The FM 41221 (433 - 451 - WoW)

[MeesterCat]

It's very much trial and error this, but hopefully one will - eventually - come up with something that just "clicks". But don't forget, that if you're playing with tactics that have a high level of creative freedom for your players, the exact roles and duties - at least for the forward players - are not all that important any more. The players own style of play will begin to count more. My preferred setup, which is Very Fluid and Control, already gives most of the players a lot of freedom to do what they see fit. I find I'll change the play more by choosing the right player, than by changing roles and duties. Pay attention to your players' strengths and weaknesses, and particularly to their PPM's.

I think this often gets overlooked, even with Balanced and Standard strategies.

[PequenoGenio]

It's my first try...

players have tweaks. Short pass(only midfilders and CF have mixed), mentality in normal

Only FB have man marking....

What you, masters, say to me?

[SJ234]

Untick all sliders. You need a support role in your front 3 otherwise they will get isolated. Also you could do with one of your full backs being attacking

[SJ234]

I'm terrible at shooting screens, I'm afraid. Anything particular you'd like to see? I could give it a try, certainly. Do I need a pic hosting web service, in that case?

That is what I have tended to use in the past. Imageshack or photobucket. Your passing stats would be quite interesting if possible.

I have started the new season poorly can't finish any chance.

[thomit]

Last match stats:

League table:

Team tactics:

Dunno ... think these all turn out blurry and not very good. Probably something to do with me using a 1920x1200 resolution on screen, with the clarity getting "lost in translation" somewhere. Anyway; last match was a rather disappointing 1-1 draw away vs. QPR. Put a serious dent into my hopes for emulating the Invincibles. I need to win the rest of my matches now, with only 1 more draw to equal them. Not really much hope, is there ... The reason I had some hope anyway, was because I have played all the best teams away already.

I'm not sure if any of this is what you were looking for, SJ234. The stats from this last match is far from the best I've seen, as you can imagine. But 60%+ posession is not unusual. The league table looks good though, with only Spurs as real contestants. 16 won, 7 draws and 0 lost. And look at my goal ratio - only let in 7 goals in 23 matches. Pretty good, me thinks, defense is tight as a virgin. One thing is certain; I've never been going this good in early January before. Not in FM 13 anyway, and not when having to start with the FM Arsenal team of 2012. I usually start much slower with a stronger finish to the season.

Edit: Ah. Found that it's possible to click on the images to get them in the original resolution.

[ham_aka_stam]

Untick all sliders. You need a support role in your front 3 otherwise they will get isolated. Also you could do with one of your full backs being attacking

Agree to untick the sliders but I don't agree with the rest necessarily.

A CF(A) will still play with back to goal and roam around so if he's half decent he'll play well.

FBs don't have to be assymetrical. Manchester United very rarely play that way these days for example.

[SJ234]

Agree to untick the sliders but I don't agree with the rest necessarily.

A CF(A) will still play with back to goal and roam around so if he's half decent he'll play well.

FBs don't have to be assymetrical. Manchester United very rarely play that way these days for example.

I have found they become isolated unless there is a support role in one of the front 3 positions.

I don't think full backs have to be asymmetrical either but having looked at his use of wingers he probably doesn't need one on attack I just tend to like to have one of them attacking.

Thanks thomit your action zones is impressive I tend to struggle to create that much pressure. Do you know why you aren't scoring as many goals as Spurs by any chance?

[Cleon]

I have found they become isolated unless there is a support role in one of the front 3 positions.

I don't think full backs have to be asymmetrical either but having looked at his use of wingers he probably doesn't need one on attack I just tend to like to have one of them attacking.

You can cure the isolation by having the midfield offer the support instead and link the play up and by using a high d-line. The reasons why you might have found the opposite is due to how you've set up elsewhere. The attributes too are vital to determine how a player actually plays out a role like I highlight in my Understanding Your Tactic thread.

[ham_aka_stam]

You also have attributes and PPMs affecting it. Play someone who works hard, has great team work and off the ball and I reckon they'll drop deep more. Play someone with Drops Deep PPM and they will too. Play someone who's only attribute is pace and they'll lose the ball when they drop deep, so you probably won't see it in the highlights.

[thomit]

I have found they become isolated unless there is a support role in one of the front 3 positions.

I don't think full backs have to be asymmetrical either but having looked at his use of wingers he probably doesn't need one on attack I just tend to like to have one of them attacking.

Thanks thomit your action zones is impressive I tend to struggle to create that much pressure. Do you know why you aren't scoring as many goals as Spurs by any chance?

