The FM 41221 (433 - 451 - WoW)

[mikcheck]

furiousuk what's your opinion in playing deep with a 4-1-2-2-1 to have more space to play despite being a good team?

[furiousuk]

furiousuk what's your opinion in playing deep with a 4-1-2-2-1 to have more space to play despite being a good team?

No problems whatsoever. I'll shout 'Drop Deep' far more often than 'Push Higher'.

The formation usually dictates this. Take, for example, against a flat 442:

You have 3 guys in the spaces that the 442 gives you between the lines. If you push up you're limiting that space, drop deep and you help create it.

I'll quote a fantastic little truism which I think comes from ZdlR:

"Playing wider creates gaps between players whereas playing deeper creates space between the lines"

As a starting point this quote is fantastic. The 41221 enjoys playing deeper because it not only allows space between the lines but also critically enlarges the Danger Zone between DC and MC. This isn't a problem for you because you have a DM sat in there but it could be for your opposition. With 5 players set to exploit this space it makes sense to have it large.

Plus, the 41221 shape is inherently a fantastic counter attacking threat so playing deep helps to draw the opposition out and create space for counters or for 'counter-style' attacks (i.e. fairly quick, direct attacks).

If you think that Chelsea under Mourinho were immensely successful with this formation and Barca conquered the world with it, whilst neither played particularly high, and it makes sense.

Similarly, there's nothing wrong with having Counter or Standard as your de facto strategy even if you're the best team in the world. It suits this formation and won't limit your attacking play - I've got screenies where I've played Standard for the whole match and had 40 shots on goal (and they weren't all ridiculous longshots) and 10 CCC's.

[mikcheck]

Thank you! Well i asked you this because i noticed that my team (worldwide reputation) play more attractive football when my defensive line is deeper. There is more space for the players to pass and there is a lot more interaction between the players and awesome trough balls. I think i will leave it this way now.

[yonko]

It really is that simple. The defensive ability of this shape relies in dominating the 'Danger Zone' and it does this by placing 5 players in this area (DC, DC, DM, MC, MC). This block of 5 players must control the ball, either when attackers enter the space or aerially, in order for whatever defensive system you like to employ to be successful.

My method for controlling this space has been to use physical players with good mental stats. I then mix this with tight man-marking instructions for the core of 5 players and allow the 'outside' 5 players to be on loose zonal. FM does not simulate a man-marking system in the way many people think of a real-life man-marking system (unless you specifically mark players) - in FM using the man marking (very generally) just means that your guys will pick up targets 'sooner' when they come into the players general defending vicinity. In lay-mans terms they'll get pulled out of position by good movement easier but will allow the opposition less space (this is in conjunction with closing down which augments or diminishes the timing of the instruction)

This really interesting defensive marking system. Let me make sure I understand this correctly. 2 DCs, DM and 2 MCs are on tight man-marking, while the DR, DL, AML, AMR and FC are on loose zonal marking. Is that correct? Do you use this with teams from all levels and reputation? What is your closing down setting like with this mixed marking system? Do you use "hassle opponents"?

In my save with Barca in the 3rd season, I allowed only 24 goals against in all competitions (10 goals against in La Liga), 65 games in total. I used tight zonal marking on everyone except the fullbacks. They were on loose zonal marking. But whenever I'd notice that my opposition would make their fullbacks more adventurous, I would specifically man-mark them with my AMR and AML. I also used the shout "hassle opponents" in every game majority of the time, which of course maxes out the closing down on all my players. Though I would remove it sometimes at the end of games, when I would switch to "Counter" strategy and want to close out a game.

These are the players I used during that season:

GK (SK-D) - Valdes/Adler

DR (FB-A/S) - Alves/Montoya

DL (FB-A/S) - Alba/Muniesa

DCr (CD-D) - Pique/Kara/Puyol

DCl (CD-D) - Bartra/Kara/Puyol

DM (DM-D) - Busquets/Mascherano/Kara

MCr (DLP-S/AP-S) - Xavi/Thiago

MCl (AP-A/S or CM-A) - Iniesta/Fabregas

AMR (IF-A) - Pedro/Bojan

AML (IF-A) - Sanchez/Deulofeu

FC (T-A) - Messi/Villa

I used a lot of rotations in midfield in terms players and roles for the 2 MCs. But I kept it very consistent regarding my front three, roles and players - Bojan played only around 10 games, Deulofeu only around 15, while Villa played a lot because Messi was out for 3 months. I kept very organized rotation for my back 4 and I think this perhaps was one of the keys for allowing only 24 goals against in 65 games. Montoya and Muniesa played around 20 games each, while Alves and Alba played around 40 games each. I was the most consistent perhaps with my 2 DCs - Pique played 59 games, while Bartra played 60 games, all as starters. I also had Puyol but he only played less than 10 games (too old). Interestingly all my defenders had an AVR of above 7.50 and it wasn't so much because they scored a lot or assisted a lot - Alves and Alba had 7 assists each, Pique and Bartra had 8 goals each. After most of my matches, my fans were excited by the play of either Pique or Bartra or even both of them.

I've concluded that besides good tactical instructions, a consistent partnership in the DCs positions is key to having a solid defense. Also, a consistent front 3 is key to having a productive attacking force. Of course rotations could be useful, but if one overdoes it, then it will be counter productive IMO.

Anyway, now in the start of my 4th season I'm trying a different marking set up. My 2 DCs are on tight zonal marking, fullbacks and FC are on loose zonal. DM, 2 MCs and AMR/L are all on tight man-marking. I know my previous marking system led to a very strong defensive record, but I felt that it allowed the opposition to make and complete too many passes in the midfield, because my players were on tight zonal marking. Hence, I've decided in the new season to change my midfield marking to tight man-marking to be closer to the opposition midfielders and disrupt their passing. Do you think that makes sense what I'm doing?

No problems whatsoever. I'll shout 'Drop Deep' far more often than 'Push Higher'.

The formation usually dictates this. Take, for example, against a flat 442:

You have 3 guys in the spaces that the 442 gives you between the lines. If you push up you're limiting that space, drop deep and you help create it.

I'll quote a fantastic little truism which I think comes from ZdlR:

"Playing wider creates gaps between players whereas playing deeper creates space between the lines"

As a starting point this quote is fantastic. The 41221 enjoys playing deeper because it not only allows space between the lines but also critically enlarges the Danger Zone between DC and MC. This isn't a problem for you because you have a DM sat in there but it could be for your opposition. With 5 players set to exploit this space it makes sense to have it large.

Plus, the 41221 shape is inherently a fantastic counter attacking threat so playing deep helps to draw the opposition out and create space for counters or for 'counter-style' attacks (i.e. fairly quick, direct attacks).

If you think that Chelsea under Mourinho were immensely successful with this formation and Barca conquered the world with it, whilst neither played particularly high, and it makes sense.

Similarly, there's nothing wrong with having Counter or Standard as your de facto strategy even if you're the best team in the world. It suits this formation and won't limit your attacking play - I've got screenies where I've played Standard for the whole match and had 40 shots on goal (and they weren't all ridiculous longshots) and 10 CCC's.

This is also interesting. I don't find myself using "drop deeper" shout too much. In fact, I actually use "push up higher", especially in all my home games.

Can I ask what other manual tweaks you use or you've tried? Do you change the "wide play" of the default TC for individual players? Do you change things like "cross ball to", "cross from", "roaming", etc.?

[MeesterCat]

I'm soaking all this info up!

I'd been tinkering with a 41221 in my save after reading a different Furious thread and trying to overcome my team's problem of being very static and ponderous in attack.

Well some tactical tweaks and a couple of player upgrades during the close season looks to have really paid dividends. Being more liberal with roaming and 'Runs From Deep' have helped, along with a couple of player upgrades and a general better understanding of the interplay between players and strata is making my team much more dynamic. The play feels better too.

