat, 2 banks of 4, FB (A), 2 CD (D), FB (S), W (S), CM (D), CM (S), W (A), DLF (S), AF (A) - I have some questions regarding team marking settings?

If using a top 6 EPL team, with the above settings, what would be the most effective Marking settings to use? My players have fairly high tackling, marking, anticipation, decisions, concentration, positioning, aggression and bravery (stats I prioritise for my defenders and central midfielders, mostly 14+ in all catagories) compared to divisional average. What would be the best marking settings to use? Which is more effective with this formation and good defensive players - Zonal or Man or a mixture depending on position? Which settings would you use?

Could you provide some info on this please? Thank you.

Zonal for the reasons pointed out in this thread;

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/334646-Zonal-vs-Man-marking

[stevedavis]

Hi Cleon, thank you for pointing me in the direction of this thread, I'd not seen it before. Many thanks for your reply. Will have a read and start using Zonal for this formation.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon, thank you for pointing me in the direction of this thread, I'd not seen it before. Many thanks for your reply. Will have a read and start using Zonal for this formation.

Np mate glad to help

I'd actually forgot about this thread, how bad is that?

[misterawesome]

MA - now that I have seen the team, I'd be massively tempted to use Hamsik as the striker!!! In fact I have been trying to purchase him as my TQ in the FC role for a season or two now, but refuse to pay over 20m for someone his age.

I went back and forth on this, Lam, and I'm gonna try it. I have a lot of attacking options on my squad. And rather than spend another 20mil on yet another striker, I wanted to try to retrain some of my existing players. I am going to be retraining Hamsik as a DLF, as well as another AMC that I had out on loan:

What would suggest as PPMs for a DLF as a lone striker? I'm assuming comes deep to get ball. Should I also have them learn to play one-twos? Anything else?

[Cleon]

I actually have Rafinha on this saved game. I wanted Hamsik as my Treq but Neymar was more affordable for me at the time.

PPM's for a DLF that I'd have them learn would be plays with back to goal, comes deep to get ball, plays one twos and dictates tempo to start with.

[misterawesome]

Thanks, Cleon. I've moved Hamsik up from an MC to an AMC to a ST so he's picked up quite a few PPMs along the way. A couple of questions about these guys as I go.

While Hamsik and Rafinha are training to be strikers, can I also be playing them up top during matches? Both are currently "ineffectual," but I have been playing Hamsik as a DLF in friendlies, thinking this would accelerate this learning. He's been great so far...but they're friendlies. I ask because if I can play these guys straight away, I'll have some guys I can sell/loan out. Conversely, I don't want to be left with one true striker if the two new guys are feeling out the position for most of the season.

If I wanted to use Hamsik as a tutor based on his strong mental attributes, will he only impact striker attributes? Or can I use him to tutor MC-DLPs, AMCs, etc?

[Cleon]

Playing them in the position you are training them speeds up the proccess yeah so carry on doing it

[briz_lad]

I have been following this thread closely through its entire thirteen pages to date and thought it was time to add my own two cents to it. Everything I have done has a simple logical reason behind it. A lot of people come on here complaining about tactics. When they show what they have done, most of the time they have over complicated things and do things which are totally illogical.

I started off a save with West Brom and decided that it would be the perfect club to mould in to the way I want to play football. I knew it would take me time to implement my own style and get the players in to play it. My tactics have morphed over time to what they are now which suits the players I have and what I will stick with when bringing in youth players.

I started out with a 4-1-2-2-1 formation playing with a counter attacking style and a balanced approach. This gave me a chance to compete against the clubs who had better players than me and push myself up the table. This tactic suited the players I had available at the time but I wanted to play in a different way once time passed. I wanted to be more of an attacking side when playing at home so I went about acquring players capable of doing this who would eventually take over from my other players. The change of formation over time which I'll talk about in a minute came about when problems occured with this tactic as it didn't quite work in the way I wanted it to.

Ignore the players in the positions this is just to show the tactic and the players roles I used.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This tactic served me well but I didn’t feel my centre midfielder was as effective as he could be. I wanted him to get forward and score goals but that didn’t quite work out so I had to decide whether to change his role or move his position on the pitch. I decided he should be pushed in to an attacking midfield position as I was using Adryan there at the time and he plays better as an attacking midfielder.

As I now had a stronger squad of players and a change of position on the pitch I wanted to change my approach to the game to be more of a dominant attacking force at home. I went for an attacking approach and a fluid style to encourage more of my players to be involved in my attacks.

I decided I needed to give one of my fullbacks an attacking mentality to give myself more options. As I play with an inside forward on the right I felt it made more tactical sense to make my right back the one with the attacking mentality. The plan was to help expose the space left on the outside of the pitch once my inside forward had dragged the fullback across the pitch. A very simple logical step to make. This has added a totally different aspect to my side as an attacking force. This has given my inside forward more space as the fullback doesn’t know whether to pick him up or my advanced fullback.

As my fullback is more attacking I moved my defensive midfielder across onto the right hand side of the defensive midfield positions. This enables him to fill that space left by my fullback if we lose the ball and the opposition counter at pace. Again this makes sense as it’s a waste of time having him on the left side as he will have a greater distance to cover to get across to the right had side. This helps me to be more solid defensively as the tactic is very attack minded.

