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Rubbish AI transfers


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It seems to me that the AI will make loads of signings and never play them. Why is that? Liverpool spent £11m on Scott Sinclair, he played 12 games over 2 seasons and left for £2m. Arsenal signed Insua for £5m played 4 games left 2 seasons later for £1m.

Yes I know people make mistakes but it seems a regular occurance

Why does the AI do this , if I can explain or give more examples would be useful.

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I don't think it's totally wrong..... Robbie Keane..... from Spurs to Liverpool and then back to Spurs........ Both parties are guilty there.

Also, I made some, what I thought were great signings, in January only to play them 10 times and to then purchase someone else who was better in the position. Now two 10m players are on loan.

Never quite made it that bad before.......

LAM

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It seems to me that the AI will make loads of signings and never play them. Why is that? Liverpool spent £11m on Scott Sinclair, he played 12 games over 2 seasons and left for £2m. Arsenal signed Insua for £5m played 4 games left 2 seasons later for £1m.

Yes I know people make mistakes but it seems a regular occurance

Why does the AI do this , if I can explain or give more examples would be useful.

Because the AI puts too much emphasis on a players CA and reputation when its scouting players, and not enough emphasis on the players actual attributes and how those attributes are distributed, or how that player will fit into an AI managers team. Thats why you'll often see them waste tons of money on players who, when arriving at their new club, are finally recognised by the AI as being no better than what that club already has, or the 'wrong type of player' for that AI managers style of play. Hence they'll let them rot in the reserves. If those things were checked before AI managers bid for players, this problem wouldn't be so bad.

This is why the human player will always eventually dominate the gameworld, no matter who we start with. Its just a matter of time. We may make that mistake once or twice, the AI does it constantly.

AI squad building has been atrocious for years, although in FM12 its supposed to have gotten slightly better than last years game.

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The AI team selection isn't sophisticated enough to figure out just which 11 of the 25 players in the first team would be good enough to win a specific match. AI rotation is more of a on/off thing, where they either field the best possible eleven or, when the match is unimportant enough, field reserves-only. Tired or half-injured players are selected even though a player in the same position with 1-2 less CA is at 95% while dropping value, quality and team harmony in the gutter.

The best managers in the game tend to be a bit better, but for the most part even those who have sheikhs throwing money at them fail to make a difference.

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I don't think it's totally wrong..... Robbie Keane..... from Spurs to Liverpool and then back to Spurs........ Both parties are guilty there.

Also, I made some, what I thought were great signings, in January only to play them 10 times and to then purchase someone else who was better in the position. Now two 10m players are on loan.

Never quite made it that bad before.......

LAM

Keane played 28 times for Liverpool, though, not 10 times. In addition, he made those appearances over 6 months, which is not as bad as 12 in 2 seasons/4 in 2 seasons. Liverpool identified a "problem" (although arguably they made one for themselves by playing him out of position) and got rid of Keane quickly to lower the losses.

However, it's not the same as Rafa thought he would be good in a 4-2-3-1 formation, as opposed to FM's AI which doesn't apply the same squad judgement logic for transfers.

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Keane played 28 times for Liverpool, though, not 10 times. In addition, he made those appearances over 6 months, which is not as bad as 12 in 2 seasons/4 in 2 seasons. Liverpool identified a "problem" (although arguably they made one for themselves by playing him out of position) and got rid of Keane quickly to lower the losses.

He never said Keane played 10 times for Liverpool, he was saying how HE has purchased players who play 10 times.

I find the AI frustrating with team building but it has been better than previous years IMO. Most of us are guilty of paying decent cash for players for them to not fit in or play much etc but it happens too often in game.

Having said that enjoying this years game more than ever so it not all bad.

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ok we can say (jokingly) that Liverpool "make it into ++++" ...

but we know that it's not true ...

Aquilani is ++++, Liverpool was just crazy in spending 25millions euro.

I'm a fan of Juventus, and the right price of Alberto is 6/7 millions. Thanks to Milan, Pirlo is a GOD.

So, just to come back to the title of the post, I can confirm that AI transfers are rubbish.

Like many (random) things, for a long time now; It's long time that i'm unable to be "positive" about FM ...