I've taken Furious' base 41221 and applied a few tweaks to suit my players so I'm now running with the following:

GK

DL (WB-S)

DCl (BPD-D)

DCr (D-D)

DR (FB-Auto)

DMC (A_D)

MCl (DLP-S)

MCr (MC-A)

AML (IF-A)

AMR (IF-A)

STR (DLF-S)

The aim for attacking play is threefold:

1) The front three are all set to roam to create lots of space and movement for each other. Now I have Cristaldo I finally have good, creative striker who can mix things up more with his vision and movement.

2) The right MC is essentially in the AMC position when attacking but deeper when defending to maintain numbers. I managed to get Granero who, I am hoping, will make lots of late runs to the edge of the box and also to have the flair to thread through balls if we find ourselves camped on the edge of the 18 yard box.

3) My two LBs are Digne and Tabanou who thrive on going forward (Tabanou especially). As my AML is Eden Hazard who like to cut inside, this should give lots of opportunities for overlaps. The MCl on a DLP-S duty should hopefully stay deeper to provide cover when the DL bombs forward.

Well, that's the theory! Early indications suggest its working, but I've not come up against quality opposition yet.

[Jambo98]

Am the only one who is having success playing this shape with a poacher? Interested that most seem to play a DLF or TM(s) and use the focal point as false nine type (such is the fashion!)

I mentioned earlier that i use this shape and have poacher with maxed out mentality, playing on the shoulder. It seems to be very effective both when playing as the underdog and as the favourite. My Striker got 52 goals in 54 games last season, which was season 2. I had won the treble in season 1, so teams would be sitting in more in season 2. I did worry that they would sit too deep and i wouldnt be able to keep the same philosophy, as no space in behind, but that didnt turn out to be the case. In the odd game where i was being frustrated, it was a case of having "plan b" and changing to having either a DLF(s) or a Treq up front.

My striker is good but not amazing, ive had similar success with other teams, just wondered if anyone else trying this slightly different approach?

[yonko]

Am the only one who is having success playing this shape with a poacher? Interested that most seem to play a DLF or TM(s) and use the focal point as false nine type (such is the fashion!)

I mentioned earlier that i use this shape and have poacher with maxed out mentality, playing on the shoulder. It seems to be very effective both when playing as the underdog and as the favourite. My Striker got 52 goals in 54 games last season, which was season 2. I had won the treble in season 1, so teams would be sitting in more in season 2. I did worry that they would sit too deep and i wouldnt be able to keep the same philosophy, as no space in behind, but that didnt turn out to be the case. In the odd game where i was being frustrated, it was a case of having "plan b" and changing to having either a DLF(s) or a Treq up front.

My striker is good but not amazing, ive had similar success with other teams, just wondered if anyone else trying this slightly different approach?

I think that how successful is your STC in any role, it depends on a lot of things. First, of course it depends on his individual attributes. Second, it depends on how the players around him are set up. Third, it depends on the reputation of your team and how the opposition plays against you.

I have personally favored using a Trequartista as my STC. Of course, I have Messi, but I've also used in different games the likes of Villa, Sanchez, Rafinha (tutored by Messi) and now I have Neymar. I prefer to set my STC as a hybrid between provider and scorer, but each player I use in that role plays differently. My wingers are set up as Inside Forwards, which is also a balance between scorers and providers, though they score and provide less than my STC. My MCs are set up mainly as providers.

Of course, one could set up their STC strictly as a scorer in an Advanced Forward or Poacher role, but then I think that the wingers need to be set up as more of a providers, for example Advanced Playmakers (attack duty). Also, perhaps one of the 2 MCs needs to be given a role that pushes him further up the field as well in front of the opposition defenders. I'm thinking something like this:

STC = Advanced Forward/Poacher

AML = Advanced Playmaker, attack

AMR = Winger, support

MCL = DLP, support

MCR = Center Midfielder, attack

OR

STC = Advanced Forward/Poacher

AML = Winger, attack

AMR = Winger, attack

MCL = Center Midfielder, support

MCR = Center Midfielder, attack

I haven't tried something like that yet, but I'm guessing it could work. How are the players around your Poacher STC set up?

[mikcheck]

No problems whatsoever. I'll shout 'Drop Deep' far more often than 'Push Higher'.

The formation usually dictates this. Take, for example, against a flat 442:

You have 3 guys in the spaces that the 442 gives you between the lines. If you push up you're limiting that space, drop deep and you help create it.

I'll quote a fantastic little truism which I think comes from ZdlR:

"Playing wider creates gaps between players whereas playing deeper creates space between the lines"

As a starting point this quote is fantastic. The 41221 enjoys playing deeper because it not only allows space between the lines but also critically enlarges the Danger Zone between DC and MC. This isn't a problem for you because you have a DM sat in there but it could be for your opposition. With 5 players set to exploit this space it makes sense to have it large.

Plus, the 41221 shape is inherently a fantastic counter attacking threat so playing deep helps to draw the opposition out and create space for counters or for 'counter-style' attacks (i.e. fairly quick, direct attacks).

If you think that Chelsea under Mourinho were immensely successful with this formation and Barca conquered the world with it, whilst neither played particularly high, and it makes sense.

Similarly, there's nothing wrong with having Counter or Standard as your de facto strategy even if you're the best team in the world. It suits this formation and won't limit your attacking play - I've got screenies where I've played Standard for the whole match and had 40 shots on goal (and they weren't all ridiculous longshots) and 10 CCC's.

furiousuk one more thing, how deep is enough to create more space with a Control strategy? Do you think in the middle is ok? Because going too deep also invite too much pressure

[Jambo98]

I think that how successful is your STC in any role, it depends on a lot of things. First, of course it depends on his individual attributes. Second, it depends on how the players around him are set up. Third, it depends on the reputation of your team and how the opposition plays against you.

I have personally favored using a Trequartista as my STC. Of course, I have Messi, but I've also used in different games the likes of Villa, Sanchez, Rafinha (tutored by Messi) and now I have Neymar. I prefer to set my STC as a hybrid between provider and scorer, but each player I use in that role plays differently. My wingers are set up as Inside Forwards, which is also a balance between scorers and providers, though they score and provide less than my STC. My MCs are set up mainly as providers.

Of course, one could set up their STC strictly as a scorer in an Advanced Forward or Poacher role, but then I think that the wingers need to be set up as more of a providers, for example Advanced Playmakers (attack duty). Also, perhaps one of the 2 MCs needs to be given a role that pushes him further up the field as well in front of the opposition defenders. I'm thinking something like this:

STC = Advanced Forward/Poacher

AML = Advanced Playmaker, attack

AMR = Winger, support

MCL = DLP, support

MCR = Center Midfielder, attack

OR

STC = Advanced Forward/Poacher

AML = Winger, attack

AMR = Winger, attack

MCL = Center Midfielder, support

MCR = Center Midfielder, attack

I haven't tried something like that yet, but I'm guessing it could work. How are the players around your Poacher STC set up?

My setup is

STC = Poacher (a)

AML = IF(a)

AMR = Winger (s)

MCR = Advanced Playmaker (a)

MCL = Centre Midfield (s)

DMC = Defensive Midfield (d)

LB = Wingback (s)

RB = Fullback (auto)

CBL = BPD (d)

CDR = Centre defender (d)

GK = Goalkeeper (d)

I have had good success with a variety of players in those roles. As long as common sense is applied, eg right footer playing IF, who has some finishing and compusure, winger on the right has some acceleration/pace/dribbling. Playmaker is a playmaker. Success there from world class like Dzagoev down to the more modest Rudi Skacel, and in between Levan Kenia.

