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LAUREN's Arsenal Thread 2011/2012 - 125 Years of Greatness *sponsored by being BRILLIANT*

goon

By goon,
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djvandyke

djvandyke

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Well that was one of the most ridiculous substitutions I have ever seen. We were on top, pressing for a winner and everything positive we were doing came through Chamberlain.

Wenger does not have a clue what he is doing any more, the fans who attend matches know it and the players know it. That look on their faces tells you everything you need to know.

We have a Brian Clough situation on our hands and the kindest thing anyone could do now is relive him of his duties before he damages the club and himself any further.

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Sy13

Sy13

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Whatever your views you're a prat for disrespecting him like that after all he has done for the club.

Ffs what a load of crap.

What has he done in 6 years? Why do you think more people now than ever are rebelling against AFc and AW?

In fact, don't bother, I can't be ar*ed going into it for the umpteenth time. As long as AW is in charge, AFC are proper ******.

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SJ234

SJ234

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Ffs what a load of crap.

What has he done in 6 years? Why do you think more people now than ever are rebelling against AFc and AW?

In fact, don't bother, I can't be ar*ed going into it for the umpteenth time. As long as AW is in charge, AFC are proper ******.

How are we going to get better? We fire him tomorrow what do we achieve? We're in the January transfer window and some sign some mediocre players for too much and oh look we are Liverpool. Get behind the team and criticise rationally.

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djvandyke

djvandyke

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Whatever your views you're a prat for disrespecting him like that after all he has done for the club.

A few harsh words are nothing compared to the damage his is doing to his own reputation. I want him to go now so that we can still look back and remember the genius who revolutionised our club and the way football was played on these shores.

Yet all I see before me is a dithering old man who is no longer in complete control of his mental faculties being destroyed by the pressure of a situation he can cannot control. He is no longer the great man I remember and love.

The ultimate cruelty is to allow this farce to continue. Its unfair to him and its unfair to the supporters. The phrase to be cruel to be kind has never been more appropriate.

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djvandyke

djvandyke

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There are many things Wenger can't justify like tearing apart the Invincibles prematurely and replacing them overpaid under achieving disloyal kids.

Playing the same formations and tactics week in, week out regardless of suitability to the situation.

Allowing the likes of Ashavin, Djourou, Chamakh to to wear the shirt time and again.

Openly promoting failure with ridiculous suggestions that 4th place is better than winning a trophy then wondering why his players lack a winning attitude.

Failing to resolve the same simple defensive deficiencies that have held us back for nearly a decade.

Having built a completely unbalanced squad without adequate cover is certain positions yet having a about half a dozen unwanted players and on massive contracts so **** and overpaid that no other club will take off our hands.

He is just a bad manager and the majority our our problems are down to his chronic mismanagement of the club.

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Sy13

Sy13

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There are many things Wenger can't justify like tearing apart the Invincibles prematurely and replacing them overpaid under achieving disloyal kids.

Playing the same formations and tactics week in, week out regardless of suitability to the situation.

Allowing the likes of Ashavin, Djourou, Chamakh to to wear the shirt time and again.

Openly promoting failure with ridiculous suggestions that 4th place is better than winning a trophy then wondering why his players lack a winning attitude.

Failing to resolve the same simple defensive deficiencies that have held us back for nearly a decade.

Having built a completely unbalanced squad without adequate cover is certain positions yet having a about half a dozen unwanted players and on massive contracts so **** and overpaid that no other club will take off our hands.

He is just a bad manager and the majority our our problems are down to his chronic mismanagement of the club.

+1000000000 to all of this. The man is undoing the reputation he built up between 98 and 05. George Graham had similar success in half the tenure, if this was happening at Chelsea, United, even Liverpool then the manager would be long gone. What on earth has AW done to earn allowing nearly 7 years of failure at our beloved club? Even Liverpool got rid of a Champions League winning manager when things went sideways so why are we hanging on to a man that can't even win that??

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djvandyke

djvandyke

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It's not a choice between the two. Success breads success and time and again teams gain momentum by winning trophies.

Wenger uses a 4th place league finish to defend our dismal record of failure and under achievement rather than emphasising the importance of winning.

Its a losers attitude and spreads to the players.

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bergkamp

bergkamp

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The decision to take off Chamberlain was a strange one. I don't know how his fitness was, but it looked decent to me. Its not exaggerating to say that he was one of the few players who really could make something happen and was playing very well. Not just because he's quick and can take on the fall back, but he's a smart player and can actually control the ball too. Really did seem to change the game to me. Ramsay would have been a contender to replace as well.