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ok we can say (jokingly) that Liverpool "make it into ++++" ...

but we know that it's not true ...

Aquilani is ++++, Liverpool was just crazy in spending 25millions euro.

I'm a fan of Juventus, and the right price of Alberto is 6/7 millions. Thanks to Milan, Pirlo is a GOD.

So, just to come back to the title of the post, I can confirm that AI transfers are rubbish.

Like many (random) things, for a long time now; It's long time that i'm unable to be "positive" about FM ...

What about the £100m they used on star players from other PL clubs this season? Has Suarez' career improved or deteriorated after he joined Liverpool? Can you mention any signing the last 10 years that involved someone whose career didn't crash when/after joining Liverpool? I honestly can't remember any, but maybe memory fails me?

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Aquilani is ++++, Liverpool was just crazy in spending 25millions euro.

I'm a fan of Juventus, and the right price of Alberto is 6/7 millions. Thanks to Milan, Pirlo is a GOD.

Alberto is a good player, just very injury prone, he was also played out of position at liverpool and that liverpool paniced and payed over the odds to get him did not really help them ether

--------------------

but anyway, lets get back on topic, discussion about real life football should go in the football forum

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I sold a young player with supposedly a lot of promise to Real Madrid (from napoli) for about $17 million. A year later I was wondering how he was doing so I checked Madrid's squad he wasn't there. Doing a search I saw they let him go, for free, it seems, to another lower Spanish club.

[edit] I take that back. That might be one of the oddities of the 25-player maximum in La Liga. Not sure.

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ok we can say (jokingly) that Liverpool "make it into ++++" ...

but we know that it's not true ...

Aquilani is ++++, Liverpool was just crazy in spending 25millions euro.

I'm a fan of Juventus, and the right price of Alberto is 6/7 millions. Thanks to Milan, Pirlo is a GOD.

So, just to come back to the title of the post, I can confirm that AI transfers are rubbish.

Like many (random) things, for a long time now; It's long time that i'm unable to be "positive" about FM ...

AI transfers may be poor sometimes but the point is that it does reflect real life, since real life managers make poor transfers all the time, such as Aquilani to Liverpool.

We have the benefit of scout reports and seeing players attributes to help us determine whether a transfer will be successful, which is why it's easier for a human manager in FM than real life.

I still make mistakes though; bought a player on FM11 who was runner-up as World player of the year for £20m, he couldn't perform for me and I dropped him after about 20 games before selling him on for just £10m a year later.

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It just seems to me that the AI will make far too many "mistakes" in the market. Yes we all make mistakes but with the AI it seems many dont play because they dont fit into the managers system even though they were bought for a large amount of money and by the same guy.

A question for people who know, how much coding would it take to increase their "awareness", would it be unfeasible for the amount of time/testing for the reward or would it hurt other systems?

Cheers for any answers!

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A question for people who know, how much coding would it take to increase their "awareness", would it be unfeasible for the amount of time/testing for the reward or would it hurt other systems?

Cheers for any answers!

At the risk of sounding harsh (as usual...) I fear nobody at SI has a clear idea, considering the snail-pace rate of improvement in the transfer/scouting dept... It's probably going to take a brand new code/system though

They just can't do much more with the current CA/PA/Reputation triangle of death.

It could be possible, I suppose, transferring a bit of the Reputation system on the Average Rating/Goals/Apps stats, but in turns those are influenced by a less than perfect match engine and by a questionable ratings system... So an Enforcing Midfielder a la Gattuso would end up being less valuable than a random flashy AMC just because the ME+rating system favours goals way too much.

Still, it'd be a better solution than sitting and watching Top Clubs bringing in expensive and awful youngsters with zero chance of ever making it, just beucase PA is >150 and Rep is ok.

About testing, we've been gamma-testers for ages already, we'd gladly take that bullet too in FM13 if it'd mean having a truly challenging AI in FM14 ;)

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I am in 2034 and although my squad and 'feeder' club are the dominant 2 clubs in Europe I don't think the opposition has poor squads. They just tend to hold on to their highly accomplished veterans two seasons longer than I would. But I mean, I can see why it happens. It has happened at Inter the last couple years. You believe your players will age gracefully, and that they won't receive a transfer fee, so will be expensive to replace. So you keep them, and then, the next year the transfer fee you will get for them is even less, and they are still expensive to replace, so you stick with them for another year! Next thing you know you are on your 4th coach in 2 years, and losing to the likes of Novara.