Actually the biggest problems with this set up are it can be a bit weak defensively i think. The WB on the left can leave a gap, and if the playmaker and CM have advanced, then you can have a problem. Essentially you can be victim to counter attacks.

Going forward, i love how this works. The ST definately pulls both centre backs deep, and allows the space for the IF and AdvPM to work. The overlapping WB overloads the defense/midfield and the winger sticks wide meaning he often has acres of space to work in. Secondly i find the CM(s) gets a lot of second balls around the area. He tends to advance and "hover". This is why a long shooter can be lethal there. Guarin is no better than average for team like Twente, but he was unbelievable in my team.

This set up is also superb when your the underdog. This is the setup i used to beat Spain 5 v 0 with my scotland team (screenie available). Essentially the BPD and the DM and APM and the IF all play through balls, and the striker is always on the shoulder. If he is quick, doesnt need to be lightning, (15 pace is more then enough, even at top level), he can get so many one v ones.

I am giving same set up a whirls as wigan now, with the orignal squad plus Gattuso to play DM (they have no one). Be interested to see how it works in the EPL, as i have not used it there yet.

[retrodude09]

Going to have a long read of this thread tomorrow I think, I'm just not enjoying football manager at the moment and it's coming down to my tactics, and I have no idea why.

From skimming over this, it looks brilliant though

[llama3]

you know i always ask my team to push higher - i like heavy pressing anyway, and ever since my 8-0 defeat to man utd on an earlier save, and cleon pointed out that telling my team to drop deeper despite naturally having pressing instructions meant they did neither properly and consequently got pulled to pieces

[Gee_Simpson]

@ JOSEPH! - I've sent you PM's a few days back. I was just wondering if you had noticed them?

[zaragorn]

Gonna try this formation with my save in the Dutch Jupiler league. Lower class so not that great players but should get results. GK on Sweep Sup, the two DC's on Def, Full backs on attack, DM on DEF, CM couple on Advanced Playmaker Sup, AML and AMR on Inside Forward Att and my ST on Deep Lying Forward Sup. Role for the ST I find hard to choose but I guess with this choice he hangs arround in front of the opposition CD en waits for a cross from the Att Full Backs or a pass in to the box from the 2 CM's or the AML or AMR. Only tweak I did was setting the Full backs on hug touchline. First game was a win againts (2-1) an opponent of the same strength at home so not really the greatest test. Went with an attacking mentality. Oh passing style is set to shorter, press more and marking on zonal.

[yonko]

I've played and finished my season 4 with Barca (of course winning everything) using slightly different than usual (for me) player roles. I played the whole season using the following set up:

Balanced Philosphy

Control Strategy

Shorter passing

More Expressive

Press more

Zonal Marking

Default Tackling

Drill crosses

More Roaming

GK - sweeper keeper, defend (defender collect)

DR - fullback, attack

DL - fullback, attack

DCs - both as central defender, defend

DM - defensive midfielder, defend

MCs - both as advanced playmaker, support

AMR/L - both as winger, attack

STC - trequartista, attack

I made sure my front 3 all had Roaming ticked. I used the marking system of furiousuk - tight man-marking for the DCs, DM and MCs, tight zonal marking for the fullbacks and the striker and loose man-marking for the wingers.

At the start of home games, I will begin the match with Attacking Strategy plus Work ball in the Box, Hassle Opponents, Stay on Feet and Push Higher Up shouts. Then latter in the match I would change back to Control strategy and shout Retain Possession plus Pass into Space, while removing Push Higher Up.

On the other hand, at the start of tough away games vs other strong teams and for away CL games in the knockout round, I would start with Counter Strategy and shout Retain Possession, Pass into Space and Work Ball into the Box. This proved very effective in most games I used it for, but especially vs Real M in the first leg of the semi-final of Copa del Rey (I won 3-1 away).

As I've said before, I've mainly used 2 Inside Forwards in all my 41221 tactics, but decided to try two Wingers instead and see what happens. It is interesting to see them play with Hugs Touchline + Roaming in their instructions. I used Neymar on the left and Sanchez on the right. Messi was the Trequartista of course. I tried to play the same front three as much as I could. Occasionally I would use Pedro on the left (but he missed the last 4 months of the season due to injury), Deulofeu on the right (he won the award for the best young player in La Liga) and Rafinha as my back-up to Messi. But Rafinha also saw a lot of games as a MC due to injuries to my midfielders (Fabregas missed 4 months of the start due to broken foot, Iniesta and Thiago had their fair share of smaller injuries and stuff).

Defensively I liked the marking system (thanks furious for sharing it) but stats-wise I allowed more goals than the season before. This time my team allowed 30 goals against in all matches (vs 24 in the season before), 12 of which were in La Liga (10 in season 3). But I think that was due to the fact that I couldn't use the partnership of Bartra-Pique as much and as consistently as the previous season. Bartra missed the last 4 months of the season due to injury and I had to use the Kurt Zouma as Pique's partner. Granted, not a bad player to use, but he hasn't yet developed as much as Bartra, though the amount of games he played would increase his development now. Offensively, I scored 149 goals in La Liga (more than any of the previous 3 seasons, 146 was the highest from season 1) and 213 in all matches. Strangely, overall I scored less goals than previous seasons, but more than ever in La Liga. I think my scoring in the CL was down from previous seasons, perhaps due to using Counter strategy for away games in the knockout rounds.

Also, the scoring and assisting was nicely spread amongst my front 3. Messi didn't finish with the most assists as he usually does in all my Barca saves and seasons before. Neymar had the most assists, but also Sanchez assisted more than Messi too. Of course Leo finished as my top scorer with 75 goals (52 in La Liga), but both Neymar and Sanchez scored more goals than I expected as Wingers (also considering neither of them has Places Shots as PPM) as opposed to being Inside Forwards. And they both missed a lot of chances one on one with the GKs because of lack of Places Shots PPM (I'm thinking of trying to teach both Neymar and Sanchez that PPM, Deulofeu learned it because he was twice tutored by Pedro).

I would like to post a screenshot of my players' stats. Can anyone recommend me an image hosting site? I usually use imageshack but now they ask me for registration and I don't want to register. In the meantime, I will just type the stats of my front 3:

Sanchez - 48(8)apps - 33goals - 29assists - 10 MOMs - 7.76 avr

Neymar - 56(3)apps - 39goals - 39assists - 14 MOMs - 7.87 avr

Messi - 50(2)apps - 75goals - 22assists - 24 MOMs - 8.45 avr

BTW, a 35-year old Xavi had these stats: 37(3)apps - 2goals - 15assists - 7.44 avr. He played the most games of any of my midfielders (more than I intended him to) due to injuries of others. He still got it.....

[furiousuk]

Sometimes you just score less goals in a season, it's no biggy. There's always a little bit of randomness involved and if you've been struggling with injuries then it makes sense.

Imageshack registration is free, I'd just go with that. Being registered also means you can organise your snaps easier and you have less worry about the host deleting them. There are other options but you'd probably have to register for those too. Hosting ain't cheap, hence all the advertising that comes with free hosting! The registration gives them an address they might flog (most don't nowadays) but if you're worried about that just set up a junk hotmail account and don't put anything sensitive (like make payments etc) in there. Hotmail is pretty darned secure anyway (although all my contacts have had my asking if they need certain *enlargements* recently! As I said, a junk account helps keep this sort of thing confined to your 'useless' junk account).

[yonko]

Sometimes you just score less goals in a season, it's no biggy. There's always a little bit of randomness involved and if you've been struggling with injuries then it makes sense.