No I don't. I never worry about that. It could be that - apart from Giroud - I don't have any really outstanding finishers in the team. One thing I would like to have, is better finishers among those that I play as IF's. But then again, my tactic don't rely on 20+ goals a season players, but on team effort. Our goals are distributed among a lot of players. We're still the second most scoring team, and just 7 goals behind Spurs. Who is doing exceptionally well too, don't forget that. I've already beat them away this season, so no worries

Update: Played 2 more league matches since; 2-0 over Wigan away, and a 4-1 thrashing of ManC at home. I tend to do well against the better teams, but struggle a bit more against teams that's parking the bus. I guess I could do even better against the latter if I changed my tactics a bit in such matches ... but since I'm Wenger's twin, I don't.

[SJ234]

You can cure the isolation by having the midfield offer the support instead and link the play up and by using a high d-line. The reasons why you might have found the opposite is due to how you've set up elsewhere. The attributes too are vital to determine how a player actually plays out a role like I highlight in my Understanding Your Tactic thread.

By support from midfield do you mean through an attack role?

You also have attributes and PPMs affecting it. Play someone who works hard, has great team work and off the ball and I reckon they'll drop deep more. Play someone with Drops Deep PPM and they will too. Play someone who's only attribute is pace and they'll lose the ball when they drop deep, so you probably won't see it in the highlights.

Obviously that PPM in particular changes it. I didn't give much though to the attribute element of it.

[robterrace]

You can cure the isolation by having the midfield offer the support instead and link the play up and by using a high d-line. The reasons why you might have found the opposite is due to how you've set up elsewhere. The attributes too are vital to determine how a player actually plays out a role like I highlight in my Understanding Your Tactic thread.

I found that by adopting the Barca/Bayern/Dortmund way of attempting to win the ball back as far up the pitch as possible was also a great help.

[iamhix]

Thank you for sharing

[SJ234]

I found that by adopting the Barca/Bayern/Dortmund way of attempting to win the ball back as far up the pitch as possible was also a great help.

So pretty much hassle opponents, push higher up and stay on feet?

Also how could I create a double pivot in the midfield? I want one to go forwards whilst the other sits and then they swap over. 2 AP(s) could work

[llama3]

i switch between 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1 depending on circumstances and opponents and even switch mid-game if situation requires it

[davehibb]

This is a fantastic thread!

I really should have said that earlier as I have probably skimmed over it half a dozen times now.

I'm playing a 4-1-2-2-1 with Ajax, first season and whilst I'm doing okay, I still feel I could be getting a little more out of my formation/players.

The way we are set up at the moment we have De Jong playing DLF(s) who drops deep to collect the ball and link with Eriksen AP (a) and to play in Fischer and Nem, both IF(a). I have Praet as a DLP(s) and our DM is just that, a DM(d) to shield my centre halves with my DL and DR on WB(s) duty.

I'm wondering if I can squeeze a little but more out of things by changing Praet's role to AP(s) and perhaps changing De Jong's to DLF(a). In the OP it says that two AP's at CM can work and with one on support and one on attack duty they shouldn't get in eachother's way and that goes for De Jong too if I swap him from DLF(s) to DLF(a). He should still come deep to link the play but then vacate that space for Eriksen and to a certain extent Praet to move forward into, hopefully pulling a DC out of position in the process?

Does that all sound logical? Does anyone else use similar roles/setup with success?

[ham_aka_stam]

De Jong will drop off a lot less if you do that, and he'll be increasingly likely to go for goal himself. Also if he doesn't drop off, he's not moving defenders out the way for your IF, so you may do more harm than good.

I'd definitely have a go with changing to APs though,

[davehibb]

De Jong will drop off a lot less if you do that, and he'll be increasingly likely to go for goal himself. Also if he doesn't drop off, he's not moving defenders out the way for your IF, so you may do more harm than good.

I'd definitely have a go with changing to APs though,

Thanks.

De Jong not pulling people about by coming deep is certainly a consideration. I'll try switching Praet's role to AP(s) and if the space in front of the opposition back 4 isn't too crowded I'll leave it at that.

I guess I've always been loath to have both CMs in the same role, albeit with different duties but it's been bugging me since I got to work this morning, so just 6 more hours to go before I get home and can try it out.

[ham_aka_stam]

The attack and support roles are very different. I've played with a front three all on CF(A) before and had great success, it's all about how the players interpret the role as well, Rooney plays CF(A) very differently to Welbeck for example.

You souldn't find the AP(S) pushing too far forward, what he might do is give De Jone more support on the break, for example if the IF's are stuck wide, or deep from helping the defence, he might help stop DJ being isolated and/or make runs past him to give him another option.

[MeesterCat]

I'm going to mention this here and I apologise if its already been touched upon in the thread.

Has anybody had any joy with a 41221 using an AF?

I ask because while I'm doing fantastic at the moment with a Treq in the striker position, I have a regen coming through the ranks who is going to be pretty awesome, but he's by no means a creativ, DLF or CF type. Annoyingly he's also a natural at AMR, but is totally Right-footed so that kind of rules out deploying him as an IF.