To compensate for moving my centre midfielder up to the attacking midfield position I changed my DLP from a support role to a defend role. I also edited his mentality to have him sit even further back on the pitch to give myself greater cover defensively. This also gives him more space to create from a deep position. If the opposition clear the ball it will often fall to either my defensive midfielder or my DLP who can then restart my attacks.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I also changed my DLF to a support role as I felt it would be better if he dropped even deeper to give my two wide men the space to get in behind the defence. This has worked fantastically as both my wide men have become more involved in the game. This has led to my winger getting in to double figures for both seasons since I have employed this tactic. With my inside forward cutting inside my winger has been able to pull off the fullback and get plenty of one on one opportunities. All of this gives him more space to play in my wide men. He may not get loads of assists but he will get plenty of key passes leading up to goals. This my my tactic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

All of this is about creating space and pulling the opposition defence and midfield around to create space for others. Each players role links together to optimise the space created by each other. I'm pleased with how this tactic works at home as it gives me dominance over the opposition, even though it's very attacking I'm still solidly in defence which is something I think is important especially in games when you play the top sides in the division. This gives you atleast a chance to get something out of the game.

In my first season with this tactic I played it both home and away and its safe to say that away from home it was a disaster. I ended up losing thirteen away matches. I knew I needed to change the way I played away from home. I changed my approach to counter with a balanced approach as this gave me a better balanced team. As the home team tends to take more chances at home I was often pushed onto the back foot and with so many of my forward players out of position I was punished. Here are the team instructions for my away tactic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is by no means perfect and I’m sure people like cleon and lam could think of things to improve this. Most importantly this tactic is built around MY team which is why it works. The most important thing you can do is mould a tactic to suit your squad of players.

[Cleon]

@briz - Nice post mate. It's not often someone says they use logic to create tactics then actually post something that is logical. I like how you've moulded the tactic to suit your team and get the best out of them. You also seem to understand the importance of the roles and how they work to create the style of play you want to play. And you actually knew you had an issue with the away form and attempted to fix it. Not often I see posts like that, great work

[Babak G]

I have been following this thread closely through its entire thirteen pages to date and thought it was time to add my own two cents to it. Everything I have done has a simple logical reason behind it. A lot of people come on here complaining about tactics. When they show what they have done, most of the time they have over complicated things and do things which are totally illogical.

I started off a save with West Brom and decided that it would be the perfect club to mould in to the way I want to play football. I knew it would take me time to implement my own style and get the players in to play it. My tactics have morphed over time to what they are now which suits the players I have and what I will stick with when bringing in youth players.

I started out with a 4-1-2-2-1 formation playing with a counter attacking style and a balanced approach. This gave me a chance to compete against the clubs who had better players than me and push myself up the table. This tactic suited the players I had available at the time but I wanted to play in a different way once time passed. I wanted to be more of an attacking side when playing at home so I went about acquring players capable of doing this who would eventually take over from my other players. The change of formation over time which I'll talk about in a minute came about when problems occured with this tactic as it didn't quite work in the way I wanted it to.

Ignore the players in the positions this is just to show the tactic and the players roles I used.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This tactic served me well but I didn’t feel my centre midfielder was as effective as he could be. I wanted him to get forward and score goals but that didn’t quite work out so I had to decide whether to change his role or move his position on the pitch. I decided he should be pushed in to an attacking midfield position as I was using Adryan there at the time and he plays better as an attacking midfielder.

As I now had a stronger squad of players and a change of position on the pitch I wanted to change my approach to the game to be more of a dominant attacking force at home. I went for an attacking approach and a fluid style to encourage more of my players to be involved in my attacks.

I decided I needed to give one of my fullbacks an attacking mentality to give myself more options. As I play with an inside forward on the right I felt it made more tactical sense to make my right back the one with the attacking mentality. The plan was to help expose the space left on the outside of the pitch once my inside forward had dragged the fullback across the pitch. A very simple logical step to make. This has added a totally different aspect to my side as an attacking force. This has given my inside forward more space as the fullback doesn’t know whether to pick him up or my advanced fullback.

As my fullback is more attacking I moved my defensive midfielder across onto the right hand side of the defensive midfield positions. This enables him to fill that space left by my fullback if we lose the ball and the opposition counter at pace. Again this makes sense as it’s a waste of time having him on the left side as he will have a greater distance to cover to get across to the right had side. This helps me to be more solid defensively as the tactic is very attack minded.

To compensate for moving my centre midfielder up to the attacking midfield position I changed my DLP from a support role to a defend role. I also edited his mentality to have him sit even further back on the pitch to give myself greater cover defensively. This also gives him more space to create from a deep position. If the opposition clear the ball it will often fall to either my defensive midfielder or my DLP who can then restart my attacks.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I also changed my DLF to a support role as I felt it would be better if he dropped even deeper to give my two wide men the space to get in behind the defence. This has worked fantastically as both my wide men have become more involved in the game. This has led to my winger getting in to double figures for both seasons since I have employed this tactic. With my inside forward cutting inside my winger has been able to pull off the fullback and get plenty of one on one opportunities. All of this gives him more space to play in my wide men. He may not get loads of assists but he will get plenty of key passes leading up to goals. This my my tactic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

All of this is about creating space and pulling the opposition defence and midfield around to create space for others. Each players role links together to optimise the space created by each other. I'm pleased with how this tactic works at home as it gives me dominance over the opposition, even though it's very attacking I'm still solidly in defence which is something I think is important especially in games when you play the top sides in the division. This gives you atleast a chance to get something out of the game.