Imageshack registration is free, I'd just go with that. Being registered also means you can organise your snaps easier and you have less worry about the host deleting them. There are other options but you'd probably have to register for those too. Hosting ain't cheap, hence all the advertising that comes with free hosting! The registration gives them an address they might flog (most don't nowadays) but if you're worried about that just set up a junk hotmail account and don't put anything sensitive (like make payments etc) in there. Hotmail is pretty darned secure anyway (although all my contacts have had my asking if they need certain *enlargements* recently! As I said, a junk account helps keep this sort of thing confined to your 'useless' junk account).

I'm not worried that much about scoring less goals. I actually enjoyed my 4th season on my save the most. It was challenging on many levels. However, I'm enjoying how my team is playing, how the youngsters are stepping up, how much the squad has gelled because I do not buy many players. At the same time I'm trying different tactical tweaks and I feel how the AI is trying to play differently against me each season.

I never thought that I could make my 41221 tactic work with using 2 Wingers rather than Inside Forwards. I like how all my front 3 contributed, how my midfield always worked to control the midfield despite missing injured players, and how my defense was defending especially in the big games. In my first season, when I was using 2 Inside Forwards and AP-support+DLP-support midfield combo, I was too dependent on Messi (as Barca are IRL) and his goals+assists (he got 90+ goals and 30+ assists). Xavi also had a lot of assists because I was scoring more goals from corner kicks, which now have dried up in the 4th season even though I have players like Kurt Zouma and Kara who are taller and better in the air than Puyol. Most of the assists my midfielders make are now mostly from open play, as I have tons of space in attack due to using Wingers with Hug Touchline instead of Inside Forwards with Cut Inside, though the Wingers still have roaming on. In addition, my Trequartista is moving very nicely all over the place, dropping deep when needed, charging the penalty box to finish off crosses from the wingers and fullbacks (they drill the crosses low) and moving into the channels causing all sorts of problems.

Now I'm thinking what other tactical changes can I make or will need to make (depending on how the AI plays against me in the 5th season) to my 41221. I'm considering using 343 with a diamond in the midfield (DM, 2MCs, AM) at least for home games. But I'm having second thoughts about it since my 41221 works so well now. However, the development of some my youngsters might force me to look for different formation. For example, I have this amazing Brazilian regen ST called Cesar who is 19 now and ready to get games for my first team. He scored tons of goals for my U19s and is rated by all my scouts and assistant manager to have potential to be as great as Messi. Cesar is tall (about 189cm if I recall correctly), strong (17 for strength) and good in the air (heading 17, jumping 14). But he also has dribbling 18, finishing 20, first touch 17, passing 18, anticipation 15, determination 18, off the ball 15. His only weaknesses are that acceleration is 11, pace is 13, creativity is 12 and flair is also 12. I can't recall what his decision attribute is, but I think is between 12 and 16, so it's decent. I've focused his development on his weaknesses and have already tutored him with Messi. I guess I could use him as my Plan B (which IRL Barca do not have).

As for Imageshack, I guess I would have to register and post some screenshots.

[furiousuk]

It's all about evolution and even revolution at times.

I'm slowly integrating a 4312 which will supercede my usual 41221, probably next season. It just better reflects the nature of my squad and allows me to get the best (hopefully) out of players who are just starting to blossom. Plus it keeps things fresh for me too. I'll still use the 41221 of course, probably loads so it's no problem. As your squad changes you have to make adaptations.

I've used the 343 you suggest before, it's what Guardiola used at Barca a few times too under certain circumstances. My first move was to make everything the same, just move a CB to AMC and pull the FB's in so I had 3 DC's. Worked pretty well straight off but I think it'll work better with wingers as I used IF's so things got mighty congested in the middle - still, in my case it worked just fine. I only used it a couple of times, I'm a secret fan of slightly unwieldy formations but only as an augmentation to otherwise fairly basic and straight-forward tactics. Bit of a Ferguson really, just slight tweaks here or there which can drastically alter the dynamics of your team - most people might not notice but some innocuous changes really do have far reaching effects.

[yonko]

It's all about evolution and even revolution at times.

I'm slowly integrating a 4312 which will supercede my usual 41221, probably next season. It just better reflects the nature of my squad and allows me to get the best (hopefully) out of players who are just starting to blossom. Plus it keeps things fresh for me too. I'll still use the 41221 of course, probably loads so it's no problem. As your squad changes you have to make adaptations.

I've used the 343 you suggest before, it's what Guardiola used at Barca a few times too under certain circumstances. My first move was to make everything the same, just move a CB to AMC and pull the FB's in so I had 3 DC's. Worked pretty well straight off but I think it'll work better with wingers as I used IF's so things got mighty congested in the middle - still, in my case it worked just fine. I only used it a couple of times, I'm a secret fan of slightly unwieldy formations but only as an augmentation to otherwise fairly basic and straight-forward tactics. Bit of a Ferguson really, just slight tweaks here or there which can drastically alter the dynamics of your team - most people might not notice but some innocuous changes really do have far reaching effects.

Oh, I agree with you. But it's just so hard to move away from the 41221 for me. I just love it too much and for a long time. If I move away from it, it will be to change to 343 but with defensive fullbacks (DR, DL, DC) like Cleon's tactic. Having said that, I don't want to turn this discussion into one about the 343, especially since there is a thread about it already (started recently in fact).

I will wait and see if my 41221 continues to work as is against the AI in the 5th season. BTW, the change to using Wingers on attack happened gradually. I actually started the 4th season by playing the first few games with Neymar in AML as Inside Forward-attack, while Sanchez was AMR as Winger-attack. But then I realized that Neymar wasn't cutting inside the fullback and one of the DCs as much as I wanted him to and as much the Inside Forward role is supposed to make him. He has "moves into channels" as his only PPM and he is pretty much two-footed. Also, my assistant manager recommended for him in the report to use him as Winger-attack in the AML position (when in STC position the recommendation is to use him as Trequartista, which I've also done on occasions). Therefore I decided, what the hell, I'll use him as Winger-attack just like Sanchez on the other side. As a result, Neymar started to score and assist even more so than before when he was deployed as Inside Forward. Messi and Sanchez started to score more also as result of Neymar's assists. My attack opened up, so to speak and everyone had more space to play in. However, both Neymar and Sanchez still make runs behind the defenders and diagonally towards goal, because they have roaming and are very intelligent players with very good off the ball attributes. Deulofeu and Pedro did pretty much the same things, though their identical PPMs, which include Cuts Inside, helps them.

The more spread out attack also helps my 2 Advanced Playmakers as well. They are shredding the opposition with through balls all game. They would have more assists (as well as Messi) if both Neymar and Sanchez scored more of their one-on-one chances vs the GKs. What do you think I should do to help my Wingers score more of those one-on-one chances? Should I make them learn to place their shots? Round the GK? Lob the ball over? Shoot with power?

Thanks

[Gee_Simpson]

The more spread out attack also helps my 2 Advanced Playmakers as well. They are shredding the opposition with through balls all game. They would have more assists (as well as Messi) if both Neymar and Sanchez scored more of their one-on-one chances vs the GKs. What do you think I should do to help my Wingers score more of those one-on-one chances? Should I make them learn to place their shots? Round the GK? Lob the ball over? Shoot with power?

Thanks

I would try this as I guess most of their chances are from an angle instead of straight on? Then the 'places shots' PPM would be useful to them.

[yonko]

I would try this as I guess most of their chances are from an angle instead of straight on? Then the 'places shots' PPM would be useful to them.

I actually Neymar and Sanchez as my Wingers get both type of chances - some are from an angle and some are from straight on. They get the former when I've put the opposition into their penalty box and they "park the bus" so to speak. The latter happens when teams come out and attack me more, then I get lots of break aways because of the tons of space they leave behind their defense.

Is the PPM "places shots" still worth teaching them? BTW, I usually never teach players new PPMs, only if they pick up any from tutoring. Therefore I could use some guidelines as to how to set up Neymar and Sanchez to start learning that PPM.