I have had my share of flop transfer signings, but they are quickly forgotten about, because every player has about a two-year window (almost every one is brought in as a youngster) in which they must prove themself to me, and if they haven't impressed then I will look to increase their value a bit before selling them. In this way most flops are even making me money. And no one makes it to a point where I count on them, but don't have faith in them (or atleast faith in their potential).

I just had one team sign my promising young RM on loan, then what do they do, they sign my aging RM whose contract I let expire! Bastards! Thats not the deal we made! I can guess which one will get the playing time, and I can guess a certain loan spell will be ending early.

So I don't think the overall AI for transfers needs to be improved, but maybe there could be a handful of managers who are really good at it, maybe 25% of them.

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At the risk of sounding harsh (as usual...) I fear nobody at SI has a clear idea, considering the snail-pace rate of improvement in the transfer/scouting dept... It's probably going to take a brand new code/system though

They just can't do much more with the current CA/PA/Reputation triangle of death.

It could be possible, I suppose, transferring a bit of the Reputation system on the Average Rating/Goals/Apps stats, but in turns those are influenced by a less than perfect match engine and by a questionable ratings system... So an Enforcing Midfielder a la Gattuso would end up being less valuable than a random flashy AMC just because the ME+rating system favours goals way too much.

Still, it'd be a better solution than sitting and watching Top Clubs bringing in expensive and awful youngsters with zero chance of ever making it, just beucase PA is >150 and Rep is ok.

About testing, we've been gamma-testers for ages already, we'd gladly take that bullet too in FM13 if it'd mean having a truly challenging AI in FM14 ;)

Cheers for the response , interesting over the "triangle of death" and the coding issue, Cheers!

I am in 2034 and although my squad and 'feeder' club are the dominant 2 clubs in Europe I don't think the opposition has poor squads. They just tend to hold on to their highly accomplished veterans two seasons longer than I would. But I mean, I can see why it happens. It has happened at Inter the last couple years. You believe your players will age gracefully, and that they won't receive a transfer fee, so will be expensive to replace. So you keep them, and then, the next year the transfer fee you will get for them is even less, and they are still expensive to replace, so you stick with them for another year! Next thing you know you are on your 4th coach in 2 years, and losing to the likes of Novara.

I have had my share of flop transfer signings, but they are quickly forgotten about, because every player has about a two-year window (almost every one is brought in as a youngster) in which they must prove themself to me, and if they haven't impressed then I will look to increase their value a bit before selling them. In this way most flops are even making me money. And no one makes it to a point where I count on them, but don't have faith in them (or atleast faith in their potential).

I just had one team sign my promising young RM on loan, then what do they do, they sign my aging RM whose contract I let expire! Bastards! Thats not the deal we made! I can guess which one will get the playing time, and I can guess a certain loan spell will be ending early.

So I don't think the overall AI for transfers needs to be improved, but maybe there could be a handful of managers who are really good at it, maybe 25% of them.

Its not that teams challenging you, its the amount of big money flops they buy and dont play , they still sign great players i.e Hamsik to city, but the point I was making was the amount of big money in their prime signings made who dont play is just too many and almost "breaks" it for me, however I'am still hooked :p

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AI transfers may be poor sometimes but the point is that it does reflect real life, since real life managers make poor transfers all the time, such as Aquilani to Liverpool.

We have the benefit of scout reports and seeing players attributes to help us determine whether a transfer will be successful, which is why it's easier for a human manager in FM than real life.

I still make mistakes though; bought a player on FM11 who was runner-up as World player of the year for £20m, he couldn't perform for me and I dropped him after about 20 games before selling him on for just £10m a year later.

Yes, but how often do you see a player purchased in real life for a large amount, who barely makes ANY appearences? I once saw Ilicic bought in FM by Spurs for around 15 million. He didn't play a single game until one League Cup match where he scored a hat trick..