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pouncer

pouncer

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I can kind of understand why Wenger took off Chamberlain and replaced him with Arshavin. We were playing well, momentum was good and it was a clear opportunity for Arshavin to slot seamlessly into this situation and boost his confidence. Doesn't mean it was the right decision though: clearly it wasn't.

Disappointed with the result today anyway: it was a game that we lost not through playing badly (a la Swansea for example). It's almost more frustrating to come out of a game like this empty handed, because the core of the team played well today but didn't take the chances we really needed to.

I'm not sure what's happened to Theo, it's bizarre. I can't help wondering if his dip in form over the last month or so is related to this contract situation we keep hearing murmurs of. If he could return to the form he was on pre-December then it would be a massive boost.

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Razzler

Razzler

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I was thinking Wenger would go down the line of 'he a young guy, he is tired, I thought I should remove him' (read in Wenger accent) but when you're hot, you're hot. I'd have left him on even when everyone else came off the pitch and went home he was doing that well.

Nice confident performance from a young player is just what everyone wanted, especially against a top side and then to replace him with what has become the poster boy for not trying/not being all that good after all I'd imagine has fueled fan's anger. The fact Arshavin was involved in the United winner is just one of those 'couldn't be worse' moments really :D

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pouncer

pouncer

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Yeah, there's no justifying taking him off IMO either. But I can imagine Wenger's line of thinking: and if it did work and Arshavin netted a second goal then we'd be applauding the change, it's a funny old game. But instead it rather more predictably went arse over tit :D

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ddidiodion

ddidiodion

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(Man Utd supporter, feel free to tell me to f**k off etc.) I dont watch enough of Arsenal to know exactly how **** Arshavin has been (although every time I have seen him he's been crap), but putting the blame on him for the Man Utd goal is a bit unfair. Vermaelen left him 1v1 with Valencia who will do that to good fullbacks (well Ashley Cole) all day, it wasn't the most aesthetically pleasing attempt granted, but once you lose your balance it's hard to recover and you can look a bit silly. In fairness to Arshavin he did try to get back at Valencia rather then just standing there and looked genuinely gutted when we scored.

Just offering an outsiders view on the goal. I do think it was wrong to take off Ox and it probably cost you the game but blaming Arshavin for the second goal is harsh and probably detracts from the issue. If you leave a winger isolated against another winger 9 times out of 10 he's going to get left for dead, at least Arshavin was trying to track back I suppose :D

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bergkamp

bergkamp

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Look, none of us on here are better football managers than Wenger and no one can question his ability and knowledge of blooding young players, I accept that. But when he took off Chamberlain, we were in the ascendancy. It was just one of those moments when you could just feel the shift and notice that we could get the second goal. Suddenly the whole feel changed and we did nothing after that really. Ironic really considering he was bold enough to replace Djourou at half time (whether he had a knock or not) and his replacement did pretty well.

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Sy13

Sy13

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AW clearly said it would be silly to drop points by not bringing in full backs (even on loan) to cover for the missing players. Wtf was he waiting for, the Summer?

He has to go, has to. I'd even get rid of him now - we won't finish top 4 anyway so where is the danger in throwing money at Klopp for example?

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Stuart Warren

Stuart Warren

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But when he took off Chamberlain, we were in the ascendancy. It was just one of those moments when you could just feel the shift and notice that we could get the second goal. Suddenly the whole feel changed and we did nothing after that really.

it was a self-fulfilling prophecy from the fans' reaction

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Candre168

Candre168

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(Man Utd supporter, feel free to tell me to f**k off etc.) I dont watch enough of Arsenal to know exactly how **** Arshavin has been (although every time I have seen him he's been crap), but putting the blame on him for the Man Utd goal is a bit unfair.

It doesn't really matter mate. Since the invincible season we've seen Wenger be beyond stubborn with his decisions. He's not blunt enough, he's not objective enough, and he's not open minded enough. Time and time again we've seen him stick with crap players instead of shaking things up or bringing in new players.

Look at us, our two backup RB's are 18 year olds with a handful of games for experience. We don't have a proper LB, both of our LB's are wingers who can't defend to save their lives, one of them being injured ALL the time. One of our CB's is as slow as a corpse and ruins how we play because we can't play with a high defensive line anymore. We play with 3 central midfielders (one being a DM) and yet we have no where near enough cover for the injuries that one is bound to experience throughout a season.