[yonko]

And just to add as separate post. I've decided to change my Philosophy from Balanced to Fluid for the 5th season with Barca. I can't remember when was the last time I used Fluid as my Philosophy. For some reason I've always preferred Balanced.

I've played already two pre-season friendlies against Seattle and Chicago in USA and won both of them 3-1. But I can already see that my team passes the ball better. The passing patterns and circulation looks more....well....fluid. I will stick with it and see what happens. I've also changed my DM from Defensive Midfielder-defend to DLP-defend as I plan on rotating Busquets and Sergi Samper in that position (I sold Mascherano to Chelsea). Now he looks to be more involved and has better movement. I'm yet to see if that will have any negative side effects on my defending. All other roles and duties are the same as I've posted in post #164. The other small tweak is that my Wingers "cross from" is now Mixed instead of Byline.

[furiousuk]

I'd probably go ahead and teach them Places Shots. Most of their chances have got to be from a angle (haven't they?) so I've also thought it's useful. It's not detrimental to a player, particularly with incredible technique, so it's fine to have them learn it. I think it's generally of more use than Shoots with Power for high technique players but there aren't any hard-and-fast rules. I'm pretty sure there is an SFraser thread on the contrast between these PPM's.

Here we go http://bit.ly/Pcimu0

[karax268]

Does anyone have tips on what to do when facing a formation with a DM? No matter what I try I always struggle against a DM.

[yonko]

Well, I've set Neymar to learn to place his shots, but not Sanchez because he is set to tutor one of my talented young wingers. I don't know if this makes sense, but I'm pretty sure I saw Neymar score 4 goals since then with placed shots, hat-trick in one game. One of the goals was when he dribble past two defenders on the left side of the penalty box and then curled an accurate shot in the far corner, in off the post. Two of the goals were 1v1 with the GK in more central positions and Neymar simply placed it around the GK. Is it normal to see a player placing his shots already while he is still learning that PPM?

On another note, I really like how my tactic plays now with Fluid Philosophy! The team looks more together now when Attacking or Defending, due to the players' close mentalities. Using a DLP-defend role at DM hasn't hindered my defending at all. My two Advanced Playmakers have already scored a few goals and made some wonderful assists from open plays. I think that the Fluid Philosophy has made them more of a threat to the opposition. Usually I see one of the MCs get in the box when my winger or fullback is about to cross the ball. And that is exactly how Fabregas, Iniesta and Thiago have scored a goal a piece so far.

It is interesting for me to see how changing the Philosophy from Balanced to Fluid can have so much effect on how your tactic plays. BTW, I'm using a lot of specific man-marking for my wingers and midfielders against the opposition's fullbacks and midfielders.

[yonko]

Does anyone have tips on what to do when facing a formation with a DM? No matter what I try I always struggle against a DM.

I always specifically man-mark their DM with one of my MCs. Against 41212 with ML and MR, I even set both of my MCs to man-mark their DM.

[furiousuk]

Does anyone have tips on what to do when facing a formation with a DM? No matter what I try I always struggle against a DM.

I normally close down and hard target their DM, even if he obviously isn't much of a playmaker. With a 3-man midfield like a 41221 it isn't a problem if one MC pushes up higher to mark the DM but in other formations it's potentially a problem. For many 2 striker formations it is often better to have an FC specific man-mark the DM so you don't get overrun in midfield too easily.

Well, I've set Neymar to learn to place his shots, but not Sanchez because he is set to tutor one of my talented young wingers. I don't know if this makes sense, but I'm pretty sure I saw Neymar score 4 goals since then with placed shots, hat-trick in one game. One of the goals was when he dribble past two defenders on the left side of the penalty box and then curled an accurate shot in the far corner, in off the post. Two of the goals were 1v1 with the GK in more central positions and Neymar simply placed it around the GK. Is it normal to see a player placing his shots already while he is still learning that PPM?

On another note, I really like how my tactic plays now with Fluid Philosophy! The team looks more together now when Attacking or Defending, due to the players' close mentalities. Using a DLP-defend role at DM hasn't hindered my defending at all. My two Advanced Playmakers have already scored a few goals and made some wonderful assists from open plays. I think that the Fluid Philosophy has made them more of a threat to the opposition. Usually I see one of the MCs get in the box when my winger or fullback is about to cross the ball. And that is exactly how Fabregas, Iniesta and Thiago have scored a goal a piece so far.

It is interesting for me to see how changing the Philosophy from Balanced to Fluid can have so much effect on how your tactic plays. BTW, I'm using a lot of specific man-marking for my wingers and midfielders against the opposition's fullbacks and midfielders.

It's not normal to see him place shots having immediately started learning the PPM but its a sign that he has the required technique as he already performs the move through decision-making alone! Surely a good sign that he'll successfully learn the PPM!

I love the way how changes in philosophy can sometimes radically alter what happens. The change in sliders is often subtle but it produces different play nonetheless. Clever system.

[yonko]

It's not normal to see him place shots having immediately started learning the PPM but its a sign that he has the required technique as he already performs the move through decision-making alone! Surely a good sign that he'll successfully learn the PPM!

I love the way how changes in philosophy can sometimes radically alter what happens. The change in sliders is often subtle but it produces different play nonetheless. Clever system.

Yeah, I find it encouraging to see Neymar do that. I'll see if he keeps on doing it as the season goes on and his learning process continues.

It's true how subtle changes can make the difference. I'm just happy that the changes I make to my 41221 keep it interesting for me to the point where I don't feel bored and change the formation. I actually have come to discover more possibilities with the 41221 and now use options I haven't dared to try before, even though I've used that formation 90% of the time in my FM experiences. I had never used Wingers-attack before, I had never used Fluid Philosophy before, but now I do. I'm sure I'll think of something new for next season again, as I like to spend a full season playing with changes I've already made.

[higgins]

No problems whatsoever. I'll shout 'Drop Deep' far more often than 'Push Higher'.

The formation usually dictates this. Take, for example, against a flat 442:

You have 3 guys in the spaces that the 442 gives you between the lines. If you push up you're limiting that space, drop deep and you help create it.

I'll quote a fantastic little truism which I think comes from ZdlR:

"Playing wider creates gaps between players whereas playing deeper creates space between the lines"

As a starting point this quote is fantastic. The 41221 enjoys playing deeper because it not only allows space between the lines but also critically enlarges the Danger Zone between DC and MC. This isn't a problem for you because you have a DM sat in there but it could be for your opposition. With 5 players set to exploit this space it makes sense to have it large.

Plus, the 41221 shape is inherently a fantastic counter attacking threat so playing deep helps to draw the opposition out and create space for counters or for 'counter-style' attacks (i.e. fairly quick, direct attacks).

If you think that Chelsea under Mourinho were immensely successful with this formation and Barca conquered the world with it, whilst neither played particularly high, and it makes sense.

Similarly, there's nothing wrong with having Counter or Standard as your de facto strategy even if you're the best team in the world. It suits this formation and won't limit your attacking play - I've got screenies where I've played Standard for the whole match and had 40 shots on goal (and they weren't all ridiculous longshots) and 10 CCC's.

True.

Playing wide and deep is a great way to stretch you opponents without risking too much.

[zaragorn]

Gonna try this formation with my save in the Dutch Jupiler league. Lower class so not that great players but should get results. GK on Sweep Sup, the two DC's on Def, Full backs on attack, DM on DEF, CM couple on Advanced Playmaker Sup, AML and AMR on Inside Forward Att and my ST on Deep Lying Forward Sup. Role for the ST I find hard to choose but I guess with this choice he hangs arround in front of the opposition CD en waits for a cross from the Att Full Backs or a pass in to the box from the 2 CM's or the AML or AMR. Only tweak I did was setting the Full backs on hug touchline. First game was a win againts (2-1) an opponent of the same strength at home so not really the greatest test. Went with an attacking mentality. Oh passing style is set to shorter, press more and marking on zonal.