[SJ234]

Could train him at AML or just play him on the right it doesn't tend to matter a huge amount. Or you change one of your widemen to a support tole

[ham_aka_stam]

I'd train him for the left, and/or deploy him as one of two up front when you come up against a stubborn back-3.

[ambi!]

I'm going to mention this here and I apologise if its already been touched upon in the thread.

Has anybody had any joy with a 41221 using an AF?

I ask because while I'm doing fantastic at the moment with a Treq in the striker position, I have a regen coming through the ranks who is going to be pretty awesome, but he's by no means a creativ, DLF or CF type. Annoyingly he's also a natural at AMR, but is totally Right-footed so that kind of rules out deploying him as an IF.

With my Newcastle team I play with Bony as CF and switch him with Ademilson as AF. AML and AMR are IF's (Fischer and Ben Arfa). Behind them I play an AP att (Bigirimana/McCarthy) and a B2B midfielder (Sissoko). Tiote is Anchorman at DM. For width I play with two wingbacks that have support duty. Works great.

[MeesterCat]

Cheers for the feedback guys. Some things to ponder at work tomorrow.

[davehibb]

Well I've certainly noticed an improvement in our style of play since changing Praet from a DLP(s) to an AP(s).

He doesn't get in the way in the final third, even though he's more advanced and he is able to influence things a little more than when he was deeper. I also switched my DM(d) to (s), I guess making a triple pivot? (AP(a), AP(s) & DM(s)) and again it seems to have helped the general cohesion of the formation and doesn't leave us exposed at the back. Switching back to counter attacking from control has helped too I think.

We're not hammering everyone every week by any means but we qualified for the CL knockout stages, taking 4points off AC Milan on the way and we're top of the league by 6 points, even though I've been giving a lot of youngster a lot of playing time and rotating things around.

[ashlfcowen]

This is my cry for help to you all; after 8 league games I am sit in 13th position with 3 wins, 2 draws and 3 losses.

Very inconsistent results as you see, a few nice wins accompanied with a few horrific losses.

Not many additions at all to the squad, strengthened with the sale of Downing and the addition of Gaitan which I don't think many could complain with. This is the starting XI I like to start with when I have the whole, fit squad to choose from.

You're probably thinking that maybe I am being a little premature as I have only played 8 league games but as you can tell my familiarity with the current tactic is pretty much all fluid so I don't think it's a case of my players not "adjusting" to it. On paper, to me, it appears fine. I always start every game controlling, then depending on the situation I will change to counter (when player a superior team) or attacking when I am behind or drawing against inferior teams. At the minute I don't have any shouts but this is something I am looking in to. I don't consider it to be "broken" and I don't think any of my players are not good enough for the positions they're playing but the statistics below seem to tell me otherwise;

5 goals in 15 appearances off my front three! Pathetic.

Let's look at a few games;

Liverpool 1 - 1 Reading played at Anfield

Southampton 1 - 0 Liverpool played at St Marys

What worries me here is the amount of misplaces passes! Urgh.

And finally Liverpool 1 - 1 Aston Villa at Anfield, again worrying amount of passes intercepted.

These are 3 games which cost me 7 points, which if won - would see me joint first. Now, I have turned FM off because the recent 3-0 loss to Chelsea almost seen some FM rage as I wouldn't sure how to turn the match around. Moral is low, and I need help.

[davehibb]

@ ashlfcowen.

I'm no expert by any means but going off what you've posted I wouldn't think there's too much reason to panic. A few tweaks and you should be fine I think.

Two of the games you've lost are a derby with Everton who are usually pretty solid defensively and against a Chelsea team stacked with attacking talent, both away from home. So I wouldn't be overly concerned, especially if your tactic isn't totally fluid yet.

The way you've set your team up is pretty much how I have a couple of my teams and given what I've learnt recently a couple of suggestions I'd make are:

Swap from control to counter attacking. I would guess control is something you would use if your talent far outweighs the opposition, whereas counter attack allows you to build slowly whilst being compact and hard to break down. It's been said a lot in the threads I've read but counter attack IS an attacking set up and not as defensive as it's name might imply.

Another thing that sticks out to me is your IF's. Neither of them are a ANR/L striker hybrid. Both are more creative, so perhaps set one or both of them to support so they can feed Suarez as he bursts into the box from linking the play or to pick out a runner from midfield.

Speaking of midfield, as your fullbacks aren't on attacking duty I would suggest using Lucas as a DLP as he's certainly good enough to build attacks from deep as well as shielding the back four and possibly switching Allen to an AP(s). I recently made the switch in a 4-1-2-2-1 to having an AP(a) and AP(s) and it works very well, especillay with my DMC stepping up into midfield when we have the ball on support duty to back up the play.

Like I said, I'm no expert but it's my two cents.

[ashlfcowen]

@ ashlfcowen.

I'm no expert by any means but going off what you've posted I wouldn't think there's too much reason to panic. A few tweaks and you should be fine I think.