1 - you'd think that if they are paying big money for a player, they'd play him. If they played him, he played poorly and he was dropped it'd be different. Wasn't like that at all.

2 - Players can play well in FM and managers will not select them if their CA isn't high. I remember seeing Jelen(again at Spurs) who had more goals than games in the league, but only played around 4 games..

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They just can't do much more with the current CA/PA/Reputation triangle of death

Very good and I couldn't agree more. I hate the idea of visible PA, even with the inaccurate star system. High PA and good reputation means more than performance and personality to the AI it seems and they will sign a player even if it is clear his best position will not suit the managers favoured formations or that his personality or low CA means he will never fulfill his potential.

A player should have a CA only in my opinion and both human and AI managers should be using their own judgements from age, CA, average rating(even if it is just youth level), personality and relevant attributes. Of course there would still need to be a value for PA but could be hidden from both user and AI.

The dream is that the AI can build a team that makes sense for the current managers style and can sign players who may actually have a role to play more often than not. If it was harder for us, the users, to find the next generations of stars that would help long term games also IMO.

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Yes, but how often do you see a player purchased in real life for a large amount, who barely makes ANY appearences? I once saw Ilicic bought in FM by Spurs for around 15 million. He didn't play a single game until one League Cup match where he scored a hat trick..

1 - you'd think that if they are paying big money for a player, they'd play him. If they played him, he played poorly and he was dropped it'd be different. Wasn't like that at all.

2 - Players can play well in FM and managers will not select them if their CA isn't high. I remember seeing Jelen(again at Spurs) who had more goals than games in the league, but only played around 4 games..

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Spurs do the same thing with David Bentley?

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Spurs do the same thing with David Bentley?
Bentley has made 62 appearances in 5 (3 when not on loan) seasons for Spurs. He isn't really comparable to a player who has barely played at all.
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Yes, but how often do you see a player purchased in real life for a large amount, who barely makes ANY appearences? I once saw Ilicic bought in FM by Spurs for around 15 million. He didn't play a single game until one League Cup match where he scored a hat trick..

1 - you'd think that if they are paying big money for a player, they'd play him. If they played him, he played poorly and he was dropped it'd be different. Wasn't like that at all.

2 - Players can play well in FM and managers will not select them if their CA isn't high. I remember seeing Jelen(again at Spurs) who had more goals than games in the league, but only played around 4 games..

I see it about as often IRL as I do in-game, which is not very often.

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At the risk of sounding harsh (as usual...) I fear nobody at SI has a clear idea, considering the snail-pace rate of improvement in the transfer/scouting dept... It's probably going to take a brand new code/system though

They just can't do much more with the current CA/PA/Reputation triangle of death.

It could be possible, I suppose, transferring a bit of the Reputation system on the Average Rating/Goals/Apps stats, but in turns those are influenced by a less than perfect match engine and by a questionable ratings system... So an Enforcing Midfielder a la Gattuso would end up being less valuable than a random flashy AMC just because the ME+rating system favours goals way too much.

Still, it'd be a better solution than sitting and watching Top Clubs bringing in expensive and awful youngsters with zero chance of ever making it, just beucase PA is >150 and Rep is ok.

About testing, we've been gamma-testers for ages already, we'd gladly take that bullet too in FM13 if it'd mean having a truly challenging AI in FM14 ;)

Why do you still bother to play this game? Why not just count your losses and walk away?

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liverpool seem to have a thing for egyptian players in the first transfer window. first save, they signed one player who turned out to be no more than a 2star player, next save game they sign a completely different egyptian (because the first one was bought by someone else) and he too was rubbish.

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The fact is, a flashy midfielder would most likely cost more than a Gattuso-type. And teams do rate players based on potential and reputation, and managers will play players who they believe to be more able.

If you make it too difficult to scout talents, or make the AI too good at squad building (meaning all 20 teams in the division are good at squad-building) then what? Yes, the game may be more enjoyable for a select few, but is everyone going to enjoy it more? I don't think I would. I employ the best scouts, am constantly on the look out, am very in-depth and picky, and it is hard enough to find the top players when they are still 19-21 IMO. The top opposition squads are all strong, one year I finished with something like 120+ goals and 97 points and finished 2nd to Inter, who managed 99 that year!