In my first season with this tactic I played it both home and away and its safe to say that away from home it was a disaster. I ended up losing thirteen away matches. I knew I needed to change the way I played away from home. I changed my approach to counter with a balanced approach as this gave me a better balanced team. As the home team tends to take more chances at home I was often pushed onto the back foot and with so many of my forward players out of position I was punished. Here are the team instructions for my away tactic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is by no means perfect and I’m sure people like cleon and lam could think of things to improve this. Most importantly this tactic is built around MY team which is why it works. The most important thing you can do is mould a tactic to suit your squad of players.

Great step by step approach towards building a tactic. Just wondering how the Trequartista and DLF are working? I'd assume they are playing in the same space.

[Babak G]

I have been following this thread closely through its entire thirteen pages to date and thought it was time to add my own two cents to it. Everything I have done has a simple logical reason behind it. A lot of people come on here complaining about tactics. When they show what they have done, most of the time they have over complicated things and do things which are totally illogical.

I started off a save with West Brom and decided that it would be the perfect club to mould in to the way I want to play football. I knew it would take me time to implement my own style and get the players in to play it. My tactics have morphed over time to what they are now which suits the players I have and what I will stick with when bringing in youth players.

I started out with a 4-1-2-2-1 formation playing with a counter attacking style and a balanced approach. This gave me a chance to compete against the clubs who had better players than me and push myself up the table. This tactic suited the players I had available at the time but I wanted to play in a different way once time passed. I wanted to be more of an attacking side when playing at home so I went about acquring players capable of doing this who would eventually take over from my other players. The change of formation over time which I'll talk about in a minute came about when problems occured with this tactic as it didn't quite work in the way I wanted it to.

Ignore the players in the positions this is just to show the tactic and the players roles I used.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This tactic served me well but I didn’t feel my centre midfielder was as effective as he could be. I wanted him to get forward and score goals but that didn’t quite work out so I had to decide whether to change his role or move his position on the pitch. I decided he should be pushed in to an attacking midfield position as I was using Adryan there at the time and he plays better as an attacking midfielder.

As I now had a stronger squad of players and a change of position on the pitch I wanted to change my approach to the game to be more of a dominant attacking force at home. I went for an attacking approach and a fluid style to encourage more of my players to be involved in my attacks.

I decided I needed to give one of my fullbacks an attacking mentality to give myself more options. As I play with an inside forward on the right I felt it made more tactical sense to make my right back the one with the attacking mentality. The plan was to help expose the space left on the outside of the pitch once my inside forward had dragged the fullback across the pitch. A very simple logical step to make. This has added a totally different aspect to my side as an attacking force. This has given my inside forward more space as the fullback doesn’t know whether to pick him up or my advanced fullback.

As my fullback is more attacking I moved my defensive midfielder across onto the right hand side of the defensive midfield positions. This enables him to fill that space left by my fullback if we lose the ball and the opposition counter at pace. Again this makes sense as it’s a waste of time having him on the left side as he will have a greater distance to cover to get across to the right had side. This helps me to be more solid defensively as the tactic is very attack minded.

To compensate for moving my centre midfielder up to the attacking midfield position I changed my DLP from a support role to a defend role. I also edited his mentality to have him sit even further back on the pitch to give myself greater cover defensively. This also gives him more space to create from a deep position. If the opposition clear the ball it will often fall to either my defensive midfielder or my DLP who can then restart my attacks.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I also changed my DLF to a support role as I felt it would be better if he dropped even deeper to give my two wide men the space to get in behind the defence. This has worked fantastically as both my wide men have become more involved in the game. This has led to my winger getting in to double figures for both seasons since I have employed this tactic. With my inside forward cutting inside my winger has been able to pull off the fullback and get plenty of one on one opportunities. All of this gives him more space to play in my wide men. He may not get loads of assists but he will get plenty of key passes leading up to goals. This my my tactic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

All of this is about creating space and pulling the opposition defence and midfield around to create space for others. Each players role links together to optimise the space created by each other. I'm pleased with how this tactic works at home as it gives me dominance over the opposition, even though it's very attacking I'm still solidly in defence which is something I think is important especially in games when you play the top sides in the division. This gives you atleast a chance to get something out of the game.

In my first season with this tactic I played it both home and away and its safe to say that away from home it was a disaster. I ended up losing thirteen away matches. I knew I needed to change the way I played away from home. I changed my approach to counter with a balanced approach as this gave me a better balanced team. As the home team tends to take more chances at home I was often pushed onto the back foot and with so many of my forward players out of position I was punished. Here are the team instructions for my away tactic

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This is by no means perfect and I’m sure people like cleon and lam could think of things to improve this. Most importantly this tactic is built around MY team which is why it works. The most important thing you can do is mould a tactic to suit your squad of players.

Great step by step approach towards building a tactic. Just wondering how the Trequartista and DLF are working? I'd assume they are playing in the same space.

[Cleon]

Great step by step approach towards building a tactic. Just wondering how the Trequartista and DLF are working? I'd assume they are playing in the same space.