Two of the games you've lost are a derby with Everton who are usually pretty solid defensively and against a Chelsea team stacked with attacking talent, both away from home. So I wouldn't be overly concerned, especially if your tactic isn't totally fluid yet.

The way you've set your team up is pretty much how I have a couple of my teams and given what I've learnt recently a couple of suggestions I'd make are:

Swap from control to counter attacking. I would guess control is something you would use if your talent far outweighs the opposition, whereas counter attack allows you to build slowly whilst being compact and hard to break down. It's been said a lot in the threads I've read but counter attack IS an attacking set up and not as defensive as it's name might imply.

Another thing that sticks out to me is your IF's. Neither of them are a ANR/L striker hybrid. Both are more creative, so perhaps set one or both of them to support so they can feed Suarez as he bursts into the box from linking the play or to pick out a runner from midfield.

Speaking of midfield, as your fullbacks aren't on attacking duty I would suggest using Lucas as a DLP as he's certainly good enough to build attacks from deep as well as shielding the back four and possibly switching Allen to an AP(s). I recently made the switch in a 4-1-2-2-1 to having an AP(a) and AP(s) and it works very well, especillay with my DMC stepping up into midfield when we have the ball on support duty to back up the play.

Like I said, I'm no expert but it's my two cents.

Followed by a defeat to Academica (A) and a draw to Newcastle (H) , two games which were painful to watch. I think I'm going to admit defeat with this tactic and accept that it's not working. It's not pretty to watch. Appreciate your two cents thank you.

[ham_aka_stam]

Hmm.

Looking purely at the tactic, I see this being how I'd expect it to work:

Defensive unit of three playing safe, wingbacks to help get the ball forward, a DLP to help retain the ball, and an AP who will do all of the creating.

A DLF who will drop deep, play with back to goal, and flick onto IFs who you want breaking the defence with runs and/or dribbles and scoring your goals, possibly cutting back to the DLF. Very little quick support from the mf, but the WBs may get up to help with width.

Looking at the players you have in those positions:

Suarez, DLF(S) - I've never actually looked at his stats, but I see him more as a Complete Forward or an Advanced Forward (maybe DLF(A)). His strength is his movement, dribbling and finishing, so playing him deep is wasting the latter two of those.

Coutinho and Gaitan IF(A) - As above, neither are goal scorers. More creative types?

If I'm right there, put Suarez as a CF(A) or a DLF(A) and put the two wide players as either AP(A) or IF(S), maybe one as one, one as the other.

Then the MF, big issue is none of them are going to bust a gut to get forward. AP(A) is the most likely to, but it might be too late if you're relying on Suarez to hold the ball up. I'd play Gerrard as a CM(A).

How good are Allen's passing stats? Is he a DLP? or is Lucas better in that role? Consider changing the DM to DLP and the CM to CM(d).

Also with WBs, I'd consider having the DM as an Anchorman to better cover the defence.

If you're struggling, control is a poor choice to try to get some results, especially combining it with heavy Closing down and high CF. I'd drop down to Counter, keep high closing down if that's how you want to play, and consider dropping the CF to Standard for the time being. The rest I'm not too bothered about.

[Laker9]

I'm starting a new game to tide me over till FM14. I'm a Spurs fan and am using the update pack for summer transfers, so my team is a little bit different to the 13.3.3 squad.

I'm liking the sound of this 41221 for the current Spurs team, and seeing as I can never get a solid 4231 working in FM13 this is the route i'm going to try. Do you think it would work out for the current lineup? I'm thinking these would be the position share and roles

GK (SK) = Lloris/Friedel

DL (WB/FB) = Assou-Ekotto/Vertonghen/Possible transfer

DR (WB/FB) = Walker/Naughton

DCL (CD/BPD) = Vertonghen/Dawson

DCR (CD) = Kaboul/Dawson/Capoue

DM (DM) = Sandro/Capoue/Parker

MCR (DLP - Support) = Dembele/Paulinho/Capoue

MCL (AP - Attack) = Dembele/Sigorsson/Holtby

AML (IF - Attack) = Bale/Chadli

AMR (Winger - Support/Attack) = Lennon/Chadli/Holtby retrain?

STR = Soldado(AF?) / Adebayor(DLF) / Defoe(Poach)

Do you think they seem like correct roles? I'd love to have some sort of Midfield trio of Sandro/Paulinho/Dembele as i'm eager to see them in real life.

[ashlfcowen]

Hmm.

Looking purely at the tactic, I see this being how I'd expect it to work:

Defensive unit of three playing safe, wingbacks to help get the ball forward, a DLP to help retain the ball, and an AP who will do all of the creating.

A DLF who will drop deep, play with back to goal, and flick onto IFs who you want breaking the defence with runs and/or dribbles and scoring your goals, possibly cutting back to the DLF. Very little quick support from the mf, but the WBs may get up to help with width.