What kind of club are we?

His Ox for Arseshaving substitute just symbolises what he's all about. Even if Ox was not 100%, you can't bring on a player as disinterested as Arshavin. You just can't. Yossi would have made more sense. He could have brought on any player on that bench excluding Almunia and it would have made more sense than Arshavin. Yet he's stubborn and soft. SAF would never let a player be so lazy, he'd sell them or kick them in the face, one way or another, he would never let his club sink so low to field a player like that.

Wenger has LET Tottenham get better than us. He's LET the club fall because he's too stubborn to realise his mistakes.

And Wenger loyalists, don't give me this 'We're paying for the stadium' crap. We've been in the CL for years and years in a row, we've sold players for hefty amounts too, if Tottenham can afford to build a good team then we can too. Hell at this rate, after bringing in Papiss Cissé a lethal scorer in the Bundesliga, I'm not even sure if we're going to finish above Newcastle.

Poor management from the top down.

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Retro

Retro

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I don't really care what some have to say... but I do think AW may resign in the summer.

Of course, should that happen, the moaners will moan about who we get in to replace him, or moan when the replacement can't get us into the CL positions in his first season. Joke supporters.

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pouncer

pouncer

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ffs I am fed up of **** like this from idiots like Candre and Sy13. Can we not just have two Arsenal threads, one for those who do no spout reactionary nonsense and one for those who want WENGER OUT etc?

It doesn't really matter mate. Since the invincible season we've seen Wenger be beyond stubborn with his decisions. He's not blunt enough, he's not objective enough, and he's not open minded enough. Time and time again we've seen him stick with crap players instead of shaking things up or bringing in new players.

"Since the invincible season" - this line is worse than when Chelsea fans continue with the "José would have done it this way" rhetoric or England fans bang on about 1966 when we stumble to a draw away to Montenegro. You just can't compare anything in football today with the Invincibles season. Wenger's stubborn approach to managing the team was widely hailed as one of his greatest assets back then, his open-minded vision what was revolutionised the club from the stagnant, flat team we were in the early 1990s to a club which by the mid-2000s was widely regarded as one of the best in Europe and still today is bigger than it has ever been.

You could say that every manager frustrates his teams fans by sticking with crap players: ask United fans about Jonny Evans perhaps? Nobody minded the likes of Cygan and Jeffers nearly as much when we were doing well.

Look at us, our two backup RB's are 18 year olds with a handful of games for experience. We don't have a proper LB, both of our LB's are wingers who can't defend to save their lives, one of them being injured ALL the time. One of our CB's is as slow as a corpse and ruins how we play because we can't play with a high defensive line anymore. We play with 3 central midfielders (one being a DM) and yet we have no where near enough cover for the injuries that one is bound to experience throughout a season.

If we had three 28 year old international right-backs on our books we'd look a bit silly wouldn't we? I agree that Jenkinson, in the handful of games we've seen, is a little raw but he adapted well and looked able in most games bar the 8-2 obviously. We let go of Eboué because his performances were distinctly average and he didn't seem to be putting the work in any more. Didn't that please you? Or did you expect us to replace him with another average back-up RB? Because you can't just go and pick up a Sergio Ramos or a Micah Richards and not give him any games, which is what would have happened had Sagna not got injured?

Regarding the LBs, I was actually pleasantly surprised by what we'd seen from André Santos. While I'm not going to say it suits natural game, he appears solid at LB nonetheless and is a massive improvement on Clichy who could neither defend nor provide anything going forward.

Our CB who is 'as slow as a corpse' is also the much-needed height we were praying for last season. Again, Mertesacker is a big improvement who's influence is particularly noticeable during set-pieces.

What kind of club are we?

His Ox for Arseshaving substitute just symbolises what he's all about. Even if Ox was not 100%, you can't bring on a player as disinterested as Arshavin. You just can't. Yossi would have made more sense. He could have brought on any player on that bench excluding Almunia and it would have made more sense than Arshavin. Yet he's stubborn and soft. SAF would never let a player be so lazy, he'd sell them or kick them in the face, one way or another, he would never let his club sink so low to field a player like that.

I think this is the only part of your post I can empathise with. Obviously we don't know the details behind the substitution - whether or not he was cramping up is something only Wenger/Rice and the many physios and medical staff that were present will only know. As I said before, I think Wenger's line of thinking was that Arshavin would slot seamlessly into the game thanks to our momentum at the time: he wasn't asking Arshavin to come off the bench and change the fortunes of the game or anything like that.