If they both have great teamwork/workrate/decisions then they should work well together and occupy different space.

[Ampalaea4]

Hi Cleon and thank you for this thread I have a question regarding player attributes. First of all, I play a flat 4-4-2 with balance philosophy and all settings to default except marking that I have it zonal. I use combo shouts to play how I want depending the situation. My format is

Goalkeeper

Full back(auto) - Ball playing defender(defend) - Limited Defender(defend) - Full back(auto)

Winger(attack) - Ball winning Midfielder(defend) - Central Midfielder(support) - Winger(attack)

Deep lying forward(support) - Poacher(attack)

If my opponent is much weaker than me, I put a more attacking/technical player in the central midfielder position and play him as advanced forward. The shouts I use is:

Home match - favorites - good weather: attacking strategy

Play out of defense, Push Higher up, pass to feet, work ball into box, play through defense, look for overlap, retain possession

Home match - favorites - bad weather/rain - or against team that outnumber me in midfield: attacking strategy

Play out of defense, pass into space, play wider, run at defense, look for overlap, get ball forward, exploit the flanks

Away matches: Counter strategy

Drop deeper, stay on feet, pass into space, Run at defense, work ball into box

I have good players that have the required attributes to play for their role and usually I am doing fine. I would like to ask you(and all fellow managers) what would you change in my tactic/shouts/player roles and in what situation. also the other problem I have is that my wingers make lot of long shots while they do have passing options and usually to my poacher, but it seems they always chose to shot instead to give the easy pass that will give my poacher a ccc. My wingers have good to excellent creativity - decisions - teamwork and have their long shots set to rarelly(work ball into box also does the same thing and I have it in all my shout combos). Then I thought it must be a high flair problem but their flair is not such high I can lower their creative freedom but then I do not want to narrow their play. I have also tried to put my poacher as target man and supply run onto ball since he is very quick but still too many long shots. As I said, they have passing options and easy ones..They have the creativity to see those passes, they have the decisions to chose those passes and also they have the teamwork to play whats best for team rather than themeselves

Anyway, this is the problem I get with my tactic, too many long shots and my poacher don't get many passes (he has very good anticipation, off the ball, decisions to put himself in a good position to receive passes and also has the PPM to move into channels). Also, if there is any tweaks to do to make my tactic even better, I would appreciate it

[Cleon]

I have good players that have the required attributes to play for their role and usually I am doing fine. I would like to ask you(and all fellow managers) what would you change in my tactic/shouts/player roles and in what situation

I'm not really sure because I don't play this way. Everything I do is based on how the game is going. But after having a quick look why do you play out from the back in bad weather? Surely you'd want them to see less of the ball?

Also pass to feet/space I tend to mix it up depending on how my attackers are been marked. If the opposition are tight marking with them and not allowing them space then I pass to space so they can run onto the balls and create space. I do the reverse the other way around, so lose marking would make me pass to feet and so on.

also the other problem I have is that my wingers make lot of long shots while they do have passing options and usually to my poacher, but it seems they always chose to shot instead to give the easy pass that will give my poacher a ccc. My wingers have good to excellent creativity - decisions - teamwork and have their long shots set to rarelly(work ball into box also does the same thing and I have it in all my shout combos).

There is a bug where players will shoot more often than they should. But your issue could still be tactical especially as you use a poacher. They are quite static and don't move around as much as other strikers because their role is to play on the shoulder or a defender meaning he doesn't have space and isn't a viable option for a cross at times.

[Ampalaea4]

then I will try to play him as advanced Forward instead...but the truth is that my poacher always give a pass choice...in a scenario that happens often, my winger runs with the ball the opposition area. once hea reach just out of the line of the opposition area he drags a defender onto him.at this time, my poacher is just right to him alone and ready to receive the pass but my winger decides to make a shot 9 out of 10 times...I hope this is a bug cause I don't know what else to do..I ll make some moves , like playing one of my wingers as support in order to lower his runs with the ball and make him play more through balls.

As for the "play out of defense" in the bad weather, I know it doesn't make sense but when my goalkeeper kicking the ball forward, 9 out of 10 times I lose the possession. My team is overal a technical but short team and I lose lot of balls in the air. Also since I have a Ball playing defender I thought is better my GK give him the ball so he can play it forward. Unless if playing out of defense has nothing to do with the goalkeeper distribution and I am confused here..

[Cleon]

then I will try to play him as advanced Forward instead...but the truth is that my poacher always give a pass choice...in a scenario that happens often, my winger runs with the ball the opposition area. once hea reach just out of the line of the opposition area he drags a defender onto him.at this time, my poacher is just right to him alone and ready to receive the pass but my winger decides to make a shot 9 out of 10 times...I hope this is a bug cause I don't know what else to do..I ll make some moves , like playing one of my wingers as support in order to lower his runs with the ball and make him play more through balls.

As for the "play out of defense" in the bad weather, I know it doesn't make sense but when my goalkeeper kicking the ball forward, 9 out of 10 times I lose the possession. My team is overal a technical but short team and I lose lot of balls in the air. Also since I have a Ball playing defender I thought is better my GK give him the ball so he can play it forward. Unless if playing out of defense has nothing to do with the goalkeeper distribution and I am confused here..