Looking at the players you have in those positions:

Suarez, DLF(S) - I've never actually looked at his stats, but I see him more as a Complete Forward or an Advanced Forward (maybe DLF(A)). His strength is his movement, dribbling and finishing, so playing him deep is wasting the latter two of those.

Coutinho and Gaitan IF(A) - As above, neither are goal scorers. More creative types?

If I'm right there, put Suarez as a CF(A) or a DLF(A) and put the two wide players as either AP(A) or IF(S), maybe one as one, one as the other.

Then the MF, big issue is none of them are going to bust a gut to get forward. AP(A) is the most likely to, but it might be too late if you're relying on Suarez to hold the ball up. I'd play Gerrard as a CM(A).

How good are Allen's passing stats? Is he a DLP? or is Lucas better in that role? Consider changing the DM to DLP and the CM to CM(d).

Also with WBs, I'd consider having the DM as an Anchorman to better cover the defence.

If you're struggling, control is a poor choice to try to get some results, especially combining it with heavy Closing down and high CF. I'd drop down to Counter, keep high closing down if that's how you want to play, and consider dropping the CF to Standard for the time being. The rest I'm not too bothered about.

I have almost completely changed my tactic and seem an improvement in results somewhat; a few great additions to the squad in Jan as well. I'm still tweaking the tactic depending on the match so it's not completely set in stone YET and my main reason is Coutinho; great little player, great eye for a pass but poor strength & tackling and not enough fight & eye for goal to play in the IF position like Suarez so I'm struggling to place him in my team. Anyway, on to the fixtures;

As you can see a huge improvement and it's down to these changes; can I note the squad I have selected is one which I consider to be my strongest. In reply to your question ham Allen has passing (15), creativity (13), flair (11), off the ball (12) technique (14...scrap that;

Which begs the question really; IS HE GOOD ENOUGH? I don't think he is. Shelvey would be more suited to that position, but again referring to my original though I want to include Coutinho in the midfield pack somewhere where his poor strength or tacking won't really be required. What are your thoughts on Coutinho (AP) , Gerrard CM(S) , Lucas DLP (D) ?

Any thoughts on how to improve to the turn the losses/draws in to wins?

[ham_aka_stam]

Depends why you're losing/drawing really.

[ashlfcowen]

Depends why you're losing/drawing really.

Silly question by myself really, I've been around the block long enough now to realise how much of an open question that was, sorry!

[Luizinho]

This is what I'm using with my LEMANS FC team. I wanted a very tight, solid, counter-attacking system that would try and win games 1-0, 2-1.

Here is it:

I'm not quite happy with and I'm not too sure why lol

Was wondering if anyone can any 'holes' within it???

[MattKita]

Decided its time to get some help. I'm currently in npower league 2. I got back to back promotions and avoided relegation on the final day last year. Now my team is not the most talented in the league but it's not the worst. I'd say talent wise a lower mid table team, yet 2 months in and its relegation zone again.

The season before my tactic was crap and I kept changing it to try and get results. This year I worked on it before starting the season. Really trying to get it down. We beat some higher league sides in preseason. But now we're struggling. I don't remember exactly but I believe we have 2 wins about 4 losses and probably approaching 10 draws.

I've noticed the biggest problem is mental mistakes. Someone holding onto the ball way too long and get it picked off or a dumb pass back to the goalie that a defender gets. Now it was mostly 1 player making these mistakes so I benched him and the mistakes are limited. Offensively we cannot finish. The boys get in front of goal and in the box a good amount per game and can't finish, even though our finishing rating is solid. I lose matched where possession and shots are equal and my passing and tackling is almost always better than other squads. We draw matches we dominate. If I completely dominate shots and possession we end up with a 1 1 draw.

I promised players promotion or my 2 key young stars will want to leave. I need to figure it out if its my players or my tactic. I'll add pictures later when I get home.

I play the 41221.

T(a)

W(a) iF (a)

Ap (a) bwm (s)

A (d)

Fb (d) cd (d) cd (d) fb (a)

Gk

We play a rigid normal mentality. Passing direct. Marking close down. I set the tempo higher and counter attack on.

I had the inside forward set on support but him and the fulkback kept getting on top of each other so I made him attacking to have him cut in more.

From my terrible explanation do you guys see any problems? I'll try to add pictures asap.

[vasilli07]

I'm starting a new game to tide me over till FM14. I'm a Spurs fan and am using the update pack for summer transfers, so my team is a little bit different to the 13.3.3 squad.