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The fact is, a flashy midfielder would most likely cost more than a Gattuso-type. And teams do rate players based on potential and reputation, and managers will play players who they believe to be more able.

If you make it too difficult to scout talents, or make the AI too good at squad building (meaning all 20 teams in the division are good at squad-building) then what? Yes, the game may be more enjoyable for a select few, but is everyone going to enjoy it more? I don't think I would. I employ the best scouts, am constantly on the look out, am very in-depth and picky, and it is hard enough to find the top players when they are still 19-21 IMO. The top opposition squads are all strong, one year I finished with something like 120+ goals and 97 points and finished 2nd to Inter, who managed 99 that year!

Its not the squad building, the AI does unearth some gems and buys good player most of the time

However to often they will spend money on players who wont play at all and sell at a massively reduced price 2 years later , yes I can understand if its youth but it seems to be big money signings who then sit on the sidelines.....

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Spurs do the same thing with David Bentley?
Bentley has made 62 appearances in 5 (3 when not on loan) seasons for Spurs. He isn't really comparable to a player who has barely played at all.

What he said ^ Bentley got his chances, was not nearly as impressive as he was for Blackburn, and lost his spot.

I can actually cite a real life counter example to this, Pavlyuchenko completely lost his spot at one point for Spurs and was a fringe player. He scored a few important goals in the cups and got another lease of life at Spurs.. this never happens in FM with AI managers.

I see it about as often IRL as I do in-game, which is not very often.

Then you're either biased or your game is significantly different than mine, as I can show you numerous examples of this.. and it happens more and more as I get further into the future.

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If you make it too difficult to scout talents, or make the AI too good at squad building (meaning all 20 teams in the division are good at squad-building) then what? Yes, the game may be more enjoyable for a select few, but is everyone going to enjoy it more? I don't think I would. I employ the best scouts, am constantly on the look out, am very in-depth and picky, and it is hard enough to find the top players when they are still 19-21 IMO. The top opposition squads are all strong, one year I finished with something like 120+ goals and 97 points and finished 2nd to Inter, who managed 99 that year!

Have had simlar experiences of tops teams doing this but for me it is the also rans that need more improvement. The top sides have money and rep and sign some top players and have competitive squads but after about five years in every save I have there are about six teams with massive amounts of points and then the rest are miles behind. One season I had 11th place finishing with 36 points which most seasons IRL would get you relegated. I would like to see the premier league become as competitive as it really is IRL.

The thing is the top clubs would still have the most money, rep and the best AI managers in theory so would still be able to build squads better than the lower. I would just like to see the gap bridged somewhat.

That being said it can still be a challenge and is not that bad but you should always strive for improvement.

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Why do you still bother to play this game? Why not just count your losses and walk away?

Because I still like it, despite all its flaws... (and also because there's no viable alternative to it)

I don't get why every time there some criticism to be made, constructive criticism I may add, it's met with such hostility in a "love it or leave it" attitude that is, frankly, annoying.

If I'm still here it's because I LIKE FM and I CARE about it and I'm trying to offer something in order to help its improvement.

More often than not I'm critical, I know, but I don't really see the point in posting just to say how awesome the game is.

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Because I still like it, despite all its flaws... (and also because there's no viable alternative to it)

I don't get why every time there some criticism to be made, constructive criticism I may add, it's met with such hostility in a "love it or leave it" attitude that is, frankly, annoying.

If I'm still here it's because I LIKE FM and I CARE about it and I'm trying to offer something in order to help its improvement.

More often than not I'm critical, I know, but I don't really see the point in posting just to say how awesome the game is.

Its not every time someone has an problem, it just seems you spend your entire time on here speaking about how terrible FM is, or how terrible SI are at doing anything, i just dont see the point in frequenting a forum just to bad mouth a game and its makers constantly. But fair enough.