Play Out of Defence –It will instruct any player with a defensive duty (midfield and defence) to play shorter passes. So it reduces passing. It’s worth using this if you find that these players are just hoofing the ball forward and giving possession away cheaply.

So this will affect more than just your keeper and defenders.

[briz_lad]

@briz - Nice post mate. It's not often someone says they use logic to create tactics then actually post something that is logical. I like how you've moulded the tactic to suit your team and get the best out of them. You also seem to understand the importance of the roles and how they work to create the style of play you want to play. And you actually knew you had an issue with the away form and attempted to fix it. Not often I see posts like that, great work

Cheers Cleon. It's frustrating to see come on here and moan about tactics when they don't understand what they are doing. If people don't mould the tactics they see on here to suit there own team they won't work. This thread has been brilliant and given me different ideas on how to play. Never paid much attention to using a winger in this formation before as I would of just used to IF's but this gives me a different angle to my attack.

Great step by step approach towards building a tactic. Just wondering how the Trequartista and DLF are working? I'd assume they are playing in the same space.

As Cleon said they are intelligent enough to take up different poisitions on the pitch. As they both drop deeper it gives the opposition defence a problem as often a defender will come out to pick up my DLF and my trequarista can float into the space left and play passes inbetween the defence for my two wide men.

[Cleon]

Cheers Cleon. It's frustrating to see come on here and moan about tactics when they don't understand what they are doing. If people don't mould the tactics they see on here to suit there own team they won't work. This thread has been brilliant and given me different ideas on how to play. Never paid much attention to using a winger in this formation before as I would of just used to IF's but this gives me a different angle to my attack.

As Cleon said they are intelligent enough to take up different poisitions on the pitch. As they both drop deeper it gives the opposition defence a problem as often a defender will come out to pick up my DLF and my trequarista can float into the space left and play passes inbetween the defence for my two wide men.

Do you have a main scorer in the side? or is it pretty even?

[briz_lad]

Do you have a main scorer in the side? or is it pretty even?

It tends to be pritty even, Destro my DLF was top scorer with 16. I had another two of my players both hit double figures and the rest evenly spread out. Whoever plays as my winger tends to get more goals than my IF though. I think a lot of this comes down to me changing the team around trying to give my youngsters a chance so my more experienced players don't spend as long on the pitch as they would normally.

[Bruce Drundrige]

I've been playing a similar 4-1-2-2-1 as the OP and very grateful for this thread as I've never *quite* been able to get it work the way I'd like, but it's now working extremely well. I started witha Treq in the SC position but now mostly play with a DLF (s). I play with the AML as a Winger, and the AMR as an IF both on attack and both playing on the same side as their strongest foot, but this was more to do with personnel available than anything else.

As per @briz_lad's post above it was my Left Winger who ended the season as my top scorer, the goals were fairly well spreadout amongst the AML/AMR and the two guys who played SC throughout the season but the AML was way out in front, got lots of assists and was the Division Player of the year. And my AssMan's rating of him is 2 stars...

[TimEdwins7]

I'm playing a normal 4-4-2, Balanced and Counter or Standard. With a Complete Forward / Support and Poacher / Attack up front, I'm wondering people's thoughts about whether it's worth setting the Poacher as a Target Man with the Run Onto Ball supply?

[Farina]

The philosophies are mentality and creative freedom structures. They range from being very structured with low creative freedom, to being very unstructured with lots of creative freedom. A useful interpretation would be as follows:

Very Rigid: Each player is given a job and is supposed to stick to it (usually 5+ different roles across a team)

Rigid: Players are assigned a job that contributes to a specific element of play (Defence, defence & transition, transition & attack, attack)

Balanced: Players focus on their duty (Defend, Support, Attack)

Fluid: Players are given instructions to focus on defence or attack

Very Fluid: Players contribute to all aspects of play

As you can see, each step reduces the level of specialisation. At Very Rigid, you have five different roles, Rigid four responsibilities, Balanced three duties, Fluid two focuses, Very Fluid one method. In Very Rigid philosophies, you expect players to stick to their role, so can assign multiple specialist roles. In Very Fluid philosophies, you expect everybody to do a bit of everything, which means specialist roles are redundant.

Very interesting, but this sounds a bit abstract to me. Could you give a practical example to illustrate the difference between philosophies?

[Cleon]

I'm playing a normal 4-4-2, Balanced and Counter or Standard. With a Complete Forward / Support and Poacher / Attack up front, I'm wondering people's thoughts about whether it's worth setting the Poacher as a Target Man with the Run Onto Ball supply?

What is making you think of changing it? Do you have the players who are able to pick out the target man? Do you have players who will be able to support quick enough when he is holding the ball up? Do you have players/roles/duties in your tactic that allow for runners to run off the target man and get beyond him?

[Cleon]

Very interesting, but this sounds a bit abstract to me. Could you give a practical example to illustrate the difference between philosophies?

I'm not sure how you mean? It tells you which phases of play the players would be involved in, if I showed you an ingame example it would only show you the same. So I'm unsure what you are actually asking for.

[TimEdwins7]

What is making you think of changing it? Do you have the players who are able to pick out the target man? Do you have players who will be able to support quick enough when he is holding the ball up? Do you have players/roles/duties in your tactic that allow for runners to run off the target man and get beyond him?