I'm liking the sound of this 41221 for the current Spurs team, and seeing as I can never get a solid 4231 working in FM13 this is the route i'm going to try. Do you think it would work out for the current lineup? I'm thinking these would be the position share and roles

GK (SK) = Lloris/Friedel

DL (WB/FB) = Assou-Ekotto/Vertonghen/Possible transfer

DR (WB/FB) = Walker/Naughton

DCL (CD/BPD) = Vertonghen/Dawson

DCR (CD) = Kaboul/Dawson/Capoue

DM (DM) = Sandro/Capoue/Parker

MCR (DLP - Support) = Dembele/Paulinho/Capoue

MCL (AP - Attack) = Dembele/Sigorsson/Holtby

AML (IF - Attack) = Bale/Chadli

AMR (Winger - Support/Attack) = Lennon/Chadli/Holtby retrain?

STR = Soldado(AF?) / Adebayor(DLF) / Defoe(Poach)

Do you think they seem like correct roles? I'd love to have some sort of Midfield trio of Sandro/Paulinho/Dembele as i'm eager to see them in real life.

I would use Paulinho as a b2b midfielder, role could be cm(a)/b2b, depending on how attacking you want him to be.

[Riziger]

Decided its time to get some help. I'm currently in npower league 2. I got back to back promotions and avoided relegation on the final day last year. Now my team is not the most talented in the league but it's not the worst. I'd say talent wise a lower mid table team, yet 2 months in and its relegation zone again.

The season before my tactic was crap and I kept changing it to try and get results. This year I worked on it before starting the season. Really trying to get it down. We beat some higher league sides in preseason. But now we're struggling. I don't remember exactly but I believe we have 2 wins about 4 losses and probably approaching 10 draws.

I've noticed the biggest problem is mental mistakes. Someone holding onto the ball way too long and get it picked off or a dumb pass back to the goalie that a defender gets. Now it was mostly 1 player making these mistakes so I benched him and the mistakes are limited. Offensively we cannot finish. The boys get in front of goal and in the box a good amount per game and can't finish, even though our finishing rating is solid. I lose matched where possession and shots are equal and my passing and tackling is almost always better than other squads. We draw matches we dominate. If I completely dominate shots and possession we end up with a 1 1 draw.

I promised players promotion or my 2 key young stars will want to leave. I need to figure it out if its my players or my tactic. I'll add pictures later when I get home.

I play the 41221.

T(a)

W(a) iF (a)

Ap (a) bwm (s)

A (d)

Fb (d) cd (d) cd (d) fb (a)

Gk

We play a rigid normal mentality. Passing direct. Marking close down. I set the tempo higher and counter attack on.

I had the inside forward set on support but him and the fulkback kept getting on top of each other so I made him attacking to have him cut in more.

From my terrible explanation do you guys see any problems? I'll try to add pictures asap.

I'm no expert by any means but from what you have, I think the roles you've chose are too.... linear? Not sure if that's the right word to use. Basically I think you have 3 lines of players with not enough in between the lines apart from the Treq and perhaps the Fb(a). Nobody is going to break from midfield so the opposition just sits in front of yours knowing there will be no vertical movement. And just like that supply is cut short to your attackers who are sat high up the pitch waiting to receive the ball.

Also, obviously without knowing your players it's kind of hard to say but is Trequartista really a suitable position for your striker in the lower leagues? It looks like your only goal "threat" will be the IF on the right.

And lastly, getting your formations and tactics to fluid is very important so I suggest not to keep changing it.

[maztheplaya]

I started a career with Swansea and I have Michu (for the RVP/Messi role) and Bony (for the Drogba role) and I want to change them based on my opponent.

I was thinking of using Bony when my opponents have centre backs with good positinioning and Michu when they lack the positioning so that he tries to draw them from their position. Any other ideas when to use the different roles?

[furiousuk]

I started a career with Swansea and I have Michu (for the RVP/Messi role) and Bony (for the Drogba role) and I want to change them based on my opponent.

I was thinking of using Bony when my opponents have centre backs with good positinioning and Michu when they lack the positioning so that he tries to draw them from their position. Any other ideas when to use the different roles?

I'm just guessing here but if Bony is quicker (i.e. likes to play higher as the Drogba role usually did) he might have more luck against teams that play higher and/or have slower defenders and if you also play deeper you should be able to hit that space in behind as another option, coupled with normal/longer passing, play wider and more through balls he could have a great day.

You might find also that someone playing higher has a better time when the opposition use a DM. The DM, if he is the anchor type, will sit where RvP/Messi/Michu may like to drop deeper and cramp that area, sometimes you can just roll with it and beat their strengths but plenty of times you'll want to play smarter and hit a different area. The only issue here is that often with a DM teams won't also play high so that area is congested but in that case sometimes a stronger guy will be be better suited, particularly as he could be more isolated than when playing infront of an AM.

[MattKita]

Starting to feel as if this is a tactic not best suited for lower leagues.

[furiousuk]

Starting to feel as if this is a tactic not best suited for lower leagues.