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Its not every time someone has an problem, it just seems you spend your entire time on here speaking about how terrible FM is, or how terrible SI are at doing anything, i just dont see the point in frequenting a forum just to bad mouth a game and its makers constantly. But fair enough.
Critique improves the game. The game doesn't improve if you don't criticise it.
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Its not every time someone has an problem, it just seems you spend your entire time on here speaking about how terrible FM is, or how terrible SI are at doing anything, i just dont see the point in frequenting a forum just to bad mouth a game and its makers constantly. But fair enough.

Yeah this argument Fanboyism vs Badmouthing is really interesting.

Just take a look at the game as a whole and ask yourself (both of you) what FM is all about. When I do that, the answer I arrive at is "mastering football management in a fictious universe where the challenge is to win over the computerized opposition". Consequently, for me the core of the game is the AI; both the club management and in the matches themselves. It is a fact that there have been very few improvements to the AI the last two-three versions of the game, and as a customer and a long-time admirer of the game I feel it is my duty to point out these shortcomings at every crossroads, until I get my way and the AI takes not only one but several steps forward in terms of its ability to use the features in the game properly.

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Critique improves the game. The game doesn't improve if you don't criticise it.

Honestly, no matter how many times you quote me im not getting into this with you, if you really want to talk to me pm me, otherwise im putting your posts on block, i have no interest in being trolled by you on a constant basis on here.

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Honestly, no matter how many times you quote me im not getting into this with you, if you really want to talk to me pm me, otherwise im putting your posts on block, i have no interest in being trolled by you on a constant basis on here.
It's not trolling. If you don't want your posts to be replied to, then you should send a PM (to RBKalle).

Forums are not lots of one-way conversations with the OP. In fact, you absolutely know this, as you did exactly the same thing to RBKalle as I did to you (quoting someone who wasn't speaking to you).

Realise that it is in your interests for the game to be criticised, and stop bawwwwwing when someone does so.

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I think its good to raise these issues for discussion, everyone will have an opinion which may or may not agree. If we want improvement then its reasonable to critique the existing on order that the future may change.

We do see how the game can be challenging around morale etc but I would personally rather see a greater challenge around the AI management e.g. a canny manager wheeling and dealing, AI making more astute signings in respect of their overall team and valueing investment of money spent, having greater awareness of how the player CA has been spent and development of PA, an AI manager who can assess my team and play a specific formation, target their match tactics to beat mine.

Thats the sort of FM challenge I'd prefer....it would then seem more a head to of management and tactic skills with the nirmal luck element. This challenge to me seems better than the fight with morale and selecting the appropiate or best of the wrst team talk response to make

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Constructive criticism got the easiness bug looked at sooner, rather than later. Its essential for a game like this since it strives to be the most realistic football sim available and thankfully has SI as its developers, who actually listen despite what some of us may believe (me included in my various rants from time to time :o). Anyway if no one criticised, or if that criticism was always ignored, we'd end up with a football sim no better than Fifa Manager and with a bunch of non-listening developers like Bright Future producing it! *shudder* :eek:

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I think constructive criticism is vital for games because what the devs might think as great may not work in reality , however lets not underestimate what games have done well and we should praise them for that as well , not just criticise i.e. SI have built arguably the best Football game ever

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I have noticed this to some degree, but I think it's a lot better than previous FMs. In my current game, Man Utd signing Cavani, Inler, Fellaini; Chelsea signed Krasic, Dzudzsak, Siem De Jong. Seems to me it's more the otherway, past stars getting usurped by new signings. Atm, in 2014, Van Persie, Lennon, K-P Boateng and Khedira all transfer listed due to teams signing better players.

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The issue has more to do with squad rotation then them buying players (although i have seen some dumb buys but it happens IRL- look @ city the early years and torres for chelsea etc) I buy a lot of talented youngsters (2-2.5 stars with 4+star potentials) who sit on the fringe of top teams that IRL would never be allowed to leave for under 10mil. In my latest transfer window, Man U sold Vidic (who was 32 and still a quality cb) to real for 9.5 mil- selling the team captain and their best defender just didn't make sense- and then compounded it by selling rafael- leaving them 2 defenders short. It has more to do with squad rotation and management than it does with players being bought and not played (read on this forum about rooney not getting a start at man U)

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