I believe he saw AOC fatiguing and felt that while we were on top and playing well, he saw it was a perfect opportunity for Arshavin to impress with less pressure than he was under when we needed him to create/score against Swansea while we were behind. The 30-year old captain of the Russian National team should be able to fit into the team and continue the work an 18-year old with a handful of competitive games has left off. The fact he didn't is an an example of the dire form Andrey Arshavin is in tbh.

I'm not going to say that taking AOC off when we did was categorically WRONG as I don't know the circumstances behind it but personally like you Candre I found it disappointing that we put AA on yeah. But I can understand Wenger's possible line of thinking all the same.

Wenger has LET Tottenham get better than us. He's LET the club fall because he's too stubborn to realise his mistakes.

And Wenger loyalists, don't give me this 'We're paying for the stadium' crap. We've been in the CL for years and years in a row, we've sold players for hefty amounts too, if Tottenham can afford to build a good team then we can too. Hell at this rate, after bringing in Papiss Cissé a lethal scorer in the Bundesliga, I'm not even sure if we're going to finish above Newcastle.

Poor management from the top down.

Now **** off with all this rubbish: Tottenham are not better than us, not at all. They've had no more success than we have? They've qualified once for the Champions League and won nothing? Come back at the end of the season when Tottenham have silverware and CL football and then I might sympathise with you a little bit more. The only thing making Tottenham better than us is two league table positions. Enough of the inferiority complex please.

I am frustrated: frustrated at the lack of initiative shown by the management (I think we could have someone like Cissé quite easily and am baffled by why we haven't moved for a player of his price/ability), frustrated by recent results and performances and frustrated by a few of our squad members but more than anything frustrated by a handful of our fans who, with their over-expectations and criticism of one of the club's iconic representatives are embarrassing the more level-headed among us.

(took me about half an hour to bang that out, quite a bit of spare time at the moment!)

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x-man

x-man

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I think the only way the AOC substitution would've worked is if he had actually cramped up and the crowd, seeing something wrong, wouldn't have minded the sub then. Taking him off when there was nothing visibly wrong and with AOC looking the liveliest player on the pitch just made everyone assume it was a tactical sub and expect things to go wrong, which they unfortunately did. :(

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Retro

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It was a tactical error taking AOC off... Wenger has admitted it both after the match and in a press conference. He also said in the press conference that the fans were entitled to make their feelings known - although he did punctuate that comment with one that said that the fans aren't necessarily correct in their views (generally).

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Candre168

Candre168

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"Since the invincible season" - this line is worse than when Chelsea fans continue with the "José would have done it this way" rhetoric or England fans bang on about 1966 when we stumble to a draw away to Montenegro. You just can't compare anything in football today with the Invincibles season. Wenger's stubborn approach to managing the team was widely hailed as one of his greatest assets back then, his open-minded vision what was revolutionised the club from the stagnant, flat team we were in the early 1990s to a club which by the mid-2000s was widely regarded as one of the best in Europe and still today is bigger than it has ever been.

You could say that every manager frustrates his teams fans by sticking with crap players: ask United fans about Jonny Evans perhaps?

My main beef is that Arsenal fans continually bring this argument up. Yes, Wenger has been one of the most revolutionary managers in World Football, but that doesn't mean he's still fit to do the job. It is quite possible his ability to objectively judge the situation might have been hindered. You surely must realise that he's at least partly to blame for our decline in club stature (in the sense that we are no longer one of the World's Best).

Nobody minded the likes of Cygan and Jeffers nearly as much when we were doing well.

Because the crap players were surrounded by almost a full XI of great players, unlike now....

If we had three 28 year old international right-backs on our books we'd look a bit silly wouldn't we? I agree that Jenkinson, in the handful of games we've seen, is a little raw but he adapted well and looked able in most games bar the 8-2 obviously. We let go of Eboué because his performances were distinctly average and he didn't seem to be putting the work in any more. Didn't that please you? Or did you expect us to replace him with another average back-up RB? Because you can't just go and pick up a Sergio Ramos or a Micah Richards and not give him any games, which is what would have happened had Sagna not got injured?

Regarding the LBs, I was actually pleasantly surprised by what we'd seen from André Santos. While I'm not going to say it suits natural game, he appears solid at LB nonetheless and is a massive improvement on Clichy who could neither defend nor provide anything going forward.