Interesting points, I was thinking of doing it with the view of trying to get the ball behind the opposition back 4 for the Poacher to run onto and have a 1 on 1 chance.

This is my tactic:

[Farina]

I'm not sure how you mean? It tells you which phases of play the players would be involved in, if I showed you an ingame example it would only show you the same. So I'm unsure what you are actually asking for.

But what do you mean in practice with phases of play?

[Seagullfan]

But what do you mean in practice with phases of play?

The only thing that the change in philiosophy affects is the mentality and creative freedom of the player ( and some closing down ) but not other things like runs from deep, run with ball etc. So by changing the mentality you will affect where the player is positioned and how much he will decide to pass in an attacking or defensive way. By changing his creative freedom you are letting him have more of a say in how close he sticks to your instructions or makes decision himself. So from very rigid "you will play at full back and stay there because I said so" to very fluid " Ok you will play at full back but I want you to decide when to defend and attack as the game flows"

If you look in the tactics creator and just change the philosophy you should see how this works.

I think my description is fairly accurate but I am not so sure I have made it any clearer for you :-)...or me for that matter!

[Farina]

Yes, I've noticed that philosophies affect mentality and creative freedom (and some closing down as well?). Here's the thing though, a wide midfielder/winger has a certain mentality with a rigid philosophy in a counterattacking strategy, making him responsible for "transition & attack". In an attacking strategy the centerback will have that mentality*, but this time it makes him responsible for "defence". The same mentality but a different function?

*More or less: I don't recall the exact mentality values, but I shouldn't be too far off.

[timbo1983]

Hi Guys,

I have been reading this post for the last 6 months, often over and over again, and have tried to put into practise everything I have read in this (and other) posts. I always play with Everton on FM, and this season I was really looking forward to it with a slightly better squad than any other season (despite the severe lack of transfer funds).

Anyway, I am beyond frustrated. I first starting out by downloading tactic and before any of the patches a couple of them worked pretty well. I then decided that I wanted my team to play more like the actual Everton, with the interplay between Pienaar and Baines on the left, and Mirallas and Coleman on the right. I designed some sort of weird assymetric tactic which worked really well in my first season (and after reading this and other posts I was really pleased). However, once the patches came into play, this tactic no longer worked.

Since then, I have literally tried every sort of tactic I can think of. After not being able to successfully implement a tactic that used Fellaini as a second striker I decided to "admit I had a problem" and deviate from what I usually do to try and get some joy out of the game - so far to no avail. Over the last 2-3 months I have started multiple games (always with Everton), each time with a different plan in mind as to how I wanted my players to play, based on what didn't work in previous saves. But I am now at a dead-end. I can't post pictures of all the different tactics/formations I have tried (as there are so many) and not one of them seems to work for longer than 5 games.

I am now at my wits end, so I am looking for any help you guys are able to give me. Here are some of the problems I am experiencing, and also what I would like to achieve:

- I want my tactic to be similar to Everton's IRL tactic. However I cannot find a way to play Piennar/Mirallas as AML/AMR and have Coleman and Baines pushing forward, without them just ending up in each others space. No matter what roles I give them they end up double or triple teamed, 2 feet apart near the byline. If they do manage to get a cross in then they are already at the byline, and by this stage the one or two players in my box are double or triple teamed by the time the ball comes in.

- I cannot get my wide players to run through defenders, yet am constantly carved up by this by the opposition (from Man Utd and Nani to reading and Robson-Kanu). The opposition wide players seem to be able to dribble the length of the pitch AND put in an accurate cross amlost 100% of the time, no matter whether they are closely marked, or set to be closed down regularly and shown onto weaker foot. The amount of goals I concede this way beggars belief. Yet someone like Baines will end up stopping on the ball, and turning his back away from the defender and just losing out - despite his high dribbling, technique and crossing attributes.

- In games where my team has played well, we have hit the woodwork 3-4 times, had 3-4 ccc's and 6-7 half chances - the other team can go forward and have a total of 4 shots on goal and the final score will be 3-3. This is largely down to my above issue of being torn apart by opposition wingers, but not getting the same output from my own wide players.

- Jelavic is just terrible in this game, he misses CCC's at will. I cannot find a role that works for him.

- My team consistently takes longshots, even when there are other options available, and I have set all their long shots bars to 0 and also used the shout "work ball into box".

- Also, a question I see on here consistently which I have never actually seen answered is what to look for in opposition scouting reports as well during the match, and how much should i change my tactics based on this. I mean, when I see my players having no time on the ball I use "pass into space" however it does nothing.

- I can win the first 15 minutes of a game convincingly, albeit without scoring a goal, but be in total control, and then the next 30 minutes concede 3 goals without any discernible difference in the way either team is playing, except for the other team suddenly got better (as stupid as that sounds)

- I cannot create a consistent tactic, anyone that seems to be going well can lead to me beating United 3-1, and then losing to Reading 3-0 when both teams play the exact same formation and appear to have similar philosophies.

I just cannot get my head around this version of the game and it has become so frustrating that there are occassions where I have literally almost picked up my laptop and thrown it across the room in rage, instead I just get cranky with my missus - lol. And it is clearly not impossible as I see constant threads of people being in my situation and turning it around.