Switching to full backs on support,from inside forwards to wingers and my Deep Lying Forward St to Att insteda of Sup. Only shooting about 6 times on the opossings team goal, so try to get ab it more chances. Possesion is good with the first tactic.

[Hagi_07]

Alright lads, some thoughts on the use of a triple pivot and the choice of a hinge player. In the classic 4-1-2-2-1 positions...

DMC set as deep lying playmaker support to receive balls from defence and move up into MC position

MCl set as CM defend, hinge player who sits and plays short passes, keeps ball moving doesn't really move

MCr set as advanced playmaker (support or maybe attacking)

[furiousuk]

I'm not sure what the DLP/Supp run from deep settings are but do you find that the DLP pushes up (nearly) in line with the MCl? Or do you have to tweak his RFD to often?

[rvd313]

I've gone back to this formation on my current save after joining a struggling Bayer Leverkusen, who were mid-table and in financial crisis on my arrival in October. With one game left of the Bundesliga season to play, I've dragged the team kicking and screaming into top spot, three points clear of a seemingly invincible FC Bayern side being managed by Michael Laudrup. The penultimate match of the season saw us decimate Bayern 4-0 at home in our best performance of the season. In a previous fixture against Bayern in November, we had been absolutely hammered for 90+ minutes and were made to look like a pub team (though we inexplicably escaped with a 2-0 win). The turnaround has been nothing short of incredible.

My current set-up is as follows:

Philosophy: Very Fluid (never tried this before, but I really love it now!)

Strategy: Counter (I unticked counter-attack in specific instructions however)

Passing Style: Shorter

Creative Freedom: Default

Closing Down: Press More

Tackling: Default

Marking: Zonal

Crossing: Drill Crosses

Roaming: More Roaming

GK: Sweeper Keeper (Attack)

DR: Full Back (Attack)

DL: Full Back (Attack)

DC: Central Defender (Defend)

DC: Central Defender (Defend)

DM: Defensive Midfielder (Defend)

MCR: Advanced Playmaker (Attack)

MCL: Advanced Playmaker (Support)

AMR: Inside Forward (Attack)

AML: Inside Forward (Attack)

FC: Complete Forward (Support)

Only changes I've made to default player instructions is to set all long shots to rarely and any rwb often instruction to mixed.

This set-up is producing some absolutely scintillating football at the moment. The Very Fluid mentality gives the players a great amount of freedom of movement, resulting in unpredictable patterns of play, as you're never completely sure which player will end up the furthest up the pitch! Also, Schürrle is a joy to watch as the CF; dropping deep, going wide, stretching the defence, looking to create, looking to score - he does absolutely everything.

[furiousuk]

Sounds like a good setup, I love the lower strategy as a standard go-to strategy, so many people associate this with weaker teams but it is fantastic for stronger teams who want to dominate possession and work an opening. I normally like longer passing but you've emphasised movement so heavily (I assume player attributes match this) that I bet you have some cracking, intricate stuff going on.

I've always been a fan of the very fluid philosophy (although I'm almost always Balanced to allow more tactical control) it emphasises the players you have at your disposal. If you get some good personnel combos going on then it is truly brilliant.

I bet your version of the 433 plays out totally different to mine. I think some peeps also miss that different formations can play out very differently and you can't just say 'oh, I'm facing a 4231 with a strong AM so I'll do x,y & z', there's more to it than that if you want to look.

With attacking full-backs do you ever find they are too aggressive? Do you pen them back a little for tough games to be slightly more defensive and keep the ball more? I'm imagining your goals are fairly spread with that setup too?

[rvd313]

Sounds like a good setup, I love the lower strategy as a standard go-to strategy, so many people associate this with weaker teams but it is fantastic for stronger teams who want to dominate possession and work an opening. I normally like longer passing but you've emphasised movement so heavily (I assume player attributes match this) that I bet you have some cracking, intricate stuff going on.

Absolutely. Most of my play is concerned with little intricate passes in the final third. Pass and move. Its the type of football I like to see.

Also agree with you on the lower mentality strategies. Actually unthinkingly started on Control (after 10 seasons of SPL domination under my belt) before I realised a change was required. Love watching my team calmly play it out from the back and never rushing about like headless chickens.

I've always been a fan of the very fluid philosophy (although I'm almost always Balanced to allow more tactical control) it emphasises the players you have at your disposal. If you get some good personnel combos going on then it is truly brilliant.

First time I've used a very fluid philosophy as I say, after using a balanced philosophy religiously since about FM10. I'm very pleased with the results. As you say it really emphasises the character of your players. You can play two players in the same role and get two entirely different interpretations of that role.

With attacking full-backs do you ever find they are too aggressive? Do you pen them back a little for tough games to be slightly more defensive and keep the ball more? I'm imagining your goals are fairly spread with that setup too?

Nope, I don't find them to be too aggressive, which is probably due to the very fluid philosophy, which allows them to use their head and judge the best place to position themselves. I think it really depends on the players in this philosophy, as mentioned previously. My first-choice RB is more aggressive than my LB and ends up playing like a winger most of the time (great due to the fact that my AMR ends up central more often than not), while my LB shows more defensive and team awareness, picking and choosing the right time to get forward. When I played two fullbacks on attack with a balanced philosophy however I found that they'd bunch up against my inside forwards, creating all sorts of headaches.

I never change my fullbacks role for the bigger games. I think that shows far too much respect for the opposition. If your set-up is doing well and your players are playing with confidence, why change things for one game? By all means, I'll happily change things during a game if required, but my approach is always the same regardless of opposition.

My goals are indeed spread pretty evenly, mainly amongst the front three. Generally speaking, I'm currently playing an inverted winger at AML, a creative forward at FC and a goal poacher at AMR. Naturally my AMR finished as the league's top scorer, with my FC (who also had the most assists) not far behind. My MC's also racked up a decent number of goals.

[yonko]

Interesting....

At the moment I'm using the following:

Fluid Philosophy

Control Strategy

Shorter Passing

More Expressive freedom

Press More

Default Tackling

Zonal Marking (every one is manually clicked to zone mark, wingers are set to man mark)

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

GK - sweeper keeper, defend

DR/L - wingback, attack

DCs - central defender, cover

DM - anchor man, defend

MCs - advanced playmaker, support

AMR/L - inside forwards, attack

STC - DLF, support

My team is playing some really good stuff with this set up. BTW, I use Counter Strategy for some tough away games.

[yaşar]

Interesting....

At the moment I'm using the following:

Fluid Philosophy

Control Strategy

Shorter Passing

More Expressive freedom

Press More

Default Tackling

Zonal Marking (every one is manually clicked to zone mark, wingers are set to man mark)

Drill Crosses

More Roaming

GK - sweeper keeper, defend

DR/L - wingback, attack

DCs - central defender, cover

DM - anchor man, defend

MCs - advanced playmaker, support

AMR/L - inside forwards, attack

STC - DLF, support

My team is playing some really good stuff with this set up. BTW, I use Counter Strategy for some tough away games.

İnteresting set up . How well your team with this ?

[yonko]

İnteresting set up . How well your team with this ?