Our CB who is 'as slow as a corpse' is also the much-needed height we were praying for last season. Again, Mertesacker is a big improvement who's influence is particularly noticeable during set-pieces.

Did I say anywhere in my post that we should have two World Class Right Backs? You're putting words in my mouth.

I mean, I seriously can't believe you're defending Mertesacker. You can't seriously think a defender that slow fits into a football team thats style of play forces it to have a high line? I'm sure even Wenger knows this and simply bought him out of panic at the last minute because we were just thrashed 8-2.

I think this is the only part of your post I can empathise with. Obviously we don't know the details behind the substitution - whether or not he was cramping up is something only Wenger/Rice and the many physios and medical staff that were present will only know. As I said before, I think Wenger's line of thinking was that Arshavin would slot seamlessly into the game thanks to our momentum at the time: he wasn't asking Arshavin to come off the bench and change the fortunes of the game or anything like that.

I believe he saw AOC fatiguing and felt that while we were on top and playing well, he saw it was a perfect opportunity for Arshavin to impress with less pressure than he was under when we needed him to create/score against Swansea while we were behind. The 30-year old captain of the Russian National team should be able to fit into the team and continue the work an 18-year old with a handful of competitive games has left off. The fact he didn't is an an example of the dire form Andrey Arshavin is in tbh.

If it ain't broke don't fix it? AOC was having a really good game and we had all the momentum our way. The substitution visibly deflated the team. You can't blame the deflation on the fans either because RVP was visibly upset by the substitution.

Now **** off with all this rubbish: Tottenham are not better than us, not at all. They've had no more success than we have? They've qualified once for the Champions League and won nothing? Come back at the end of the season when Tottenham have silverware and CL football and then I might sympathise with you a little bit more. The only thing making Tottenham better than us is two league table positions. Enough of the inferiority complex please.

Well, they won the League Cup in 2008 and last season they got further in the CL than us...And sure, we played Barcelona, but if we were good enough to win our group (like Tottenham did) we would have avoided them...

I don't know why my fellow Arsenal fans are so scared of opposite opinions and brand such opinions as 'idiotic'. The club is obviously in a mini-crisis right now whether you like it or not, and questioning Wenger's approach is more than just. And if you read my original post again, I never called for Wenger to be sacked...I criticised him heavily sure, but as paying fans surely we have the right to criticise the manager?

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Retro

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For what it's worth I wasn't including you in the joke supporters comment... well not yet anyway. ;)

Of course Wenger can be criticised... I think most of us have criticised him, especially recently. There are some however who just want him to be sacked and are looking for anything to justify that opinion and that's hardly constructive. Criticise the man? Sure... but to lash out at him and everything he does is a different thing entirely.

So it's not a case of fearing opposite opinions... it's how those opinions are put forward and what their apparent motivation is. Lashing out comes across as dim-witted - hence the contempt aimed in the direction of those that do it.

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Candre168

Candre168

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For what it's worth I wasn't including you in the joke supporters comment... well not yet anyway. ;)

Of course Wenger can be criticised... I think most of us have criticised him, especially recently. There are some however who just want him to be sacked and are looking for anything to justify that opinion and that's hardly constructive. Criticise the man? Sure... but to lash out at him and everything he does is a different thing entirely.

So it's not a case of fearing opposite opinions... it's how those opinions are put forward and what their apparent motivation is. Lashing out comes across as dim-witted - hence the contempt aimed in the direction of those that do it.

I'm not lashing out at everything he does or calling for him to be sacked. I still think he's the only man who can successfully manage this club, but he needs an objective voice to talk to and he can't be immune from criticism either...

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bergkamp

bergkamp

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I don't really care what some have to say... but I do think AW may resign in the summer.

Of course, should that happen, the moaners will moan about who we get in to replace him, or moan when the replacement can't get us into the CL positions in his first season. Joke supporters.

I can't see him resigning. He always sees out his contracts. If we do not finish in the top 4 though, There needs to be a busy summer from Wenger and the board to come up with a strategy thats gonna get us back competing. Plus some investment.

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Candre168

Candre168

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Posted
Read my post again. I clearly wasn't including you in the group of people who are lashing out and I clearly said he isn't immune to criticism as well.

Fair enough. Ultimately we all (Most of us) want what is best for the club. I obviously don't want us to become like some Blackburn fans who want their team to lose so they have an excuse to lash out at their manage. But on the other hand, some 'tweaks' have to made in how the club works.

I also hope he doesn't resign in the summer.

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