All I want to achieve is some wide play, with constant crosses coming into the box onto the head of Fellaini and/or Jelavic, with Osman or Barkley in and around the box also, and with Gibson behind the play with the two central defenders so a 4-2-3-1, however I just cannot seem to do this. I am also frustrated as during a game I have no idea how to change what is happening. When I win I have no idea why I won compared to other similar games against similar teams that I lost. How do I combat the oppositions marauding wide players, while also taking advantage of my own?

Anyway, perhaps I should just start my own specialised "******" thread as clearly I need help in every aspect of this version of FM. But any help you guys can give me in the meantime I would definitely appreciate and take on board.

Cheers......

[Falahk]

with Everton I think I would go with something like this:

Fluid

Defensive

press more

zonal marking

offside trap on

counter attack on

long shot for all players that have those manually tweaked to rare

GK: Sweeper/attack (delivery set to none specific defender collect, passing length set 3 notches away from shortest): Howard

DR: Fullback/defend: Hibbo

DCr: CB/defend: Jags

DCl: CB/defend: Distin

DL: Wingback/attack: Bains

DMC: Anchorman/defend: Heitinga

MCr: Advanced Playmaker/attack: Fellaini

MCl: DLP/support: Gibson

AMR: Winger/attack: Mirallas

STC: Trequartista/attack: Jelavic

AML: Inside Forward/attack: Naismith

I would rotate Pinaar/Osman in on cm (and also consider to train one of them to play central striker), while barkley and anichebe would go on the wings if needed, this would just be a basic frame work, it may or may not work (chances are it would since its pretty logical for the most part) but it could provide a starting point for you timbo

[Cleon]

But what do you mean in practice with phases of play?

Its shown in the OP how changing strategy changes mentality etc.

[Farina]

Its shown in the OP how changing strategy changes mentality etc.

Yes, it's in the quote of yours I posted as well. I'm just having some trouble understanding the reasoning behind the frameworks and the descriptions that go with them. A WM would have the same mentality value in rigid/counter as a CB in a rigid/attacking, yet the former would responsible for "transition&attack" and the latter for "defence", though they're set to be equally attacking.

The "very rigid" mentality framework also strikes me as more fluid than "rigid", since the framework is more compressed, yet it's supposed to be the philosophy that creates most specialisation in the team? Moreover I also think it's curious that closing down tends to be higher with the very rigid philosophy than with rigid and balanced, though lower than very fluid.

[Cleon]

Yes, it's in the quote of yours I posted as well. I'm just having some trouble understanding the reasoning behind the frameworks and the descriptions that go with them. A WM would have the same mentality value in rigid/counter as a CB in a rigid/attacking, yet the former would responsible for "transition&attack" and the latter for "defence", though they're set to be equally attacking.

But the roles would have givem them different settings so just because they might share mentality doesn't mean they'd do the same job. The mentality would just bring players closer together or further apart etc.

very rigid is supposed to be used when you have more than 5 specialised roles in the team. It doesn't bring more specialised roles to the team, it makes the most of the 5+ roles you've selected already because it sets CF/mentality accordingly.

[mikcheck]

Cleon, just a quick question please. If i play normal strategy and tick counter attack with shout push higher and retains possession, it means that my team will play a slow build up game but when the opportunity arises, they'll play fast? Thank you

[timbo1983]

with Everton I think I would go with something like this:

Fluid

Defensive

press more

zonal marking

offside trap on

counter attack on

long shot for all players that have those manually tweaked to rare

GK: Sweeper/attack (delivery set to none specific defender collect, passing length set 3 notches away from shortest): Howard

DR: Fullback/defend: Hibbo

DCr: CB/defend: Jags

DCl: CB/defend: Distin

DL: Wingback/attack: Bains

DMC: Anchorman/defend: Heitinga

MCr: Advanced Playmaker/attack: Fellaini

MCl: DLP/support: Gibson

AMR: Winger/attack: Mirallas

STC: Trequartista/attack: Jelavic

AML: Inside Forward/attack: Naismith

I would rotate Pinaar/Osman in on cm (and also consider to train one of them to play central striker), while barkley and anichebe would go on the wings if needed, this would just be a basic frame work, it may or may not work (chances are it would since its pretty logical for the most part) but it could provide a starting point for you timbo

Thanks for your reply mate.

Funnily enough since the new patch today the tactics I have been trying to implement for the last 3 months have suddenly begun working exactly as I wanted them to in the first place. Jelavic is now scoring goals at will, Fellaini is effective as an attacking midfielder, and my team is 4 points behind Man Utd in the league, and currently on a 11 match unbeaten run and in my last 2 games beat Reading 5-1 and Southampton 6-2 (teams whose wingers like Robson-Kanu and Do Prado used to tear my team to pieces and we would lose 3-1).

The only disappointing thing is now I am not sure if it is down to the hours I spent reading these blogs and taking in and trying to apply information (all of which I am no longer using since the new patch) or whether the new patch has just made the game that much easier.

Without meaning to offend any of the more experienced and helpful guys on here, with the massive change I have noticed today, it seems to me like perhaps all those people on here that were whinging about how flawed the game was may have had a point. I have spent the last 3 months beating my head against a wall in frustration, trying anything and everything to make a simple tactic and refusing to blame the game or the ME for my failure. I followed the 12 steps, I watched the games in their entirety, I studied the shouts and what they do and tried to use them, I read opposition reports and used the media to target opposition players etc etc etc.