This is actually my opinion, I always struggled defensively. Whilst this tactic is strong defensively I think you do need certain characteristics, mainly well rounded defenders. CB's need to be decent in the air because teams can attack you with crosses, this is easy enough to find lower down, but they also need intelligence and if you want to push higher then a bit of pace too (not too much though as generally you won't be that high). Intelligence is also needed so that your CB's play 'good' passes, lumping it forwards to the FC isn't a great tactic so you need to play it through the midfield which requires a bit of smarts and a little bit of ball playing ability from CB's (I generally paired a big brute with a biggish DM-type at CB, I used Alex Song and then Phil Jones to great effect paired with a big lump). CB's like this you can find lower down (although consistency is an issue, as is positioning) but FB's I think you really struggle with.

FB's have a lot of work to do. If you play two IF's then they'll generally need the legs to provide a bit of width and possibly even to overlap which means they need some attacking ability. You're weakest down the flanks so they definitely need some defensive ability, maybe not brilliant defensively but decent. Also, and most importantly for me, when nothing else is on in the center then your midfielders need a get-out pass and the FB's are often unmarked; the difference in your team when your FB's can play intelligent passes and restart a move (rather than trying to run or playing a shoddy forwards pass that isn't really on) is incredible. This pretty much means that your FB's have to be decent at everything but also have incredible physical attributes to work the line hard. Very very hard to find for a top team, damn near impossible for lower down. I'll often pair an aggressive attacker with a CB-type at full-backs but have also used DM's (they tend to be well rounded players with at least a bit of defensive ability) when I need to control possession more.

Also I find that getting AMR/AML with enough work rate, stamina and ethic to track back from time to time is difficult which leaves your flanks even more exposed. On top of this if you are overrun out there it is very easy for your midfielders to get dragged over to help out and this is where intelligence in your midfield is also necessary.

In short, I think this formation requires real intelligence in the middle of the park and incredible energy out wide to work well, with most players being fairly rounded. If you give the opposition few chances (through lapses of concentration etc) then it is very very hard for them to create against you (barring possibly counter-attacks, but most formations should struggle against good counters).

Having said all this, there are many examples of using this formation to good effect lower down. I would think though that you have to make yourself pretty one-dimensional and accept that when a team is strong against that dimension you're going to struggle. Generally, lower down you're just fighting for promotion so you can afford to lose a couple against your 'bogey' team/s so long as your main strategy works most of the time and particularly if your 'bogey' team/s aren't those you're competing for promotion with.

[Brock74]

does anybody else have a problem with WAY to many long shots especially my wingers. I have all players set to no long shots, my mid and att is set up like;

DLP-D

BWM-S AP

W-S IF-A

CF-S

Even when my wingers have choices to pass the IF-A will still take long shots.

[James9]

This is actually my opinion, I always struggled defensively. Whilst this tactic is strong defensively I think you do need certain characteristics, mainly well rounded defenders. CB's need to be decent in the air because teams can attack you with crosses, this is easy enough to find lower down, but they also need intelligence and if you want to push higher then a bit of pace too (not too much though as generally you won't be that high). Intelligence is also needed so that your CB's play 'good' passes, lumping it forwards to the FC isn't a great tactic so you need to play it through the midfield which requires a bit of smarts and a little bit of ball playing ability from CB's (I generally paired a big brute with a biggish DM-type at CB, I used Alex Song and then Phil Jones to great effect paired with a big lump). CB's like this you can find lower down (although consistency is an issue, as is positioning) but FB's I think you really struggle with.

FB's have a lot of work to do. If you play two IF's then they'll generally need the legs to provide a bit of width and possibly even to overlap which means they need some attacking ability. You're weakest down the flanks so they definitely need some defensive ability, maybe not brilliant defensively but decent. Also, and most importantly for me, when nothing else is on in the center then your midfielders need a get-out pass and the FB's are often unmarked; the difference in your team when your FB's can play intelligent passes and restart a move (rather than trying to run or playing a shoddy forwards pass that isn't really on) is incredible. This pretty much means that your FB's have to be decent at everything but also have incredible physical attributes to work the line hard. Very very hard to find for a top team, damn near impossible for lower down. I'll often pair an aggressive attacker with a CB-type at full-backs but have also used DM's (they tend to be well rounded players with at least a bit of defensive ability) when I need to control possession more.

Also I find that getting AMR/AML with enough work rate, stamina and ethic to track back from time to time is difficult which leaves your flanks even more exposed. On top of this if you are overrun out there it is very easy for your midfielders to get dragged over to help out and this is where intelligence in your midfield is also necessary.

In short, I think this formation requires real intelligence in the middle of the park and incredible energy out wide to work well, with most players being fairly rounded. If you give the opposition few chances (through lapses of concentration etc) then it is very very hard for them to create against you (barring possibly counter-attacks, but most formations should struggle against good counters).