My team is doing excellently. I'm playing with Barca in my 6th season. I haven't lost in La Liga for 3 years, though that's with different variations of the same formation (41221). By different, I mean changing players' roles, philosophy and marking settings - I've been experimenting a lot with different 41221 set ups. With this current set up, I'm seeing some very good style played on the 3D view. It may be also due to the fact that I haven't been buying too many new players each season. Needless to say, I've been winning all the trophies every season. My current team looks like this:

GK - Llorris/Perazzi (regen)

DR - Montoya/Romario

DL - Alba/Grimaldo

DCs - Pique/Bartra/Muniesa/Zouma

DMs - Busquets/Samper/Kara

MCs - Iniesta/Thiago/Fabregas/Wilshere (just bought him at the Winter of 2016/17)

AMR - Sanchez/Pedro/Deulofeu

AML - Neymar/Sanchez/Deulofeu

STC - Messi/Cesar (regen)

I still have Valdes but he has decided to leave on a free transfer at the end of the current season. I also have Rafinha on loan at Lyon.

[Nadiy]

This is one of my current set up with Manchester United

So the strategy would be Rooney dropping deep in the danger zone, pressing and closing down defenders as well as creating chances for the wide strikers. Somewhat similar to how RVP plays in Arsenal. I believe this is a good set up, isnt it? How else can I improve it? I have yet play a game. I'll probably post anaylsis of it.

Currently, I have Kagawa, Cleverley but I'd picked the old two, Giggs and Scholes due to the reason higher attributes in passing & creativity. My question, how do I fully use the ability of Kagawa? I suppose with his high attributes in Off The Ball, I reckon he'd make a good Inside Forward?

Aside that, good thread. Had learnt a lot.

[yonko]

This is one of my current set up with Manchester United

So the strategy would be Rooney dropping deep in the danger zone, pressing and closing down defenders as well as creating chances for the wide strikers. Somewhat similar to how RVP plays in Arsenal. I believe this is a good set up, isnt it? How else can I improve it? I have yet play a game. I'll probably post anaylsis of it.

Currently, I have Kagawa, Cleverley but I'd picked the old two, Giggs and Scholes due to the reason higher attributes in passing & creativity. My question, how do I fully use the ability of Kagawa? I suppose with his high attributes in Off The Ball, I reckon he'd make a good Inside Forward?

Aside that, good thread. Had learnt a lot.

I think that you can definitely use Kagawa as Inside Forward-attack from the AMR or AML positions. But if you do that, then I suggest you put him on a high (perhaps even Intense) Tactics on his training schedule. This way he can improve on his anticipation, composure, decisions and teamwork. I would also put him on Individual focus to improve his finishing.

Your player roles look very good. What Philosophy and Strategy are you using?

[Nadiy]

I think that you can definitely use Kagawa as Inside Forward-attack from the AMR or AML positions. But if you do that, then I suggest you put him on a high (perhaps even Intense) Tactics on his training schedule. This way he can improve on his anticipation, composure, decisions and teamwork. I would also put him on Individual focus to improve his finishing.

Okay, thank you. It's probably time to make my own training schedules.

Your player roles look very good. What Philosophy and Strategy are you using?

I went for Balanced/Control.

I want my team to do a fast-paced passing, and suddenly 'bam!', my DLF slot in a through pass to a wide striker. How do I encourage my team to pass around instead of pumping the ball and losing it?

[furiousuk]

What are your team instructions?

Lower mentality and plenty of movement normally encourage your team to pass the ball more.

The only thing that I'd say about your team is that it is pretty slow and Kagawa is also pretty slow. This isn't necessarily a problem, certainly not for ball retention, but something to consider. Kagawa's only skill is dribbling at the opposition, something he looks superb at but, again, lacks pace so if you could get him doing this right up in the danger zone then that would be a good idea - it wouldn't matter if there were opponents because he looks so good at dribbling he could weave through tight spaces with ease! Pushing up (if your defence allows it, which I think it probably would) would probably help to combat a lack of pace, although, to be fair, it's just centrally you're particularly lacking pace so it's probably fine anyway.

Carrick is very creative as well, using him as DM is cool but an additional DLP would probably work if you needed extra creativity (at the possible expense of a lack of pass completion). I'd worry that Carrick's lack of pace may hamper him from covering marauding full-backs but his mentals are good so might compensate.

You might want to consider Complete Forward for Rooney up top as well, even with an Attack duty. His mentals are fantastic so he just needs to be given his head, he'll use that space because has creative ability, particularly if you use lots of creative freedom.

Looks like a good setup though, I'd certainly have to give it some attention if I was facing you in my next game!

[wally13]

When people mention lower mentality are you referring to the defensive and attacking slider ?

[aston_martin]

Something I've found interesting recently is that I've set up with a narrow diamond, is that in a way, it sort of operates like a 4-1-2-2-1, in a sort of Barcelona type way. There are differences obviously (my 2 CM's sit somehwere between the roles that Xavi/Iniesta play and what Lampard/Essien did.).

I set up like this:

DR: WB (auto)

DL: WB (auto)

DC: Whatever the default setting is

DC: Whatever the default setting is

DM: DLP (defend)

CM: B2B

CM: B2B

AM: Treq

STL: CF (support)

STR: poacher

The DM acts a lot like Busquets for Barca, sitting just behind the 2 CM's, always available to pass to and negating counters, The AM acts much like Messi, in the sort of false 9 role, doesn't score as many, but then I'm playing with less talented players than Barca. The STL sort of pulls out deep and wide, and moves between the left flank and the shoulder of the CB's, while the STR does the same but without dropping as deep, he moves between wide areas and the shoulder of the CB's, but holds a higher position generally. So the front three can end up very Barca-esque. There's a lot of possession football, slow buildup in the middle of the park, and then when they get into the final third, there's this sudden overload of attacking players, with the AMC threatening to beat players/pass/score himself, the Strikers moving inwards from out wide the full backs bombing on. and the CM's pushing forward, dictating it all/bursting past the AMC to score. I didn't set out to end up like Barca at all, but somehow it's ended up very much in a 4-1-2-2-1 shape when attacking, despite being a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond in strict shape.

[Nadiy]

I am sorry if this goes off-topic, if so, please tell me I'd maybe create a new thread.

What are your team instructions?[/Quote]

Philosophy: Balanced

Strategy: Control

Passing Style: Shorter

CF: More Expressive

CD: Press More

Tackling: Default

Marking: Zonal Marking

Crossing: Drill

Roaming: Default

Everything else is left default or untouched. As for individuals instructions, I only restrict them from Long Shots.

Lower mentality and plenty of movement normally encourage your team to pass the ball more.

How do i increase the movement? I assume a lot creative freedom?

The only thing that I'd say about your team is that it is pretty slow and Kagawa is also pretty slow. This isn't necessarily a problem, certainly not for ball retention, but something to consider. Kagawa's only skill is dribbling at the opposition, something he looks superb at but, again, lacks pace so if you could get him doing this right up in the danger zone then that would be a good idea - it wouldn't matter if there were opponents because he looks so good at dribbling he could weave through tight spaces with ease! Pushing up (if your defence allows it, which I think it probably would) would probably help to combat a lack of pace, although, to be fair, it's just centrally you're particularly lacking pace so it's probably fine anyway.

So what you're saying here is to put him on MC and let him dribble down the danger zone? I also had pushed up the defensive line, in a few matches, my midfielders had seen lacking behind and slow.

Looks like a good setup though, I'd certainly have to give it some attention if I was facing you in my next game!

Thank you, but not looking good in the game though. But am here to learn, thank you again.

I am trying to integrate a double pivot system. I'd put Kagawa as well as Scholes on MC with the role of Adv.PM - Support. I gave them plenty of creative freedom to do what they want. But in the game, both seem to be on the same line instead of one covering behind. Do I have to do something else?

[furiousuk]

When people mention lower mentality are you referring to the defensive and attacking slider ?

I'm not sure what you mean by attacking or defending slider but I'm referring to the mentality slider, a lower mentality is to the left and, yes, it will (very very basically) make a player more defensive. I was actually referring to the team instruction above but it's the same thing, a lower team mentality will, in theory, make your team more defensive.