I am now doing none of that, and finally am winning games. This last 3 months has taught me that going forward I will not be purchasing FM until the February patch as I refuse to spend another 3 or more months, reading countless blogs and forums, and continually losing games, spending hours studying those passing screens (which when I see them posted on here I have no idea how anyone can read anything into, when showing passing for the whole team it is just a mess of dots.......). Only for the February patch to come out, and for me to suddenly start winning games with previously "flawed" tactics. This leaves me in a position of not having the satisfaction of finally "getting it" and being a better FM player, but rather that the patch has fixed all the things that were working against me previously.

In hindsight if I were to just wait for the February patch then I wouldn't have tormented myself for the last 3 months, turned my missus into an FM widow and beaten the daylights out of my dog when Puncheon goes for another field-long dribble and crosses from in-between 3 of my defenders (none of which thought to tackle him) and the cross lands on the head of Rickie Lambert who manages to get up above 3 of my players and head home the goal....instead I would have purchased the game now, setup tactics as I have now, tweaked them a little bit along the way till I got them just right, and would never even had to have posted in this forum (this is the first FM I have felt the need to seek help from other players).

Anyway, thanks for the being the only one to reply to my original post....my rant is now over. lol

Cheers,

Timbo

[Anaconda Vice]

How would you guys suggest setting up Lacina Traore and Gary Hooper in a Celtic Team. I was thinking Targetman and Poacher or maybe Complete Forward and Poacher. What do you think?

[Cleon]

Cleon, just a quick question please. If i play normal strategy and tick counter attack with shout push higher and retains possession, it means that my team will play a slow build up game but when the opportunity arises, they'll play fast? Thank you

No that is what the counter attack strategy will allow. Ticking counter attack isn't the same, it means your players will have maxed out mentality and tempo and will always look to hit the opposition quick and hard regardless of whether its a good situation or not.

[Cleon]

lets not turn this into 'the game was rubbish before' thread please.

[Cleon]

How would you guys suggest setting up Lacina Traore and Gary Hooper in a Celtic Team. I was thinking Targetman and Poacher or maybe Complete Forward and Poacher. What do you think?

A bit random isn't it? I mean I'm happy to help if I can but your question is nothing to do with the topic and you've offered no information about the players or how you play at all. How is anyone supposed to help? I need details and specifics if I or anyone else is able to help you

[timbo1983]

lets not turn this into 'the game was rubbish before' thread please.

Okay, I understand that this may not be the appropriate place for the point I am trying to make, can you please direct me to an appropriate thread where I can voice my opinion then please?

[Cleon]

Okay, I understand that this may not be the appropriate place for the point I am trying to make, can you please direct me to an appropriate thread where I can voice my opinion then please?

There are feedback threads in the General forum.

[Anaconda Vice]

A bit random isn't it? I mean I'm happy to help if I can but your question is nothing to do with the topic and you've offered no information about the players or how you play at all. How is anyone supposed to help? I need details and specifics if I or anyone else is able to help you

Sorry, I'll provide some more information.

I am managing Celtic at the moment and have been playing Hooper as a lone striker in the Poacher role. However if he has an off game we have a less chance of scoring obviously. I have Tom Ince and James Forrest coming in off the flanks providing goals and assists as Inside Forward and Winger respectively. Now I am considering changing to a 4-4-2, maybe not flat, but with AML and AMR. In hindsight it would have been better to let you know what my vision for the team was, so sorry on that count. Basically I want a counter attacking system that obviously will guarantee success in the SPL, but I also want to crack the Champions League. I am thinking that maybe playing with the AML and AMR while only having two CM's (Ledley, Kayal, McGugan, Henriksen) will reduce my defensive stability which at Celtic is not good in the Champions league. However by having two advanced players with the two strikers should give me a good amount of goals. It is whether these amount of goals will outshine the goals conceded. Apparently crossing isn't very good on the new patch which is why I am not sure how to set up Traore in in a 4-4-2 set up. Hope you can help.

[oetjhill]

sorry if i'm asking something off topic here,,

Can someone give me a guidelines about team meeting? How often we should do it? And what's the effect?

[Gee_Simpson]

No that is what the counter attack strategy will allow. Ticking counter attack isn't the same, it means your players will have maxed out mentality and tempo and will always look to hit the opposition quick and hard regardless of whether its a good situation or not.

So would the counter attack box being ticked in a counter strategy override it's mentality and tempo?

[Cleon]

So would the counter attack box being ticked in a counter strategy override it's mentality and tempo?

When a counter attack situation arose yes. The counter attack option (the check box) overrides all the mentality and tempo settings when the criteria for the counter is in proccess for the duration of move.

[Rashidi]

I am now officially bored, playing on commentary without slider changes or shouts. Maybe one change at halftime. Thats about it. Man this thread has become a giant help fix the tactic thread

[Rashidi]

sorry if i'm asking something off topic here,,

Can someone give me a guidelines about team meeting? How often we should do it? And what's the effect?

certainly off topic. Two kinds of team meeting, one is with the staff which you can manage over time. Just let it happen naturally ie, staff call for it. Or you can call team morale meeting when you are doing badly to bump up their morale,