Having said all this, there are many examples of using this formation to good effect lower down. I would think though that you have to make yourself pretty one-dimensional and accept that when a team is strong against that dimension you're going to struggle. Generally, lower down you're just fighting for promotion so you can afford to lose a couple against your 'bogey' team/s so long as your main strategy works most of the time and particularly if your 'bogey' team/s aren't those you're competing for promotion with.

Furiousuk can you give me some advice for my midfield trio. I am playing Arsenal and my midfielders are Wilshere, Cazorla, Ramsey and Arteta at the moment. I read your post on setting up a triple midfield pivot. I wanted to know which roles you advice i give to these players to achieve the triple midfield pivot. I am playing with the 41221 formation. My lone striker will be a complete forward or deep lying forward both on support duty. And my AMR and AML will be inside forward attack and winger attack. Would you suggest wny changes to my AML and AMR positions. I have the idea that i would like one of my Central Midfielders bursting in the box as part of the triple midfield set up. Can you please help me with setting this up effectively.

[lilljons]

Is it just me, or are the pics in the OP gone?

[davehibb]

Is it just me, or are the pics in the OP gone?

Yeah, I keep flicking back here for reference and all the pretty pictures have gone.

Can we get them back???

Fantastic OP and thread btw.

[furiousuk]

Ah yeah, sorry guys, I was hosting those myself and just changed providers. The originals should be on an old hard drive, I'll dig it out and (hopefully) reinstate them!

[SPE3D]

Hi Guys

I've read through every page of this superb thread and have not seen any mention of using a DLP instead of a DM. I was thinking of having the following setup: -

WBs

CDd

CDd

WBa

DLPd

CMa

CMs

Ws

IFa

DLFs

The idea being the DLP will act as the pivot with the CMa providing an extra attacking threat. As nobody seems to be using the DLP in this role I was wondering if I am missing something obvious? Please help as the January transfer window is fast approaching and I've got my eyes on a juicy DLP

[thomit]

DLP in the DM position is perfectly fine. The problem is finding the player that can handle this dual role: He need to be able to have good stats to be a defending DM and be creative with good technical skills, including passing, decision making, composure ... such players are hard to find, even for the top clubs.

PS. Actually, a DLP(d) and a CM(s) is my preferred combo in a 4-2-3-1 formation, but in this formation we're discussing in this thread, I prefer to have my playmaker placed a little higher up on the pitch, and have the DM concentrate mainly on screening the defense.

[thomit]

Btw; those struggling to excert enough pressure on the opposition, or can't seem to get quite the ball posession they want with this formation, I recommend experimenting with moving the DL/DR up to WBL/WBR positions. It will usually not be detrimental to your defending - sometimes quite the opposite, in fact - but it will help in pressuring the opposition more, gives you more passing options in midfield, and makes the wing backs contribute just that little more to the attack. As long as you have a DM (DM/defend or anchor man), your defense will largely be on par; the wing backs will still position themselves in defence much like before, but their initial position a little higher up the pitch will in many circumstances mean that they will be closer to the opposing wide man when he receives the ball, making them able to close down a little faster, making it harder for him to run at them with the ball or provide a forward pass - this will often mean that your defending is better than before, actually. Give it a try. I remember using this option back in FM 10/11, but have recently started to use it with my FM 13 Arsenal side again, with good results. Of course, having good wing backs and a reasonably quick pair of DC's helps. I have set my wing backs up as wing back/automatic (so support duty when I play my usual control strategy, attack duty when I play attacking) and told them to hug the touchline.

[furiousuk]

The idea being the DLP will act as the pivot with the CMa providing an extra attacking threat. As nobody seems to be using the DLP in this role I was wondering if I am missing something obvious? Please help as the January transfer window is fast approaching and I've got my eyes on a juicy DLP

Yeah, I got a juicy playmaking DM regen and absolutely had to use him so I shifted the focus of my midfield. I previously used DM/d,APM/s,APM/s with the MCs (APMs) being the focus of creativity, usually pairing a B2B style player (all-rounder) with a creative guy so that although tactically they were the same their character provided different playing styles. With the playmaker further back I'd need more energy infront, off the top of my head I probably swapped to 2 CM/supports (possibly B2B, although unlikely, although it would probably work) so that the focus of creativity was that DM rather than further forward.

The shift in the 'height' of the primary playmaker should also force other differences. For example, you may want more adventurous full-backs so the deep playmaker has more aggressive options, or you might want your FC to be more withdrawn so that he is a more ready pass option for the DLP too.

Defensively you have to consider that you're swapping from an industrious and solid DM to a DLP, who, whilst hopefully still being excellent positionally, probably isn't as good (or as enthusiastic) a defensive unit. So thats another consideration.

The other way I've used a DLP is to modify so that his forward runs was set to often, with one MC set to rare and the other also set to often. I then changed so that DLP is support to up his mentality, had one attack MC and one defend(maybe support) MC. This was in an effort to swap a 1-2 midfield into a 2-1 midfield. It was only mildly successful.