However, when you dive into it a little bit more you see why 'mentality' is such a great name for it. It literally is the mind-set of a player you're controlling, if you move it to the left then the player is (tactically speaking) less inclined to get the ball into the net. They still want to score of course but they'll be less urgent to do so. Whacking it to the right means you're instructing a player to get the ball in the net any way possible as urgently as possible, this is normally a forward pass as that is normally closer to the goal. Whilst this whole paragraph is a little hard to follow there's bits concerning passing, bits concerning tempo but that is because mentality really is a 'global' slider, it effects everything (including positioning, which I haven't mentioned).

In the context of my post above: Lower mentality structures, such as Counter or Defensive, mean that you've instructed your players to be conservative with the ball. If you've otherwise set up to maintain possession then this just means that your guys are under no pressure to immediately score so they can play safe (possibly boring) passes and that is fine with your tactical setup. This generally means you'll patiently keep the ball and only play the 'killer passes' when there is a high chance of them succeeding (which is one goal of classic possession footy).

[wally13]

I'm not sure what you mean by attacking or defending slider but I'm referring to the mentality slider, a lower mentality is to the left and, yes, it will (very very basically) make a player more defensive. I was actually referring to the team instruction above but it's the same thing, a lower team mentality will, in theory, make your team more defensive.

However, when you dive into it a little bit more you see why 'mentality' is such a great name for it. It literally is the mind-set of a player you're controlling, if you move it to the left then the player is (tactically speaking) less inclined to get the ball into the net. They still want to score of course but they'll be less urgent to do so. Whacking it to the right means you're instructing a player to get the ball in the net any way possible as urgently as possible, this is normally a forward pass as that is normally closer to the goal. Whilst this whole paragraph is a little hard to follow there's bits concerning passing, bits concerning tempo but that is because mentality really is a 'global' slider, it effects everything (including positioning, which I haven't mentioned).

In the context of my post above: Lower mentality structures, such as Counter or Defensive, mean that you've instructed your players to be conservative with the ball. If you've otherwise set up to maintain possession then this just means that your guys are under no pressure to immediately score so they can play safe (possibly boring) passes and that is fine with your tactical setup. This generally means you'll patiently keep the ball and only play the 'killer passes' when there is a high chance of them succeeding (which is one goal of classic possession footy).

I think were on the same page, i meant the player mentality slider as you say if you move it left it go's to defensive to ultra defensive if put on first notch or if you move it right it go's to attacking. It's this were i seem to struggle as there's some players i just leave on what ever default come's with there role but there's some i like to tweak (as in there mentality) Like my 2 defenders start with just below normal to the left hand side of the mentality slider which i thought they would start on defensive

[llama3]

i used kagawa as a left-sided inside forward on an old save - scored 14 goals in 16 games - outstanding in the role

[to_madeira]

First of all, amazing thread

Second, sorry for possible mistakes in my posts, because I'm Portuguese.

Now, i will present my unsymmetrical 4-3-3.

Attacking mentality, high pressing, medium-high defensive line, short pass, narrow and slow. Passing through the middle, loose zonal marking (explanation later in the post).

GK instructions are pretty standard with distribution set to 'Defender collect' to RB and HUB ticked to avoid long useless kicks.

Center-backs hasn't any instruction out of ordinary. RB provides width ('Hug Touchline'), crosses often, RFD, RWB and TTB mixed. LWB is more attacking (mentality), also 'Hug Touchline' with RFD and Cross often and mixed TTB and RWB.

DM is on the side of attacking CM to cover and has RFD mixed and medium mentality to play side-by-side with the more defensive midfielder. This is very important because both them and CB make a box which is pretty effective to stop opposition's counters. Also is useful to recycle possession when the 4 attacking players or full-backs hasn't space to progress.

The job of CMl is sit-back, offer a easy line of passe. Also has some CF and is authorized to TTB often.

For the 4 attacking players the most important 'instruction' is freedom of movement. This is given by 'Roam', 'Moves into Channels' (except RW who cuts inside) and lots of CF. So I trust in their intelligence to move for the right places and as result we are playing some beautiful short-pass football.

The CF has high mentality because I want them in the shoulders of defenders (not only CB since he moves into channels) to open space for AM or CMr. The RW is a Inside Forward so they scored a lot.

Despite high mentality on CF, he also can drop deep and assist someone's (mainly RW, CM or AM) penetration. Here an example of that (in this match I used a mirror formation because my winger is right footed). Even with 11 pass, 12 creativity my striker was able to make a wonderful pass for my cutting inside winger.

One of most interesting and effective movement is this:

In this image we see the main points of the tactic:

• Defensive Box
  
• Supporting Full-Backs
  
• Roaming Upfront
  
• Triangles
  

For me, the first thing to do if you want a possession based tactic is form triangles in opponents midfield. Without this, is very difficult keep possession under pressure. In image is possible see that whatever player has the ball, he can pass for (at least) 2 players (triangle): DM - CM - RB; CM - AM - LB; DM - CM - AM; AM - RW - CF; AM - RW - CM; ...

Here's an example in-game of another movement that is common:

[to_madeira]

This is why I don't use man-marking.

(1) Our defense is well positioned and everyone is marked.

(2) Due to man-marking, both CB go forward.

(3) This opens a hole, where opposition AM runs and scores easily.

With zonal marking, my defenders wait for opposition attackers and there's no space to penetrate.

So, why many of you choose man-marking?

[yonko]

Okay, thank you. It's probably time to make my own training schedules.

Individual training schedules are the way to go IMO.

I went for Balanced/Control.

I want my team to do a fast-paced passing, and suddenly 'bam!', my DLF slot in a through pass to a wide striker. How do I encourage my team to pass around instead of pumping the ball and losing it?

I used to use Balanced/Control too, until I tried Fluid Philosophy. I've been more than happy with the switch.

You want your team to pass the ball around? Quickly? I would try Counter Strategy + Fluid Philosophy with Shouts to "pass to feet" and "get the ball forward"

I am sorry if this goes off-topic, if so, please tell me I'd maybe create a new thread.

Philosophy: Balanced

Strategy: Control

Passing Style: Shorter

CF: More Expressive

CD: Press More

Tackling: Default

Marking: Zonal Marking

Crossing: Drill

Roaming: Default

Everything else is left default or untouched. As for individuals instructions, I only restrict them from Long Shots.

How do i increase the movement? I assume a lot creative freedom?

If you want more movement, then give your players more roaming also.

I am trying to integrate a double pivot system. I'd put Kagawa as well as Scholes on MC with the role of Adv.PM - Support. I gave them plenty of creative freedom to do what they want. But in the game, both seem to be on the same line instead of one covering behind. Do I have to do something else?

What PPMs do Scholes and Kagawa have? If you do not want both your MCs to be on the same line, you can do two things:

1) Have Scholes as DLP-support while Kagawa as Adv.P-support

2) Keep both of them on the same role, but give both of them roaming instructions (manually).

The second option would fall a lot on the players' attributes (off the ball, decisions, workrate, etc.) and their PPMs.

The only thing that I'd say about your team is that it is pretty slow and Kagawa is also pretty slow. This isn't necessarily a problem, certainly not for ball retention, but something to consider. Kagawa's only skill is dribbling at the opposition, something he looks superb at but, again, lacks pace so if you could get him doing this right up in the danger zone then that would be a good idea - it wouldn't matter if there were opponents because he looks so good at dribbling he could weave through tight spaces with ease! Pushing up (if your defence allows it, which I think it probably would) would probably help to combat a lack of pace, although, to be fair, it's just centrally you're particularly lacking pace so it's probably fine anyway.

With all due respect, I think Kagawa's acceleration, pace and agility are good enough for him to play successfully as Inside Forward-attack. Pedro at Barca has similar physical attributes and he always does very well for me.